Jump to content

Zephyr and Low Gravity.


Golmihr
 Share

Recommended Posts

I would just like to remind people that Zephyr is the only frame that got a Nightmare Mode penalty as a passive "bonus".

 

I think it should be changed to improved aim glide duration.

 

----

 

Edit: Zephyr is from before parkour 2.0. With parkour 2.0 her low gravity became outdated as a good player can move better without low gravity than with Zephyr. It got nothing to do with what you can compensate for with her abilities or otherwise.

Edited by Golmihr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see lowered gravity as a penalty at all (Low gravity shouldn't even be a "nightmare" modifier. It's more fun than a hindrance anyways). In fact I enjoy using Zephyr on low gravity missions to further increase her floatiness.

I say keep the low gravity. It helps in mobility (Staying in the air longer, being able to jump higher, and "b-hopping" is easier). Few people use aim glide anyways (It'll only help with that Riven challenge) and it'll turn Zephyr's passive in to Loki's passive (i.e: useless, save some rare occasions)

 

Edited by Zombies164
Extras + spelling/grammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 minutes ago, Prof_Blocks_007 said:

I've played Zephyr quite a lot, and don't find her passive to be a negative at all. Hell, I miss her passive when I change to another frame.

What makes you see the passive as a negative, other than it being a Nightmare Mode modifier?

Eh... I don't see her passive as negative because it is a nightmare modifier in the first place so there's no "other" there. I see low gravity as penalty because it slows movement down whenever you are not touching the ground, especially in close quarters. A fun gimmick at times but not something that is cool to be stuck with.

 

Besides a bird is in control of how fast it wants to fall. Zephyr is not unless you count bullet jumping into the ground. (Yes, I know it's a wind frame but it comes with a bird mask.)

Edited by Golmihr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah goody, I am home and I can finally reply to this!

I HATE EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS HORRID SUGGESTION! 

Anyways, now to solve your problem because you ignored all her skills, look down, press tailwind, now not only have you landed faster than any other Warframe, but you also did not suffer from long fall lag. And because I know this will pop up as a counter argument, first if you are out of energy as a Zephyr, I am severely going to judge you. Like REEEEAAAAAALLY judge you. But anyways, look down and press your melee attack, it's slower since you will land hard, but it will give you a quick land. If you still have upward momentum, Zephyr is the fastest frame that can break out of that with Tailwind.

10 hours ago, TaylorsContraction said:

Her low gravity modifier is a double edged sword.  Every time you walk over  a bump you'll glide.  You have less control with zephyr's movements without the use of her a abilities.  This makes zephyr with no energy not fun to use for me personally.

I am judging you so hard right now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Zephyr is my main and my favorite. I've logged approx 350 hours in her. I don't like her passive in its current form.

In my opinion, as it stands, her low gravity passive is bad because it removes control from the player. I can't see it being that hard to make it so it only worked if you were say... holding the jump button? If you want to stay in the air you are literally already pressing that button, if you want to drop faster, let go and fall at a normal rate. She should be in control of the wind, not at its mercy.

As far as it goes, it's pretty easy to run outta energy with Zephyr with a slightly different build. I mean, chances are you are already constantly casting turbulence. Low level players are unlikely to have energy restores. Not everyone has Zenurik leveled up either. And that's not counting all the ways this game loves to take your energy away. Low map boundaries also reset her position and remove her turbulence, compounding the problem. Judging a player for being out of energy smacks of elitism. Energy is not a problem for me now, but that was hardly the case when I first started playing Zephyr.

Everything in warframe takes place at such a quick pace that it only takes a moment for low gravity to mess you up, Go over a bump and you're in the air. Mis-judge a bullet jump or roll off a ledge while traveling and get stuck above a door. And every single door in this game has a ledge to get stuck on. Grineer tilesets are especially bad for low hanging geometry for Zephyr to get trapped in. This can all happen to other frames, but low grav keeps Zephyr there longer.

Also, looking down and using tailwind doesn't work when stuck on a door. It's downright unnecessary when I'm hovering inches off the floor, I shouldn't even be having this problem at that point. Don't get me wrong, I still use tailwind extensively as an extension to parkour 2.0, but it can be quite clumsy at times.

