Riven System is highly unrewarding and may lead to the downfall of warframe

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

Spirel knights had a way where you could add in thinks on to guns and stuff. you could keep old ones, but it took more CE to keep it (I think). Due to it i only ever rolled the 1 o 2 abilitys but you could get up to like 4, it jest would cost like 20 dollers and you usualy got S#&$. I feel like its the same here evne if it had a way to lock in stats. a max roll is S#&$, and incresing costs jest means I may not bother with them at all. stuff like this is why I left SK, but they had a lot more isshues.

[(PSN)Crackle2012]

Moving this to Feedback ---> General

[Mr._Clean]

On ‎11‎/‎20‎/‎2016 at 9:18 AM, Venom-Snake said:

No, not really. Its like Arcanes: They are there, you want it? Good, it will change things up a bit. You dont? Good, it wont change a thing.

This is another "X will/is runing the game and it will/is dead" thread that happens every once in a while. Normally after every Major Update.

Except Rivens have magnitudes more impact than Arcanes. So yeah, they do change things quite a bit. Also Arcanes don't have random stats. You get a specific arcane type and that's it, no rerolling the stats, no garbage stats. You either get an arcane that you use or don't use, no stat randomization beyond the arcane type.

Conversely Rivens are you get a Riven for a weapon you use or don't use and then you have stat RNG that make it godly, garbage or somewhere in between.

You're also guaranteed an Arcane after a Raid, you're not guaranteed a Riven after a Sortie.

Edited November 21, 2016 by Mr._Clean

[----_Hayden_Tenno_----]

i'd suggest this:

No more Trading of Riven mods that have been identified.

Let us lock stats we want to keep before we cycle(at the cost of extra kuva), less rng, less frustration.

also this:

56 minutes ago, Mr._Clean said:

You're also guaranteed an Arcane after a Raid, you're not guaranteed a Riven after a Sortie.

the cycling itself is a pain already.... this whole double rng on top if the rng's rng is a joke.... 

so we pray to rngesus to get:

1. riven mod from sorties

2. for the right weapon

3. with proper stats

4. proper values on those stats

 

DE is going full Trump with this... lets build dat grind wall... for real guys.... well played.

[Snowbluff]

I got 5 riven mods with pretty go rolls. I feel rewarded.

[xxfiurionxx]

Think the word "downfall" is kind of an exageration since it actually feels like the contrary ingame with a lot of players seeming to be coming back and actually being active.

Both the riven system and kuva system are still kinda new and fresh to the game, DE allrdy gave the first step on rivens but with time they are planing to come out with a system that improves / tweaks the new implemented systems overall. Be it x days with a no riven reward in sorties to "rng ness" of kuva events.

Having x kuva does not automatically entitles one to a "perfect" stat combination on ones riven mod :/

Forget "perfect" metas... Riven system is made to be luck wise, get a decent stat roll or two on your riven mod and from there with time and excess kuva try to guive it a spin or two in hopes of getting something that will enchance your prefered playstyle.

Other then that, trying to achive a perfect meta result seems to be  what is burning some folks :/

[KazeKarma]

22 minutes ago, xxfiurionxx said:

Both the riven system and kuva system are still kinda new and fresh to the game, DE allrdy gave the first step on rivens but with time they are planing to come out with a system that improves / tweaks the new implemented systems overall.

Remember the focus system? I don't really think they did much improvements on it except for like the first week. I dont think we should just sit quietly, cross our fingers and hope DE will improve it over time without us barking up the tree.

Edited November 22, 2016 by KazeKarma

[Arkvold]

23 hours ago, Arkvold said:

Looking at it from the outside, as someone who has not yet finished the War Within (yet I don't care about spoilers, I was spoiled by friends long before I returned to Warframe to see for myself)... Riven mods strike me as useless.

Play Sorties - already my second-least enjoyed form of gameplay, next to PVP.

Have a chance to get a Riven Mod.

It has a chance to be for a weapon I will actually want to use.

