Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Nazrethim]

21 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

 And to rebuddle your reply about DE not paying any mind to these ideas Rebecca tagged herself in @Nazrethim Ash thread, I have faith this can and will happen.

I answer to this with a sincere "Wait! What?!"

21 minutes ago, AKKILLA said:

Embrace good new ideas don't be narrow minded

Sooner or later DE will heed us and Ash will get his rightful rework, and this whole year will seem like a fleeting expertise

[AKKILLA]

12 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

I answer to this with a sincere "Wait! What?!"

Sooner or later DE will heed us and Ash will get his rightful rework, and this whole year will seem like a fleeting expertise

I think we have OVEREXTENDED  this topic a bit 😂😂😂😂

[Doomsknightmare]

Before Blade Storm got nerfed I had no interest in playing Ash coz he was basically press 4 to win back then, sure he was a top tier frame but he's boring as well.

Recently I play Ash more often, IMO he's a good frame for the Index & certain Boss fight, with his amzaing Fatal Teleport augment, but Blade Storm really got... u know, nerfed, and I can understand why so many Ash players keep this thread going on. RIP BS Ash

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, Doomerang said:

Before Blade Storm got nerfed I had no interest in playing Ash coz he was basically press 4 to win back then, sure he was a top tier frame but he's boring as well.

Recently I play Ash more often, IMO he's a good frame for the Index & certain Boss fight, with his amzaing Fatal Teleport augment, but Blade Storm really got... u know, nerfed, and I can understand why so many Ash players keep this thread going on. RIP BS Ash

Actually, the most savvy players don't limit the jugment to BS alone. Sure, it's the ability that needs the most drastic changes, but his other abilities also need a look. Namely Automatic Finisher being a thing for default Teleport, Teleport being able to be used on terrain, Smoke Screen doing an actual smoke screen with a more meaningful effect on the enemy and having the option with Shuriken to not make it not tracking so we can actually aim shots at a group of enemies and hit the one we are actually aiming at.

There's also the Conclave aspect where Ash has 3 useless abilities (Shuriken, Teleport and BS) one near useless ability (Smoke Screen, which is good only to get one or two jumps more powerful than usual) and a stupidly limited passive (Bleed on melee hit is nice, but why is it only limited to Nikanas?)

Edited May 21, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Things wrong with Ash`s bladestorm

·         He can`t use bs in a team because other players kill the marked target e.g ember, mirage with simulor etc.

·         He can`t kill in an AOE anymore.

·         The animation is shown for every enemy marked which means bs is way longer than before.

·         Activating bs is slow because of the two stages.

·         When using bs without a melee weapon is even slower to use before the change.

·         It`s harder to activate bs on a controller than on PC.

The corrected way to rework bs is to keep the old bs but with small changes;

·         Enemies that are marked can be killed by players

·         Make bs be able to kill 20 enemies

·         If players don’t want to watch animation press 4 again to come out of it and the clones will continue killing while Ash kills other thing but you can`t use bs again until all marked enemies are dead. So the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not. Also if a teammate is downed ash can come out of bs and revive the downed teammate.

·         Make bs set with a appropriate speed then make melee mods with fury speed up bs.

From what I have seen and heard the way Ash`s bladestorm is, some players are not using him and let’s call it what it is, if bs was gone ash will be useless vs multiple enemies like nova, loki, ember without their 4^th ability.

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

-snip-

Tell me exactly...

...how would those changes avoid the P4TW mindless spam of old?

... how would those changes bring synergy with the rest of his ability set with no abilities overlapping?

...how will that be balanced for Conclave without being brokenly OP or so weak as to be useless?

...how will those changes make it interactive without making it a nuke/summoning spell?

[Troll_Logic]

On 5/17/2017 at 5:50 PM, Thaylien said:

Hah, and yes, because I pointed it out, and that's where I see this version as better in this specific regard: If there were 18 enemies in range, each enemy only got hit once, if there were 15 you would get RNG as to which ones got hit more than once by the three remaining attacks, if they were still alive. If there was a tough enemy, Ash didn't keep attacking it unless he had left-over attacks up to 18 and all other targets in range of the original cast were gone.

Basically you kept attacking the strong enemy because Ash was forced to attack 18 times or until you'd run out of living targets from the original cast. That was it.

Right there is the crux of our disagreement.  In my opinion, the older way of concentrating attacks on the tougher enemies is a much better mechanic.

