Ash rework discussion: I am scared

[Zerathos_Dagon]

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree and endorse that Ash needs a rework, badly. He's among the least teamplay-friendly Warframes, and together with Simulor/Tonkor-Mirage he manages to make the content of Warframe boring and frustrating for all other players.

That said though, I also don't believe making Ash's ultimate a 'mark-and-execute' ability will be a good idea either. This is for the same reason I don't think single-target abilities are very good in Warframe. Warframe is a fast-pased and very mobile game with a lot of mobs... This means that single target abilities are just way too clunky and slow to be of much use to us. I am afraid Ash's new ultimate, if that 'mark-and-execute' ability will be the one it's reworked into, will most likely fall into this category, effectively moving Ash from his overpowered state into the other extreme end of being in an unuseable state. Because if you take away his ultimate, he basically becomes a worse version of Loki if you ask me.

So, in short, I say let's see how it works out, because Ash damn well needs the rework. But I hope DE realized what I just said and have come up with a fix for it.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Zerathos_Dagon

[EmptyDevil]

2 minutes ago, The-Tective said:

Smoke Screen + Teleport + Covert Lethality = One hit any enemy in the game, that is not flying and survive for a long (Killing faster then any Loki with any wapon in higher lvl and you have the same survivability).

Smoke Screen+reworked Blade Storm = again better dmg then any weapon in high lvl and greater survivability than Loki.

Show me a weapon that can deal more dmg then Blade Storm and i would use it all the time while playing my Loki.

 

[Sar.K.Asmus]

Just now, CTanGod said:

Any melee weapon with Maiming strike + Blood Rush and Radial Blind, your move. xD

Excalibur uses Invisibility? That's new for me.

Loki uses Radial Blind? That's new for me aswell.

[CTanGod]

Just now, The-Tective said:

Excalibur uses Invisibility? That's new for me.

Loki uses Radial Blind? That's new for me aswell.

They can't see you if they're blind, it's also one of if not the best CC in the game and allows for finishers, can be cast while moving so you can avoid damage, makes melee weapons deal insane damage (because blind enemies are considered unaware and thus suffer from the stealth multiplier, did I mention that state lasts for the entire duration of the blind?) and costs very little. Hell with an Orthos P with a Maiming Strike build and Radial Blind 30k red crit spins should be the norm.

So yes overall Radial Blind is both CC, dmg and Stealth. If you worry about being killed before you blind just Slash Dash into a safe spot and blind em or use Slash Dash to tank things since Slash Dash makes your HP invulnerable.

[Isochronic]

2 minutes ago, The-Tective said:

Smoke Screen + Teleport + Covert Lethality = One hit any enemy in the game, that is not flying and survive for a long (Killing faster then any Loki with any wapon in higher lvl and you have the same survivability).

Smoke Screen+reworked Blade Storm = again better dmg then any weapon in high lvl and the same survivability as Loki.

Show me a weapon that can deal more dmg then Blade Storm and i would use it all the time while playing my Loki.

I can just go Loki with covert lethality and then I won't have to deal with broken teleport animation (which can not activate finisher animation, but can possibly alarm your enemies if you move for 1cm. I tried to go stealth Ash. I really did) 9 out of 10 times. Like, and have my non-alarming stealth, better speed and wont have to violently shake my mouse for a chance to kill somebody for 10 (if I'm using stealth) energy per HIT.

Like, Loki's invisibility energy cost < Ash's smoke screen+teleport or smoke screen+bs energy cost.

Also, I'm wondering if all those guys complaining about Ash stealing their kills (and I've met plenty of them, probably crying because their epeen got shorter) will now start saying something about Mirage + simulor combo stealing their kills? Because this is not the way to deal with "lazyness" and "bringing OP" stuff. Like, there are tons of OP variations in this game (Nova + 4 + 2 + shoot 2 with tigris = instakill of all map). Are they gonna nerf them all too?

[CTanGod]

3 minutes ago, A.Rosen said:

I can just go Loki with covert lethality and then I won't have to deal with broken teleport animation (which can not activate finisher animation, but can possibly alarm your enemies if you move for 1cm. I tried to go stealth Ash. I really did) 9 out of 10 times. Like, and have my non-alarming stealth, better speed and wont have to violently shake my mouse for a chance to kill somebody for 10 (if I'm using stealth) energy per HIT.

