Suggestion: introducing Riven tiers

[Prepotenza]

Hello,

When I first heard about Rivens I thought it would be a great addition in the game, but I was wrong.
Even with the Riven disposition I feel like some weapons shouldn't be able to equip those mods at all.
The current limit of the Riven mods is 15, this limit is great for normal players, cause it's fairly hard to get 15 Riven mods by playing only sorties (unless really lucky, or unlucky), but the 15 limit is too low for players that wish to spend their plats on these. I bought over 25 Riven mods, and I had to resell them or to convert some of them into Endo. I started out with an Hind mod

This is my idea:
Removing Riven mods limit and introduing Riven tiers.

Riven mods will be divided into "tiers".
Tier 1 mods will be the mods for the strongest one (Tonkor, Simulor etc)
Tier 2 mods will be the mods for strong weapons (Bows, Snipers, other launchers, Ignis etc.)
Tier 3 mods will be the mods for bad weapons (Braton, Dera, Gorgon etc.)
Tier 4 mods will be the mods for the worst weapons and unused weapons (Tetra, Hind, Paracyst etc.)

With this system every player will be limited to:
1 Tier 1 mod (only one).
3 Tier 2 mods.
10 Tier 3 mods.
unlimited Tier 4 mods.

In my opinion players will start using less overpowered weapons to get used of Riven mods.
This will lead to more diversity when playing. And will lead most players to try out some uncommon and less used weapons.

The number of tiers may vary, as well as the number of mods per tier.


Please share your opinion and give a feedback about this system.

[Naftal]

I don't understand why you should be limited on the stronger weapon rivens. It's not like you can use more than one weapon at one time.

[Prepotenza]

9 minutes ago, Naftal said:

I don't understand why you should be limited on the stronger weapon rivens. It's not like you can use more than one weapon at one time.

The point is that Riven Mods could have been a way to start using less op weapons.
If you can have only 1 Riven for op weapons you will start using the weaker weapons to get use of the Riven you get from sorties.

You can use only 1 weapon at a time, and of course you will be able to use Tonkor even if you got Simulor Riven, but if you want to get use of these new mods you'll have to use Hind etc.
Not to say that most weak weapons won't be able to compete with op weapons anywa, even with great rivens. But this system might lead players to use less common weapons.

[Chewarette]

Stop trying to cap everything please.

Plus, snipers on the same tiers as Bows and Ignis ? Yeah

[Zhoyzu]

3 minutes ago, Prepotenza said:

The point is that Riven Mods could have been a way to start using less op weapons.
If you can have only 1 Riven for op weapons you will start using the weaker weapons to get use of the Riven you get from sorties.

You can use only 1 weapon at a time, and of course you will be able to use Tonkor even if you got Simulor Riven, but if you want to get use of these new mods you'll have to use Hind etc.
Not to say that most weak weapons won't be able to compete with op weapons anywa, even with great rivens. But this system might lead players to use less common weapons.

but the idea of rivens was to make less used (not even bad) weapons OP.  which means that people should be limited to one mod. 

[taiiat]

while this reduces the choice between keeping a Riven for the Overpowered Equipment vs what they think is really fun or cool, but still limits it to some degree.

such limitations will force Players to choose between what's the most Overpowered, and what's the most fun to use for them.

14 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

Plus, snipers on the same tiers as Bows and Ignis ? Yeah

you might have to actually think to use the Weapons(therefore instantly garbage bin in this game), but they are statistically competitive.

[lukinu_u]

The idea of tier is already here.

On weapon you can see different riven dispositons, from "faint" for the better better weapons to "strong" fo the worst, passing by "neutral".
But I think we just shouldn't have limit for theses mods in our inventory because it encourage player to use multi-account to store their Riven mods...

[Extroah]

Naaah. We have riven disposition. Also DE is still working on the System, so we'll see.

[GhostlightX]

3 hours ago, Naftal said:

I don't understand why you should be limited on the stronger weapon rivens. It's not like you can use more than one weapon at one time.

Personally I'd make it ZERO tier 1 Rivens, as their very existence defeats the purpose that DE claims they were designed for: to allow people to take weak or rarely used weapons into end game. They are the perfect example of power creep and I fear DE will start adding content that requires this level of power, which will only be available to the lucky few.

[Airyllish]

This won't work. I get what you're trying to achieve but this will not work. Arguably all this might wind up doing is stop people farming Rivens altogether.

