Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Irorone]

Just now, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

nope. he was a swordsman before and after the rework. the changes just show the theme better.

Yeah he is and was but his ult used to be radial javelin.  JAVELIN, so making his ult sword based was a for theme change.

[izzatuw]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

nope. he was a swordsman before and after the rework. the changes just show the theme better.

Arguably half true. Excalibur was initially considered a scout by DE.

[NyxCrab]

Bladestorm still has it's forced slash procs and armor ignoring damage, so it's great vs crowds with a lot of extremely tanky enemies like bombards and heavy gunners. It's not longer a press 4 to clear a whole room while making enemies invincible, but press 4 to take out a smaller crowd of tankier enemies without screwing over your allies. Of course if you have a dagger + fatal teleport this point is kinda moot but there still is some usage to it, especially if you want to go full weeb ninja and use a weapon like the Nikana.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, Irorone said:

Yeah he is and was but his ult used to be radial javelin.  JAVELIN, so making his ult sword based was a for theme change.

...i'm not sure you understand. how can you agree with me about his theme being consistent and then disagree?

[Nazrethim]

26 minutes ago, Mints said:

 All three of these abilities synergize and turn Ash into a melee powerhouse that can drop 30,000+ damage with one slide attack.

Post-rework Ash works fine and brings plenty to the table. You just can't adapt.

Someone who gets the fact that Ash is a melee oriented frame. You sir deserve a praise.

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, Irorone said:

 

How does single target cost more exactly? One enemy mark out of stealth is base 15. And like I said already, if you're striking only one enemy, Teleport has always been better.

More keystrokes as in literally one more? Can you upload a video of you using Bladestorm? I honestly want to see what makes it tedious to use when you can literally just wave your mouse around your screen. Which is a separate issue that has to do with the supposed improved interactivity by DE.

As far as DoTs go, the only thing that compares to Bladestorm is the Atterax End Game build.

Bladestorm having an iteration similar to WoF came before this current rework. It was spoken about in at least two devstreams. If you ever have a few days off I suggest going through them all. You can see the true ups and downs of DE as a whole. 

I agree though about quoting on here, it's really shoddy.

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

if she was invisioned to be some kind of mage and thats been retained it's proving my point. abilites can be added or removed so long as the idea/fantasy of the frame stays consistent. and from where im sitting it seems all reworks have done that.

Devs aren't perfect obviously. You can envision something to be a support as a dev for example, only to have it end up as a tank.

Nekros was designed to be for CC and aggro aversion, yet ended up as a loot-bot for the past two years until his most recent changes.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Just now, izzatuw said:

Arguably half true. Excalibur was initially considered a scout by DE.

quote?

[NativeKiller]

Post-"rework" Ash: IMMA USE MY BLADESTORM! ...Just let me finish tagging my targets, _please.

 

RATTA-TAT-TATTA-TAT-TAT-TAT-TAT!

 

*enemies are all ded

 

Mesa: Oh, sorry, you were saying? :3

 

TL;DR: Bladestorm is dead, if you ask me.

Edited December 5, 2016 by NativeKiller

[NyxCrab]

Just now, NativeKiller said:

Post-"rework" Ash: Imma use my BLADESTORM! ...Just let me finish tagging my targets.

 

RATTA-TAT-TATTA-TAT-TAT-TAT-TAT!

 

*enemies are all ded

 

Mesa: You were saying? :3

 

TL;DR: Bladestorm is dead, if you ask me.

It's not dead, but it's really slow to use, especially when enemies get tankier so you have to wait out the marks to get 3 marks for maximum damage on like a corrupted bombard.

[Irorone]

Just now, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

...i'm not sure you understand. how can you agree with me about his theme being consistent and then disagree?

I'm not sure you do.  I was referring to changing his ult from Radial JAVELIN to EB.  You took my previous statement and interpreted it as a whole, complete, theme change.  My point of view hasn't changed.

[izzatuw]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

quote?

 

[NativeKiller]

6 minutes ago, NyxCrab said:

It's not dead, but it's really slow to use, especially when enemies get tankier so you have to wait out the marks to get 3 marks for maximum damage on like a corrupted bombard.

Yeah, I was just exaggerating. :D

 

Strictly speaking, it's not "actually" dead but only "barely clinging onto life" dead. :3

Edited December 5, 2016 by NativeKiller

[Irorone]

Just now, NyxCrab said:

It's not dead, but it's really slow to use, especially when enemies get tankier so you have to wait out the marks to get 3 marks for maximum damage on like a corrupted bombard.

