Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

2 minutes ago, Phobonaut said:

Err, have you ever considered that I'd want to play Ash and NOT watch a cutscene? This is important because I can react and plan ahead how I use my 4 so I don't end up dropping out of Bladestorm right next to some Energy Leech Eximi. If you'd actually play Warframe instead of pressing 4 to win, you'd realise there's more to just doing a fuckton of easy damage.

Also Blade Storm puts you back where you started so dropping out would only take you out of harms way... You really don't play Ash at all do you?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

7 minutes ago, Phobonaut said:

have you ever considered that I'd want to play Ash and NOT watch a cutscene? This is important because I can react and plan ahead how I use my 4 so I don't end up dropping out of Bladestorm right next to some Energy Leech Eximi

 

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

Also Blade Storm puts you back where you started so dropping out would only take you out of harms way... You really don't play Ash at all do you?

Ouch. 1 things for sure, he can chat with his clan mates while in auto cut scene afk mode. So planning? Sure. Lol

Edited December 9, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

9 minutes ago, Phobonaut said:

Err, have you ever considered that I'd want to play Ash and NOT watch a cutscene? This is important because I can react and plan ahead how I use my 4 so I don't end up dropping out of Bladestorm right next to some Energy Leech Eximi. If you'd actually play Warframe instead of pressing 4 to win, you'd realise there's more to just doing a fuckton of easy damage.

Also how does Ash do a "fuckton" of damage AND spam 4? those 2 things do not go together at all even before the rework and especially now. Fleeting Expertise reduces power by 60% so either you are spamming and doing very low damage or you are using it once in a blue moon doing a lot of damage. Either way your comments are not lining up to reality. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by (XB1)Natfrog123

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

Fleeting Expertise reduces duration  by 60%

FTFY 

Edited December 9, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

Duration homie. Duration not power. 

Yes you are correct. But still Ash with no duration trickles back into energy conservation with stealth BS reduction. 

But I think I was thinking about Overextend. With no range BS puts you in a bad situation to begin with being to close to combat.

Either way.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

If you use Blind Rage to boost power you def are not casting BS in a spammy way either.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

Yes you are correct. But still Ash with no duration trickles back into energy conservation with stealth BS reduction. 

But I think I was thinking about Overextend. With no range BS puts you in a bad situation to begin with being to close to combat.

Either way.

 

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

If you use Blind Rage to boost power you def are not casting BS in a spammy way either.

Every since the BS NERF I no longer mod for Power Strength or Range. I play Ash mostly for Rescue and Spys. I mod him now for Speed, Duration and FT w/CL. Base range on FT is 50m. So that's plenty for me. But I understand what you're saying. 

Edited December 9, 2017 by (XB1)RDeschain82

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

 

Every since the BS NERF I no longer mod for Power Strength or Range. I play Ash mostly for Rescue and Spys. I mod him now for Speed, Duration and FT w/CL. Base range on FT is 50m. So that's plenty for me. But I understand what you're saying. 

But that is exactly the point of this thread. BS has no real place in this type of game. We simply want it fixed.

 

[blaes]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

Now obviously you are one of the brain dead people that think this game is not extremely god like characters melting enemies in seconds and think somehow you are playing a turn based stategy game.... I mean it's obvious we are not playing the same game.

Thank you so much for that, much laugh was had.

 

for the rest :

the only interest loki has in duration aside from invisibility is decoy, which has a long base duration (25s) meaning duration isn't needed, and low health (200hp 400shield, no armor) meaning he dies in a couple seconds in the second half of the star chart, making duration for decoy even more useless.

so in that regard, loki and ash have about the same need for duration.

secondly, about invisibility and smoke screen : invisibility costs 50 energy and lasts 12s (that's ~4.17 energy/s), SS costs 35 and lasts 8s (that's about 4.37 energy/s). the difference is minimal.

if you can stay invisible all the time with loki, you can do the same with ash. ash is not a "teleporter", he's a stealth based assassin frame. if you choose not to play him that way, that's fine. but that's your choice, dont complain about the consequences.