So yeah, I'd like it if her low-gravity turned off when I wasn't holding jump. Surely that would be a simple compromise?

Edited by Caelward
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Caelward said:

Zephyr is my main and my favorite. I've logged approx 350 hours in her. I don't like her passive in its current form.

In my opinion, as it stands, her low gravity passive is bad because it removes control from the player. I can't see it being that hard to make it so it only worked if you were say... holding the jump button? If you want to stay in the air you are literally already pressing that button, if you want to drop faster, let go and fall at a normal rate. She should be in control of the wind, not at its mercy.

As far as it goes, it's pretty easy to run outta energy with Zephyr with a slightly different build. I mean, chances are you are already constantly casting turbulence. Low level players are unlikely to have energy restores. Not everyone has Zenurik leveled up either. And that's not counting all the ways this game loves to take your energy away. Low map boundaries also reset her position and remove her turbulence, compounding the problem. Judging a player for being out of energy smacks of elitism. Energy is not a problem for me now, but that was hardly the case when I first started playing Zephyr.

Everything in warframe takes place at such a quick pace that it only takes a moment for low gravity to mess you up, Go over a bump and you're in the air. Mis-judge a bullet jump or roll off a ledge while traveling and get stuck above a door. And every single door in this game has a ledge to get stuck on. Grineer tilesets are especially bad for low hanging geometry for Zephyr to get trapped in. This can all happen to other frames, but low grav keeps Zephyr there longer.

Also, looking down and using tailwind doesn't work when stuck on a door. It's downright unnecessary when I'm hovering inches off the floor, I shouldn't even be having this problem at that point. Don't get me wrong, I still use tailwind extensively as an extension to parkour 2.0, but it can be quite clumsy at times.

So yeah, I'd like it if her low-gravity turned off when I wasn't holding jump. Surely that would be a simple compromise?

The negative effects of her passive are so easy to work around it's laughable and not even worth considering a problem. It does far more good than anything negative that comes from it, in fact, I sometimes choose Zephyr just for the passive alone. 

And no it is not, Most of the time I can't even purposefully run out of energy on Zephyr, or if I do try it takes a few minutes, and I have to be extremely wasteful with my energy to do so, such as being permanently in the air and recasting turbulence and tornadoes every time they run out. And half the time I don't even run Zenurik, and instead use Naramon focus. Energy is just not a problem for her, and I don't care if I sound elitist, I HATE when people don't bother to learn and utilize everything in their arsenal. If someone doesn't know proper energy maintenance and can't afford to use items, focuses, and mods, then they should stop complaining about it until they do. Zephyr's passive ins't holding them back, they are holding themselves back.

And no it doesn't, this is just a learn to play issue. Learn to aim, when to use tailwind, and learn how to use her low gravity to your advantage. If you aren't the first one to the exit every time, you are doing it horribly wrong. And of course it doesn't work when you are on the ledge of a door, about face, tail wind angling down, about face, bullet jump and tailwind.

Also I will answer the last question with a simple NO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You certainly don't have to step on opposing opinions so damn hard Esorono. Zephyr may be a master of the wind, but looking down on everyone who says something you don't like isn't what that's about.

Zephyr is certainly a character with alot of nuance and is very fun to learn and master. I haven't stopped playing her because 'oh no I get stuck on the occasional door'.

But Your experience is not mine. My experience is not Gohlmirs.

Time played is different, Habits developed or waiting to be developed are different. Builds with energy, sprint speed, aim glide and such are different. You do what you enjoy!

All I've stated is that I'd like a very simple quality of life changed that involves holding a key that you are already holding or not holding according to the situation.

Have a good day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Esorono said:

The negative effects of her passive are so easy to work around it's laughable and not even worth considering a problem. It does far more good than anything negative that comes from it, in fact, I sometimes choose Zephyr just for the passive alone. 