At the end of the day, whether you like it or whether you don't, powercreep will always exist. It has been so built into Warframe's core that unless they completely rework it from the ground up - from the way scaling on enemies works to the way damage also scales and the way a Warframe's abilities do or do not scale - that we're going to have to deal with the powercreep. The only thing that can be worked on without such a full rework is the extent to which powercreep exists. 

Whether you like it or whether you don't, I will still always rely on my top tier guns and melee weapons to take into sorties. Riven mods arguably do not change this. I will far prefer taking my Sancti Tigris into a tougher sortie regardless of my Dread's or Boltor Prime's amazeballs Riven mod (not that it is amazeballs yet, but I'll cycle it into one one day) because it is always going to be better. The damage is reliable, the proc is reliable, that gun vastly outshines many of my other guns. Riven mods will not, have not and do not change this fact. 

What I can do, however, is enjoyably farm current Riven mods to try and get a wide collection. Remember that Riven mods are already capped at fifteen. Which means, out of all the weapons in the game that have Riven mods, I can have only fifteen of them at any given point in time. That roughly fits in with the number of weapons I enjoy using, regardless of their power level. And, yes. Some of those are top tier guns, and I enjoy them not because they do the damages but because I find them fun to use. I'm not getting rid of my Boltor for example because I enjoy using it, just not on Sorties. And I'm probably never going to enjoy using it on Sorties, or on endless 40 minute plus runs, because I don't enjoy it that much nor do I think it's good enough for that content, but damn I love that gun.

You telling me, then, that I can only have a Riven mod for it or my Dread, for example?

Well I'll just not bother with getting Rivens, then. No point if I can obtain, say, five Riven mods for five different guns I enjoy, but they all happen to be top tier guns so I need to trash four of them. 

Stop trying to make an already fairly useless system useless. Riven mods are a poor man's bandaid fix to powercreep and they will not change the fact that Tigris is going to still be one of the most widely used shotguns, or that Soma is going to be used one of the most widely used rifles, or that Rakta Cernos or Dread will be the most widely used bows. They don't change that because they don't fix the issue of powercreep, which is where these weapons not only shine but are sometimes the only real tools in our arsenal capable of dealing with that sort of nonsense. My Paracyst isn't suddenly going to be able to handle Sorties just because I got a Riven mod for it and the Riven mod doesn't mean I'm going to suddenly try taking it - I want to actually contribute during the missions, thank you. Rivens just give people a chance to say "Oh hey, this mod could really supercharge a weapon I enjoy playing but struggle to take into any higher tier mission whatsoever because the damage falls off far too early and scales terribly. Maybe this Riven mod will make it usable and give me a reason to play that weapon again in some of the missions."

Folks really need to stop acting like Rivens are genuinely going to make people take bunk weapons into Sortie content all of a sudden just cause they have a Riven mod for them. Cause that ain't gonna happen and you can't force it to happen either, no matter how much you try. Rivens aren't ever going to fulfill their fully designed purpose because you could make Riven mods only for weapons I hate and guess what? I'm not going to use those weapons because I don't like them, and thus to me the Rivens become absolutely useless and change utterly nothing.

[Prepotenza]

53 minutes ago, GhostlightX said:

Personally I'd make it ZERO tier 1 Rivens, as their very existence defeats the purpose that DE claims they were designed for: to allow people to take weak or rarely used weapons into end game. They are the perfect example of power creep and I fear DE will start adding content that requires this level of power, which will only be available to the lucky few.

I kinda agree.
Imho tier 1 rivens shouldn't exist, not even tier 2.. they should be limtied to really underpowered weapons.
I don't think Riven can change the game so much, but they are really useful.
End game can be completed without weapons, but this doesn't mean that powercreeps deserved another buff.

3 hours ago, Chewarette said:

Stop trying to cap everything please.

Plus, snipers on the same tiers as Bows and Ignis ? Yeah

Rivens are already capped at 15. I am currently sitting on 11 mods with Feint disposition. This is bad, cause I would like to use some Tetra, Flux Rifle, Hind, Burston mods, but deleting the Riven mods I currently own (11 for op weapons) is simply stupid.
BUT, if the Riven system changes we will be forced to stop using it at all, or starting to use it to boost underpowered weapons.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Prepotenza

[Airyllish]

12 minutes ago, Prepotenza said:

Rivens are already capped at 15. I am currently sitting on 11 mods with Feint disposition. This is bad, cause I would like to use some Tetra, Flux Rifle, Hind, Burston mods, but deleting the Riven mods I currently own (11 for op weapons) is simply stupid.
BUT, if the Riven system changes we will be forced to stop using it at all, or starting to use it to boost underpowered weapons.