 

finally :

current bladestorm iteration is bad. that's what i've been saying since it came out. it needs to be changed. but previous iterations were worst than that, and the devs know it. so no matter how much you cry, they're not coming back. so you can either accept that, and make constructive suggestions, or keep crying and be "one of the brain dead people" who only know how to complain.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

6 minutes ago, blaes said:

Thank you so much for that, much laugh was had.

 

for the rest :

the only interest loki has in duration aside from invisibility is decoy, which has a long base duration (25s) meaning duration isn't needed, and low health (200hp 400shield, no armor) meaning he dies in a couple seconds in the second half of the star chart, making duration for decoy even more useless.

so in that regard, loki and ash have about the same need for duration.

secondly, about invisibility and smoke screen : invisibility costs 50 energy and lasts 12s (that's ~4.17 energy/s), SS costs 35 and lasts 8s (that's about 4.37 energy/s). the difference is minimal.

if you can stay invisible all the time with loki, you can do the same with ash. ash is not a "teleporter", he's a stealth based assassin frame. if you choose not to play him that way, that's fine. but that's your choice, dont complain about the consequences.

 

finally :

current bladestorm iteration is bad. that's what i've been saying since it came out. it needs to be changed. but previous iterations were worst than that, and the devs know it. so no matter how much you cry, they're not coming back. so you can either accept that, and make constructive suggestions, or keep crying and be "one of the brain dead people" who only know how to complain.

Except the base problem is we didn't need another Loki frame.... That was the point. We have that already. Ash was unique in the way he was able to be in the thick of a fight and still walk away because he was never really there to begin with. It isn't that stealth and mele isn't strong it's just we already had that. BS is what separated Ash from other stealth frames. 

BS previously was not bad at all with the one exception of enemies being invulnerable which I think everyone agrees was unhealthy. 

[(PSN)DBR87]

On 8/13/2017 at 10:30 PM, (PS4)DBR87 said:

You know, I really like the look of Ash and the rest of his kit is fun. His only short fall is Bladestorm, his 4. Bladestorm, as it is right now, is just a more expensive and more cumbersome version of his Teleport. I just changing Bladestorm into a Tap/Charge ability.

Tapping 4 would make Ash launch a number of extremely fast Shadow Clones in a straight line that inflict Finisher damage to everything 4 meter wide by 15 meter row for 50 Energy. Enemies caught in this attack would be knocked down and suffer bleed procs. Cost 50 energy. Castable in air.

Holding 4 would charge the ability and make the line expand out to a cone up to 180 degrees at max and extend the range to 20 meters. Damage would also increase. During the charge animation all damage from enemy attacks Ash receives is added to Bladestorm's final attack. In the charge stance Ash is immune to status effects. Ash also takes 95% reduced damage while charging Bladestorm (So he doesn't get one shotted in high levels standing there. But really, you could cast Smoke screen ahead of time.) Releasing 4 makes Ash launch Shadow Clones at all enemies in the cone instantly. Ash himself vanishes then reappears and attacks the enemy with the highest remaining health. Each clone attacks one enemy one time. Clones don't attack the enemy with the highest health. Number of Shadow Clones scales with number of enemies. Ash attacks one enemy, and always the enemy with the highest health. Ash attacks do x2 as much as his clones. Ash and Shadow Clones do finisher damage and enemies suffer bleed proc after attacks if they survive.

Bladestorm takes 2 seconds to charge and is affected by Natural Talent. Level 1 is the tap and cost 50 energy. Level 2 is the one second charge and cost 75 energy. Level 3 is the full 2 second charge and cost 100 energy.

This way Bladestorm isn't a cutscene you have to sit and watch. You can tap it quickly kill whatever is in front of you. Of you can charge it to take out a group but still don't have to have to watch Ash poke 20 enemies. Each clone hits one enemy for a ton of damage one time and so does Ash. Nice and quick.