It has a minuscule chance of having the stats I would want and would find useful on that weapon.  This can be rerolled, but at ever-increasing cost, up to a point where it's no longer worth it to reroll it and it's better to scrap it to save space (because your Riven inventory is limited!) and hopefully refill that space with a Riven that's actually good.

And I have to unveil the mod by accomplishing some randomized, arbitrary challenge that may or may not be physically impossible before I can even see its stats and use it.

Oh and they're MR-locked behind an MR level that is determined entirely by arbitrary randomness, too.  So I might, (if I sacrifice enough goats to the right deity) get a Riven mod that has everything I want... but is unusable simply because my Mastery rank's high enough to get it but arbitrarily not high enough to use it.

Now assuming all of this works out in my favor (it won't - I know my luck), I still have to find a mod slot and sufficient capacity on a weapon that, more likely than not, I otherwise wouldn't use, likely haven't potato'd, and almost assuredly haven't forma'd.  If it doesn't, then I have to either reroll it (costing me an ever-increasing amount of Kuva and inviting a chance for the mod to get worse in the process), sell it (assuming it's good enough that someone will actually want it), or if neither of those are possible, delete it and hope the next one is better.

Hey, remember when I said this?

So okay, I finished the War Within!  And I got my first Riven mod.

I can't even unveil the thing.

Seriously, DE?

Level 30+ Interception mission, solo, with a hobbled dragon key, without dying or being downed.

Let's just set aside the not-dying part.

But how do I, realistically, complete an interception mission solo with a Hobbled Key on?!  Vauban or Atlas can only protect so much, and I can't easily move between points with a Hobbled key screwing with my mobility!

Solo Interceptions are hard enough, especially now that you can't cheese them with Volt's Overload due to its nerf into the current Discharge power.  Frost is already slow to begin with.

The only way I see this as even being possible is with Ash or Nova, and that's only if it's a Grineer mission.  Only these two have the ability to both teleport between capture points and deliver enough indiscriminate damage once they arrive to matter.

Needless to say, this is nuts to begin with.

Fantastic introduction to Riven mods there, DE - giving me one that's going to be a complete and utter dog to open up, and that's probably going to disappoint me when I do.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Arkvold

[MihariofMabinogi]

5 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Hey, remember when I said this?

So okay, I finished the War Within!  And I got my first Riven mod.

I can't even unveil the thing.

Seriously, DE?

Level 30+ Interception mission, solo, with a hobbled dragon key, without dying or being downed.

Let's just set aside the not-dying part.

But how do I, realistically, complete an interception mission solo with a Hobbled Key on?!  Vauban or Atlas can only protect so much, and I can't easily move between points with a Hobbled key screwing with my mobility!

Solo Interceptions are hard enough, especially now that you can't cheese them with Volt's Overload due to its nerf into the current Discharge power.  Frost is already slow to begin with.

The only way I see this as even being possible is with Ash or Nova, and that's only if it's not a Grineer mission.  Only these two have the ability to both teleport between capture points and deliver enough indiscriminate damage once they arrive to matter.

Needless to say, this is nuts to begin with.

Fantastic introduction to Riven mods there, DE - giving me one that's going to be a complete and utter dog to open up, and that's probably going to disappoint me when I do.

Seriously, I felt lucky when my riven mod from War Within was something less completely asinine than this. Even then? I got "get three head shots in a single aimglide"

 

And unless you're zephyr or someone who has every aimglide mod possible on your warframe, on top of having insane aim on a good enough gun? That ain't happening.

[Trittium00]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Nothing kills player motivation faster than the moment they realise the odds are stacked so unfavorably against them that they may as well not even try.

In the current iteration, this is Rivens in a nutshell. Layer upon layer of <5% chance RNG does not inspire your player base towards a goal.

[xxfiurionxx]

9 hours ago, KazeKarma said:

Remember the focus system? I don't really think they did much improvements on it except for like the first week. I dont think we should just sit quietly, cross our fingers and hope DE will improve it over time without us barking up the tree.

