Could Warframe learn from Dark Souls?

[VonDodo]

No please no.

Dark Souls was a coincidence and misunderstanding.

Its just an old game (King's field) adapted to modern standards that thanks to clunky animation and unbalanced gameplay resulted to be difficult to certain players.

Basically the Whole game is based on memorizing the really poor scripts of enemies and answering them with a character with serious issue to perform even the simplest movement.

 

Note that once you adapt you can complete Whole game naked with a stick -.-

They also tweaked damage in order to create artificial difficulty otherwise the game would just be another DMC.

 

 

WF is about space ninja and agility, the opposite of DS.

[Kagisnad]

warframe is horde mode

dark souls is every mob counts

i mean, i'd be ecstatic if they took the "every mob counts" route, but i doubt it. many people like horde mode.

[Siekier]

4 hours ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

while he isn't saying waframe should be DS, i've seen where this kind of thinking leads to, and it usually leads to a complete bastardization of the original game, having little of it's old personality , for examples, games like the joy of creation: reborn, which is just a slender clone with a FNAF paint job, and resident evil 7, which is more generic indie horror game than classic resident evil

take a look at a game like fallout 4:

while i prefer the elder scrolls (oblivion's "shivering isles" main questline being the best thing to come out of the series) , i can still respect the following the fallout series has (not to mention the absolutely awesome modding community bethesda games have), but unfortunately, with people preaching some variation of "omg why can't bethesda be more like bioware or cd projekt red, aggghhhhh!!!", we eventually got fallout 4, which replaced the freedom when roleplaying and a deep character skill and perk system with a modified version of the plot of taken, the inabilty  to really deal with a lot of situations without a shootout ensuing, and an oversimplified skill system (if you can call it that)

you see, we should focus on what a games does successfully, not just have a game fill some arbitrary quota or answer the question "do you have what this other game has?", i'm not against a game evolving, but if evolution means shamelessly taking things from other games and lose what made it great to begin with, then count me out

First, you need to chill out.

Second, this is like the worst example ever. You think Fallout 4 is what it is (glorified Skyrim set in Fallout universe) because it was supposed to be similar to games made by CDP Red and Bioware? What?

There are no similarities whatsoever to games made by those developers you mentioned, if anything FO4 just screams "Bethesda" while it's awfully watered down, any depth was removed from it (dialogues are S#&$, character progression is S#&$, even voice acting is meh - you hear the same voices all the time).

If it was really influenced by CDP and Bioware, we would have much better dialogues (with actual choices and not yes/no/I dunno/sarcasm options that all come down to the same result), more complex and interesting characters, better plot etc.

Your whole tantrum argument is based on "don't copy said game ffs". Nobody is suggesting copying some other game, nobody is saying that Warframe should be turned to Dark Souls. It's more about seeing what other developers did really well and thinking if we could improve our game based on their experience.

[Ailissa]

11 hours ago, (PS4)CaptainIMalik said:

Imagine invading other peoples worlds lol.

PvP is the least popular concept in Warframe.

 

The majority of the player base are pure PvE players.

 

What would happen if invasions like that were a thing is you'd end up with an exodus of people leaving the game.

[(XBOX)PompousNinja156]

11 hours ago, Heckzu said:

Dark Souls is meant to be a single-player RPG where you play as a mediocre character struggling to survive through Hell.

Warframe is a co-op TPS where you play as an overpowered war machine.

Exactly what would you think you implement from Dark Souls into Warframe without it ending up just as easy or boring as the regular content we have?

A well fleshed out Melee combat system as a direct improvement over our present "Spam one button" approach.

I'd prefer a DmC style take here though, where movement, combos, and aerial attacks flow smoothly between each other.  

[Zaitsiev]

Am I the only one that did not like how Dark Souls narrated its story? I mean, most of the time it was so vague, that I wanted to investigate some more, and after reading theories and ideas from different people, and combining those ideas with those of my own, I ended up discovering that which appeared to be a deep lore of the game, it was in fact a great amount of random stuff organized in a way to intrigue you into keep investigating, until you find out that in the end, there are no answers for anything, and it felt only as an excuse to make the player play more.