Still want to see a change to Bladestorm. Using it on controller is cumbersome trying swipe left and right on the camera stick to mark enemies. Would also add casting Smoke Screen and being cloaked would reduces the energy cost.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

Hell I will even compromise and take a single mark that makes Ash attack and 2 clone follow his lead for 15 energy reduced by efficency. I'll settle for that over the 3 mark system we have now. The multi marks just need to go because it takes WAY TO LONG to use.

[Phobonaut]

6 hours ago, blaes said:

 

current bladestorm iteration is bad. that's what i've been saying since it came out. it needs to be changed. but previous iterations were worst than that, and the devs know it. so no matter how much you cry, they're not coming back. so you can either accept that, and make constructive suggestions, or keep crying and be "one of the brain dead people" who only know how to complain.

Exactly what I've been trying to explain to this braindead buffoon but I guess his Grineer genetic profile is just too mentally degenerated to understand the point.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb (PS4)DBR87:

Still want to see a change to Bladestorm. Using it on controller is cumbersome trying swipe left and right on the camera stick to mark enemies. Would also add casting Smoke Screen and being cloaked would reduces the energy cost.

The ideal playstyle of his actually includes using his whole kit. No need to be swiping around to mark when they're also applied when you:

Use weapons/melee, there's allways a few enemys that get marked regardless.

Teleport, screen resets and swipes around by itself when you reposition.

Just run around, its range starts at 50m, what makes killing enemys you passed quite possible.

The cost is also balanced by his stats, that allow him to gain energy outside of the invisibility (rage, hunter adrenaline. Playing for armor is not an issue with how little stats it needs.) and to be reduced while inside (smoke bomb, best user of arcane trickery in the game)

 

And the damage/defense ratio is unrivaled when it comes to aoe... try ember or equinox in T3+ content. I dare you.

Seriously tho, the whole point of the rework was to move him away from the typical 360° aimbot theme so many frames share. That 90% of the people who keep pushing this dead thread ask for just that, for change that would support making him a 360° aimbot surely won't do any good. A lil aim assist sure wouldn't hurt, that's true (be it with a small circle or multimarks per marked enemy) but seriously, tf is up with that answer? Do you even do anything but marking? Sure doesn't sound it.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

53 minutes ago, Phobonaut said:

Exactly what I've been trying to explain to this braindead buffoon but I guess his Grineer genetic profile is just too mentally degenerated to understand the point.

Yet you completely ignore when i suggest adding the same mechanics to other frames? Why do you always ignore this? Is it because it just doesn't make for fun game play? Your entire argument is because he has stealth and can mele that blade storm is ok. It is not.

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

Hell I will even compromise and take a single mark that makes Ash attack and 2 clone follow his lead for 15 energy reduced by efficency. I'll settle for that over the 3 mark system we have now. The multi marks just need to go because it takes WAY TO LONG to use.

SEE I don't care if it is weak or strong I care that I can support my allies in battle without face rolling the mele button.

It's not a 360 win button if other frames exist like Chroma and Octavia that can press 1 button and deal an insanely high amount of damage. If it's good for one frame it has to be uniform is my entire point and BS multi-marking is not good for the game period.

[(PSN)DBR87]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The ideal playstyle of his actually includes using his whole kit. No need to be swiping around to mark when they're also applied when you:

Use weapons/melee, there's allways a few enemys that get marked regardless.

Teleport, screen resets and swipes around by itself when you reposition.

Just run around, its range starts at 50m, what makes killing enemys you passed quite possible.

The cost is also balanced by his stats, that allow him to gain energy outside of the invisibility (rage, hunter adrenaline. Playing for armor is not an issue with how little stats it needs.) and to be reduced while inside (smoke bomb, best user of arcane trickery in the game)

 

And the damage/defense ratio is unrivaled when it comes to aoe... try ember or equinox in T3+ content. I dare you.

Seriously tho, the whole point of the rework was to move him away from the typical 360° aimbot theme so many frames share. That 90% of the people who keep pushing this dead thread ask for just that, for change that would support making him a 360° aimbot surely won't do any good. A lil aim assist sure wouldn't hurt, that's true (be it with a small circle or multimarks per marked enemy) but seriously, tf is up with that answer? Do you even do anything but marking? Sure doesn't sound it.