And no it is not, Most of the time I can't even purposefully run out of energy on Zephyr, or if I do try it takes a few minutes, and I have to be extremely wasteful with my energy to do so, such as being permanently in the air and recasting turbulence and tornadoes every time they run out. And half the time I don't even run Zenurik, and instead use Naramon focus. Energy is just not a problem for her, and I don't care if I sound elitist, I HATE when people don't bother to learn and utilize everything in their arsenal. If someone doesn't know proper energy maintenance and can't afford to use items, focuses, and mods, then they should stop complaining about it until they do. Zephyr's passive ins't holding them back, they are holding themselves back.

And no it doesn't, this is just a learn to play issue. Learn to aim, when to use tailwind, and learn how to use her low gravity to your advantage. If you aren't the first one to the exit every time, you are doing it horribly wrong. And of course it doesn't work when you are on the ledge of a door, about face, tail wind angling down, about face, bullet jump and tailwind.

Also I will answer the last question with a simple NO.

Uh, Esorono? Not that I don't agree with you, but man, you're smacking somebody's opinion down really hard here... And the only thing you're using to do the smacking is, when you stop and look at things objectively, your own opinion.

I mean, to @Caelward I have to say that, no, I don't think we need the passive to be off by default and have a 'hold jump to toggle' function on it, that's a huge nerf to her passive. If I had to say, I actually want it improved more, as she's able to steer in the air normally, but for some reason pressing Aim to Aim Glide removes that function, and during that she seems to reach the end of Aim Glide just as fast as any other frame. If Aim Glide was extended and able to be steered, it would be a step towards (not a full half-way meeting, but a step) compromising with all those players that believe Zephyr should have had flight as a passive by giving her an active glide function between her Tailwinds and to help those that aren't so good at aiming the frame to feel more in control.

More on topic though, I have to ask you a question in return; what if you're one of the hundreds, maybe thousands, of players to whom tapping the button to jump is more intuitive than holding? Your entire argument for this being a quality of life improvement seems based around a personal habit of holding down a key for the duration of a movement, when the next person sees that the jump doesn't change based on how long you hold it and so just efficiently taps the button when they need it. This goes doubly true for those that have mastered the quick key-presses for the 'bullet jump, second jump, slide' combo that's the current fastest way to navigate without spending energy, you would never hold anything until the slide phase, and so would lose Zephyr's passive entirely while doing that entire movement.

You can't base an improvement in quality of life terms without considering that even the way you press keys on a keyboard can be different to the next person, and that your 'improvement' would effectively have the exact opposite effect on play for them because of it.

Anyway, pardon me, both of you, for sticking my nose in. I'll wander off again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't get these ''I don't find it negative'' comments. Who cares? OP's not asking whether or not you subjectively find it negative, they're stating correctly that the game considers it a negative.

Which begs the question, why does a frame have a 'negative' modifier as a passive.

Personally I don't think it needs changing, I honestly find it more fun than annoying and wouldn't like to see it removed.

As far as logic goes I would however like to see Low Gravity removed as a negative modifier in missions, and instead added to certain tiles where it makes sense. Perhaps after sabotaging the core of a Corpus/Grineer ship. Or having it cut off during a survival mission when you drop below 50% air or something. 

Could be fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

I don't get these ''I don't find it negative'' comments. Who cares? OP's not asking whether or not you subjectively find it negative, they're stating correctly that the game considers it a negative.

Point: The game considers it a negative to other frames. By choosing it at the first ever passive on any frame, the game is declaring it a positive for this particular frame.

Similarly, Frost; getting physically hit is only bad for other frames, for Frost it can freeze an enemy solid instead of taking damage. Ember; being on fire is a bad thing, except for Ember because it gives her additional buffs. Passives stating that a usually negative thing is a positive on the specific frame isn't unusual.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

I mean, to @Caelward I have to say that, no, I don't think we need the passive to be off by default and have a 'hold jump to toggle' function on it, that's a huge nerf to her passive. If I had to say, I actually want it improved more, as she's able to steer in the air normally, but for some reason pressing Aim to Aim Glide removes that function, and during that she seems to reach the end of Aim Glide just as fast as any other frame. If Aim Glide was extended and able to be steered, it would be a step towards (not a full half-way meeting, but a step) compromising with all those players that believe Zephyr should have had flight as a passive by giving her an active glide function between her Tailwinds and to help those that aren't so good at aiming the frame to feel more in control.