It's not a bad power but it's fairly less useful than it was.  Pretty much the rework took his ult out of popular consideration and now ash builds basically stack long invis duration (less than loki but oh well) and fatal teleport with bladestorm ironically serving as the side dish.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 minute ago, GreyEnneract said:

How does single target cost more exactly? One enemy mark out of stealth is base 15. And like I said already, if you're striking only one enemy, Teleport has always been better.

More keystrokes as in literally one more? Can you upload a video of you using Bladestorm? I honestly want to see what makes it tedious to use when you can literally just wave your mouse around your screen. Which is a separate issue that has to do with the supposed improved interactivity by DE.

As far as DoTs go, the only thing that compares to Bladestorm is the Atterax End Game build.

Bladestorm having an iteration similar to WoF came before this current rework. It was spoken about in at least two devstreams. If you ever have a few days off I suggest going through them all. You can see the true ups and downs of DE as a whole. 

I agree though about quoting on here, it's really shoddy.

Devs aren't perfect obviously. You can envision something to be a support as a dev for example, only to have it end up as a tank.

Nekros was designed to be for CC and aggro aversion, yet ended up as a loot-bot for the past two years until his most recent changes.

eh. I half agree. though just because the community chose to use him differently doesn't mean the vision behind the design is suddenly invalid. terify still is and was cc. and his risen dead do draw attention. allbeit not consistent enough. probs why they made that augment for his 4.

[NyxCrab]

Just now, Irorone said:

It's not a bad power but it's fairly less useful than it was.  Pretty much the rework took his ult out of popular consideration and now ash builds basically stack long invis duration (less than loki but oh well) and fatal teleport with bladestorm ironically serving as the side dish.

tbh I think it's best usage atm is with the Rising Storm augment and playing Ash as a melee frame, using Rising Storm every now and then to keep your combo counter up or deal some quick damage to tankier units by pressing 4, quickly sweeping over them and pressing 4 again, then going back into your invis and using your extended combo counter to deal with them. It's really great on the Venka Prime.

[izzatuw]

1 minute ago, NyxCrab said:

tbh I think it's best usage atm is with the Rising Storm augment and playing Ash as a melee frame, using Rising Storm every now and then to keep your combo counter up or deal some quick damage to tankier units by pressing 4, quickly sweeping over them and pressing 4 again, then going back into your invis and using your extended combo counter to deal with them. It's really great on the Venka Prime.

Requiring an augment to make it viable is not a good argument.

[GreyEnneract]

1 minute ago, NyxCrab said:

tbh I think it's best usage atm is with the Rising Storm augment and playing Ash as a melee frame, using Rising Storm every now and then to keep your combo counter up or deal some quick damage to tankier units by pressing 4, quickly sweeping over them and pressing 4 again, then going back into your invis and using your extended combo counter to deal with them. It's really great on the Venka Prime.

This is basically how I used it before and now after the rework.

[Hypernaut1]

Marking happens pretty fast, I can run through a room without aiming, hit 4 and kill all of those enemies and be teleported back to doorway and continue on my way.

I can mark a bunch of enemies, revive a teammate, then kill those marked enemies without turning around. That just feels totally bad &#!. 

I can sweep a bunch of flying drones or poison infested, and kill them faster than I could while aiming at each one.

I know people love their tonkor, but besides that, i find that BS can kill multiple enemies across a wider range faster than aiming at everything. I don't understand why people keep saying it's slower. 

I also feel that the new BS gives Ash that assassin feel. I like wildly parkouring around a room giving marks and activating it mid air, killing enemies before I hit the ground. Old BS could only do this in one area.

[NyxCrab]

1 minute ago, izzatuw said:

Requiring an augment to make it viable is not a good argument.

It's not, but there's a lot of abilities or frames that would be weak without augments. Nekros for example pretty much revolves around needing augment for specific builds and his passive is based around his Despoil augment, Banshee performs a lot better with her Resonance augment, Ember needs Firequake for higher level content because her damage drops off hard vs things that aren't most infested, etc. Blade Storm is viable without the augment, but the augment allows for a more melee oriented playstyle, but it isn't needed to make it good.

[izzatuw]

Just now, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

best and viable are not terms that can be accurately be interchanged. This reply is a strawman.

I noticed. However, augments are supposed to compliment an already good ability. Just like Irradiating Disarm makes RD a better ability. 

[NyxCrab]

1 minute ago, Mints said:

Here's another obvious reason this guy has absolutely no idea what he's talking about folks. It's perfectly easy to keep a combo counter rolling indefinitely without the augment as long as you've got Body Count on your weapon, which you should if you're going to be using Ash. I've mentioned this multiple times in this thread and he just keeps pretending as if it never happened.