Yea, nothing to improve comes out of a "yes man" feedback but its just that if you watch their last dev stream (they adress the sortie one) and last reb post or something about riven mods they acknowleged kuva aquisition rng and were looking for some other way to tweak it.

[Snowbluff]

10 hours ago, Arkvold said:

Hey, remember when I said this?

So okay, I finished the War Within!  And I got my first Riven mod.

I can't even unveil the thing.

Seriously, DE?

Level 30+ Interception mission, solo, with a hobbled dragon key, without dying or being downed.

Let's just set aside the not-dying part.

But how do I, realistically, complete an interception mission solo with a Hobbled Key on?!  Vauban or Atlas can only protect so much, and I can't easily move between points with a Hobbled key screwing with my mobility!

Solo Interceptions are hard enough, especially now that you can't cheese them with Volt's Overload due to its nerf into the current Discharge power.  Frost is already slow to begin with.

The only way I see this as even being possible is with Ash or Nova, and that's only if it's a Grineer mission.  Only these two have the ability to both teleport between capture points and deliver enough indiscriminate damage once they arrive to matter.

Needless to say, this is nuts to begin with.

Fantastic introduction to Riven mods there, DE - giving me one that's going to be a complete and utter dog to open up, and that's probably going to disappoint me when I do.

This challenge isn't too hard. I think the Sedna interception is really easy, because the points aren't too far from each other and they focus C a whole lot (so you can camp there). If you bullet jump you can still get around as quickly as normal.

[rockscl]

im not reading this thread without pop corn

[Toran]

Most forget one thing (probably the best) about Riven Mods:
You can completely ignore them! Having no Riven Mod is no game-breaker - there is not a single content that makes Riven Mods a necessity.

I'm perfectly fine with the existing overpowered weapons. I don't need to top it off with a selected few old weapons impowered by extreme luck. I'm fine with having the biggest standard-noodles at hand.

If you think you need a even bigger, special noodle and noodle-extensions are costly to achieve, tough luck. Even tougher if you learn that you finally got the biggest noodle in the galaxy and doesn't fit your taste in play.

If I ever find a good noodle-extension by chance, nice. Meanwhile I just sell the crappy mods to whoever's longing for a bigger noodle.

Don't get me wrong: I agree that Riven Mods are the most horrible thing DE ever came up with and The War Within is the most disappointing big patch of all. But I don't think a neglectable show-off mod is the downfall of Warframe.

Dum spiro spero, maybe we get some new real content someday (like new multi-staged enemies, splitted team-tasks, clever AI, deeper lore etc.).

"In I trust."

[Trittium00]

42 minutes ago, Toran said:

You can completely ignore them! Having no Riven Mod is no game-breaker - there is not a single content that makes Riven Mods a necessity.

I've seen this argument a lot, and no matter how many times I hear it I don't see myself agreeing with it any more.

To be totally honest, I think a large part of the backlash over Riven mods was the excruciatingly long wait for TWW and after all that time, nearly a full year after the introduction of the focus system, people wanted something new and substantial to work towards.

And yet we got Riven mods - the Warframe equivalent to a slot machine. Put in some Kuva, pull the lever and see what you get. This does not equate to gameplay.

For something that a huge proportion of the player base waited close to a year for, to then just say "ignore them" frankly doesn't cut it.

One could even use the same argument with the entire Focus system - but you'd be laughed off the forums if you did. There's no content in the game that makes Focus necessary, and yet point me to a player that has finished The Second Dream and hasn't touched any Focus schools at all.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Trittium00

[BlackCoMerc]

On 11/20/2016 at 11:42 AM, --Q--Ascended-Seraphim said:

I farmed 100k worth of kuva and blew them on cycling mods to a maximum of 10 cycles each.

Some times you get 3 stats or the occasional 4. but most of the time you'll only get 2 stats. Pure luck. Didn't get anything particularly worthwhile from the grind.

There seriously is a need for players to lock in the stats that we want. Consistently rolling it over and over trying to strike the lottery feels like running headfirst into a wall hoping that the wall gives way before your skull breaks.

