Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[xexohunter]

Nazrethim, I completely agree with you. Ash is a frame with a nice theme and lot's of potential. He is playable with the current kit, but I believe this frame deserves much more love. The ideas I see here are awesome, while not everyone might be happy with changes and might not be happy after changes. However I wish for the sake of this incredible theme that this frame gets some attention and will be more fun than watching a never ending cutscene (which doesn't even look epic). I hope we can all enjoy the diversity of the game especially with the different frames and playstyles.

[Troll_Logic]

On 5/5/2017 at 8:38 PM, Thaylien said:

Okay. Now you're just getting ridiculous.

Because I was talking about how Blade Storm is a heavy damage ability already and you're talking about buffing its damage as if that helps. I was not trying to get into a huge debate about why your concept wouldn't work, just pointing out that your base statement that Ash did low damage with his first attack was incorrect.

So, if you want my full response to this, I'll give it to you.

Yeah, you're right.

It's a better mechanic.

Personally, I can't wait until the rework of Banshee so her "Sound Quake" has three different levels to it as well.

Also, the rework of Rhino so his "Stomp" has three different levels as well.  That's going to be so cool.  Having to tap "Stomp" three times while so the stomp actually does damage.

I know when Loki has to pick a range for his Disarm to work, that'll be so much better.

Yeah, having multiple settings for a warframe ult really makes so much more sense.

[(PSN)Censooored]

Ash is  still really strong  with  his uagments  .  I  use  both  the   seeking  shuriken  and  fatal  teleport  .  Seeking  shuriken  just  s trips   the   enemy's armor  and  fatal  teleport  with  a   dagger  covert  lethality   will  one shot anything  past  lvl  145.  Ash  still  stronk  

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Yeah, you're right.

It's a better mechanic.

Personally, I can't wait until the rework of Banshee so her "Sound Quake" has three different levels to it as well.

Also, the rework of Rhino so his "Stomp" has three different levels as well.  That's going to be so cool.  Having to tap "Stomp" three times while so the stomp actually does damage.

I know when Loki has to pick a range for his Disarm to work, that'll be so much better.

Yeah, having multiple settings for a warframe ult really makes so much more sense.

I'm not saying it's better, I'm saying that the one 'mark' used to be all you got (unless you literally waited until there were no other enemies around, or just got lucky on picking less than the full amount and you happened to RNG roll the same enemy three times), just that one 'slap', as you called it, was the full damage that BS hit for per attack. The fact that, if you want, you can guarantee 3? That's the bonus to using his abilities and your awareness of the game correctly, not something that you get every time you panic spam the cast.

Whether you like the mechanic of set, mark and then attack or not isn't the point. I don't like it either. But it's what DE did to stop the constant spam of his 4 allowing you to deal all his damage instantly on tapping the button. Their apology, as it were, to players for taking away the spam casting was to give them the chance at guaranteeing triple damage on a target of choice without having to attack anything else.

Blade Storm does enough damage with one mark to put all but one other damage ability to shame, if you can't make that work, you're just not using his abilities correctly. Or you're expecting massive, unbalanced returns for no reason other than 'oh he *can* do all this damage, but I can't just do it instantly, let me do it instantly' which DE specifically did this to prevent.

[Hypernaut1]

On 5/14/2017 at 4:26 PM, Azamagon said:

They merged a LOT of current Ash threads. It seems like they REALLY don't want us to discuss Ash anywhere else than here :/

I doubt they are seriously considering any of these ideas anymore. At this point this is just fan fiction reworks, and not actual feedback.

It would help if people weren't insistent on completely reworking a frame that WORKS and works well. 

All of these elaborate rework write ups are basically a waste of time. Asking for tweaks to what we currently have would be far more effective in getting the devs attention- like asking for an increase in animation speed during bladestorm. 

At some point people need to accept that Ash is what he is, a frame that teleports around killing enemies during his ultimate. Either you like that, or choose a different frame. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Reifnir]

10 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

I know when Loki has to pick a range for his Disarm to work, that'll be so much better.

Oh yes, because that worked so well for Ash and his BS!.. Oh, wait. 

