Valkyr Prime design lore discussion

[Yrveth]

1 minute ago, arch111 said:

Is it not strange how he pleaded with Margulis, watched her die, and immediately after that he sent the would be sentients to Tau? Is it not stranger still to keep talking to her after she is dead? If he really was cold and cruel and selfish, is this not a contradiction?

This is an old & ongoing argument but if the Sentients were meant to build the solar rail to Tau, then the Archimedian executed in the beginning of Crewman can not be Margulis, who lived to meet the Tenno, altered by the Void in an accident involving the already built rail. Unless that's another piece of lore we're meant to take as unreliable narrator to be rewritten at a later date.

At any rate, how does sending the Sentients to Tau prove the sincerity of his feelings in this scenario?

His words directed at Margulis, "pleading" with her to change her stance, are about as sincere as his act before his fellow Executors depicted in Crewman. He no more cared about her life than he cared about the integrity of the law when he urged for the execution of Perintol. His words are empty, regardless of whether they were directed at Margulis prior to her death or after. 

[arch111]

3 hours ago, Belgard said:

This is an old & ongoing argument but if the Sentients were meant to build the solar rail to Tau, then the Archimedian executed in the beginning of Crewman can not be Margulis, who lived to meet the Tenno, altered by the Void in an accident involving the already built rail. Unless that's another piece of lore we're meant to take as unreliable narrator to be rewritten at a later date.

At any rate, how does sending the Sentients to Tau prove the sincerity of his feelings in this scenario?

His words directed at Margulis, "pleading" with her to change her stance, are about as sincere as his act before his fellow Executors depicted in Crewman. He no more cared about her life than he cared about the integrity of the law when he urged for the execution of Perintol. His words are empty, regardless of whether they were directed at Margulis prior to her death or after. 

You just pinpointed Warframes biggest problem: the Timeline. We haven't got one.

Considering the Void was a last resort, and that the Plan had been all about getting to a new home, there is a logical snag with the Void Era.

Ember Prime tell us of the Zarimans return from the Fold. We know colonists were leaving for Tau, Zariman 10-0 one of those ships. We know the Void was a new thing,  not yet explored.

The war started when the rail was constructed and the other plans had failed. Including the Crewman. It was the machines that rebelled from Tau.

They were made with a Flaw to the Void. But that Flaw could only have been realised AFTER the Zariman accident. Why? Because at the time of the Zariman,  the Void was an unknown.

Therefore, the Zariman tried to jump to Tau without the Rail. They tried but failed. The Plan came up with the Starfish instead.

If Margulis died before the Taurail was built, the Warframes were built long before the war. At least the first ones. The actual Primes was a war-effort made by Ballas much later.

The Tenno were placed in the Second Dream to be controlled, and to limit their power.

There seem to be a timeparadox in there somewhere, otherwise it feels like the rail to Tau was built in a very short time.

If the Zariman happened when the rail was built, that means the colonists left and started living there. The children were locked away at Lua untill Transferance happened - margulis made surrogates.

War starts. Margulis makes warframes for the Orokin. Orokin gets mad at her, she calls them rotten and she dies.

Ballas start building warframes like no tomorrow against the enemy he helped to create.

The war is LOOONG and the Tenno grow and expand. Lotus show up and it turns out the Flaw was not so great after all.

- It is however possible that the Sentients was a result of the Zarimans return, what was brought back on that ship. If that was the case, and that was the birth of the Orokin as well, the Timeline flows very differently.

Gah. My brain hurts now. I hope the next quest clearls this up more. 

My apologies for going on like this.

 

[Yrveth]

7 hours ago, arch111 said:

They were made with a Flaw to the Void. But that Flaw could only have been realised AFTER the Zariman accident. Why? Because at the time of the Zariman,  the Void was an unknown.

Well we don't know that. I am not sure what you are implying, that before the rail was built, ships were jumping through some naturally occurring Void anomalies? Even if so, there must have been enough knowledge of the nature of the Void to put those to use.