The fact that you refuse to either sell or get rid of eleven Riven mods because they're for OP weapons is on you, not on the rest of the Warframe player base.

Hearing that makes it sound like you're saying "I don't have the self-control to get rid of Riven mods for overpowered weapons myself, so I want DE to introduce a mechanic that means I don't need that responsibility at all!"

Like you just said, we're already capped at fifteen Riven mods. If you don't have the self-control to get rid of some because they're all for what you deem to be the overpowered weapons, so that you can go ahead and try to aim for a Riven mod for a weapon you enjoy, the fault lies squarely on your shoulders. Asking DE to impose a game-wide restriction because you don't want to get rid of or sell one yourself just ruins the game for the other people that do have the ability to say "I should sell this Riven to somebody who would want it for their overpowered weapon and then continue to farm for Rivens that are for weapons I enjoy" along with the people who do also purely want Rivens only for the top tier weapons because they're the only weapons they play. 

Benefits you and a few others, negatively impacts far more overall.

[Ophan]

Removing the cap all together would be nice, however I believe their idea was to facilitate the exchange of riven mods because of a limited capacity, forcing players to either manage the mods they wanted and/or trade to open room for another mod.

Feels bad not having the chance to collect one for each weapon.

[Airyllish]

8 minutes ago, Ophan said:

Removing the cap all together would be nice, however I believe their idea was to facilitate the exchange of riven mods because of a limited capacity, forcing players to either manage the mods they wanted and/or trade to open room for another mod.

Feels bad not having the chance to collect one for each weapon.

As a serial collector, I couldn't agree more.

The problem with the limitation of 15 only is that it doesn't actually do anything but hinder players. Serial farmers that want to farm for the Soma Riven to sell, for example, don't care about trash Rivens and instantly dump them. They, in fact, benefit from the limited number of Rivens a player can have at any one time because it drastically increases the chance that a player will buy from them instead of farm it for themselves and have to deal with the cap on Rivens in inventory.

Similarly it also means that I need to arbitrarily pick fifteen weapons I love enough to never let go of - which eventually will need to span all three weapon classes of Primary, Secondary and Melee unless they increase the Riven cap to go hand in hand with an increased pool of Rivens in the future.

Overall the cap just hurts collectors who would seek out otherwise unwanted Riven mods and thus it negatively impacts a huge number of weapons. Several weapons with Riven mods right now will remain as useless and unused as they ever have been and their Rivens will be worth utterly nothing because even the people who might have once collected the mod don't have the space to own it. It encourages trade of the powerful Rivens, to be certain, but again it is utterly counter-intuitive to the complete goal of Rivens seeing underused weapons become more used. Sad, really.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Airyllish

[LuckyCharm]

Why not just limit it to one or two per weapon, that way to get others for that weapon you need to sell/trade/toss one to get another? It's at least get people to trade around their different mods and try out new weapons

[GhostlightX]

22 minutes ago, Ophan said:

Removing the cap all together would be nice, however I believe their idea was to facilitate the exchange of riven mods because of a limited capacity, forcing players to either manage the mods they wanted and/or trade to open room for another mod..

The long term net result of this is that only the best Riven mods will exist; anything crappy or for crappy guns will have been dissolved long ago. Again, completely defeating the purpose they were invented for in the first place.

[Airyllish]

1 minute ago, GhostlightX said:

The long term net result of this is that only the best Riven mods will exist; anything crappy or for crappy guns will have been dissolved long ago. Again, completely defeating the purpose they were invented for in the first place.

Beg pardon, but how does the current system facilitate people keeping crappy Rivens for crappy guns exactly?

I would argue that the long term result of giving people either a larger capacity to hold Riven mods or an unlimited one is that more crappy Rivens for crappy guns exist, because people don't have to just dissolve them so that they have space for the good ones. With a current limit of fifteen however, it is far more likely crappy Rivens for crappy guns get instantly dissolved to make space for the good Rivens or for Rivens with better guns, because you don't have enough space to let yourself hold onto worse Rivens and also have Rivens for the guns you enjoy/guns already decent.