More on topic though, I have to ask you a question in return; what if you're one of the hundreds, maybe thousands, of players to whom tapping the button to jump is more intuitive than holding? Your entire argument for this being a quality of life improvement seems based around a personal habit of holding down a key for the duration of a movement, when the next person sees that the jump doesn't change based on how long you hold it and so just efficiently taps the button when they need it. This goes doubly true for those that have mastered the quick key-presses for the 'bullet jump, second jump, slide' combo that's the current fastest way to navigate without spending energy, you would never hold anything until the slide phase, and so would lose Zephyr's passive entirely while doing that entire movement.

Hmmm.

I guess in the end of the day I feel like I want a change to her passive that feels,.. tighter.

Right now low-grav feels sloppy to me. Of course, that's just how I feel. But I've been driving this car long enough that I've gone and developed ideas bout how I'd like it to steer.

On the other hand I'm reluctant to say 'well just get rid of it entirely' because I see a lot of sentiment that low-gravity should not be removed or wholly changed. But once I got it stuck in my head that it felt sloppy, then that led to the idea that 'well, they should be able to do something with it' without a huge change. She hasn't changed much at all since they updated parkour, and frankly, the conversation you and RenovaKunumaru have completely won over my opinions on her base abilities, but I can't shake the feeling that her passive could be better, and this just my take of 'hey, maybe this would be a thing'.

I can see your point that there maybe too much going on when she's on the move to make this idea of mine at all practical. And the idea that what's good for me isn't necessarily good over everyone is certainly true. But that split-second of airtime I didn't want right then is all it takes to get stuck on something because I'm always trying to move accross the map as fast as I can push her. While most of the time I enjoy the greater distance her low grav affords her, sometimes I'd like the Master of the Wind to have a bit shorter airtime. This led to the idea that hey, maybe it would help if I had to hold jump to stay in the air longer?

I'm willing to concede to you however, You've shown me you're much better at analysing Zephyr than I am. Just hope that DE is paying attention.

Edited by Caelward
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Caelward said:

Just hope that DE is paying attention.

Scott is paying attention. He actually almost quoted a thread I found in late July in regards to Limbos rework dating back to July, so when he says he's working on the rework of a character, he does his homework.

When it comes to Zephyrs passive, I get it. I used to get stuck on doors all the time too. Sometimes I still do. However her passive proves itself to be one of her greatest strengths for those willing to put in the effort to master the movement. As a matter of fact, I usually laugh when I play Nightmare/Sortie low gravity because its nothing to me. Makes me actually want to play Zephyr on those missions. 

Problem with this thread is that it was not a constructive thread to begin with. It began as a complaint thread and was edited later to be more constructive which is why I refused to comment initially. Most of the time, I try to ignore these kinds of threads because I don't like to increase their post count of keep them relevant on the 1st page. 

Anyway, having to adapt your playstyle isn't a gripe, its a challenge. Should we change Nezha's passive because I get stuck on the wall while sliding most of the time? No, I don't think so. I'll just practice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Caelward said:

You certainly don't have to step on opposing opinions so damn hard Esorono. Zephyr may be a master of the wind, but looking down on everyone who says something you don't like isn't what that's about.

Zephyr is certainly a character with alot of nuance and is very fun to learn and master. I haven't stopped playing her because 'oh no I get stuck on the occasional door'.

But Your experience is not mine. My experience is not Gohlmirs.

Time played is different, Habits developed or waiting to be developed are different. Builds with energy, sprint speed, aim glide and such are different. You do what you enjoy!

All I've stated is that I'd like a very simple quality of life changed that involves holding a key that you are already holding or not holding according to the situation.

Have a good day.

I don't really care about if I came off harsh, if someone refuses to learn how to play and utilize their entire toolkit, then I just don't care about their opinion and I am going to call them out on it. Especially when it is about a core part of Zephyr's DPS, survivability, and mobility.

Also, no Zephyr isn't complicated, she has the easiest kit in the game to maneuver with, she is one of the last frames who would get stuck on a door, and one of the fastest to recover from it.

And I know it isn't the same, but who is having the least amount of problems using Zephyr? Clearly something is wrong, and it ain't Zephyr's passive.