Back to the topic, while I realize that most likely, none of the re-reworks mentioned so far are going to be used by DE, it doesn't stop me from getting ideas how to fix the poor old cripple. Here's one:

Spoiler

 

1) Shuriken gets to be BS. Tap to launch a single instance of old Shuriken, tap&hold to enter the targeting mode and place death marks. Instead of teleporting to each target, throw a shuriken for each Death Mark when ability key is pressed afterwards. Damage will probably need to be nerfed a good bit in the process. Augment can stay the same, armor stripping is good.

2) Smoke Screen not only places Ash in Stealth mode, but also blinds enemies in the vicinity for 3\4\5\7 seconds, affected by duration. Augment needs a buff - let's say, 10m base for effect sharing, now affected by duration, each ally affected by augmented Smoke Screen spawns a secondary Blind AoE.

Shurikens fired when invisible have a 50% Crititcal chance with 2.0x critical multiplier. 

3) Teleport is almost fine as it is, augment and all, if you fix the bugs. Could use a teleport to a location secondary function on tap&hold, though. Teleporting while invisible leaves a firecracker on your original position, which explodes 0.5 seconds later, attracting enemy attention similarly to Ivara's Noise Arrow, but for a much shorter duration.

4) Since BS get pretty much incorporated into Shuriken now, Ash needs a new ult. And, since he's THE Ninja frame among space mummies, space monkeys, space gunslingers and whatnot, how about he gets an adaptable power called Ninjutsu? 

Twofold functionality, as always. 

Tap cycles between two different modes - let's call them Venom and Shadow, since placeholders are better than nothing.

Activating the ability via tap&hold does two things.

[Immediate effect]

First, it sets off an AoE centered on Ash, 5\10\15\20m radius. Depending on the mode, results vary. 

Venom launches poisoned darts at every enemy within range. Requires LoS. Deals 300\500\700\1000 initial Toxin damage and another 175/225/350/500 Toxin damage every 0.5 seconds for 3 seconds (unaffected by Power Duration, affected by Power Strength). Both initial and DoT damage are doubled if the enemy is afflicted by a Slash proc, from Shuriken or otherwise. 

Shadow creates and expanding AoE of black smoke, which roots every enemy in place for 7\10\12\15 seconds. Bleeding enemies are also paralyzed.

[Lasting effect] 

Aside from the immediate AoE, activating Ninjutsu places a non-recastable buff on Ash for 4\7\10\15 seconds (affected by duration). During this time, Ash is restricted to using his old retractable blades similarly to Exalted weapons, but every melee attack works as a free short-ranged not-so-Fatal Teleport if the target is not in the immediate melee range. His other abilities are also modified for the duration.

Exact buff effect depends on currently active Ninjutsu mode. 

Shurikens inflict additional Toxin damage or slow enemies by 10%/20/25%/30%. 

Smoke Screen leaves behind a short-lived toxic cloud upon activation or increases movement speed while invisible by 5%/10%/15%/25%. 

Teleport leaves a posion bomb or a stun bomb instead of a firecracker. 

Melee attacks either deal additional Toxin damage or Stun enemies briefly and inflict guaranteed Slash procs. 

 

 

Yeah, I know, OP and such... Still, one can always dream ^^

 

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Reifnir said:

Oh yes, because that worked so well for Ash and his BS!.. Oh, wait. 

Back to the topic, while I realize that most likely, none of the re-reworks mentioned so far are going to be used by DE, it doesn't stop me from getting ideas how to fix the poor old cripple. Here's one:

Yeah, I know, OP and such... Still, one can always dream ^^

 

Not really, it's actually a good one. Would be a hell to balance for PvP but it could actually work.

Also, Confirmed, the only real way to actually fix Ash is a super mode ultimate akin to a Stance with special perks and synergy with the rest of his kit.

But true, imagine if Ember drained 15 energy per WoF eruption? Loki required 15 energy per dissarmed target? Equinox required 30 energy per Maimed target? So Fun

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

 Their apology, as it were, to players for taking away the spam casting was to give them the chance at guaranteeing triple damage on a target of choice without having to attack anything else.

And costing TRIPLE the energy for your trouble of actually marking, also increasing the average cost per enemy by 200 Fkin %

 

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I doubt they are seriously considering any of these ideas anymore. At this point this is just fan fiction reworks, and not actual feedback.

Probably, doesn't mean we have to put up with THEIR mistakes. They goofed up with Ash, big time, and we want them to clean their mess.

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

It would help if people weren't insistent on completely reworking a frame that WORKS and works well. 