Also, Warframe is going for a similar story telling (I'm surprised that no one seems to notice that), but the main difference that it Has with Dark souls, is that at least they gave us a reason for why we don't know S#&$, and they are also giving us some stuff that, at least until now, it's moderately reliable instead of random nonsense that jumps from one place to another without any warning.

Or at least I feel it that way, I don't know the rest of you.

[Separius]

12 hours ago, (PS4)CaptainIMalik said:

I think they really could. Maybe there's some inspiration but I think they could benifit a lot from Dark Souls. From bosses to a lot of things. Dark Souls has good bosses, DE could take things like that.

 

Imagine invading other peoples worlds lol.

If all bosses were as hard / puzzley as Kela, I'd be happy.

And I'm pretty sure we'll eventually get Stalker mode 1v4 pvp.

[Berserkerkitten]

I love Dark Souls. I love Warframe. I also love ice cream and I love bacon, but I wouldn't want one of them to be more like the other.

Dark Souls gives you this sense of dread and crushing despair. It goes out of its way to murder you and punishes you if you're careless and unaware of your surroundings. At least until you memorize everything and get a weapon, which staggers and/or oneshots everything, but that's not really how you play it for a long while. I feel that Warframe is the exact opposite. It's a power fantasy. In Warframe, the bad guys are scared of you. They try to lock you out, they put up barricades, they're the ones hiding behind waist-high videogame cover while you have the power to eradicate them with the push of a button. 

I don't think 'boss with oversized life bar, who can basically onehit you if you miss a telegraphed attack' is something Warframe needs to copy. Though there's a Kela assassination sortie up right now, so that experience can come close at times. :D

I also prefer Warframe's direct method of storytelling, even if there's a bunch of lame expository dialogue ("Blah, blah, blah Orokin Alad V") and Rebecca can't voice-act to save her life. At least not every single character on here ends every dialogue in creepy laughter.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Berserkerkitten

[Culaio]

6 hours ago, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

while he isn't saying waframe should be DS, i've seen where this kind of thinking leads to, and it usually leads to a complete bastardization of the original game, having little of it's old personality , for examples, games like the joy of creation: reborn, which is just a slender clone with a FNAF paint job, and resident evil 7, which is more generic indie horror game than classic resident evil

take a look at a game like fallout 4:

while i prefer the elder scrolls (oblivion's "shivering isles" main questline being the best thing to come out of the series) , i can still respect the following the fallout series has (not to mention the absolutely awesome modding community bethesda games have), but unfortunately, with people preaching some variation of "omg why can't bethesda be more like bioware or cd projekt red, aggghhhhh!!!", we eventually got fallout 4, which replaced the freedom when roleplaying and a deep character skill and perk system with a modified version of the plot of taken, the inabilty  to really deal with a lot of situations without a shootout ensuing, and an oversimplified skill system (if you can call it that)

you see, we should focus on what a games does successfully, not just have a game fill some arbitrary quota or answer the question "do you have what this other game has?", i'm not against a game evolving, but if evolution means shamelessly taking things from other games and lose what made it great to begin with, then count me out

Its kinda ironic because biowere and especially cd project red make games closer story-wise(more engaging story) to fallout games that people love then bethesda does, both biowere and cd project red make games where choices matter and much more frequently have choice to avoid combat, those are things that people wanted from fallout 4

1 hour ago, (XB1)PompousNinja156 said:

A well fleshed out Melee combat system as a direct improvement over our present "Spam one button" approach.

I'd prefer a DmC style take here though, where movement, combos, and aerial attacks flow smoothly between each other.  

Sadly DE doesnt seem to want to give us option to quickly switch  weapons so we could do combo's with them. Dunno if its true but one of veterans in community told me that people asked for faster switching of weapons like in DMC but supposedly DE said that it isnt type of game they are trying to make. and are against it.

 

I Personally think that DE does imitate souls game slightly at least with one thing: more and more  weapons poses special function(alt fire) which remind me of weapon arts from DS 3, personally I hope that they will continue with it, and while I dont want weapons to steal spotlight from abilities of warframe, I think that they could have ability like powers, that are weaker and/or need specific conditions for example having sword that releases shockwave(like exaclibur) when using charge attack, it couldnt be spammed like excalibur ult so it wouldnt steal spotlight from it, and it that was still too much then it could need special bar to be filled up first before activation(like syndicate weapons have)

[Berserkerkitten]

28 minutes ago, Culaio said:

Personally think that DE does imitate souls game slightly at least with one thing: more and more  weapons poses special function(alt fire) which remind me of weapon arts from DS 3

Cmon now, weapons with alternate firing modes were waaaaaaaay before Dark Souls was even a thing. One fine example would be the Unreal series, which DE used to work on.