There is no sense of progression.

Only pure RNG. 

Which brings me to the next point.

You get random OP stats on rifles for now. Riven mods for Pistols, Melee, warframes, sentinels, pets will come soon enough. RNG and power creep galore.

And it's starting to feel like the Auction House in Diablo 3. Where it becomes more rewarding and efficient to gain top end gear through trading rather than actually playing the game and gaining progress.

 

 

The system is designed to generate a few very good mods, and tons of crap mods. In order to get players purchasing the few good ones with Plat. Which they have to buy for Cash.

In other words, this isnt a rewards system. Its a business model masquerading as in game rewards. Sort of like the Primes and Nitain. 

Warframe needs rewards that CANNOT be traded or otherwise purchased. Only then, will DE have incentive to make them interesting, rewarding and worth PLAYING THE GAME in order to obtain. 

After all, they keep increasing the grind (despite lies about intending to do the opposite) in hopes of retaining players longer...only to go on and grant players the ability to buy power now and get bored because they have nothing left to grind for. Its as nonsensical as...well, most everything else in the last 18 or so months. Perfect World influence, more than likely. This is what they DO.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

The first post I saw saying that this was the end of warframe was 3 years ago.

[Hypernaut1]

So basically people are mad that they didn't get the perfect Riven mods the first week it was released.

[Shockwave-]

On 11/20/2016 at 1:03 PM, achromos said:

How about people learn to deal with the occasional disappointment without being melodramatic?  Just because you aren't given EVERYTHING on day one, doesn't mean that the game is wrong it just means that these things are MEANT to take time and INVESTMENT.

 

Investment.  that's a dying word these days among gamers.

INvestment is one thing this is gambling. Your farmed kuva flushed away to make your mod worse, or with the recent patch, no better.

It's grind for zero.

Literally you can farm and farm and roll and roll until your mod is too high roll anymore and still have junk. In fact you will spend more time in rote kuva farming the same mission over and over than you EVER did in void farming. Remember when people hated doing the same mission over and over again because it took them 20-30 runs to get the prime part they wanted? Now it will take a 100 kuva runs and you STILL won't have a viable mod that you want.

[achromos]

40 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

INvestment is one thing this is gambling. Your farmed kuva flushed away to make your mod worse, or with the recent patch, no better.

It's grind for zero.

Literally you can farm and farm and roll and roll until your mod is too high roll anymore and still have junk. In fact you will spend more time in rote kuva farming the same mission over and over than you EVER did in void farming. Remember when people hated doing the same mission over and over again because it took them 20-30 runs to get the prime part they wanted? Now it will take a 100 kuva runs and you STILL won't have a viable mod that you want.

It might take someone a few runs, but people ARE getting good Riven mods, I actually rolled a pretty good one for my Zarr.  Did it take some time and investment?  Yes.  It is investment, it's investment in the resources you are using to roll stats.  Think of it like this.  Diablo 1, 2, 3 are quite successful, and they have even more RNG.

[Sahansral]

While the intent behind Riven mods (more variety, bringing older content on par) is good, the current implementation is still disheartening frustrating. I for myself decided to ignore this aspect of the game and I hope that rivened tonkors/simulors won't dull my gameplay too much.

DE, in case, you want to reignite players like me for rivens, rework them from the start, make each aspect of them customizable, let the player freely choose which stats they want for whatever weapon without any randomization or reroll-mechanic included. Fixed, nonvariable stat ranges and stat pools for different tiers of weapons. Give players a goal to work for. One that actually can be reached wihtin a reasonable timeframe, not one that's locked behind a 0.000001 % chance.

[Shockwave-]

17 minutes ago, achromos said:

It might take someone a few runs, but people ARE getting good Riven mods, I actually rolled a pretty good one for my Zarr.  Did it take some time and investment?  Yes.  It is investment, it's investment in the resources you are using to roll stats.  Think of it like this.  Diablo 1, 2, 3 are quite successful, and they have even more RNG.