I do what is most effective, the best I can make and do. I spend most of my hours on Warframe testing and building more effective and efficient ways to play. I have spent hundreds of hours alone just to work on Zephyr's build, and you say you want to see it changed just because you were too lazy to look down and press 1? Hell no! Learn to play and then come back.

10 hours ago, Thaylien said:

If I had to say, I actually want it improved more, as she's able to steer in the air normally, but for some reason pressing Aim to Aim Glide removes that function, and during that she seems to reach the end of Aim Glide just as fast as any other frame. If Aim Glide was extended and able to be steered, it would be a step towards (not a full half-way meeting, but a step) compromising with all those players that believe Zephyr should have had flight as a passive by giving her an active glide function between her Tailwinds and to help those that aren't so good at aiming the frame to feel more in control.

From testing, I found out the uncontrollable aim glide is a bug. The same one that keeps your previous momentum after changing direction and using tailwind. If she doesn't have any momentum and is wielding a melee weapon, she can control her aimglide very well. Which I find kind of odd in a way, as it doesn't really work with Primaries and Secondaries. Though changing direction and using slide while in Aimglide does change her momentum and control of aimglide quite well.

Edited by Esorono
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Esorono said:

Anyways, now to solve your problem because you ignored all her skills

I use her skills just fine. Plus you don't even need them to get down fast as both parkour and quick-melee can do it too.

The OP got nothing to do with any of that.

---

Zephyr is from before parkour 2.0. With parkour 2.0 her low gravity became outdated as a good player can move better without low gravity than with Zephyr.

Edited by Golmihr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Golmihr said:

I use her skills just fine. Plus you don't even need them to get down fast as both parkour and quick-melee can do it too.

The OP got nothing to do with any of that.

---

Zephyr is from before parkour 2.0. With parkour 2.0 her low gravity became outdated as a good player can move better without low gravity than with Zephyr.

Clearly not if you are having a hard time utilizing her low gravity to your advantage. And while yes, you can use parkour and quick melee, a tailwind is usually much faster and more effective. And while yes she was made before parkour 2.0, the parkour system only made her more effective. Except for the inflexible who refuse to learn how to play her and instead complains on the forums to make it easier for themselves while nerfing people who actually play her.

Edited by Esorono
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

16 minutes ago, Esorono said:

Clearly not if you are having a hard time utilizing her low gravity to your advantage. And while yes, you can use parkour and quick melee, a tailwind is usually much faster and more effective. And while yes she was made before parkour 2.0, the parkour system only made her more effective.

Lol. "Utilize her low gravity"?

If by utilizing you mean hanging up in the air and shooting then the suggestion makes up for that thing with improve glide time, so that can't be what you mean. Beyond that there's no benefit from low gravity these days other than bumping into the ceiling, if that's your thing (I wont judge).

At best Low Gravity is to Warframe movement what support wheels are for bicycles. When you bulletjump through a map your speed is for a big part decided by how fast you can get contact with the ground again, so when you are on Zephyr and you end up with some fast bulletjumping team mates your best bet to keep up without energy is to run fast on the ground.

 

Do I have any problems maneuvering with Zephyr? [Insert your imaginative answer, it doesn't change anything.]. But I still have to compensate with run speed because there are just some basic fast maneuvering on other frames that is slower on her. (And I don't want to waste energy.) It's just a terrible game design for a lot of situations once the gimmick has worn off.

 

At least the turbulence mod provides run speed.

 

Edited by Golmihr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Golmihr said:

 

Lol. "Utilize her low gravity"?

If by utilizing you mean hanging up in the air and shooting then the suggestion makes up for that thing with improve glide time. Beyond that there's no benefit from low gravity these days other than bumping into the ceiling, if that's your thing (I wont judge).

Low Gravity is to Warframe movement what support wheels are for bicycles. When you bulletjump through a map your speed is for a big part decided by how fast you can get contact with the ground again, so when you are on Zephyr and you end up with some fast bulletjumping team mates your best bet to keep up without energy is to run fast on the ground.

