Riven System is highly unrewarding and may lead to the downfall of warframe

[Atalix]

Too right, that I had to make a forum for any help to unlock my Riven mod and now seeing someone else's being much worse. It's pretty ridiculous and specially how DE still has the RNG mentality.
I sure do hope to run into a Riven mod to bring more fun to my Stradavar, awesome weapon but it sucks in all direction.

[ZoneDymo]

" and may lead to the downfall of warframe "

And you want us to take you seriously....

[achromos]

11 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Nice Straw man. Nobody said anything about single day, nobody said anything about what you are arguing about.

People didn't NEED to use Vauban Prime over Vauban. It was a tiny upgrade. But again. DE, not me. DE agreed that repeating missions over and over for a slim chance of reward was "too grindy" so THEY changed it to relics and took away the void.. I am simply pointing out that this the SAME thing. A small upgrade to what you already have, that isn't necessary to enjoy the game, but people want. If void farming was too grindy then Riven /kuva farming is MUCH too grindy and repetitive. How can you change one small simple RNG system to void relics and traces so players have some agency in getting what they want and less grind, then turn around and introduce a complex layered time-gated RNG system that is 10x worse in grind respects without reward than the void was?

If the argument of hey you don't NEED primes didn't work to keep old void around, then "you don't need NEED Rivens" shouldn't work to keep Riven mods around either.

No, but it dosen't take a rocket scientist to know that you wouldn't have half the complaint about the RNG of getting them if they were strait up mods with set stats that you could get at the drop of a dime.

 

The issue is that yes, it's grindy. THIS GAME IS A GRIND.  Lol.  Let the people who want to grind, get their reward, if you don't like the system then wait for people in Trade chat to start selling Good Riven mods like the rest.

The argument stands, and the reason why they removed the void is because you were FORCED to one specific tileset, which didn't help with burnout and didn't help people see the other tilesets or nodes.  It wasn't because RNG or grind as a concept, where have you been lol.

My main point which you CANNOT refute because it is based off of fact and not opinion:

"Without Riven Mods, you as a player can STILL grab a Soma, Tonkor, Simulor, ect any Meta weapon.  You can still do that, and mod it out to the teeth with anything but Riven mods and steamroll Sorties."

The simple fact, taken from this statement is that you don't need Riven mods, if you don't like the system... Don't use it?  IF you want the mods, search trade chat, there are options open up to you that you aren't willing to take because you just don't like the grind apparently.  Could they make the grind easier though?  Yes.  Cap Riven costs after they get to a decent amount and make it so that it is more reliable to find Kuva Siphon spawns.

 

Also... Wanting doesn't equate to need, or a absolute requirement to given what you desire.  If it did, I could be a millionaire and have the iron man suit.  This is what bugs me about some gamers, that sense of entitlement.  Earn it, don't whine.

Edited November 23, 2016 by achromos

[GhostlightX]

Garbage system isn't it? Feels like the first idea that popped into some designer's head except instead of everyone at the table laughing it down like it deserved, they all stopped and went with it!!! LOL. I've been addicted to loot-based games since Diablo 2, and this is about the worst designed loot system I have ever encountered. Only Vermintide in its early days was worse, and the developer listened well to their customer base and fixed that system, thus saving the game completely. Because make no mistake, a bad loot system in a loot-based game (which WF has now become with the Rivens because it really wasn't before) will kill a game, guaranteed. Reward your players for playing a lot and playing well. DO NOT frustrate them with crap loot that is hard work to come by and totally RNG. Seriously, loot systems #101.

Edited November 23, 2016 by GhostlightX

[GhostlightX]

1 hour ago, achromos said:

Earn it, don't whine.

Players love to earn their rewards. All the best games ever use that model. It's a vitally important word in loot-based games. When it is total RNG however, there is no such thing as earn. THAT IS THE PROBLEM with Rivens. You could run 20 Sorties and come away with a single bad Riven mod for a Sentinel weapon. Then I could run a single Sortie and come away with a top drawer one for the Tonkor. Which of us actually earned a good mod? See the problem? You cannot actually earn these things in the traditional player-rewarding sense.