I am not asking for an aimbot, my suggestion would make Blade Storm faster so I don't have to watch a cut scene play out when I do it. I think holding a button for 1 or 2 seconds to charge a skill is a lot quicker then flicking my right thumb left and right a few times to make enemies, especially since I don't put my aim sensitivity to MLG levels. I imagine most players don't. The original complain about Blade Storm was that it was a press 4 to murder everything in with a 10 second cutscene. It still is the longest 4 animation in the game you can't interrupt at will. I shouldn't have to do slide attacks to make the animation go faster. I also understand that Blade Storm shouldn't return to press 4 and murder everything in a 50 meter circle around you. That's why I suggested the tap/charge mechanic.

I mean, if I am going to run up and melee an enemy why even mark them for Blade Storm? I will kill them with my melee. Why even run up to them to melee when I can teleport? And if I am shooting, I am not gonna put two bullets in their head then target another another enemy and shoot him then move to another and shoot them and repeat that until I stacked 3 marks on everyone I wanted. for all that I would have just killed them with my rifle/Bow/shotgun/Opticor. I aim then shoot, not swing my reticle around spraying bullets.

It would be like Frost Wave but instead of ice moving forward it would be a horde of deadly shadow clones.

Other than that, any frame can do Sortie T3 and Mot survival. I have no problems with doing fighting level 100+ enemies with Ember or Equinox. This isn't about difficulty, it's about the execution speed of Blade Storm and the fact it's still a long cut scene.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

" Do you even do anything but marking? Sure doesn't sound it."

Isn't that the gripe of this entire thread is Blade Storm alone?

Everyone can agree 1, 2, and 3 are in a fairly decent place. No one on this thread that i have read yet says they are not if spec'd into them correctly. However Blade Storm, which is Ash's "signature/ultimate" ability is pure garbage in it's current state. You have to take into consideration time versus pay off versus energy expended. Highest energy cost in the game when looking at 20 enemies or more hit. The damage is just not that impressive when you look at reward versus energy.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

I am not asking for an aimbot, my suggestion would make Blade Storm faster so I don't have to watch a cut scene play out when I do it. I think holding a button for 1 or 2 seconds to charge a skill is a lot quicker then flicking my right thumb left and right a few times to make enemies, especially since I don't put my aim sensitivity to MLG levels. I imagine most players don't. The original complain about Blade Storm was that it was a press 4 to murder everything in with a 10 second cutscene. It still is the longest 4 animation in the game you can't interrupt at will. I shouldn't have to do slide attacks to make the animation go faster. I also understand that Blade Storm shouldn't return to press 4 and murder everything in a 50 meter circle around you. That's why I suggested the tap/charge mechanic.

I mean, if I am going to run up and melee an enemy why even mark them for Blade Storm? I will kill them with my melee. Why even run up to them to melee when I can teleport? And if I am shooting, I am not gonna put two bullets in their head then target another another enemy and shoot him then move to another and shoot them and repeat that until I stacked 3 marks on everyone I wanted. for all that I would have just killed them with my rifle/Bow/shotgun/Opticor. I aim then shoot, not swing my reticle around spraying bullets.

It would be like Frost Wave but instead of ice moving forward it would be a horde of deadly shadow clones.

Other than that, any frame can do Sortie T3 and Mot survival. I have no problems with doing fighting level 100+ enemies with Ember or Equinox. This isn't about difficulty, it's about the execution speed of Blade Storm and the fact it's still a long cut scene.

Wouldn't it be so fun if Hydroid had to "mark" targets? Add that every enemy marked cost extra energy. Maybe the same should be done with radial blind. Hell make every skill that has auto targeting use the "mark" system that Ash currently has. It is only fair right?

