Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Hypernaut1]

19 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

That won't exist anymore. And is a terrible strategy. 

Lol... How is that a terrible strategy?

How is building combo multiplier for BS a bad strategy? Shadow step allows for a cheaper BS. That along with smoke shadow and trickery and Ash stays cloaked.

A lot of playstyles will change with the focus rework. I'm not overly concerned. 

You sound like you just want to yell "WRONG!" at every opportunity without even thinking. Further evidence that you probably don't even try to use BS properly and just whine because it's not a nuke.

At this point, I really can't take you seriously. You just want to be contrarian

Edited September 23, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

9 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Lol... How is that a terrible strategy?

How is building combo multiplier for BS a bad strategy? Shadow step allows for a cheaper BS. That along with smoke shadow and trickery and Ash stays cloaked.

A lot of playstyles will change with the focus rework. I'm not overly concerned. 

You sound like you just want to yell "WRONG!" at every opportunity without even thinking. Further evidence that you probably don't even try to use BS properly and just whine because it's not a nuke

 I'll have your crow battered and deep fried for you after PoE drops. Lol

[Hypernaut1]

16 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

 I'll have your crow battered and deep fried for you after PoE drops. Lol

How does PoE change anything? I'm trying to understand.

There won't be any crow for me to eat. If a change is made, and BS is somehow not usable anymore then I'll speak up. I'm honest with myself. I don't pledge no allegiance to a rework. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Nazrethim]

51 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Lol... How is that a terrible strategy?

How is building combo multiplier for BS a bad strategy? Shadow step allows for a cheaper BS. That along with smoke shadow and trickery and Ash stays cloaked.

It's not a terrible strategy. But it has a two fatal flaws:

A) You rely on a broken Focus passive, which is due to be removed soon. BS doesn't work on it's own, a lot of broken stuff is required for it to work and be decent, not good, just decent.

B) Shadow Step grants a huge damage multiplier that affects melee weapons but not BS, which makes using your melee weapon a much better tool than blade storm, even for clean up.

26 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

 If a change is made, and BS is somehow not usable anymore then I'll speak up. I'm honest with myself. I don't pledge no allegiance to a rework. 

Time will tell. Time will tell. Truth cannot be denied forever.

And by the way nobody asks you to pledge allegiance to any rework, all we ask is for you to see and accept the truth that BS is pointless and needs to be changed drastically into something worth using outside of very specific setups.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

51 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

B) Shadow Step grants a huge damage multiplier that affects melee weapons but not BS, which makes using your melee weapon a much better tool than blade storm, even for clean up.

And you have the ability with SS to stack your combo multiplier vary fast uninterrupted. Which gives your blades storm strength that would not normally be there and sets a false premise.

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

I'm trying to understand.

The problem will occur when BS marking mechanism targets enemies at range you didn't initially set put to target or targeted by accident. And there will be know way of knowing what you marked, which in turn will decimate your energy and there will be know where to hide or no way to disengage from accidental enemy, npc agro.

Edited September 23, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[Gurpgork]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

You can't tell me BS isn't useable when I use it.... Effectively.

I don't think the point was that Blade Storm isn't usable. The point was that Blade Storm doesn't have a purpose.

It's eclipsed by Shuriken in nuking low level targets, it's eclipsed by invisibility and a good melee weapon for dealing with crowds, and it's hilariously eclipsed by Fatal Teleport for dealing with priority targets. So why use it at all? Sure, it absolutely can be effective. It does really good damage. But it's really easy to find things that do comparable amounts of damage (if not more) for vastly less energy and in a vastly smaller amount of time, and unlike Blade Storm, none of them are exclusive to Ash. 

That is the number one problem with Blade Storm. If it cannot do something that gives it a distinct advantage over the rest of Ash's kit, then it's a useless ability. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Gurpgork

[Gurpgork]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

At this point replacing BS with a Stance or making it go back to pre-revisit BS are actually the only paths to properly adressing the sh*t design flaws.

Not necessarily.

I think the current Blade Storm is, on some level, salvageable, but it would have to come with some entirely new animations and suchwhat. 

Step one would be making the attack phase of the ability near-instantaneous. I'm thinking that it would have an animation like Juggernaut's Omnislash from Dota 2. 

Spoiler

^ Like this, only a hell of a lot faster. 

Step two is giving the marks themselves a purpose. Make marked enemies suffer from a slow, some armor removal, susceptibility to damage, just something that makes marking targets functional in of itself.

And step three is tuning the cost. I think there are three ways to go about this: Make the marking phase drain a set amount of energy upfront and marks are free, cap the amount of energy that the ability can drain in total, or make the ability refund energy on kills.