Speaking of the Ember codex, with each new revelation about the Zariman 10-0, it becomes more and more clear that it is not the same ship as Kaleen's Zariman. TSD revealed they had different purposes and had been missing for different lengths of time. Now TWW gave us details of death and destruction aboard the 10-0, but Kaleen reported the Zariman was as if it had never left. Either the entirety of that codex is to be rewritten, or those are two separate incidents.

Anyway this is going way off-topic. I blame Ballas.

[OtakuPizza]

simple option 

Run a Event Where alad V gets hold of a bunch of valkyr primes 

then you start a quest basically a counter for the event that way De decides if Alad or NEf ( gifts us credits or some fusion cores or what not ) wins.

so platform for a counter is up . 

so if alad wins Prime get a rework based on lore and if Nef wins too bad no rework but wth everyone's happy.

[arch111]

5 minutes ago, OtakuPizza said:

simple option 

Run a Event Where alad V gets hold of a bunch of valkyr primes 

then you start a quest basically a counter for the event that way De decides if Alad or NEf ( gifts us credits or some fusion cores or what not ) wins.

so platform for a counter is up . 

so if alad wins Prime get a rework based on lore and if Nef wins too bad no rework but wth everyone's happy.

I agree with one thing. Valkyr Prime should have been a Quest Prime.

In a quest, hell even an alert, a story can be added and explored. Since Gradivus is History, most don't get how big it was.

We sacrificed colonies or sacrificed warframes. It was huge.

I think it would be best if Primes are perfected versions by the Orokin, after a proto was built. The vanilla are copies made from Prime Blueprints. 

The deluxes are separate series for specific purposes.

This enables Gersemi to be Tenno.

Prime was Orokin and the vanilla looked like an undamaged valkyr. Look at Valkyr Apex (Tennogen) for an example.

That vanilla is gone,  replaced by Alads version.

Gersemi existed before Valkyr, but was not the same model. So to conclude:

Alad made Zanuka from BOTH valkyr and Gersemi. The leftovers he tried to "Prime" and Gersemi was destroyed/turned into robodoge.

Gersemi is the one that should be REALLY angry.

[BeardBlade]

I really hope we get an actual answer for this from DE.

[(PSN)StyrofoamRock]

Initially I was not thrilled with the fact that Valkyr Prime looked more like Valkyr's base model as opposed to the Gersemi skin and how it didn't make much sense if you consider the lore however; I have come up with an idea that makes me like the look more and possibly fit the lore better. In the lore Valkyr Gersemi was what the normal Valkyr looked like before Alad V and his experiments and the base model is what was left of her after Alad had experimented on her and the added the restraints on her arms were to help keep her controlled. I decided to think of Valkyr Prime's restraints as the Orokins way to keep her in check (an idea which Alad V would later borrow), and her tail could have been docked by the Orokin. Gersemi was probably the point in which the Valkyr frame was most free from the restraints of the Orokin and being restrained again by the Courpus would definitely cause some rage.

That's how I decided to look at the new Valkyr Prime frame, I hope this can make everyone enjoy this frame regardless of whether or not you are Team Valkyr Gersemi or Team Valkyr Base.

I apologize for any mistakes I may have made.

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

So...

Prime -> Gersemi -> Corpus Valk?

[AzureTerra]

On 22/11/2016 at 5:49 AM, Slaviar said:

But isn't she wolverine?

(Yes, I know that wolverines have tails)

She has more in common with one than any kind of cat

[arch111]

6 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

So...

Prime -> Gersemi -> Corpus Valk?

I think

vanilla + corpus tech = corpus valkyr.

Vanilla + gersemi = Zanuka.

[AcceI]

How's that trailer coming along?  Do we get that for Christmas or something?

[SilentMobius]

Just to remind everyone:

• Nothing anywhere states that the Valkyr Warframe that Alad V experimented upon was a Gersemi
• All we know about the Gersemi Valkyr Warframe is that it predated the vivisected "vanilla" Valkyr
• We have no information as to where our Tenno found the Gersemi design
• Supposed colour similarities between Gersemi Valkyr and Zanuka are fan assumptions only.