 

Do I have any problems maneuvering with Zephyr? Of course I do! I don't really play Zephyr at all. But I still have to compensate with run speed because there are just some basic fast maneuvering on other frames that is slower on her. (And I don't want to waste energy.) It's just a terrible game design for a lot of situations once the gimmick has worn off.

When you bulletjump through a map your speed/maneuverability is for a big part decided by how fast you can get contact with the ground again, so when you are on Zephyr and you end up with some fast bulletjumping team mates your best bet to keep up without energy is to run fast on the ground.

 

At least the turbulence mod provides run speed.

 

Oh wow, you really are terrible with Zephyr. Most of her speed comes from her tailwind, which means you WANT TO KEEP HER IN THE AIR! She slows down considerably once she touches the ground. This passive also helps her considerably to keep her alive and well positioned, not only this, but keep her safe from explosives. It also combines well with Telos Boltace. And Boohoo! You lose 8 energy, you act like that is the rarest resource in the game. LEARN TO PLAY! You want to be on the ground and only utilize Jetstream? Fine, play this instead http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Volt You will like it more than a Zephyr. It's everything you want, a frame that can run fast and falls like a stone, that doesn't have to worry about things such as tailwind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Esorono said:

Oh wow, you really are terrible with Zephyr. Most of her speed comes from her tailwind, which means you WANT TO KEEP HER IN THE AIR! She slows down considerably once she touches the ground. This passive also helps her considerably to keep her alive and well positioned, not only this, but keep her safe from explosives. It also combines well with Telos Boltace. And Boohoo! You lose 8 energy, you act like that is the rarest resource in the game. LEARN TO PLAY! You want to be on the ground and only utilize Jetstream? Fine, play this instead http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Volt You will like it more than a Zephyr. It's everything you want, a frame that can run fast and falls like a stone, that doesn't have to worry about things such as tailwind.

Oh wow, you really are terrible at reading.

I dislike having to compensate by spending energy for basic stuff. "B-But just cast tailwind". FFS...

"B-But she slows down when you don't use tailwind" Woah, really! (/sarcasm)

"I need it to keep me safe from explosions" And you call me terrible?!

 

Learn to play yourself before trying to teach others. There more than just your favorite approach to the game.

Edited by Golmihr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Golmihr said:

Oh wow, you really are terrible at reading.

I dislike having to compensate by spending energy for basic stuff. "B-But just cast tailwind". FFS...

"B-But she slows down when you don't use tailwind" Woah, really! (/sarcasm)

"I need it to keep me safe from explosions" And you call me terrible?!

 

Learn to play yourself before trying to teach others. There more than just your favorite approach to the game.

And you are terrible at the game.

THAT YOUR MAIN ARGUMENT! "I don't want to expend energy Q_Q" I mean grow up! Just suck it up and use damn skills you gain no sympathy from me for not using your skills!

WHICH IS WHY YOU WANT TO BE IN THE AIR! 

And yes, I do call you terrible, because you are. And don't even realize how to properly use explosives. The Kulstar and Zarr spread patterns are fare more effective and safer from the air. You would know this if you actually used a Zephyr. Which you don't.

And I do know how to play, all that you have probven to me is that you do not. And don't even bother learning how to play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If anybody have any other ideas on how she can maintain air superiority while not messing up her basic movements then feel free to add them but as I see it, there doesn't seem any other use for her Low Gravity other than hanging up near the ceiling and sniping. So I figure an improved glide time would cover her benefit from it.

Despite what some here seem to think, this is not meant as an attack on the frame but a feedback on how to improve her.

 

If you are somebody who doesn't want her to change then that's fine but that is not what this thread is about.

Edited by Golmihr
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Golmihr said:

If anybody have any other ideas on how she can maintain air superiority while not messing up her basic movements then feel free to add them but as I see it, there doesn't seem any other use for her Low Gravity other than hanging up near the ceiling and sniping. So I figure an improved glide time would cover her benefit from it.

Despite what some here seem to think, this is not meant as an attack on the frame but a feedback on how to improve her.

 

If you are somebody who doesn't want her to change then that's fine but that is not what this thread is about.

It is an attack on the frame, this change would completely screw her over. So I am going to say this is the worst change ever, and I am not going to accept this type of horrid suggestion just because someone can't learn how to play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...