He works, he is playable, but he isn't "well" by any measure. Most of the problems pre-revisit Ash had are still there, plus the problems DE added. Saying Ash works well is like saying the Big Rigs is a good truck racing game because it's "playable".

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

All of these elaborate rework write ups are basically a waste of time. Asking for tweaks to what we currently have would be far more effective in getting the devs attention- like asking for an increase in animation speed during bladestorm. 

That has been suggested, he needs mostly 3 tweaks:

-Make Duration WORTH investing in.

-Make the frame just as energy efficient as it was before

-Speed up the animation.

How do you get all these? Simple, make BS cost 100 energy to activate a 6-10s marking mode, during which you can mark as much enemies as you please with no additional cost. Then once you unleash it or it goes off on it's own split the attacks between Ash and his clones. If you mark 30 enemies you only get to see 10 cutscenes while the clones handle the rest.

However! You may notice that's the same sh*t the revisit supposedly eliminated (also, DE claimed they wanted to reduce cutscene time, which they didn't).

2 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

At some point people need to accept that Ash is what he is, a frame that teleports around killing enemies during his ultimate. Either you like that, or choose a different frame. 

And eating more energy than he has capacity for with Primed Flow.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

And costing TRIPLE the energy for your trouble of actually marking, also increasing the average cost per enemy by 200 Fkin %

Yes, taking away the spam. This is what they did. The increased energy cost is part of that because they felt that a max efficiency build having zero detriment on a max strength build, allowing players to cast a max strength bladestorm for only 50 energy or so was not what they wanted. Their 'apology' was granting us multi-targeting on specific enemies. I didn't say I like it, I just said it's what they did.

DE Genuinely don't appear to like us having Finisher damage, they want it mitigated by cost and effort. Any damage that flat out ignores their damage system isn't fun for them, but they feel that some abilities, by theme, should deal it otherwise why include it as a function at all?

[Nazrethim]

On 16/05/2017 at 2:59 PM, Thaylien said:

Yes, taking away the spam. This is what they did. The increased energy cost is part of that because they felt that a max efficiency build having zero detriment on a max strength build, allowing players to cast a max strength bladestorm for only 50 energy or so was not what they wanted. Their 'apology' was granting us multi-targeting on specific enemies. I didn't say I like it, I just said it's what they did.

Then why not nerf Efficiency and energy gains? Many frames are downright broken because of that, that is the reason Nullifiers exist.

A frame should NEVER be balanced around Max broken stat Efficiency. Never. Yet they did and whoever doesn't have both Streamline or Fleeting Expertsie can go suck a lemmon.

They could have taken away the spam without butchering his energy management, yknow? it's not like MONTHS in advance savvy players warned them that the marking system would be terrible for Ash overall and will leave the MaxEffi spammers largely untouched, which were the target demographic that cause problems by spamming relentlessly.

They also claimed they wanted to reduce cutscene, yet they increased it.

Meanwhile, a Stance Ultimate cobbled together with Claw, Sparring and some Dual Dagger animations with a few triggers and easy to insert gimmicks would have solved everything.

Quote

DE Genuinely don't appear to like us having Finisher damage, they want it mitigated by cost and effort. Any damage that flat out ignores their damage system isn't fun for them, but they feel that some abilities, by theme, should deal it otherwise why include it as a function at all?

If they didn't like Finisher damage they would have turned BS into Slash at any time.

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 16/05/2017 at 3:06 PM, Nazrethim said:

Then why not nerf Efficiency and energy gains? Many frames are downright broken because of that, that is the reason Nullifiers exist.

Too much work ^^ If DE are anything it's lazy when it comes to short term solutions. Energy efficiency would have meant reworking everything from drops to plates to the other frames that aren't even broken due to efficiency, all to fix Bladestorm.

Of course they were going to change Ash instead of change that.

On 16/05/2017 at 3:06 PM, Nazrethim said:

If they didn't like Finisher damage they would have turned BS into Slash at any time.

I think with BS they cared a little too much about our opinions, the community complaining about them even trying to change the ability is what left it in the broken state it is. Your stance idea may have worked, but DE were trying to please too many people. The most vocal of those people were the ones that didn't want to change it at all, and the ones that were calling for yet another Hysteria or Exalted Blade. And the problem is, no matter how clearly you word the ideas for your stance, all people will see it as is just a more specific exalted weapon.