I think those would overall make the ability useful without blatantly replacing it. I am by no means claiming that this would be the best option. It's just something I'm throwing out there. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Gurpgork

[Hypernaut1]

17 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

I don't think the point was that Blade Storm isn't usable. The point was that Blade Storm doesn't have a purpose.

It's eclipsed by Shuriken in nuking low level targets, it's eclipsed by invisibility and a good melee weapon for dealing with crowds, and it's hilariously eclipsed by Fatal Teleport for dealing with priority targets. So why use it at all? Sure, it absolutely can be effective. It does really good damage. But it's really easy to find things that do comparable amounts of damage (if not more) for vastly less energy and in a vastly smaller amount of time, and unlike Blade Storm, none of them are exclusive to Ash. 

That is the number one problem with Blade Storm. If it cannot do something that gives it a distinct advantage over the rest of Ash's kit, then it's a useless ability. 

I guess I'm playing a different game then. In the game I play BS can target multiple enemies for very high ,armor-bypassing, damage. It also returns you to a safe spot, targets flying enemies and provides invulnerability while dealing damage. 

Very few things in this game does more damage to multiple enemies, especially with a combo multiplier.

I'll give you that it's a high cost ability, but I easily manage. 

You guys are just trying to be obtuse. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Nazrethim]

27 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Not necessarily.

I think the current Blade Storm is, on some level, salvageable, but it would have to come with some entirely new animations and suchwhat. 

...

Step two is giving the marks themselves a purpose. Make marked enemies suffer from a slow, some armor removal, susceptibility to damage, just something that makes marking targets functional in of itself.

I could not agree more. In fact my current rework thread is 90% salvage, reorganizing already existing stuff into a more creative and effective way. Somehow it's still "wrong" to some because it features a Stance Ultimate (What about the animations and marking mode? merged with teleport and turned into Ash's second passive respectively. Nothing goes to waste!)

Quote

Step one would be making the attack phase of the ability near-instantaneous. I'm thinking that it would have an animation like Juggernaut's Omnislash from Dota 2. 

  Hide contents

^ Like this, only a hell of a lot faster. 

Or Rogue's Killing Spree, or Fiora's can't-remember-the-name, or Cloud's Omnislash, etc etc.

Another alternative could be Vergil's Judgment Cut End:

Spoiler

 

 

Quote

 

And step three is tuning the cost. I think there are three ways to go about this: Make the marking phase drain a set amount of energy upfront and marks are free, cap the amount of energy that the ability can drain in total, or make the ability refund energy on kills.

That is also an already made suggestion. 100 energy to start marking mode for about 10s. During this timeframe you can mark as much as you please. Press 4 again or let the timer run out to initiate the storm. If kept almost the same mechanically as is now, clones would need to be added to speed things up.

Quote

I think those would overall make the ability useful without blatantly replacing it. I am by no means claiming that this would be the best option. It's just something I'm throwing out there. 

You are right doing so.

The problems of the ability are mostly cost and slowness. Speeding it up (by adding clones, wide area marking) and reducing the cost to that of every other ultimate (100, making it short Duration-based also kicks Fleeting Expertise in the D so the mod goes from mandatory straight upgrade to an optional mod with a drawback)

Also overlap with Teleport, but to fix that it would require massive mechanical changes to the point it may as ell replace the ability entirely.

 

 

 

Edited September 23, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

30 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Not necessarily.

I think the current Blade Storm is, on some level, salvageable, but it would have to come with some entirely new animations and suchwhat. 

Step one would be making the attack phase of the ability near-instantaneous. I'm thinking that it would have an animation like Juggernaut's Omnislash from Dota 2. 

  Hide contents

^ Like this, only a hell of a lot faster. 

Step two is giving the marks themselves a purpose. Make marked enemies suffer from a slow, some armor removal, susceptibility to damage, just something that makes marking targets functional in of itself.

And step three is tuning the cost. I think there are three ways to go about this: Make the marking phase drain a set amount of energy upfront and marks are free, cap the amount of energy that the ability can drain in total, or make the ability refund energy on kills.

I think those would overall make the ability useful without blatantly replacing it. I am by no means claiming that this would be the best option. It's just something I'm throwing out there. 

I like it. Gives marking some purpose. 

Edited September 23, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82
Nvm

[Gurpgork]

8 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Another alternative could be Vergil's Judgment Cut End:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Funny story, I've never even played DMC, and this is almost exactly the visual that I had in my head, down to the cheesy anime freeze-frame that the enemies do before they die. 

11 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I could not agree more. In fact my current rework thread is 90% salvage, reorganizing already existing stuff into a more creative and effective way. Somehow it's still "wrong" to some because it features a Stance Ultimate (What about the animations and marking mode? merged with teleport and turned into Ash's second passive respectively. Nothing goes to waste!)