I think you replied to the wrong guy as I was the one who mentioned the augment, but whatever. Rising Storm complements Body Count and Drifting Contact, as the bonus duration on Body Count is taken into account for Rising Storm so it means during periods where you can't quite hit anyone with your melee you aren't at quite as large of a risk of losing your bonus. Plus, considering it adds to the counter and can add it really quickly it can be good for getting to the higher damage multipliers quicker. Obviously it's a pretty gimmicky build, but it works for me and it's made Ash fun.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

7 minutes ago, izzatuw said:

I noticed. However, augments are supposed to compliment an already good ability. Just like Irradiating Disarm makes RD a better ability. 

which is you implying that BS isn't good. when plenty of people explained why it is and you just don't want to agree.

[Irorone]

31 minutes ago, GreyEnneract said:

How does single target cost more exactly? One enemy mark out of stealth is base 15. And like I said already, if you're striking only one enemy, Teleport has always been better.

More keystrokes as in literally one more? Can you upload a video of you using Bladestorm? I honestly want to see what makes it tedious to use when you can literally just wave your mouse around your screen. Which is a separate issue that has to do with the supposed improved interactivity by DE.

As far as DoTs go, the only thing that compares to Bladestorm is the Atterax End Game build.

Bladestorm having an iteration similar to WoF came before this current rework. It was spoken about in at least two devstreams. If you ever have a few days off I suggest going through them all. You can see the true ups and downs of DE as a whole. 

I agree though about quoting on here, it's really shoddy.

Devs aren't perfect obviously. You can envision something to be a support as a dev for example, only to have it end up as a tank.

Nekros was designed to be for CC and aggro aversion, yet ended up as a loot-bot for the past two years until his most recent changes.

Because 45 energy base for three attacks base means that you simply got less hits than old bladestorm.  We're comparing old bladestorm vs. new bladestorm so I of course DIDN'T INCLUDE A POWER THAT CAN SYNERGIZE FOR AN INSTANT INFINITELY SCALING SINGLE TARGET KILL.

Activate bladestorm one press, wave mouse let's just call that another press for the sake of counting inputs especially if flicking your mouse around is now a requirement for getting anywhere near as many active marks as old bladestorm, actually activating bladestorm marks later for a third press, so three inputs per cycle when before all you had to was press four when you had an enemy in the crosshair.  We're talking new bladestorm vs. old bladestorm, that's not a seperate issue.  Of course let's not forget all the keypressing involved to actually stay alive between storms (effectively smoke bomb casting).

Have you ever heard of Saryn?  Because my guess is no.  Unless we're talking specifically bleed DoTs triggered by an ult than in which case I have one word for you, Maim.  Before you mention how you have to kill things with weapons before maim can do its damage let me just point that in terms of flat damage weapons VASTLY outclass powers right now unless we're talking powers that basically are weapons.

Um no, they were batting about the idea of making bladestorm like WoF and that's what was mentioned on devstreams.  So unless we're talking some earlier closed beta bladestorm than bladestorm has never had an in game variation like WoF.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Irorone

[Mints]

13 minutes ago, NyxCrab said:

I think you replied to the wrong guy as I was the one who mentioned the augment, but whatever. Rising Storm complements Body Count and Drifting Contact, as the bonus duration on Body Count is taken into account for Rising Storm so it means during periods where you can't quite hit anyone with your melee you aren't at quite as large of a risk of losing your bonus. Plus, considering it adds to the counter and can add it really quickly it can be good for getting to the higher damage multipliers quicker. Obviously it's a pretty gimmicky build, but it works for me and it's made Ash fun.

Your post was accurate and detailed a viable way of making Bladestorm useful post-rework. Your method is actually quite similar to mine, even if you achieve it in a somewhat different way using the augment. He was the one that used the words "Requiring an augment to make it viable is not a good argument." My point is that it doesn't need that augment to make it viable. Bladestorm adds multiple hits to the combo counter per attack and this can be utilized to create a lot of high damage melee crits in an extremely short amount of time. Bladestorm makes it possible to hit a 2x Combo Counter in a very short amount of time. Combine that with a high crit chance and high crit damage melee weapon (with Blood Rush) and Ash shreds everything in front of him to pieces.

Throw Rage on him and put Life Strike on the melee weapon for good measure. Hell I'm pretty sure Fatal Teleport procs Life Strike as long as you're channeling when you do it. You could use that to your advantage instead of Rising Storm. There's lots of ways to build Ash and make him useful in high level content. He's just not broken anymore.

Edited December 5, 2016 by Mints

[izzatuw]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

which is you implying that BS isn't good. when plenty of people explained why it is and you just don't want to agree.

Let's stop assuming we're both in the vocal majority. There's as many people agreeing that it is a good ult rework as there is bad. How about that?