Also changing it to slash would have been an even bigger nerf than it currently is, at least this way we can pick a single enemy and deal a metric ton of damage into their face regardless of armour or shield...

[Nazrethim]

8 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Too much work ^^ If DE are anything it's lazy when it comes to short term solutions. Energy efficiency would have meant reworking everything from drops to plates to the other frames that aren't even broken due to efficiency, all to fix Bladestorm.

Not really, they just need to revert efficiency to what it was before. Where Efficiency scaled correctly and getting +100% energy efficiency (or 200% in terms of UI) would net you only 50% cost reduction, with a DR added so you only reach 75% cost reduction with 400% efficiency. And then removing the +75% cap so players can stack as much as they want.

Quote

Of course they were going to change Ash instead of change that.

Judging from the broken cost of the ability, they didn't consider default Efficiency and just made it around Max Efficiency, completely scr*wing customization in the process.

Quote

I think with BS they cared a little too much about our opinions, the community complaining about them even trying to change the ability is what left it in the broken state it is. Your stance idea may have worked, but DE were trying to please too many people. The most vocal of those people were the ones that didn't want to change it at all, and the ones that were calling for yet another Hysteria or Exalted Blade. And the problem is, no matter how clearly you word the ideas for your stance, all people will see it as is just a more specific exalted weapon.

Translation: DE tried to please m*rons and savvy players at once, and of course it backfired and p*ssed off both, instead of listening to savvy players with good ideas and largely ignoring m*rons who wanted P4TW or didn't understand jacksquat about actual game mechanics and development to make a good rework that solved every problem in a simple yet effective way.

Quote

Also changing it to slash would have been an even bigger nerf than it currently is, at least this way we can pick a single enemy and deal a metric ton of damage into their face regardless of armour or shield...

I wasn't saying that literally. Also they did change BS to Slash briefly for a time in Conclave, which made the already useless ability even more useless, then they reverted it back to Finisher (Conclave finisher, that doesn't ignore shields but ignores armor) buffed damage and range and became broken, so they nerfed it again into uselessness, then came the revisit and became the Second most useless ultimate in the game, the Most useless, FYI, is Nekros Shadows of the Death that (and I'm not joking) makes the respawn timer for him and his allies instant. Yes, BS currently is only second in uselessness to THAT. And the tricky thing is, it cannot be buffed in any meaningful way without making it broke, hence it requires a rework.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

Not really, they just need to revert efficiency to what it was before.

Except that would break all the frames that are currently balanced for energy... as I said.

2 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Translation

None needed, I thought. Nothing creative or original is achieved by committees, it just isn't. You end up trying to please all and managing to please none by default.

So... you good with me, Naz? I wasn't expecting to see you jump in on something else I said ^^ All I'm trying to do is shut that other guy up about his idea not actually holding water; tripling the damage doesn't solve his problem, and it never will.

[Nazrethim]

Just now, Thaylien said:

Except that would break all the frames that are currently balanced for energy... as I said.

Well, that only affects like, 3 frames I think, which could have their ability costs tweaked to work around Default efficiency.

Just now, Thaylien said:

None needed, I thought. Nothing creative or original is achieved by committees, it just isn't. You end up trying to please all and managing to please none by default.

So... you good with me, Naz? I wasn't expecting to see you jump in on something else I said ^^ All I'm trying to do is shut that other guy up about his idea not actually holding water; tripling the damage doesn't solve his problem, and it never will.

I'm enjoying these words with you. We are pretty much on the same boat :D

I just thought it would be funny to make that "translation" :P

[Birdframe_Prime]

Just now, Nazrethim said:

Well, that only affects like, 3 frames I think, which could have their ability costs tweaked to work around Default efficiency.

So which ones do you think are actually balanced for energy (not balanced as frames)? Currently I would count... Atlas, Zephyr, Rhino, Volt and Loki (the last two only because of how large their energy pools are at base anyway...) Ivara's a bit of a mixed bag, because if you only use her invisibility she's not, but if you're actively using all the rest of her casts then she is... Vauban's in a pretty good place... And then I think you get a good balance for Octavia, but that's because you want duration and a large range on her abilities, so Fleeting Expertise and Narrow Minded aren't as useful as people think...