Personally, I'm still not a very big fan of the stance idea either, but I don't really like stance ultimates in general. I spent the time to build the weapons that I wanted to use and farm their stances, and took the time to get Body Count, Blood Rush, and Condition Overload. I don't like when abilities replace that entirely. 

But I'm starting to think that's far more of a personal nitpick than it is genuinely believing that a stance ultimate isn't the best idea for Ash. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

55 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

I don't think the point was that Blade Storm isn't usable. The point was that Blade Storm doesn't have a purpose.

It's eclipsed by Shuriken in nuking low level targets, it's eclipsed by invisibility and a good melee weapon for dealing with crowds, and it's hilariously eclipsed by Fatal Teleport for dealing with priority targets. So why use it at all? Sure, it absolutely can be effective. It does really good damage. But it's really easy to find things that do comparable amounts of damage (if not more) for vastly less energy and in a vastly smaller amount of time, and unlike Blade Storm, none of them are exclusive to Ash. 

That is the number one problem with Blade Storm. If it cannot do something that gives it a distinct advantage over the rest of Ash's kit, then it's a useless ability. 

 

On 9/9/2017 at 6:11 PM, Nazrethim said:

 

 

 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

14 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Funny story, I've never even played DMC, and this is almost exactly the visual that I had in my head, down to the cheesy anime freeze-frame that the enemies do before they die. 

Personally, I'm still not a very big fan of the stance idea either, but I don't really like stance ultimates in general. I spent the time to build the weapons that I wanted to use and farm their stances, and took the time to get Body Count, Blood Rush, and Condition Overload. I don't like when abilities replace that entirely. 

But I'm starting to think that's far more of a personal nitpick than it is genuinely believing that a stance ultimate isn't the best idea for Ash. 

This was an idea I stumbled upon. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/6u42aq/my_idea_for_a_bladestorm_rework_courtesy_of_nier/ 

Great minds do think alike. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82
Shh

[Nazrethim]

26 minutes ago, Gurpgork said:

Funny story, I've never even played DMC, and this is almost exactly the visual that I had in my head, down to the cheesy anime freeze-frame that the enemies do before they die. 

DMC is a hack&slash arcade game focused on fast paced very stylish combat that merges melee combat, guns, acrobatics and demonic powers into very fluid art. Sounds familiar? xD

Quote

Personally, I'm still not a very big fan of the stance idea either, but I don't really like stance ultimates in general. I spent the time to build the weapons that I wanted to use and farm their stances, and took the time to get Body Count, Blood Rush, and Condition Overload. I don't like when abilities replace that entirely. 

Yes I understand and it's a valid and reasonable point. But honestly I don't like to be stuck on a single mission using only a single melee weapon, if more melee weapons on a loadout aren't an option, a Stance Ultimate will do to add variety to melee combat. Then again, I like DMC, where you can use 1-3 melee weapons (depending on character you're playing as) and you can switch them instantly.

Quote

But I'm starting to think that's far more of a personal nitpick than it is genuinely believing that a stance ultimate isn't the best idea for Ash. 

Not precisely the best. There are other equally good ideas. A stance is just the easiest to implement, both ability mechanics and the combos (which could be cobbled together from Sparring, Claw and Dual Dagger stance combos).

My personal nitpick on it is that the basic E spam combo and the slide attack must be utter sh*t and the combos be the selling point, or using other abilities in tandem with the stance. The point is to avoid Excalibur's situation where activating EB and mashing E is the most effective use of it.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Nazrethim

[Zounderth]

wow.. has it been 1 year and 3 months already since Ash's rework??? WOW ... how time flies huh... and this Mega Thread is still active...  

[Hypernaut1]

4 hours ago, Zounderth said:

wow.. has it been 1 year and 3 months already since Ash's rework??? WOW ... how time flies huh... and this Mega Thread is still active...  

If active, but it's pretty much just a way to contain whiners that still can't come to grips with the rework. It's the same complaints over as over again, despite players informing then how to use bladestorm and be effective.

[TheOnlyWarBear]

13 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If active, but it's pretty much just a way to contain whiners that still can't come to grips with the rework. It's the same complaints over as over again, despite players informing then how to use bladestorm and be effective.

We know how bladestorm is effective, but somebody explain that it isn't the effectiveness that needs a change, it's the mechanics of it. Energy cost is through the roof compared to how slow enemies are killed and while enemies receive massive damage, the efficiency (even with mods) and lack of synergy for his power is what the main complaint is. I don't care about marking enemies, it's not difficult. But I do care about the mass amount of energy needed.