On 5/17/2017 at 5:50 PM, Thaylien said:

To put more damage into a single mark and not have multi-marking. Is never. Going. To happen. Because DE have not changed the damage per attack/mark at all over this rework and it still does the same damage. Intentionally.

It won't happen.  But that's not why.  Ash was just redone and if DE decides to rework Ash, which they won't, it wouldn't happen for a long time.  Ash's mechanic is stupid.  Ash is now a turn based mechanic in a RTS game if I may mix metaphors.  Ash's mechanic is stupid and if DE didn't change it within a couple weeks of release then they will never change it.  I'm still stunned that people arguing haphazardly sweeping the cursor around proves the mechanic is a good choice.

I'm still going to voice my displeasure though.

On 5/17/2017 at 5:50 PM, Thaylien said:

You could have spent all this energy and time coming up with a better method for BS to work with, but no, you spent it arguing over an idea that boils down to the concept that the current method would somehow work better as long as it had buffed damage.

Be careful on top of that condescending high horse.  It's a long fall down.

[Birdframe_Prime]

 

On 30/05/2017 at 4:29 AM, Troll_Logic said:

Right there is the crux of our disagreement.  In my opinion, the older way of concentrating attacks on the tougher enemies is a much better mechanic.

Except it didn't? I can now see your base opinion in this, it's just... based on something that was just plain unreliable.

Like I said, it was literally just RNG as to which enemy you ended up hitting. Depending on the level, you might not even hit the strong enemy more than once, because your initial round of attacks might not kill the weaker ones with the main damage, and then the remaining attacks would be used up going back to them during the bleed damage, which would kill them anyway, instead of the most dangerous enemy. There was literally no control at all.

'Concentration' of attacks, as you call it, was just hoping that there weren't any other enemies alive to distract Ash from that target. And, considering that the AI groups up around those units, that's not really very likely.

On 30/05/2017 at 4:29 AM, Troll_Logic said:

It won't happen.  But that's not why.  Ash was just redone and if DE decides to rework Ash, which they won't, it wouldn't happen for a long time.

And with this, we have to disagree again. DE will look at Ash again, but with the amount of feedback this kind of thread gets, they aren't going to keep this entire mechanic at all. It's likely that they'll change the ability with some newer mechanic that they work out later. It won't be exactly what any of us have said here, but it will be a different way of applying damage.

What I consider key, however, is that they won't ever take this mechanic and try to fix it by adding base damage. This mechanic is bad enough without adding broken damage to it.

[Hypernaut1]

They shouldn't butcher Ash for people's personal fan concepts.

Ash is what he is. He should NOT get an entirely different move set. If you don't like him, move on. 

Ash's rework was like Oberons. Keeping the same theme, but with a few tweaks. Even Excalibur kept most of his abilities except the one that wasn't needed anymore because all frames can super jump now. 

If you want an exhalted stance frame, pick Excalibur. If you want WoF pick Ember. 

Ash is fine how he is (for the most part) and very effective in combat and gameplay. 

[Nazrethim]

On 30/05/2017 at 8:08 PM, Thaylien said:

Except it didn't? I can now see your base opinion in this, it's just... based on something that was just plain unreliable.

Like I said, it was literally just RNG as to which enemy you ended up hitting. Depending on the level, you might not even hit the strong enemy more than once, because your initial round of attacks might not kill the weaker ones with the main damage, and then the remaining attacks would be used up going back to them during the bleed damage, which would kill them anyway, instead of the most dangerous enemy. There was literally no control at all.

'Concentration' of attacks, as you call it, was just hoping that there weren't any other enemies alive to distract Ash from that target. And, considering that the AI groups up around those units, that's not really very likely.

It's also worth mentioning that when you attacked an enemy more than 3 times, it was either an Eximus or a Disruptor, both of which were pretty much inmune to BS's damage anyway, which meant you got stuck.

Quote

And with this, we have to disagree again. DE will look at Ash again, but with the amount of feedback this kind of thread gets, they aren't going to keep this entire mechanic at all. It's likely that they'll change the ability with some newer mechanic that they work out later. It won't be exactly what any of us have said here, but it will be a different way of applying damage.

What I consider key, however, is that they won't ever take this mechanic and try to fix it by adding base damage. This mechanic is bad enough without adding broken damage to it.

Indeed, the problem isn't a statistical one (well, not damage at least, energy cost is outright broken in a crippling way). The problem is mechanical. The abiity can't be buffed in any meanigful way without making it broken, but definetly cannot be left as it is because it's too weak in terms of gameplay. This is more evident in Conclave, where the ability is currently detrimental to the player but buffing it wouldn't do any good either with the current mechanics.