And people had no trouble getting items from the void system, so I suppose it was fine too. I never had a single complaint about old void prime farming. But DE did apparently, and this is MORE of the exact same kind of no-reward grind. While YOU may have gotten a decent roll, many people have rolled 10-15 times and had to stop without getting a single good mod. Add to that 10 or more sorties to even get one.

There is reason this isn't the Diablo 3 forum. That argument would work perfectly on that forum, but is utterly lacking on this one.

[achromos]

48 minutes ago, Shockwave- said:

And people had no trouble getting items from the void system, so I suppose it was fine too. I never had a single complaint about old void prime farming. But DE did apparently, and this is MORE of the exact same kind of no-reward grind. While YOU may have gotten a decent roll, many people have rolled 10-15 times and had to stop without getting a single good mod. Add to that 10 or more sorties to even get one.

There is reason this isn't the Diablo 3 forum. That argument would work perfectly on that forum, but is utterly lacking on this one.

You don't 'need' to use it though Shockwave.  Your weapons can ALREADY one-shot things in the highest reasonable content.  This is just to give veterans something to do, this isn't something that you are meant to do in a single sitting/day.  If you do?  Great for you, if not, that's life.

[Shockwave-]

6 minutes ago, achromos said:

You don't 'need' to use it though Shockwave.  Your weapons can ALREADY one-shot things in the highest reasonable content.  This is just to give veterans something to do, this isn't something that you are meant to do in a single sitting/day.  If you do?  Great for you, if not, that's life.

Nice Straw man. Nobody said anything about single day, nobody said anything about what you are arguing about.

People didn't NEED to use Vauban Prime over Vauban. It was a tiny upgrade. But again. DE, not me. DE agreed that repeating missions over and over for a slim chance of reward was "too grindy" so THEY changed it to relics and took away the void.. I am simply pointing out that this the SAME thing. A small upgrade to what you already have, that isn't necessary to enjoy the game, but people want. If void farming was too grindy then Riven /kuva farming is MUCH too grindy and repetitive. How can you change one small simple RNG system to void relics and traces so players have some agency in getting what they want and less grind, then turn around and introduce a complex layered time-gated RNG system that is 10x worse in grind respects without reward than the void was?

If the argument of hey you don't NEED primes didn't work to keep old void around, then "you don't need NEED Rivens" shouldn't work to keep Riven mods around either.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Shockwave-

[Coaa]

4 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

The system is designed to generate a few very good mods, and tons of crap mods. In order to get players purchasing the few good ones with Plat. Which they have to buy for Cash.

In other words, this isnt a rewards system. Its a business model masquerading as in game rewards. Sort of like the Primes and Nitain. 

Warframe needs rewards that CANNOT be traded or otherwise purchased. Only then, will DE have incentive to make them interesting, rewarding and worth PLAYING THE GAME in order to obtain. 

After all, they keep increasing the grind (despite lies about intending to do the opposite) in hopes of retaining players longer...only to go on and grant players the ability to buy power now and get bored because they have nothing left to grind for. Its as nonsensical as...well, most everything else in the last 18 or so months. Perfect World influence, more than likely. This is what they DO.

Only the impatient ones. Like anything in the game, if someone WANTS IT - no NEEDS IT RIGHT NOW then yeah they will throw money/plat at it to get it right away. It's up to that player, even though there is 0 need in the games current state for a single riven mod to do anything UNLESS you use the system exactly how they intended it and want a riven for a terrible gun so you can use it for all of the games current content.

I have traded 3 mods that I didn't want for guns I didn't want them for to people for 3 mods I DID want for guns. I farmed kuva and in the course of 3 days (1 mod per day) I have achieved very solid rolls on each of these weapons rivens.

This system requires you to roll up your sleeves and put the effort in to get exactly what you want, or throw money at it otherwise. They aren't needed at all in the current game but make crap guns fun again. I have 0 sympathy for people who need them right this second and toss 1000s of plat at them realizing hey...my tonkor could do this before.