[Corue]

I've never played Dark Souls but it looks like the kind of game where you have to take your time, tread carefully, and learn from your mistakes.

Warframe, however, is just you blowing up rooms and filling enemies with so many bullets that they die of lead poisoning.

They don't sound very compatible.

[Culaio]

7 hours ago, Berserkerkitten said:

Cmon now, weapons with alternate firing modes were waaaaaaaay before Dark Souls was even a thing. One fine example would be the Unreal series, which DE used to work on.

I mostly meant melee weapons. I know there is a lot of games with guns with alt fire.

[Berserkerkitten]

32 minutes ago, Culaio said:

I mostly meant melee weapons. I know there is a lot of games with guns with alt fire.

My mistake, sorry. You're right about that. I'd like for the melee to be a little more like in the Souls games. :)

[(PSN)Stanicek3]

21 hours ago, Venom-Snake said:

Well, play Sorties without Redirection, Vitality and Steel Fiber (No mods at all really), no Gear or Companions, only use the first power, Solo and use melee only.

  Hide contents

Prepare to Die

 

Tbh I'd do that if it was Lephantis or Phorid

[(PSN)Dervicus]

22 hours ago, (PS4)CaptainIMalik said:

 

This is true. Dark souls keeps the lore vague or open to interpretation, you're just put into a place and know nothing about it. It makes you want to know what's going on. DE is doing this to a degree I'd say so far playing this, adding lore to every weapon would sort of be like a treasure in finding lore to a place I guess to say.

The codex has so much lore if you care to read it. Have you collected the cephalon fragments?

[EmptyDevil]

Almost all games could learn something from another game. I seen a few games that seem to have something that looks like it was inspired from another. Titanfall 2 seems to have some Warframe inspired things in it, last i saw.

[Vesiga]

On 11/28/2016 at 5:37 PM, (PS4)mr_chainsaw555 said:

you try having this kind of BS preached to you to no end, droning on about how warframe should be like *insert game of the week* like your parents moaning to you about why you should be more like your overachiever brother/sister

You talk as if he was directing this thread to you, you could have easily scrolled past the thread lol. Just forget and move on, who really cares. You put down and waste so much time on an idea thatll end up in the depths of the forums just as many others. Either humor the idea or go somewhere else.

[WhisperByte]

22 hours ago, Evanescent said:

I think animation and weapon design wise, there's a lot to learn from Bloodborne.

Each weapon in BB feels unique, from design to animations to function. When you use a motherf***ing hammer, you really FEEL that mother f***ing hammer. You feel the power. Enemies you hit react in a way that's satisfying and reinforces the power of your weapon. From how the character animations alter to show that weight to how it affects enemies and the world, it's made clear that this huge weapon really is huge, and it's powerful. Then when you use the threaded cane, it's a different experience-it's light and fast. Completely different in how it cuts enemies and how it handles. Then you have madness in the form of the whirlygig saw. Wat. Yes. YES PLEASE.

Weapons in Warframe have a pleasing aesthetic, but in terms of handling and enemy feedback they aren't there yet. It doesn't feel good when you spin the heavy Fragor prime like a toothpick and enemies shrug off blows that should be crushing them. They don't react to your cuts or your strikes as they should, and your weapons aren't convincing in their weight and handling, which often breaks the immersion.

I don't think it would work in WF. I think the nature and the pace of the game and stat based weapon handling just does not allow that.

I mean, look at the old Scindo or Gram (or Galatine charge attacks before Melee 2.0)  before Berserker existed. Those were slow attacking but powerful weapons and (mostly thanks to screenshake) you could feel the power of each swing. Or how satisfying it felt to blast a mook away with Jatt Kitty or a shot from Hek. Then came Berserker and the whole crit-or-gtfo meta and it's all gone unless you want to gimp yourself.