 

On 30/05/2017 at 9:59 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

They shouldn't butcher Ash for people's personal fan concepts.

May I remind you that this marking mode we got was player suggested, DE's original idea was World on Bladestorm, which every savvy non-P4TW player pointed out was dumb. So they went with the second dumbest idea, which savvy players pointed out was going to be bad too.

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Ash is what he is. He should NOT get an entirely different move set. If you don't like him, move on. 

Had you bothered to read in detail this thread (titanic task, I know, but it's worth doing it) you would know we don't want an entirely different move set, we want actual improvements to the current moveset, the only ability being redone would be Blade Storm, because it doesn't fit anymore. It overlaps with 2 other abilities and is inherently less powerful for various reasons. It has been mathematically proven to be a failure and you can't argue with math.

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Ash's rework was like Oberons. Keeping the same theme, but with a few tweaks. Even Excalibur kept most of his abilities except the one that wasn't needed anymore because all frames can super jump now. 

Yes, good thing you bring excalibur, who got his 3rd ability scrapped and his 4 moved there, while he got a new ultimate. Exactly the kind of treatment we want for Ash. Keep the theme, scrap what needs to be scrapped and give him a new power. Not the nerfed sh*t we have now.

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If you want an exhalted stance frame, pick Excalibur. If you want WoF pick Ember. 

Except that for Ash a Stance Ultimate would fit him perfectly, as he was the First frame with his own weapons and he is a melee oriented frame. Of course we don't mean a straight copy of Exalted Spam or Hysteria. We want something fresh that follows Ash theme as a ninja. Something interactive that doesn¡t consist of a macro to repeat the same attack.

Quote

Ash is fine how he is (for the most part) and very effective in combat and gameplay. 

"for the most" you say? Run him with default efficiency, or better yet, run with him in Conclave and see how "effective in combat and gameplay" he is. You will find his abilities good... as long as you never activate Energy Waste Storm

[Arkvold]

Personally, I've always felt that Fatal Teleport should've been inherent in Teleport, Teleport should do a single attack of what Bladestorm does now when tapped (and letting you teleport-murder your way around a room if tapped repeatedly, targeting the closest enemy to your reticle each time), and Bladestorm should be changed into something absolutely different.

Maybe a wide, persistent tornado of flying shurikens that damage, strip armor and slash proc victims that stay in it - a literal blade storm.  Kinda like Inaros's sandstorm, only instead of becoming the tornado, you place it down on a spot and then can move and fight around it while it serves as an area-denial zone.  Might be intruding too much into Zephyr's toolkit, but then again Zephyr is in dire need of a rework herself anyway.

Ash could take a few cues from Corvo from Dishonored when it comes to being a teleporting stealth-assassin frame.  Man that game made teleport-murder feel good.

[Nazrethim]

15 minutes ago, Arkvold said:

Personally, I've always felt that Fatal Teleport should've been inherent in Teleport, Teleport should do a single attack of what Bladestorm does now when tapped (and letting you teleport-murder your way around a room if tapped repeatedly, targeting the closest enemy to your reticle each time), and Bladestorm should be changed into something absolutely different.

Maybe a wide, persistent tornado of flying shurikens that damage, strip armor and slash proc victims that stay in it - a literal blade storm.  Kinda like Inaros's sandstorm, only instead of becoming the tornado, you place it down on a spot and then can move and fight around it while it serves as an area-denial zone.  Might be intruding too much into Zephyr's toolkit, but then again Zephyr is in dire need of a rework herself anyway.

Ash could take a few cues from Corvo from Dishonored when it comes to being a teleporting stealth-assassin frame.  Man that game made teleport-murder feel good.

So... a Gate of Babylon, but with shurikens and kunais?

Sounds workable, however it overlaps with Zephyr, as you mentioned, and doesn't fit Ash's theme as a warrior ninja that well. It would fit for a more mage-oriented type of ninja, which Ash isn't.

That is the reason several players, including me, advocate for a Stance Ultimate. It would fit Ash's Ninja Warrior theme, and if done well could be interactive, have synergy, be as destructive or even more than old or current bs, be easier to balance for conclave and Not be a P4TW nor a mindlessly spammy macro-happy ability like Exalted Blade.

Blade Storm, within Warframe's context, could either be a storm of blades or the name of a kickarse Stance.