[achromos]

4 minutes ago, GhostlightX said:

Players love to earn their rewards. All the best games ever use that model. It's a vitally important word in loot-based games. When it is total RNG however, there is no such thing as earn. THAT IS THE PROBLEM with Rivens. You could run 20 Sorties and come away with a single bad Riven mod for a Sentinel weapon. Then I could run a single Sortie and come away with a top drawer one for the Tonkor. Which of us actually earned a good mod? See the problem? You cannot actually earn these things in the traditional player-rewarding sense.

That's RNG for you.  You still have to earn/work-for it, but the amount of earning goes with the persons luck.  You still put in the time for that single bad Riven mod.  You earned that mod by participating in the content.

Again, this is a huge difference in opinion which you are entitled to as much as I am.  I enjoy the borderlands feel, does the Riven mod system need to be refined?  Yes.  But not drastically though.

[GhostlightX]

1 hour ago, achromos said:

That's RNG for you.  You still have to earn/work-for it, but the amount of earning goes with the persons luck.  You still put in the time for that single bad Riven mod.  You earned that mod by participating in the content.

Except you can participate in the content and not even get a Riven mod (2000 endo, anyone?). Like I said, with this RNG nonsense, you can use any word you like for those who take part and hope for Riven mods; any word but "earn" that is.

For the record, I like the Borderland loot style - random numbers, random stats - it makes for some quirky and fun outcomes. But you know the ONE THING required for the Borderlands loot style to actually work? The fact that the loot drops in plentiful numbers and often. When you are showered with loot on a daily basis, the fact that 99% of it is trash is not and issue, in fact it's rather fun. When you have a slim chance once per day to get the loot, the fact that 99% of it is trash is real problem.

Edited November 23, 2016 by GhostlightX

[PanicPrime]

1 hour ago, achromos said:

I enjoy the borderlands feel, does the Riven mod system need to be refined?  Yes.  But not drastically though.

I enjoy the borderlands loot-chase as well. The difference there is that in Borderlands, you pick up 10+ weapons a day. Once you get to the "end game" you're still picking up 3 weapons a day that could potentially replace your main gun.

You might go a week of getting nothing but inferior product, but you'll get something new every time you play. The current system with Rivens took me exactly 10 sorties of receiving 2k endo in order to get my first riven since TWW reward. I eagerly cracked it open, only to find it was a sentinel weapon. 

Ten days of grinding a mission to "earn" what's essentially a booby prize is absolutely not in the same league as Borderlands, where "the next drop" is your motivation to keep playing, keep going, take it to the next stage.

Here, you log in, play your sortie, get either 2k endo, or FINALLY get a riven only to discover it's for a sentinel weapon, then log off in bitter disappointment. Why bother continuing? You can't get another one for 24 hours and there's literally no point in rerolling the one you have because nothing will make it good.

There's no sense of earning, no sense of achievement. It's a lottery and your only involvement is whether or not you choose to participate in today's single draw.

Edited November 23, 2016 by ChasePanic

[EinheriarJudith]

3 hours ago, GhostlightX said:

Garbage system isn't it? Feels like the first idea that popped into some designer's head except instead of everyone at the table laughing it down like it deserved, they all stopped and went with it!!! LOL. I've been addicted to loot-based games since Diablo 2, and this is about the worst designed loot system I have ever encountered. Only Vermintide in its early days was worse, and the developer listened well to their customer base and fixed that system, thus saving the game completely. Because make no mistake, a bad loot system in a loot-based game (which WF has now become with the Rivens because it really wasn't before) will kill a game, guaranteed. Reward your players for playing a lot and playing well. DO NOT frustrate them with crap loot that is hard work to come by and totally RNG. Seriously, loot systems #101.

you have never played the division which has imo the worst loot based system.

[CaptainEras]

On 20/11/2016 at 5:01 PM, bejuizb said:

Out of couriosity, are Riven mods that impactful? I'm asking because I don't really know the magnitude of power they give you over others. The only Riven mod I got, and plan to keep is one I got for the Attica, which makes it crit viable. I don't really see the need for another giant power spike for 90% of my gear because I already kill mobs extremely fast. Am I missing something here?

I'm with you, apart from doing as instructed for my one riven mod but not getting it unlocked, I can't be bothered with them. I'm killing at a very high level with the rigs I've created. I think battle method has more to do with success than power, power, and more power. You can make some bloody good mixes for a frame with what we already have had for some time so I'm not going chasing something I don't need just because DE want to throw something else into the mix.