[GhostlightX]

11 minutes ago, Airyllish said:

Beg pardon, but how does the current system facilitate people keeping crappy Rivens for crappy guns exactly?

It is the current system of a limit of 15 that I was referring to. Any limit simply means the crappest ones will be deleted first.

Edited November 29, 2016 by GhostlightX

[Airyllish]

7 minutes ago, GhostlightX said:

It is the current system of a limit of 15 that I was referring to. Any limit simply means the crappest ones will be deleted first.

Ah. My apologies then; I read your post as inferring that removing the limit of 15 would somehow incite people to dissolve poor Rivens. My bad.

[GhostlightX]

I worded it poorly. No harm done.

[Ophan]

So, we have a "problem" or at the very least an inconvenience when it comes to gathering these Mods. What implementation would you suggest that doesn't further limit the capacity to have the mods for every weapon, if even that? Or is any cap at all a good cap. [Personally, I don't like caps]. If so, how would you incentives the trading of Riven Mods to encourage their circulation rather then have it as it is now, which is having to part with Mods to keep the desired ones.

I understand what DE has done, but I also understand those in the community that wish to horde (myself included) good riven mods.

The OP did make a valid suggestion, though I would rather limit myself to the 15 limit if it meant being able to choose the weapons I liked out of the complete list, instead of a tiered list. 

[Airyllish]

50 minutes ago, Ophan said:

If so, how would you incentives the trading of Riven Mods to encourage their circulation rather then have it as it is now, which is having to part with Mods to keep the desired ones.

Trick question, at least in part.

Trading throughout Warframe is currently done as a way of, to some extent, avoiding the farm. For example, let's say I really want Mod A. Mod A drops from, say, Corrupted Ancients with a rate of 1%. If I'm a lazy bean, and I don't want to farm that mod (and this is when there are no limits imposed on when I can get that mod or how many of that mod I can have) then I can just go to the trade chat and spend thirty seconds saying "WTB Mod A" 

Chances are if I wait around long enough, somebody will sell Mod A to me. Chances also are that if demand for Mod A is high enough across the player base, some people will go out of their way to farm specifically for Mod A purely for the purpose of selling it and turning profit.

Rivens will work the same way, especially as the pool of Riven mods gets larger and the chance to get a Riven for the "good" weapons gets lower by proxy. Players don't need to be encouraged to trade Rivens by limiting the number of Rivens they can have, in the same way players don't need to be encouraged to trade normal rare mods or event mods. All making Riven mods limited does is artificially create extra demand, instead of really encouraging trade. Think of the sheer amount of money people made getting Soma Rivens and then selling them to people that just didn't want to farm. Warframe's trading market is driven by that very fact. People don't always have the time or desire to farm, or they missed an event in which a particular thing dropped. So what do they do? They go to the market. Farmers work by this same logic: they farm what's in demand for a greater chance of selling.

I have yet to see anybody actually trade Riven Mod X for Riven Mod B. I see people selling good Rivens fairly regularly when I'm online, but rarely do I see people actually engage in trading Rivens for more obscure or lesser used weapons. Why? Well... because there is no demand for them. And there likely never will be, or the demand is so small that you'll almost never see it happen on a regular basis.

And no suggestion we make here is going to change the way Warframe's player base trade and purchase from each other, either. So, in part, asking what limitations or incentives we can add to encourage trading is a trick question, because Warframe's (and generally, any online games) trading player base isn't dictated by incentives beyond "What turns a profit" and "What saves me time/What gets me what I want." 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Airyllish

[AcceptYourDeath]

I would like to see something to change with the 15/15 capacity. I hit the cap as well few days ago and had to sell some riven mods. The thing is I intentionally went for low tier and mid tier weapons, however I don`t want to exclude myself to own at least some top tier mods at some point. At the same time players how don`t care for weapons outside top tier whatsoever are going to be quite happy with their 15 capacity. Maybe never match or exceeding it? 

My suggestion would be to tie capacity with disposition. Weaker weapons should use less capacity than strong weapons. 

I put up with building a Hind again, leveling it, forma and buying a riven mod for it. That was one of the ideas with riven, right? And I am the one in trouble. 

Edited November 29, 2016 by AcceptYourDeath