Picture this: a Stance ultimate modeled after Conclave Stances (short and streamlined combos with defined function each) where the basic combo does jacksquat, the 'pause' combo opens enemies to Finisher attacks, the RMB combo dashes across the battlefied for high mobility and the slide attack is for radial damage. Now add the gimmick that Finisher attacks in this mode allow Ash to kill multiple opponents, either by a Finisher multikill animation or finishers triggering mini-bladestorms causing clones to show up to do Finisher on nearby enemies (essentially Ash finishing 4 enemies per finisher attack). Why only the 'pause' combo would open to Finisher? to give a reason to use it and to give the middle blade to Macro and E Spammers. For similar reasons, make it a Duration based Super mode, opposed to the drain over time quasi-permanent current Exalted Weapons (Exalted weapons remaing as they are, and Ash getting the first true Stance Ultimate where the Stance moves are important). It would also make it a more "finesse over brute force" playstyle, which fits a Ninja.

The marking mode could stay, not as a perk of BS, but as Ash's second passive. By holding RMB Ash could mark enemies for no cost. Shuriken and Teleport getting double functions: Tap to throw a single non-guided powerful piercing shuriken or Teleport to a location triggering a radial stagger with Finisher opening (and FT just forcing the Finisher on the nearest enemy) OR Hold for a fixed 1s (so it's a quick action meant for fast paced combat) to release a barrage of seeking smaller (weaker) shuriken on all marked enemies or start a Teleport chain of attacks (essentially current BS) with whatever melee you have equiped (which could be your melee weapon or Wristblades if you have BS stance active).

And SS becoming an actual Smoke Cloud with the ability to stun/blind enemies inside it, presumably opening them for Finisher attacks.

That way there's synergy, interactivity, virtually nothing of current Ash is scrapped entirely, QoL and ability improvements, not a "press # to win", discourages mindless Macro or E-spam. And the Ultimate could go back to a base 100 energy cost, making it friendly for non-efficiency builds.

 

The Stance itself could be cobbled with Claw, Dual Dagger and Sparring Stance Animations (as Ash has proven to be quite the martial artist during BS cutscenes)

[LAWD]

How about a new augment for Bladestorm that lets you instantly activate and kill everything in the room like before? :P

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

On 5/30/2017 at 10:59 PM, Hypernaut1 said:

They shouldn't butcher Ash for people's personal fan concepts.

Ash is what he is. He should NOT get an entirely different move set. If you don't like him, move on. 

Ash's rework was like Oberons. Keeping the same theme, but with a few tweaks. Even Excalibur kept most of his abilities except the one that wasn't needed anymore because all frames can super jump now. 

If you want an exhalted stance frame, pick Excalibur. If you want WoF pick Ember. 

Ash is fine how he is (for the most part) and very effective in combat and gameplay. 

He is actually NOT fine how he is, not even a little. I thought he was great the way he was.

And as to your 'if you don't like him move on' comment. That's nice and narrow minded towards players that main Ash and are now forced to look elsewhere because of people like you screaming NERF.

[Hypernaut1]

2 hours ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

He is actually NOT fine how he is, not even a little. I thought he was great the way he was.

And as to your 'if you don't like him move on' comment. That's nice and narrow minded towards players that main Ash and are now forced to look elsewhere because of people like you screaming NERF.

I don't see how an Ash main wants his MAIN feature to become a clone of Excalibur. 

Ash is more than capable in all levels of content. Do NOT give him an exalted stance or have him toss out ninja clones like Ember world on fire.

Just no

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

31 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I don't see how an Ash main wants his MAIN feature to become a clone of Excalibur. 

Ash is more than capable in all levels of content. Do NOT give him an exalted stance or have him toss out ninja clones like Ember world on fire.

Just no

I'm sorry but how does me stating that I liked Ash the way he was suddenly make him an Excalibur clone with an exalted stance?

I do like the ninja clone idea better than this ridiculous targeting mechanic that is in place now. It stinks on a controller and it adds to the nausea complaints instead of reduce them.

The only way I use Ash is with a bleed build Atterax and Naramons shadowstep. I literally do not use any of his abilities except his passive and an occasional fatal teleport.

Ash is NOT fine how he is and certainly not compared to what he was. (Granted the old BS being slightly OP yet not significantly more than other 4's)

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 hours ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

I'm sorry but how does me stating that I liked Ash the way he was suddenly make him an Excalibur clone with an exalted stance?

I do like the ninja clone idea better than this ridiculous targeting mechanic that is in place now. It stinks on a controller and it adds to the nausea complaints instead of reduce them.

The only way I use Ash is with a bleed build Atterax and Naramons shadowstep. I literally do not use any of his abilities except his passive and an occasional fatal teleport.