Maybe all these things are necessary if one is into all the fillers, the deathmatch stuff, I'm not, the main game is all I'm interested in. There is plenty going on there with the syndicate stuff and the relic stuff.

[Shockwave-]

6 hours ago, achromos said:

The issue is that yes, it's grindy. THIS GAME IS A GRIND.  Lol.  Let the people who want to grind, get their reward, if you don't like the system then wait for people in Trade chat to start selling Good Riven mods like the rest.

 

I might as well not post, since you don't read it anyway. This argument you are making here is the SAME argument that was used about void farming. But DE said it was 'TOO GRINDY". Simply saying the game is about grind literally misses 100% of the entire post. I can use this exact line when talking about Vauban Prime. Let the people who wanted to grind void grind it and if not always trade chat... But once again (and I'll say it slower this time).... DE A G R E E D  T H A T  I T  W A S  T O O  M U C H  G R I N D.

6 hours ago, achromos said:

The argument stands,

No, It Doesn't

6 hours ago, achromos said:

and the reason why they removed the void is because you were FORCED to one specific tileset,

Incorrect. This was part of it, but doesn't explain traces. Primes are MUCH easier to get with relics. Vauban Prime.... 3-4 days to get a full set, Same level of effort on Nekros Prime.... day 1. Same with Valkyr. Prime farming got easier, thus the reduced costs in trade chat. Traces and relics have nothing to do with tilesets. Keys could have been made relics that work the same as they did in void but on any fissure. The system was changed to add some level of "agency" to the grind, per DE, so you could more easily target the prime parts you wanted.

 

6 hours ago, achromos said:

My main point which you CANNOT refute because it is based off of fact and not opinion:

"Without Riven Mods, you as a player can STILL grab a Soma, Tonkor, Simulor, ect any Meta weapon.  You can still do that, and mod it out to the teeth with anything but Riven mods and steamroll Sorties."

The simple fact, taken from this statement is that you don't need Riven mods, if you don't like the system... Don't use it? 

.Certainly I refute this. If you read my post and comprehended it at all, I already did refute this. You don't need Primes either. According to your words here the latest prime is not necessary.  But DE changed the RNG grind that was too much RNG, to a trace system to add agency, because it was too much RNG, and too much same tileset over and over. Rivens are more RNG, and the same three tilesets over and over to get Kuva.

Adding content to the game is for players to go after. You don't need anything in the game past a non prime excal a few mods and a tonkor. After that anything else is optional according to your statement. This argument is patently ridiculous. The entire point of WF, since there is no endgame is to get everything. to collect. to get the next prime gear, etc. If that is the way you play the game, as a collector, then the point of the game is to get Riven mods.

DE has assigned no "point" to the game. No endgame. So they must consider some people play the game for this reason. In fact we KNOW they do (Prime access). You can try to ignore this to make your point work, but it doesn't.

 

Edited November 23, 2016 by Shockwave-

[Skaleek]

I would like to see the reroll cost increase removed entirely, and the riven cap removed. I'd be okay with the system in the case of the 2 aforementioned changes.

[xXDeadsinxX]

Why not just get rid of this whole riven mod system and do damage 3.0...

[Toran]

23 hours ago, Trittium00 said:

One could even use the same argument with the entire Focus system

The entire focus system? ; )

I wouldn't compare it with the focus system at all. You can do your focus on the fly, you can work towards a specific focus build. Some of the stuff is very nice to have and in contrast to Riven Mods you don't have to invest days of work or platinum and do the bloody Sedna Ruskala treadmill over and over for some kuva - and all with a very uncertain result.

Unless you're very fond of Rhino, ignore the slot-machine till they rework this piece of utter crap.

"In I trust."

[marelooke]

1 hour ago, CaptainEras said:

I'm with you, apart from doing as instructed for my one riven mod but not getting it unlocked, I can't be bothered with them. I'm killing at a very high level with the rigs I've created. I think battle method has more to do with success than power, power, and more power. You can make some bloody good mixes for a frame with what we already have had for some time so I'm not going chasing something I don't need just because DE want to throw something else into the mix.

Maybe all these things are necessary if one is into all the fillers, the deathmatch stuff, I'm not, the main game is all I'm interested in. There is plenty going on there with the syndicate stuff and the relic stuff.