All the supposed "Lore Problems" would be solved if Alad V had found a Valkyr Prime Warframe and had extracted the more valuable Orokin tech before performing his Zanuka-related experiments. The location of the Corpus restraints could simply be the location of "gaps" caused by extracting "prime" elements.

Edited December 1, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Stoner]

On 11/30/2016 at 8:30 PM, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

So...

Prime -> Gersemi -> Corpus Valk?

Yes, that SHOULD be. But it's not. 

[Stoner]

15 hours ago, AcceI said:

How's that trailer coming along?  Do we get that for Christmas or something?

I'm hoping very soon, it's been a while now. Maybe next week. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On November 28, 2016 at 1:17 PM, NightmareT12 said:

Ballas was Orokin. And Orokin were all monsters thanks to their so believed status of virtual godhood.

Love can do profound things...

[Mak_Gohae]

11 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Nothing anywhere states that the Valkyr Warframe that Alad V experimented upon was a Gersemi

Are the other Valkyrs running around that we dont know about?

And this is the description of the Ger skin,

Before Alad V, before the experiments, there was the Gersemi Valkyr.

11 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

We have no information as to where our Tenno found the Gersemi design

Why would we need this info? Warframes are traded all the time by the Corpus and Grineer. That's how she was probably found. The mechanic or getting them from bosses is really just gameplay stuff rather than lore.

11 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

All the supposed "Lore Problems" would be solved if Alad V had found a Valkyr Prime Warframe and had extracted the more valuable Orokin tech before performing his Zanuka-related experiments. The location of the Corpus restraints could simply be the location of "gaps" caused by extracting "prime" elements.

And how did he got prime BPs when no one but the tenno are able to jump into towers without being mind controlled?

For the longest we know that the Corpus deal in standard frames so way more easy to say they found a Gersemi than a prime Valk.

[arch111]

17 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

Just to remind everyone:

• Nothing anywhere states that the Valkyr Warframe that Alad V experimented upon was a Gersemi
• All we know about the Gersemi Valkyr Warframe is that it predated the vivisected "vanilla" Valkyr
• We have no information as to where our Tenno found the Gersemi design
• Supposed colour similarities between Gersemi Valkyr and Zanuka are fan assumptions only.

All the supposed "Lore Problems" would be solved if Alad V had found a Valkyr Prime Warframe and had extracted the more valuable Orokin tech before performing his Zanuka-related experiments. The location of the Corpus restraints could simply be the location of "gaps" caused by extracting "prime" elements.

This have me wondering what you mean.

Gersemi was a response to show Valkyrs true form. It's beyond arguing about at this point.

And let me ask you in all honesty why Valkyrs statue is holding Zanuka? 

And why the Prime has the text

Unscarred by time or malice.

Seems pretty straight forward. 

Edited December 2, 2016 by arch111
robodoge

[SilentMobius]

1 hour ago, arch111 said:

This have me wondering what you mean.

I thought I was fairly clear: Nothing states that the Warframe Alad-V captured was a Gersemi Valkyr

1 hour ago, arch111 said:

Gersemi was a response to show Valkyrs true form. It's beyond arguing about at this point.

Gersemi Valkyr is the Tenno version of Valkyr Prime, just like Rhino is the Tenno version of Rhino Prime. The flavour text for Gersemi stated that it existed before the vivisected "vanilla" Valkyr, nothing more.

1 hour ago, arch111 said:

And let me ask you in all honesty why Valkyrs statue is holding Zanuka? 

Because the vivisected "Vanilla" Valkyr (Probably actually a specific NPC Tenno but functionally the "story" Tenno-plus-Valkyr) has a massive grudge against Alad V and Zanuka.

1 hour ago, arch111 said:

And why the Prime has the text

Unscarred by time or malice.

Because any Valkyr Prime we build hasn't been experimented on... obviously. That doesn't mean that the Warframe that Alad-V originally found wasn't a prime. 