Any you'd include, or would you say some of these are still energy @#&*(s that need taking down a couple of pegs?

[Nazrethim]

6 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

So which ones do you think are actually balanced for energy (not balanced as frames)? Currently I would count... Atlas, Zephyr, Rhino, Volt and Loki (the last two only because of how large their energy pools are at base anyway...) Ivara's a bit of a mixed bag, because if you only use her invisibility she's not, but if you're actively using all the rest of her casts then she is... Vauban's in a pretty good place... And then I think you get a good balance for Octavia, but that's because you want duration and a large range on her abilities, so Fleeting Expertise and Narrow Minded aren't as useful as people think...

Any you'd include, or would you say some of these are still energy @#&*(s that need taking down a couple of pegs?

Well, mostly Saryn, maybe Nidus due to how Efficiency works on him, Banshee and probably Valkyr.

I would count Zephyr too but she's long due for a revisit so I will reserve regarding her. I've played Atlas at regular efficiency and had no problems, same for Volt and Loki. They only incur in energy starve if you actively spam as much as you can, which is true for pretty much everyone. Playing at default efficiency is very different from regular efficiency, again, because at max you can cast 4 times as many abilities, which is broken no matter how you look at it. Another interesting quirk of playing at regular effi is that you are encouraged to break containers and open lockers.

Ivara I also run her at default efficiency when I leveled her, if you rely entirely on her abilities, particularly Sleep arrow, you will easily run dry. Navigator does drain too much energy for it's effect. Using her abilities when you really need them or avoiding using them when you can take another aproach usually makes her very energy efficient on her own. Again, relentless spam is not advised at default. Teshin is right, the Tenno are complacent like Oxen.

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Ivara I also run her at default efficiency when I leveled her

Hah, because she was released just before the MR = Mod Points update, a few of us went to level her in grineer survival, with basically just Energy Siphon, Vitality and Streamline... lasted over an hour with only a couple of accidental deaths. Right out of the box. Haven't done that with a lot of other frames.

See, I don't actually blame the energy system in warframe for a lot, right now, I do blame the balance of powers not encouraging us to ditch it in favour of using better parts of other abilities.

When you have frames that can fully abandon a stat, like strength or duration, in favour of ramping up one or two with no downsides to how the frame performs in game that's when you have a problem.

Ash was one that you could literally use only Blade Storm and everything else was completely unnecessary, and that's just a straight up return to the days when we could take out our abilities like mods. Much like now when you have frames that only use two abilities regularly, because the others don't always perform as well, like Zephyr (as you mentioned, due for that rework) only ever really using 1 and 3 to get things done.

And I certainly think it's easier to fix the frames than to go backwards on energy, considering how many iterations of the game have come out since that change.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Hah, because she was released just before the MR = Mod Points update, a few of us went to level her in grineer survival, with basically just Energy Siphon, Vitality and Streamline... lasted over an hour with only a couple of accidental deaths. Right out of the box. Haven't done that with a lot of other frames.

See, I don't actually blame the energy system in warframe for a lot, right now, I do blame the balance of powers not encouraging us to ditch it in favour of using better parts of other abilities.

When you have frames that can fully abandon a stat, like strength or duration, in favour of ramping up one or two with no downsides to how the frame performs in game that's when you have a problem.

Ash was one that you could literally use only Blade Storm and everything else was completely unnecessary, and that's just a straight up return to the days when we could take out our abilities like mods. Much like now when you have frames that only use two abilities regularly, because the others don't always perform as well, like Zephyr (as you mentioned, due for that rework) only ever really using 1 and 3 to get things done.

And I certainly think it's easier to fix the frames than to go backwards on energy, considering how many iterations of the game have come out since that change.

True. It's easier to tweak the frames than the core system, though that¡s treating the wound without removing the bullet.

It would be nice if all powers were affected by all stats, but still, Efficiency is just too strong right now, hence why it's the only stat with a cap.

[Troll_Logic]

8 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I'm not saying it's better, I'm saying that the one 'mark' used to be all you got

Nope.  If there was a tougher enemy, then Ash would keep doing attacking that enemy until the duration was over.  Do you not remember that?

If there was an ignis next to you, Bladestorm would continue to attack him until the duration was over.  Now, the player can attack him with one marking, and while the player is attacking him, he's shooting the Ash's body.  Ash comes back, takes massive damage, and has time to select him once more, but the ignis still isn't dead and he's still shooting Ash.  Bladestorm is over, starts taking massive damage in the time between Bladestorm is over and the tenno controls Ash, and POOF! Ash is dead.