That might be the case *now*, but it's not unlikely that what is optional now will become mandatory later, where "later" could well be sooner than one might think.

Anyway, I expect people to become tired of this slot machine rather quickly and then there will be very little of the mechanics introduced by TWW left... It *needs* a rework or it'll just go the way of the "raids" in the end.

Edited November 23, 2016 by marelooke

[CaptainEras]

2 minutes ago, marelooke said:

That might be the case *now*, but it's not unlikely that what is optional now will become mandatory later, where "later" could well be sooner than one might think.

Anyway, I expect people to become tired of this slot machine rather quickly and then there will be very little of the mechanics introduced by TWW left... It *needs* a rework or it'll just go the way of the "raids" in the end.

Your a Grand Master so like me have soaked up everything which has come our way over the past 3+ years and got on with it. We've heard all the doom and gloom before, lost stuff we liked, accepted stuff we don't like, and go into battle on a regular basis with what we have cobbled together.

As for TWW. It was a necessary challenge to overcome and has given us the Fortress as something new to explore. Not finding a lot of squads so I'm beginning to suspect that there are a lot who have not cracked TWW quest ?

[Toran]

3 minutes ago, marelooke said:

That might be the case *now*, but it's not unlikely that what is optional now will become mandatory later, where "later" could well be sooner than one might think.

Anyway, I expect people to become tired of this slot machine rather quickly and then there will be very little of the mechanics introduced by TWW left... It *needs* a rework or it'll just go the way of the "raids" in the end.

You don't seriously believe that, do you? DE are no mad men. If Riven Mods (as they work now) would become mandatory at some point, most guys would simply stop playing Warframe (including me, after thousands of hours).

I agree with the second part though (never played a single raid round).

[CaptainEras]

2 minutes ago, Toran said:

You don't seriously believe that, do you? DE are no mad men. If Riven Mods (as they work now) would become mandatory at some point, most guys would simply stop playing Warframe (including me, after thousands of hours).

I agree with the second part though (never played a single raid round).

Don't remember 'raid' and as for riven mods. My one riven for completing TTW said take a bleeding dragon key and do a survival mission above level 30 without killing anyone. Did that and my mod remained closed. Can't be bothered to send a ticket as I'm not interested in the riven mods.

[GhostlightX]

44 minutes ago, Toran said:

You don't seriously believe that, do you? DE are no mad men. If Riven Mods (as they work now) would become mandatory at some point, most guys would simply stop playing Warframe (including me, after thousands of hours).

They are already mandatory. The moment they were released they became mandatory. Not for any gameplay reason, but because they simply are. They are the latest content. The new kid on the block. The shiny thing. Everybody wants a good one. Even though you absolutely do not need them, not having a decent one means you are somehow lesser than players who have one (in your eyes, not theirs). That's mandatory in my book. It is naïve to think that because these things are technically not needed, that demand for them will therefore be curtailed.

And the RNG drop rate plus the RNG nature of whether they suck when they do drop has already made people with thousands of hours quit. DE are mad men. They have added a looting system that is extremely similar in design to systems that were proven to have killed or almost killed other games - and I am talking about games that had bigger player bases than Warframe.

Edited November 23, 2016 by GhostlightX

[GhostlightX]

26 minutes ago, Toran said:

[removed by moderator]

I agree with you on this but only because I'm at the stage of the game where 2k Endo is a big deal to me and most welcome as a Sortie reward. I can totally see where the players who want nothing other than Rivens - simply because they have everything else already - are coming from.

Edited November 23, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed quoted comment

[IMMentat]

Hate the riven mod system as it exists and I hope it dies in a fire. it rewards statistically superior equipment with insane boosts and does NOTHING for older and or weaker weapons. It is an RNG/paywall race to the soma/dread mods so people can sell them for a ridiculous amount of plat.

[CaptainEras]

2 hours ago, GhostlightX said:

They are already mandatory. The moment they were released they became mandatory. Not for any gameplay reason, but because they simply are. They are the latest content. The new kid on the block. The shiny thing. Everybody wants a good one. Even though you absolutely do not need them, not having a decent one means you are somehow lesser than players who have one (in your eyes, not theirs). That's mandatory in my book. It is naïve to think that because these things are technically not needed, that demand for them will therefore be curtailed.