Like, Loki's invisibility energy cost < Ash's smoke screen+teleport or smoke screen+bs energy cost.

Also, I'm wondering if all those guys complaining about Ash stealing their kills (and I've met plenty of them, probably crying because their epeen got shorter) will now start saying something about Mirage + simulor combo stealing their kills? Because this is not the way to deal with "lazyness" and "bringing OP" stuff. Like, there are tons of OP variations in this game (Nova + 4 + 2 + shoot 2 with tigris = instakill of all map). Are they gonna nerf them all too?

DE will have to nerf that too just to stop the QQ, then the QQ will target CC abilities and those will get nerfed too then the game will go to hell because it will be no fun anymore.

Meanwhile I still want separate finisher prompts so I can actually melee enemies with combos after I Radial Blinded them :( .

Edited November 25, 2016 by CTanGod

[EmptyDevil]

1 minute ago, Cubewano said:

You don't have to stop moving for Loki either, glide man glide

Loki has to be shoehorned into an aim glide to use his while moving, Ash does not. What was the point of that?

3 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

I don't think I've ever found the stagger on Ash's smokescreen to ever be actually useful, especially not at the cost of its low duration.

Other people do find it useful.

3 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

 Also not clear on what the purpose was for that last comment, do you think that meek 5 energy saved per mark on a short duration ability that you might have to cast a few times during makes it better than Loki's radial disarm? 

First, you don't know how much energy it saves you. Second, don't build Ash to have low Power Duration(Typical Blade Storm build). Third, Blade Storm's energy cost was reduced in the rework last i heard. So what that point illustrates is that Ash has synergy within his powers as well and his energy economy is arguably better. He doesn't have a ridiculous cast time on any of his abilities either, that require a mod like natural talent(Radial disarm).

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

In any case we will still be waiting as Ash players take 10 seconds to toothpick a ancient to death.

[Pendragon1951]

Without even to have to use the new Bladestorm my main concern is the number of steps you have to go through just to use it, for example best case scenario, is a defense where your, in theory, not moving so much, so lets say your target three enemies, so what before was a two step process, now becomes a five step process, lets walk it through, step one, press 4, step two target number one, step three target number two, step four target number three and finally step five press four to kill three targets. Where before you target press 4 and he kills many more targets. Not only is it a bad quality of life change it also may lower the number of targets you can kill at a time.  I'll test it more when the update happens and come back but my initial opinion right now it was a change that only make using Bladestorm more tedious.  

[Isochronic]

5 minutes ago, CTanGod said:

DE will have to nerf that too just to stop the QQ, then the QQ will target CC abilities and those will get nerfed too then the game will go to hell because it will be no fun anymore.

That was my point. I mean, if I wanted some serious tactics, I'd go back to mmo (actual mmo, not 4-player shooter) and do raids again, but I had my 8-years share of them. Warframe, if I'm not wrong, is mostly about action. And we already have 2 frames for pure stealth, Ivara and Loki, and they're pretty good at it. And while Ivara and Loki have their good points, I can see none in stealth Ash while comparing him with others. They're trying to fit op-ish (I admit it) mostly open-action frame into the stealth party. 

Their first idea of rework was great when they told about it - just 2 clones doing their stuff while you can actually run around and do something useful. Now, it's still this endless cutscene, it will be probably still bugged (honestly, I can't count amount of times I fell through the map even after DE "fixed" it), just now you have to pray your teammates won't kill your marked enemies while you try not to get parkinson shaking your mouse. :\

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

Oh no, they won't be able to press 4 and kill everything on the map and will actually need to think when playing 

[Kyronz]

• I wouldn't worry about bladestorm rework, they don't want people to play ash so they are going to make it such a huge pain in the tush to mark targets that no one will play ash.

[Cubewano]

Just now, EmptyDevil said:

Loki has to be shoehorned into an aim glide to use his while moving, Ash does not. What was the point of that?

Other people do find it useful.

First, you don't know how much energy it saves you. Second, don't build Ash to have low Power Duration(Typical Blade Storm build). Third, Blade Storm's energy cost was reduced in the rework last i heard. So what that point illustrates is that Ash has synergy within his powers as well and his energy economy is arguably better. He doesn't have a ridiculous cast time on any of his abilities either, that require a mod like natural talent(Radial disarm).

That Loki can remain mobile nearly as easily as Ash while using his invis, and it lasts much longer. 