 

Anyway, there's a nice video I watched yesterday about adding the weight to weapon attacks which explains how well it works in Monster Hunter and  Soulsbourne games and why I don't think it can work in Warframe (the Smash Bros examples in this vid)

 

[Guest]

On 11/28/2016 at 8:07 PM, Venom-Snake said:

Well, play Sorties without Redirection, Vitality and Steel Fiber (No mods at all really), no Gear or Companions, only use the first power, Solo and use melee only.

  Hide contents

Prepare to Die

 

 

[EmptyDevil]

1 hour ago, TheDefenestrater said:

-snip-

What was your purpose in linking this as a reply to his post? The Nyx in that video is fully modded, has a companion, and not using the 1st power. It's using the 4th power with a very powerful augment combined with 600 energy.

[Lanadra]

I don't think we need a hardcore ''git gud'' mentality here.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, EmptyDevil said:

What was your purpose in linking this as a reply to his post? The Nyx in that video is fully modded, has a companion, and not using the 1st power. It's using the 4th power with a very powerful augment combined with 600 energy.

My point is that this game is a bit of a sandbox where you make your own fun.  If you want to walk through a mission unarmed, go for it...  If you want to kill all the bosses with unmodded, unranked MK-1 gear, you can probably do that to.

The enemy design in this game is very simplistic by necessity of the host-client design limiting AI resources and the seemingly endless power creep making health-gating a requirement.  If DE wanted to throw in massive monster battles and super-challenging bosses, they could probably do it.  But, it'd probably interact in a really funny way with warframe powers, such that only a select few would actually be useful for the fight.  This game's a horde shooter with player abilities designed around that.  Bosses have been sort of shoe-horned into it and still the most dangerous content for most players is Assassin type enemies such as the G3 and Stalker (poor $&*&*#(%& Zanuka needs an overhaul).  And this is because these are the only enemies that scale to the player, with player-level armor, health, and damage, coupled with some mechanics that make them dangerous and give them windows to attack, defend, and retaliate.  Still, most assassins get one-shot by high MR players with the right tools.

Based on DE's raid designs and recent boss overhauls such as the raptor, they seem content to make the "challenge" of defeating high level content hinge upon jumping through stupid hoops, standing on buttons while being shot at, and basically solving environmental puzzles that have little to do with the actual boss or your quality of gear.  Personally, I'd say Lephantis is STILL one of the best designed encounters in the game, despite him not surviving the ever-present power creep.  While he has invulnerability phases, he telegraphs his actions, telling the players when he's attacking and when he's vulnerable.  He can be a bit of a gear check, since some guns are far more effective than others (bows suck, shotguns are great, assault rifles are alright, etc).  You start the encounter facing each head individually, learning their abilities and defeating them.  Then you face them all together in a bigger badder arena.  All-in-all there's a cogent build up and escalating difficulty built into the encounter, coupled with learnable enemy mechanics that allow a smart player to keep their head above water.  However, it suffers from funny player skill interactions and the fact that the game is designed as a horizontal-horde shooter.  While environmental hazards and trash adds test a players ability to maneuver and keep their battle field tidy and free of clutter, Lephantis himself isn't affected by much apart from your gear-checked guns and some of your CC abilities.  Yet, higher MR players can ignore most of the encounter mechanics by virtue of the sheer DPS they can pull with their sniper-shotguns.

The big problem with Warframe is that it's designed for horizontal progression, and yet there's still very much some verticality in the power-potential of the player.  As a result, new content has to be designed in a way that's accessible to very new players and yet isn't bowled over by the wrecking ball that is high-level players.  This means mechanical gating, which is what you see in the new kuva guardians.  DE's refusal to put higher MR gates on content means that almost all players reach all content, even with very low quality gear, low quality mods, and all-around not much knowledge of how to properly build a functional load out.  Any numb nut can do TWW, and the limiting factor is simply their ability to learn how to use their operator as their hand is held all the way through the quest.  The entire quest was nothing more than a big operator tutorial with a little test at the end that is incredibly forgiving.  You can DIE as an operator OVER and OVER and OVER and not use any of your revives.  Once you figure out how to make the Kuva guards vulnerable to attack (which Teshin tells you how to do, repeatedly) they become complete pushovers.  The operators themselves are a level playing field, since they all are exactly androgynously the same, with the same health and mechanics, and are not mod-able in any way.  So, while a lot of high MR players would otherwise just mow down all the kuva guardians if they could, everyone has to use their operator mechanics in the same jump-through-flaming-hoops manner in order to be successful.  This carries over into kuva farming post TWW.  The problem is that Kuva fights are really boring and repetitive, especially with the ever-growing cost of rerolling rivens.  Certain frames are once-again broken in their ability to handle the task far better than any other, and until the recent alert system change, they were stuck on 2 planets doing the same 2 or 3 missions, over and over.  All in all, the kuva design is not the answer to warframes problems, and will probably hurt the game in the long run.