And the RNG drop rate plus the RNG nature of whether they suck when they do drop has already made people with thousands of hours quit. DE are mad men. They have added a looting system that is extremely similar in design to systems that were proven to have killed or almost killed other games - and I am talking about games that had bigger player bases than Warframe.

Totally disagree, kidding, I see where you are coming from. Do you think everybody wants every mod in the game ? Some anoraks will but after 3+ years I have about half the mods available and never bother to go seeking ones I don't have. I'm knocking the door of MR21, can survive 'survival' and other missions way beyond the levels most give up, because there are many ways to skin a cat.

I do agree with you about the average gamer mentality, never ceases to make me wonder why they are gamers. Doesn't matter the game, they approach all of them as if they hate the game because it causes them to have this manic approach of having to go at it 19 to the dozen to rattle out every challenge like yesterday, and are complete failures if they don't have what someone else has, and when all the rubbish is piled up they don't give it a second thought as they move on to the next big thing.

I run a gaming site with 3 other guys and call this, "The Churn Rate", as I observe this phenomenon of the gaming world, lol . . .

I created the path for success in the TWW quest by creating a plan derived from many sources of information, a plan which suited me. I do the same with any game. However, what I see from the forum are people being led by DE, as if they don't have the imagination to take what is on offer and fashion their own experience from it, create their own game around the pieces they do actually enjoy instead of thinking they have to HAVE it all just because it's there.

Edited November 23, 2016 by CaptainEras

[kuchn]

On 11/20/2016 at 7:35 PM, Ailissa said:

 

On 11/20/2016 at 5:55 PM, ChasePanic said:

 I knew the game was about to enter its final year.

Not even close,

 

check steamcharts, accept that these numbers are representative (i mean average players), draw a graph and get familiar with the product life cycle concept
add to this the impact on platsales/marketing multiple changes had in the past and get familiar with the business term "milking" (which is not offensive)...

it is a bit premature to draw fatalistic conclusions but it does by far not seem as unlikely as you might wish it to
 

 

[CaptainEras]

44 minutes ago, kuchn said:

check steamcharts, accept that these numbers are representative (i mean average players), draw a graph and get familiar with the product life cycle concept
add to this the impact on platsales/marketing multiple changes had in the past and get familiar with the business term "milking" (which is not offensive)...

it is a bit premature to draw fatalistic conclusions but it does by far not seem as unlikely as you might wish it to
 

 

I believe DE are looking at, at least 3-4 more years. They have a player base of over 2 million.

This is a microtransaction game so of course there will be some 'milking', that is the income to keep the whole thing going. Like most microtransaction games there will be a core amount of money suppliers [me included] who spend hundreds of pounds on the game and I don't even 'pay-to-win' as I've forged over 90% of my gear.

I have played this game virtually every day for over 3 years. Not to get value for money but simply because I never get fed up playing it, and there are many like me.

Edited November 23, 2016 by CaptainEras

[achromos]

12 hours ago, GhostlightX said:

Except you can participate in the content and not even get a Riven mod (2000 endo, anyone?). Like I said, with this RNG nonsense, you can use any word you like for those who take part and hope for Riven mods; any word but "earn" that is.

For the record, I like the Borderland loot style - random numbers, random stats - it makes for some quirky and fun outcomes. But you know the ONE THING required for the Borderlands loot style to actually work? The fact that the loot drops in plentiful numbers and often. When you are showered with loot on a daily basis, the fact that 99% of it is trash is not and issue, in fact it's rather fun. When you have a slim chance once per day to get the loot, the fact that 99% of it is trash is real problem.

I never said the Riven mod system was perfect, I already made a suggestion to where you could take 2000 endo and 1000 kuva and once a day or maybe three if they want to keep the rarity up... 'craft' a Riven mod.  So, I already see this issue, trust me.  I went several days in a row just getting junk out of Sorties, most of the time 2,000 endo.

 

12 hours ago, ChasePanic said:

I enjoy the borderlands loot-chase as well. The difference there is that in Borderlands, you pick up 10+ weapons a day. Once you get to the "end game" you're still picking up 3 weapons a day that could potentially replace your main gun.