[Shad0wWatcher]

Interesting how this thread is still alive, gotta give people credit for their determination on changing Ash...tho...hm...do the devs even have time for this right now? I mean...currently it's all about Plains of Eidolons. People here wanting Ash to get his deserved love and that's all fine and dandy(i want that as well) but i'm just constantly thinking about how cool it's gonna be to "ninja" my way through the Plains.

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

Interesting how this thread is still alive, gotta give people credit for their determination on changing Ash...tho...hm...do the devs even have time for this right now? I mean...currently it's all about Plains of Eidolons. People here wanting Ash to get his deserved love and that's all fine and dandy(i want that as well) but i'm just constantly thinking about how cool it's gonna be to "ninja" my way through the Plains.

Well, they probably don't have time, but honestly Ash's problems could be adressed in a single hotfix. And the whole mess was DE's fault (well, I say 60 them and 40 sh*tty player feedback, including my own mind you) so we kind of expect them to fix what they broke (and fix the other stuff they promised they would but didn't)

[Shad0wWatcher]

9 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Well, they probably don't have time, but honestly Ash's problems could be adressed in a single hotfix. And the whole mess was DE's fault (well, I say 60 them and 40 sh*tty player feedback, including my own mind you) so we kind of expect them to fix what they broke (and fix the other stuff they promised they would but didn't)

Well man all we can do is hope...and insist...a lot xD

[TheOnlyWarBear]

4 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

Well man all we can do is hope...and insist...a lot xD

That is why I keep saying. If everyone just MENTIONS ash in the next devstream post, we could get some more*insisting* done.

[Nazrethim]

22 minutes ago, Kunsumption said:

That is why I keep saying. If everyone just MENTIONS ash in the next devstream post, we could get some more*insisting* done.

Or flooding their Twitter, or making YT videos explaining how sh*tty it is, or flooding forums, or gathering and singing an Ash themed version of "We are the world"

Spoiler

There comes a time when we heed a certain call

When the tenno must come together as one

There are grineer not dying

And it's time to lend a hand to Ash

the greatest frame of all

We can't go on pretending day by day

That Blade Storm someday soon will  be changed

We're all a part of this great big family

And the truth, you know

a rework is all we need

We are the tenno, we are the ninjas

 

...to be continued

 

Edited October 3, 2017 by Nazrethim

[TheOnlyWarBear]

22 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Or flooding their Twitter, or making YT videos explaining how sh*tty it is, or flooding forums, or gathering and singing an Ash themed version of "We are the world"

  Hide contents

There comes a time when we heed a certain call

When the tenno must come together as one

There are grineer not dying

And it's time to lend a hand to Ash

the greatest frame of all

We can't go on pretending day by day

That Blade Storm someday soon will  be changed

We're all a part of this great big family

And the truth, you know

a rework is all we need

We are the tenno, we are the ninjas

 

...to be continued

 

PUT IT EVERYWHERE lol

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Wasn’t ash prime posed to get a trailer ? As well as a few other primes? Like all brutal honesty nazrethim came up with the best rework so far 

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Wasn’t ash prime posed to get a trailer ? As well as a few other primes? Like all brutal honesty nazrethim came up with the best rework so far 

DE said that they would get to do trailers for previosuly released frames, but they will take time. Look, Hydroid trailer hasn't been released yet!

Patience Tenno. In the meantime you could try to write a script about how the trailer would be. I did it once about 9 months ago, the description of what was happening was good but the Ballas speech I wrote was a bit sh*tty. It compared Ash to a wildfire (more fitting for ember). Here:

Spoiler

*A grineer ship, a platoon of grineer*

Ballas: War, is like a  wildfire, it starts with a spark.

*a Shuriken out of nowhere kills two lancers*

Ballas:it consumes the trees one by one.

*Ash teleports to 3 consecutive enemies killing them*

*A grineer activates the alarm*

Ballas: Until the smoke darkens the sky

*Ash casts a Smoke Screen on an aproaching platoon and pulls out his wristblades*

Ballas: And the flames consume the forest

*Ash teleports inside the cloud*

*Shrouded inside the cloud, multiple instances of Ash can be perceived executing the platoon with the wristblades*

*beat*

Ballas: And when the fire burns out...

*Mutilated corpses fall to the ground at the same time with a sickening sound as the smoke begins to clear*

Ballas:...and the smoke clears...

*the smoke clears, revealing Ash Prime standing with his blades pulled out and dripping blood*

Ballas: ...what remains...

*black screen*

Ballas: ...is Ash

Also, my rework isn't entirely mine either, originally it was really bad and clunky. It's thanks to other Ash fans who gave feedback and suggestions that it became good.