Ash is NOT fine how he is and certainly not compared to what he was. (Granted the old BS being slightly OP yet not significantly more than other 4's)

IDK, I been playing ash ever since he dropped from tyl regor and i think ash is fine we're he is, unlike you I use all of his abilities when they are needed and he does well In high lvl missions, my build only has 115 power strength and steel charge yet my bladestorm can take out lvl 150 corrupted heavy gunners and bombard just fine. Ash is an acquired taste now.

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

5 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

IDK, I been playing ash ever since he dropped from tyl regor and i think ash is fine we're he is, unlike you I use all of his abilities when they are needed and he does well In high lvl missions, my build only has 115 power strength and steel charge yet my bladestorm can take out lvl 150 corrupted heavy gunners and bombard just fine. Ash is an acquired taste now.

Clearly you do know otherwise you wouldn't be arguing my post. Ash BS takes out lvl 150 Bombards at what? 3 marks and a 2x or 3x combocounter ? All at the greatly discounted price of 45 energy for your 3 marks and the precious time it takes to mark him up plus the cutscene time it takes to finish execution.

Additionally Ash doesn't deal the final blow so no trickery procc for you after roughly level 100 if that enemy is at full health.

Soo many frames kill better and faster while Ash is left behind, this is a fact and not an acquired taste.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

Clearly you do know otherwise you wouldn't be arguing my post. Ash BS takes out lvl 150 Bombards at what? 3 marks and a 2x or 3x combocounter ? All at the greatly discounted price of 45 energy for your 3 marks and the precious time it takes to mark him up plus the cutscene time it takes to finish execution.

Additionally Ash doesn't deal the final blow so no trickery procc for you after roughly level 100 if that enemy is at full health.

Soo many frames kill better and faster while Ash is left behind, this is a fact and not an acquired taste.

"If you do not think ash is bad than your not an ash player" really? Do you have any idea how easy it is to get 2x Combo and marking is stupid easy even with a controller (just look left and right)

Oh no bladestorm can't proc trickery too bad ash doesn't have another ability that can oneshot lvl 300 enemies with an augment boohoo.

Pls name me atleast 5-6 frames that can kill lvl 200 enemies with armor faster than ash with their abilities alone

Edited June 7, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

12 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

"If you do not think ash is bad than your not an ash player" really? Do you have any idea how easy it is to get 2x Combo and marking is stupid easy even with a controller (just look left and right)

Oh no bladestorm can't proc trickery to bad ash doesn't have another ability that can oneshot lvl 300 enemies with an augment boohoo.

Pls name me atleast 5-6 frames that can kill lvl 200 enemies with armor with there abilities alone.

 

Other frames: Inaros pocket sand finisher, Ivara sleep arrow finisher, Equinox maim, Banshee sonar, Nova antimatter, Excalibur radial blind and they don't need an augmented ability either plus their abilities benefit the team.

Then there is always a Tigris Prime with a 1 forma bleed build that does it just about as well.

Edited June 7, 2017 by (PS4)vrykolacas82

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

Just now, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

As for other frames: Inaros pocket sand finisher, Ivara sleep arrow finisher, equinox maim, banshee sonar, nova MP and they dont need an augmented ability either.

These frames can certainly kill high lvl enemies but inaros, banshee, Nova, and Equinox will get one-shotted at high lvls, ivara I'm not sure since prowl makes her walk everywhere

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

These frames can certainly kill high lvl enemies but inaros, banshee, Nova, and Equinox will get one-shotted at high lvls, ivara I'm not sure since prowl makes her walk everywhere

Use Naramon Shadowstep, problem solved. Ivara does not break prowl when rolling that may help a bit getting around ( She ain't my favorite but an example)

Also I use 2x Arcane grace on my Inaros so that short of cheats a bit there....

Edited June 7, 2017 by (PS4)vrykolacas82

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

Use Naramon Shadowstep, problem solved

So instead of using an augment they need to use a focus tree to do endgame.... nice

Edited June 7, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

Just now, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

So instead of needing an augment they need to use a focus to do endgame.... nice

Using a Focus is like having another passive and accessible to everyone to boot. Plus endgame is the single most relative thing in this entire game don't you agree?

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 minute ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

Using a Focus is like having another passive and accessible to everyone to boot. Plus endgame is the single most relative thing in this entire game don't you agree?

I do agree, but it just defeats the point of ash being out performed by other frames if they need to use one of the cheesiest focus abilities in the game.