Care to regale me with some tales of when people found the stagger on Ash's smokescreen useful?

We do know how much energy it saves, we saw it in the stream, his energy economy is not getting better with the update, at least not in reference to his ult. As for cast time, a few more seconds of animation for an ability that is going to hit plenty more enemies than Ash is not a downside in my opinion, especially when you can be invisible for all of that juicy cast. 

[Pendragon1951]

2 minutes ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

Oh no, they won't be able to press 4 and kill everything on the map and will actually need to think when playing 

The issue is not so much killing everything on the board, which obviously annoys you, but the way the rework is being done, which is adding more unnecessary steps to a power that already had a decent flow to it, that is the issue. 

[Kyronz]

patch out, now we get to see whether playing a crippled loki is better then a normal loki.

[CTanGod]

5 minutes ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

Oh no, they won't be able to press 4 and kill everything on the map and will actually need to think when playing 

Everyone will laugh now but they will cry later when DE adds something where old Ash would have made it a piece of cake.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 minute ago, Pendragon1951 said:

The issue is not so much killing everything on the board, which obviously annoys you, but the way the rework is being done, which is adding more unnecessary steps to a power that already had a decent flow to it, that is the issue. 

That and everyone standing around watching ash toothpick a ancient to death. 

[SpeedOfLightPuncher]

Just now, Pendragon1951 said:

The issue is not so much killing everything on the board, which obviously annoys you, but the way the rework is being done, which is adding more unnecessary steps to a power that already had a decent flow to it, that is the issue. 

It didn't have any flow

half the time the ability would not work when actually pressign 4, there was no interaction and the cutscenes were repetitive 

[Isochronic]

4 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Third, Blade Storm's energy cost was reduced in the rework last i heard. 

10 energy per hit (one hit. under stealth). 3 marks per enemy max. Like, if you're against 100~ lvl mobs and you have full energy pool, you can mark up to ~13-14 targets, if you are marking each of them 3 times. If you won't die while still doing it, of course. From aoe damage, toxin procs and whatevs.

Also, you probably can't recast smokescreen while targeting, nope? So eventually it will be ~15 energy per hit, while you're still trying to target at least decent amount of enemies, while your teammates kill the ones you already targeted... So, I can only see it like some endless loop now. With no point in using BS at all unless you are solo and you can't kill 3-5 enemies faster then you can mark them. And that happens like... never. 

I personally only use now Ash on sortie, when I need to be immune to something, to have my arcane trickery proc (to revive somebody) and to kill some big amount of enemies 'cause tigris reloads slower then my grandgrandpa walks. After this update I will probably use him like never, but will use another OP-ish stuff, because I'm lazy. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone in my lazyness. Will it stop forum whining about "... is too OP"? Nope, it will just switch to some new more preferred combo. And then we will eventually have some super-strategical turn-based game instead of an action shooter because something was too OP and killstealing.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

29 minutes ago, bl4ckhunter said:

i wonder, if we have to mark enemies one by one doesn't fatal teleport kind of put bladestorm into the dumpster? i mean, it deals more damage even if you build minimal strenght, refunds energy and is a whole lot faster, if i have to mark enemies one by one i might just kill them already instead.

Well, teleport puts you in the frontline / in harm's way. The new iteration of bladestorm seems to be mostly focused on getting into a room , targeting what you want dead, then striking from the shadows from the confort of a safe spot. Gonna be alot of fun in spy missions and other slow paced missions, especially since you can now bladestorm from a long range and it doesn't generate alerts and corpses.

I'm not convinced it will be worth using in fast-paced missions though... Sure, you can do a quick mark of a couple enemies surrounding an objective, for example, but to me the new power requires too much precision and planning to be useful in day to day "clear a mission as fast as possible" scenarios... Especially in a mission where your teammates are using world on fire ember , synoid simulor mirage and any other AOE room clearer.

Edited November 25, 2016 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[xaanos]

You changed Ash and DIDN'T change the headache inducing @(*()&#036; teleport everywhere animations that constantly shake the screen!?

 

WHY!?

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

2 hours ago, KurtOn99 said:

fargot

MUST...NOT...GRAMMAR NAZI....

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 minutes ago, SpeedOfLightPuncher said:

It didn't have any flow

half the time the ability would not work when actually pressign 4, there was no interaction and the cutscenes were repetitive 

but there are still cut scenes....

[[DE]Danielle]

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