Remember: Regardless of how many Primes of each type existed during the Old War, now there are many Prime Warframes of each type, because our Tenno build them.

Just because the-valkyr-prime-my-tenno-built is literally "unscarred by time or malice" doesn't mean that the-warframe-alad-V-found wasn't a prime.

A Prime Warframe is not a singular entity, It's a class, a build-able item of "gear"

Edited December 2, 2016 by SilentMobius

[arch111]

52 minutes ago, SilentMobius said:

I thought I was fairly clear: Nothing states that the Warframe Alad-V captured was a Gersemi Valkyr

Gersemi Valkyr is the Tenno version of Valkyr Prime, just like Rhino is the Tenno version of Rhino Prime. The flavour text for Gersemi stated that it existed before the vivisected "vanilla" Valkyr, nothing more.

Because the vivisected "Vanilla" Valkyr (Probably actually a specific NPC Tenno but functionally the "story" Tenno-plus-Valkyr) has a massive grudge against Alad V and Zanuka.

Because any Valkyr Prime we build hasn't been experimented on... obviously. That doesn't mean that the Warframe that Alad-V originally found wasn't a prime. 

Remember: Regardless of how many Primes of each type existed during the Old War, now there are many Prime Warframes of each type, because our Tenno build them.

Just because the-valkyr-prime-my-tenno-built is literally "unscarred by time or malice" doesn't mean that the-warframe-alad-V-found wasn't a prime.

A Prime Warframe is not a singular entity, It's a class, a build-able item of "gear"

So. You conclude that Alad V found a cache of Valkyr Primes. And that he experimented on these to control it? Thus creating vanilla valkyr.

And that Zanuka is unrelated to Valkyr Prime. In fact that Gersemi and vanilla val have teal-color is pure coincidense.

You allso conclude Gersemi is our normal warframe. That means post-alad is a destroyed Prime.

The one problem with this is if you look at Excalibur, Rhino, Ember, Loki you can see their vanillaform in there. This brings us right back to this threads question. 

By that logic the vanilla valkyr should still look like Gersemi.

But you are saying Gersemi is Tenno made, correct? So the Tenno made a vanillaform radically different than the prime, adding a tail and wings and removing the armguards or just not bothering with those.

In the end we still have 3 warframes that have the same powers.

And gersemi still is unique in that it is a strict Tenno-warframe and the valkyr Alad left us with is a wrecked and ptsd Prime.

"Before Alad there was Gersemi."

Rings hollow if it had nothing to do with him, does it not?

At least this way future versions of wrecked Primes can happen, wich have some potential(grineer versions, Sentient,  Syndicates etc).

[SilentMobius]

4 hours ago, arch111 said:

So. You conclude that Alad V found a cache of Valkyr Primes. And that he experimented on these to control it? Thus creating vanilla valkyr.

I'm saying that if Alad V found a single Valkyr Prime then it would satisfy everything we currently know

4 hours ago, arch111 said:

And that Zanuka is unrelated to Valkyr Prime. In fact that Gersemi and vanilla val have teal-color is pure coincidense.

Nothing we currently know relates Zanuka directly to Valkyr at all, regardless of the existence of Valkyr Prime. All we know is that while developing Zanuka, many Warframes were torn apart to make it (Alad-V says this himself)

Nothing anywhere says that any part of the first Vanilla Valkyr went into a Zanuka. Everything on that topic is Fan-Headcanon

4 hours ago, arch111 said:

You allso conclude Gersemi is our normal warframe. That means post-alad is a destroyed Prime.

I'm not concluding anything. I'm saying that it fits everything we are explicitly told, thats all.

4 hours ago, arch111 said:

The one problem with this is if you look at Excalibur, Rhino, Ember, Loki you can see their vanillaform in there. This brings us right back to this threads question. 

...

But you are saying Gersemi is Tenno made, correct? So the Tenno made a vanillaform radically different than the prime, adding a tail and wings and removing the armguards or just not bothering with those.

If you can't see Gersemi in Valkyr Prime then you aren't looking very closely IMHO.