[(PSN)DBR87]

I don't even care about the damage I just want the cut scene gone and the stupid marking system to go away. The original intent of the rework was to get rid of the cut scene for those who used it, and it stopping the kill stealing for team mates. It did one thing, kill stealing is down in a PVE game. Fine, now get rid of the "Okay, I marked all the enemies, time to make a sandwich" cut scene.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

What really gets me though is they say this is a great thing for Ash but no other AoE frame has to do this. I say make it uniform and screw up their favorite caster frame that they use for hours on end and see how appealing it is to slow down the pace of their game play for once.

Hell DE should do this for 24 hours just to get proper feed back. Every frame has to "mark" targets and there is NO "aimbot" mechanics at all for 24 hours.

[(PSN)DBR87]

Yeah, it's dumb. I don't care if I have to aim the skill; I will be happy to... But WHY do I have to individually mark targets one by one and THEN they only get one mark per pass?

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

I love people showing up telling me I dumb but yet turn around and say that BS is not very good and still offer no solution to fix it. Typical SJWs man.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

Yeah, it's dumb. I don't care if I have to aim the skill; I will be happy to... But WHY do I have to individually mark targets one by one and THEN they only get one mark per pass?

I honestly have NO idea who tested this or thought this was "good" for Ash but they need never touch ash again and pass it over to someone who really LOVES the frame.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb (PS4)DBR87:

 

Bullets fall off, they're affected by armor and don't scale how melee does. Melee is miles away but it requires you to run up or teleport to enemys. Bladestorm makes up for that in a way by the point you can hit enemys, hard, with the most effective damage type in the game, scaling off of combo too, that can be up to 50m away. The marking doesn't even prevent it  from targeting an entire Horde when S#&$ hits the fan... remove any of that, be it the targeting or the animation and you have the most overpowered ability in the game and that's really all people keep asking for in here.

That or for him to be an o.p. clone of something else. I mean is that really the way to go at a frame? To fully ignore how he's played, what he has and then complaining about the way he's balanced? By constantly complaining about the one thing that's unique to him? If you're looking for somthing else entirely, play something else. It's not ashs fault that he doesn't fit your playstyle.

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Bullets fall off, they're affected by armor and don't scale how melee does. Melee is miles away but it requires you to run up or teleport to enemys. Bladestorm makes up for that in a way by the point you can hit enemys, hard, with the most effective damage type in the game, scaling off of combo too, that can be up to 50m away. The marking doesn't even prevent it  from targeting an entire Horde when S#&$ hits the fan... remove any of that, be it the targeting or the animation and you have the most overpowered ability in the game and that's really all people keep asking for in here.

That or for him to be an o.p. clone of something else. I mean is that really the way to go at a frame? To fully ignore how he's played, what he has and then complaining about the way he's balanced? By constantly complaining about the one thing that's unique to him? If you're looking for somthing else entirely, play something else. It's not ashs fault that he doesn't fit your playstyle.

Assuming you mean Finisher damage? Maybe check Hydroid and his execution and his DPS in conjunction with energy cost. Sure maybe he hits each enemy for 200 damage but he can hit 15 enemies or more at any given time not to mention when multiple tentacles hit a single enemy. All this doesn't even matter when you look at armor stripping capabilities but for the sake of this I will exclude all of that. Blade Storm does not wipe 4500 lvl enemy maps faster than Octavia's Mallet. In fact BS does jack all to those enemies. So to say it would be the best damage in the game is not even close to reality. BS cannot kill anywhere near as fast as Excalibur who just has to press 4 and slowly watch his energy drain.BS does not kill anywhere near as fast as Ice Chroma. BS does not kill anywhere near as fast as Sleep Equinox. The list can go on and on but yet here you are spouting nonsense. DPS is measure in time not a single blow or a single burst. If you spec for power on Ash then sure you have a single skill use nuke. Hands down no questions asked. But you can only use it maybe once. If you use Steel Charge chances are you will be running around doing nothing but spamming mele as your BS cost is WAY to high to use it effectively in a horde game. If you spec for efficency then you have no stealth duration which mean no close combat for you on anything over lvl 25 unless you have a healer or pods which we are going to exclude because it has nothing to do with Ash's core.