8 hours ago, Thaylien said:

The fact that, if you want, you can guarantee 3? That's the bonus to using his abilities and your awareness of the game correctly, not something that you get every time you panic spam the cast.

It's not a bonus.  It's part of the mechanic to "make up" for the fact that Ash won't continue to attack an enemy that's still standing after the initial hit.

8 hours ago, Thaylien said:

But it's what DE did to stop the constant spam of his 4 allowing you to deal all his damage instantly on tapping the button.

Well, no.  DE wanted to get away from the "Ash simply hits '4' and every enemy in range is attacked."  I agree with that 100%.  Hitting 4 and every enemy in range was attacked was OP.  But there is theory and practice.  In theory, it's a great idea.  It encompasses ability synergy, energy conservation, warframe lore, and skillful game play.  In practice, all of that is thrown out the window because the game is too fast, there is an abundance of energy, more than competent weapons, a race course for 80% of the maps, and three other players that are doing everything they can to maximize kills.

9 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Blade Storm does enough damage with one mark to put all but one other damage ability to shame, if you can't make that work, you're just not using his abilities correctly.

Yes, I realize that I'm the absolute worst Ash player in the game.  Every other tenno that plays Ash never dies.  Every other Ash player has more skill than I do.  I've accepted that.

That being said, I'd think that the accepted fix for this idiotic mechanic is to use the skill of "wildly spamming the cursor in every direction hoping to mark as many enemies as much as possible" before hitting Bladestorm.  And if that crutch isn't prima facie evidence on how stupid Bladestorm is implemented, then I don't know what else is.

What's even worse is players actually defending that crutch.  "What?  Every player simply spins the cursor as wildly as possible.  What's wrong with that?"

I honestly love that.  Players defending their skill in playing Ash by using the the most unskilled action in the game.  L. O. V. E.  I. T!

9 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Or you're expecting massive, unbalanced returns for no reason other than 'oh he *can* do all this damage, but I can't just do it instantly, let me do it instantly' which DE specifically did this to prevent.

I'm just about done speaking of this with you.  I'm not asking for it to go back to the old way.  I'm not asking for OP Bladestorm.  The current Bladestorm can do up to three attacks per enemy and all I'm asking for is "Drop the stupid 'up to three marks', mark everything equivalent to the three marks, make the energy cost the same as the three marks (or slightly lower), and go from there."  That's it.  There isn't time in the attacks to mark enemies three times.

For some reason you think I'm arguing for OP Bladestorm, CC, or some other nonsense you said I wanted  (I'm not going to go searching in 100+ pages).

The current three markings thing is stupid.  The fact that the workaround is wildly spinning the mouse rather than aiming or using any skill, proves that.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

It's not a bonus.  It's part of the mechanic to "make up" for the fact that Ash won't continue to attack an enemy that's still standing after the initial hit.

For a "make up" it still rather sh*tty, as it triples the cost.

2 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Well, no.  DE wanted to get away from the "Ash simply hits '4' and every enemy in range is attacked."  I agree with that 100%.  Hitting 4 and every enemy in range was attacked was OP.  But there is theory and practice.  In theory, it's a great idea.  It encompasses ability synergy, energy conservation, warframe lore, and skillful game play.  In practice, all of that is thrown out the window because the game is too fast, there is an abundance of energy, more than competent weapons, a race course for 80% of the maps, and three other players that are doing everything they can to maximize kills.

Da whol Trut

2 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

That being said, I'd think that the accepted fix for this idiotic mechanic is to use the skill of "wildly spamming the cursor in every direction hoping to mark as many enemies as much as possible" before hitting Bladestorm.  And if that crutch isn't prima facie evidence on how stupid Bladestorm is implemented, then I don't know what else is.

You forgot "and spending 15 to 45 energy PER enemy around... on a HORDE game, when the frame can only reach 405 energy capacity with a very rare primed mod"

2 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

What's even worse is players actually defending that crutch.  "What?  Every player simply spins the cursor as wildly as possible.  What's wrong with that?"

I honestly love that.  Players defending their skill in playing Ash by using the the most unskilled action in the game.  L. O. V. E.  I. T!