DE is running into a gameplay design problem that's only getting worse with every bit of power creep they introduce.  Rivens were supposed to help level the playing field, but I think we all know those are the crappiest band-aid ever implemented, despite the very admirable intentions.  -150% dmg and -150% flight speed make for some rather interesting, though utterly useless weapons.  As far as I can tell, the only way DE can introduce interesting challenging bosses into the game is to FIRST normalize enemy scaling to be more linear and proportionate to the player.  Secondly, to normalize player damage such that God-tier weapons are few and far between, if not non-existent.  Then, DE will be able to design boss encounters that don't have to cater to a spectrum of players wherein the top players are doing millions of times the damage of the lowest players.   They will be able to dispense with immunity phases, health gates, and what amount to in-game cinematics that are progressed through by shooting (all the terrible Vay Hek fights, anyone?).  They could then look more at enemy behaviors, AI, and combat design.  We can all agree that it would be a lot more enjoyable.

In the mean time, you gotta make your own fun.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Guest

[Evanescent]

11 hours ago, WhisperByte said:

I don't think it would work in WF. I think the nature and the pace of the game and stat based weapon handling just does not allow that.

I mean, look at the old Scindo or Gram (or Galatine charge attacks before Melee 2.0)  before Berserker existed. Those were slow attacking but powerful weapons and (mostly thanks to screenshake) you could feel the power of each swing. Or how satisfying it felt to blast a mook away with Jatt Kitty or a shot from Hek. Then came Berserker and the whole crit-or-gtfo meta and it's all gone unless you want to gimp yourself.

 

Anyway, there's a nice video I watched yesterday about adding the weight to weapon attacks which explains how well it works in Monster Hunter and  Soulsbourne games and why I don't think it can work in Warframe (the Smash Bros examples in this vid)

 

Ah, Extra Credits! I like me some EC, good show.

But I must disagree.

You misunderstand in thinking that I want, say, hammers in in Warframe to swing like the Kirk-hammer. No, I'm aware it would be slow af and not really feel fun.

What would work, however, is enemy feedback and how strikes interact with enemies. Surely you agree, that when I hit an enemy with a one tonne hammer he should feel that weight? It would also give melees a utility in CC-ing enemies. Obviously weapon speeds and animation speeds will have to be tweaked, but as it is melee in warframe rarely has that visceral feel you need. It is that meaty feel I was referring to when I said lessons could be taken from Bloodborne. And I think you underestimate the speed of Bloodborne melee combat-blade of mercy and chikage combos can be visceral and fast at the same time. High level PvP duels show the speed and weapon feedback working hand in hand.

You can look at DOOM for an example of visceral melee strikes in a fast paced environment done right.

[Noabettiet]

On ‎29‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 0:36 AM, Rayven71 said:

I think one thing DE could really learn from Dark Souls is how Dark Souls tells lore. DE is already doing this to some degree, but imagine if every weapon had some little blurb that came with it about who made it, or who uses it, or just anything vaguely related to it. It wouldn't be too difficult to implement, since its only text, and it would to tons for the world-building.

It didn't work well with Destiny at all.
And we've technically have something like that. Before the god sent quest missions, we had codex descriptions and whatnot to keep us informed. Kinda like how archwing was hinted months prior to release in megs prime codex entry description.

[(PSN)ghinellil]

I playing DS3 now, and some bosses literally cover your whole character, so is like to play blind... I loved DS2, the 3 is graphical better but not as good.