You might go a week of getting nothing but inferior product, but you'll get something new every time you play. The current system with Rivens took me exactly 10 sorties of receiving 2k endo in order to get my first riven since TWW reward. I eagerly cracked it open, only to find it was a sentinel weapon. 

Ten days of grinding a mission to "earn" what's essentially a booby prize is absolutely not in the same league as Borderlands, where "the next drop" is your motivation to keep playing, keep going, take it to the next stage.

Here, you log in, play your sortie, get either 2k endo, or FINALLY get a riven only to discover it's for a sentinel weapon, then log off in bitter disappointment. Why bother continuing? You can't get another one for 24 hours and there's literally no point in rerolling the one you have because nothing will make it good.

There's no sense of earning, no sense of achievement. It's a lottery and your only involvement is whether or not you choose to participate in today's single draw.

"I never said the Riven mod system was perfect, I already made a suggestion to where you could take 2000 endo and 1000 kuva and once a day or maybe three if they want to keep the rarity up... 'craft' a Riven mod.  So, I already see this issue, trust me.  I went several days in a row just getting junk out of Sorties, most of the time 2,000 endo."  I do agree that we need to be able to at least get our foots in the door.

9 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

I might as well not post, since you don't read it anyway. This argument you are making here is the SAME argument that was used about void farming. But DE said it was 'TOO GRINDY". Simply saying the game is about grind literally misses 100% of the entire post. I can use this exact line when talking about Vauban Prime. Let the people who wanted to grind void grind it and if not always trade chat... But once again (and I'll say it slower this time).... DE A G R E E D  T H A T  I T  W A S  T O O  M U C H  G R I N D.

No, It Doesn't

Incorrect. This was part of it, but doesn't explain traces. Primes are MUCH easier to get with relics. Vauban Prime.... 3-4 days to get a full set, Same level of effort on Nekros Prime.... day 1. Same with Valkyr. Prime farming got easier, thus the reduced costs in trade chat. Traces and relics have nothing to do with tilesets. Keys could have been made relics that work the same as they did in void but on any fissure. The system was changed to add some level of "agency" to the grind, per DE, so you could more easily target the prime parts you wanted.

 

.Certainly I refute this. If you read my post and comprehended it at all, I already did refute this. You don't need Primes either. According to your words here the latest prime is not necessary.  But DE changed the RNG grind that was too much RNG, to a trace system to add agency, because it was too much RNG, and too much same tileset over and over. Rivens are more RNG, and the same three tilesets over and over to get Kuva.

Adding content to the game is for players to go after. You don't need anything in the game past a non prime excal a few mods and a tonkor. After that anything else is optional according to your statement. This argument is patently ridiculous. The entire point of WF, since there is no endgame is to get everything. to collect. to get the next prime gear, etc. If that is the way you play the game, as a collector, then the point of the game is to get Riven mods.

DE has assigned no "point" to the game. No endgame. So they must consider some people play the game for this reason. In fact we KNOW they do (Prime access). You can try to ignore this to make your point work, but it doesn't.

 

The main issue, separating you and me is that I loved Void Farming and you hated it I'll bet.  I only hated it when I had the misfortune to Team up with brain surgeons who wanted to stick to the sewers or trivialize the content.  What DE said about their removal of the void system wasn't specifically about the grind.  They changed it because people were getting BURNT OUT on the same tilesets, because people never really went out to see the other tilesets and ignored them for 90% of their gameplay after they cleared the starchart.  DE is NEVER going to do away with the grind, because this is the main premise behind the game.  Dress it up and make it more intuitive?  Sure.  Get rid of it?  No.  If they wanted to get rid of the grind (and not the monotonoy of Void Survival and Void Defense and Void, Void, Void, Void) they would have made it so you could pin-point which Prime drop you want to get from your relic.  But they didn't do that did they?  Open your eyes and quit trying to confirm your own opinions lol.

Like i said, they made it more intuitive too, giving people a little bit of a better chance if you make your Relic into a Radiant.  The funny part about "Vauban Parts" is that I had went through 5 Radiants to get the Blueprint for a friend, still don't have it.  The grind is STILL there, RNGesus hasn't gone lol.

 

You aren't comprehending my point and you are just raving at me now and re-spewing your rhetoric which "Dosen't work" on me.  Read, dude.

Edited November 24, 2016 by achromos