True that too, by that logic, picking off Ancient Disruptors on Old Bladestorm to avoid getting stuck on them would have counted as Skill, and still most failed miserably at that.

2 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

I'm just about done speaking of this with you.  I'm not asking for it to go back to the old way.  I'm not asking for OP Bladestorm.  The current Bladestorm can do up to three attacks per enemy and all I'm asking for is "Drop the stupid 'up to three marks', mark everything equivalent to the three marks, make the energy cost the same as the three marks (or slightly lower), and go from there."  That's it.  There isn't time in the attacks to mark enemies three times.

Simple: make BS cost the same as before for the same amount of enemies, which means either reducing the cost to 5 per enemy (all 3 marks) or make it a 6-10s duration based marking mode where you can mark as many enemies as you can before the ability goes off (or you cancel it earlier to attack what you have marked) that costs 100 energy to activate.

2 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

The current three markings thing is stupid.  The fact that the workaround is wildly spinning the mouse rather than aiming or using any skill, proves that.

True that too.

Let's also not forget that BS in Conclave is the Second most useless ultimate in the game, for comparison, the 1st most useless is Nekros's Shadows of the Death which makes him and his allies respawn instantly if they die (on a gamemode with 2 to 3s respawn timer no less)

[Birdframe_Prime]

On 2017-5-16 at 8:04 PM, Troll_Logic said:

 If there was a tougher enemy, then Ash would keep doing attacking that enemy until the duration was over.  Do you not remember that?

Hah, and yes, because I pointed it out, and that's where I see this version as better in this specific regard: If there were 18 enemies in range, each enemy only got hit once, if there were 15 you would get RNG as to which ones got hit more than once by the three remaining attacks, if they were still alive. If there was a tough enemy, Ash didn't keep attacking it unless he had left-over attacks up to 18 and all other targets in range of the original cast were gone.

Basically you kept attacking the strong enemy because Ash was forced to attack 18 times or until you'd run out of living targets from the original cast. That was it.

On 2017-5-16 at 8:04 PM, Troll_Logic said:

It's not a bonus.

This is why it's a bonus. You are no longer forced to attack for every single one of 18 attacks (unless everything dies first) with this method you can manually mark up to three times on a specific priority enemy and attack only him, or you can scan a wide range and hit more than 18 if you have the energy for it.

On 2017-5-16 at 8:04 PM, Troll_Logic said:

Well, no.  DE wanted to get away from the "Ash simply hits '4' and every enemy in range is attacked."  I agree with that 100%.  Hitting 4 and every enemy in range was attacked was OP.  But there is theory and practice.  In theory, it's a great idea.  It encompasses ability synergy, energy conservation, warframe lore, and skillful game play.  In practice, all of that is thrown out the window because the game is too fast, there is an abundance of energy, more than competent weapons, a race course for 80% of the maps, and three other players that are doing everything they can to maximize kills.

Look, I can't do this anymore, even just writing the start of this comment quoting you is getting to be a chore because you aren't seeing that you're arguing about something I'm not. you're getting into this whole spiel again, and it just doesn't change my point at all.

Because this:

On 2017-5-16 at 8:04 PM, Troll_Logic said:

I'm not asking for OP Bladestorm.

You are. Because you're asking to use one mark, to deal the damage of three marks. That is all.

How many times and ways do I have to say that I don't care about the whole side of the argument about this current Blade Storm being good or bad at all, I don't think this is a better method either and you don't have to argue the toss with me like this. I do not think the current blade storm is good, I am not saying you're a terrible Ash player (okay, yes, I think you need to do better, but you're not doing terribly).

However. I think. That your idea. YOUR SPECIFIC IDEA. From the thread you started before it was merged in here. To put more damage into a single mark and not have multi-marking. Is never. Going. To happen. Because DE have not changed the damage per attack/mark at all over this rework and it still does the same damage. Intentionally.

Moreover your idea to buff the damage will NOT solve your problem of not killing enemies of a certain level or above. It just delays it.

Adding more damage to an ability never solves its problems. It just puts off the point at which you start running into trouble again. Sometimes it doesn't even do that.

You could have spent all this energy and time coming up with a better method for BS to work with, but no, you spent it arguing over an idea that boils down to the concept that the current method would somehow work better as long as it had buffed damage.