• Valkyr Prime has a docked tail, which is expanded in Gersemi
• Valkyr Prime shares the Hysteria claws energy effects with Gersemi not Vanilla Valkyr
• Valkyr Prime shares the "meat curtain" effect of her front dermal coating with Gersemi
• Nyx Prime has a huge gold "head cage" that is missing on the Tenno Nyx, Valkyr has golden arm-attachments that the Tenno Gersemi doesn't. I see perfectly reasonable parallels there.

 

4 hours ago, arch111 said:

"Before Alad there was Gersemi."

Rings hollow if it had nothing to do with him, does it not?

I think it's a statement of precedence, to illustrate that Gersemi existed previously and isn't some kind of "repaired" Vanilla Valkyr. There is no reason to require that statement to imply descent.

4 hours ago, arch111 said:

At least this way future versions of wrecked Primes can happen, wich have some potential(grineer versions, Sentient,  Syndicates etc).

Devstream 5

"The Warframes that you have normally are built by the Tenno and they, kinda, suit what the Tenno are and the primes are the Original designs from the Orokin Era"

That is what we have been told, that is the party line until it isn't.

 

Fundimentally the point is this:

DE have decided to build on the Vanilla Valkyr mesh for the Prime so that Tennogen and Immortal skins can still apply. We have not been given an in-game explanation yet, is there one that satisfies everythign that we have been told? yes there is, and that is that Vanilla Valkyr was once a Prime.

Maybe that's not what DE will go for, maybe they will just ignore it, but currently it's the only explanation that fits.

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by SilentMobius

[Stoner]

8 hours ago, SilentMobius said:

I thought I was fairly clear: Nothing states that the Warframe Alad-V captured was a Gersemi Valkyr

"Before Alad V, before the experiments, there was the Gersemi Valkyr."

The devs clearly said multiple times that this was the pre-corpus skin. No, nothing states directly that this was the frame Alad V captured. Not directly. But nothing states Gersemi wasn't the Valkyr Alad V captured either.

"Before Alad V, before the experiments, there was the Gersemi Valkyr." <= This here is the only piece of lore we have regarding the pre corpus skin, and it's safe to assume Alad experimented on the Gersemi, because it's the only lore we have. 

Also, from Devstream 53, "It's the pre-corpus captured Valkyr". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jz4DCz77xI&start=910&end=960

 

[arch111]

54 minutes ago, Stoner74 said:

"Before Alad V, before the experiments, there was the Gersemi Valkyr."

The devs clearly said multiple times that this was the pre-corpus skin. No, nothing states directly that this was the frame Alad V captured. Not directly. But nothing states Gersemi wasn't the Valkyr Alad V captured either.

"Before Alad V, before the experiments, there was the Gersemi Valkyr." <= This here is the only piece of lore we have regarding the pre corpus skin, and it's safe to assume Alad experimented on the Gersemi, because it's the only lore we have. 

Also, from Devstream 53, "It's the pre-corpus captured Valkyr". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jz4DCz77xI&start=910&end=960

 

Thank you so much for the link! 

[(PSN)Oddreign]

I think I have an answer as to why Valkyr Prime is the way she is.

Valkyr was shoved into the Void oven by DE and when she was done baking, they took her out and sold her for lots and lots of Money!

See? That lore is clear and simple :D in fact "Buy now" was the subliminal message embedded into the cheap Valkyr Prime trailer.

[Domesticon]

12 hours ago, arch111 said:

This have me wondering what you mean.

Gersemi was a response to show Valkyrs true form. It's beyond arguing about at this point.

And let me ask you in all honesty why Valkyrs statue is holding Zanuka? 

 

And why the Prime has the text

Unscarred by time or malice.

Seems pretty straight forward. 

Just going to say, that isn't Zanuka, Valkyr is holding a ripped apart Moa.

[arch111]

1 hour ago, Domesticon said:

Just going to say, that isn't Zanuka, Valkyr is holding a ripped apart Moa.

That's dissappointing.