Edited May 17, 2017 by Thaylien

[Nazrethim]

Short version:

No amount of statistical buffs to Current Blade Storm will make it better because the problems with it are mechanical not statistical outside of the insane energy cost.

To fix the actual problems Blade Storm needs to be reworked into something else entirely.

[Birdframe_Prime]

6 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Short version:

No amount of statistical buffs to Current Blade Storm will make it better because the problems with it are mechanical not statistical outside of the insane energy cost.

To fix the actual problems Blade Storm needs to be reworked into something else entirely.

Hear hear.

Hell, over the current one I'd even settle for them testing (testing) one I saw suggested a while back. A kind of Peacemaker style one where Ash charges up Clones passively from his other abilities and then pressing 4 causes him to stop in an 'epic ninja pose' (their words) and cast four base clones plus the charged value extra at targets around him, with the extra clones coming out in 'waves' to attack enemies in range and ones that then walk into range, also letting you cancel the ability early so you can keep some clone charges over from cast to cast if there's not that many enemies in the room. Directly link his game play to his 4th ability, so you always have clones, but can build up enough to wipe a room by playing his other abilities more.

That may not be the best idea, sure, but I bet we could make that work better than the current method.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

Hear hear.

Hell, over the current one I'd even settle for them testing (testing) one I saw suggested a while back. A kind of Peacemaker style one where Ash charges up Clones passively from his other abilities and then pressing 4 causes him to stop in an 'epic ninja pose' (their words) and cast four base clones plus the charged value extra at targets around him, with the extra clones coming out in 'waves' to attack enemies in range and ones that then walk into range, also letting you cancel the ability early so you can keep some clone charges over from cast to cast if there's not that many enemies in the room. Directly link his game play to his 4th ability, so you always have clones, but can build up enough to wipe a room by playing his other abilities more.

That may not be the best idea, sure, but I bet we could make that work better than the current method.

Indeed. Another simple idea I had in mind, at least to mitigate the absurd energy cost, is to make current BS a duration based mode that costs 100 energy and lasts 6 to 10 seconds. During it, you can mark as many targets as you wish/can, and then by canceling it earlier or timer running off you unleash Current BS, with the change that the 2 clones assist you in killing. So if you mark 15 enemies you only get to see 5 finishers. Marks not costing any additional energy.

Of course, that would put BS more or less where it used to be. The Conclave version needs not it's marking range (8m) but the fall-off range (also 8m) buffed to about 20m and the mobility penalties removed, because they make no F-ing sense.

Edited May 18, 2017 by Nazrethim

[AKKILLA]

On 16/05/2017 at 11:48 AM, Hypernaut1 said:

I doubt they are seriously considering any of these ideas anymore. At this point this is just fan fiction reworks, and not actual feedback.

It would help if people weren't insistent on completely reworking a frame that WORKS and works well. 

All of these elaborate rework write ups are basically a waste of time. Asking for tweaks to what we currently have would be far more effective in getting the devs attention- like asking for an increase in animation speed during bladestorm. 

At some point people need to accept that Ash is what he is, a frame that teleports around killing enemies during his ultimate. Either you like that, or choose a different frame. 

I see no reason in having Forums then. If they are tell bent on not changing Ash due to the constant persistent cries of "Fix My fab frame" then just shut the forums down. There's no point in asking for pols opinions if the don't care to listen and make the fans happy. I'm a Tattoo artist, I don't unjust tattoo what I want on ppl skin, I try to accommodate the clients needs. This is See creation yes, but for us to enjoy. Why capture our attention and make such a great game to deceive us and let us down with half re-done abilities. Btw not everything Ash related is correct. His description states smoke screen blinds and stubs enemies and all it does is stagger then for a half a second.  You telling me that adding AoE choke cloud to way we already have is bad?! Making Blade Storm a Stance and too huh? It's essentially the same stuff we have now but controlled. Instead of pressing 4 to watch it why not activate and control it? I really don't get the logic some of you have maybe y'all like macrobot abilities and blade storm promotes asking. Just cuz you have to wave your mouse around to mark doesn't mean blade storm is interactive. You still press 4 to watch a slide show.

And to rebuddle your reply about DE not paying any mind to these ideas Rebecca tagged herself in @Nazrethim Ash thread, I have faith this can and will happen. Embrace good new ideas don't be narrow minded