Why I don't believe Riven Mods Work

[Krion112]

The title is a tad misleading in my intentions. The reason being is that it's such a small space to work in. The real title is 'Why I don't believe Riven Mods will properly carry out the proposed idea of leading players to utilize less used weapons, and why weapons that see little use is hardly a problem'.

I hope that clears up some preliminary disgruntlement.

 

Anyway, why do I feel like Riven mods don't properly carry out the intentions DE has laid out before us? Well, it's quite simple: Riven mods are all statistical upgrades, they are not behavioral upgrades. Allow me to explain, and get ready, because this may be a long road; I'll leave a TL;DR at the bottom which can hopefully summarize my points, with the main post being used for details.

 

So, first, why would I believe weapons are underused? For that, we look to the game-design of Warframe. Something I've been learning is that action games feature a set of balance matrices that control what elements of a game are used for what purpose and counter what other elements of the game. A Stealth Tank in an RTS game is balanced the same way as a Sniper Rifle in an FPS game.

Action-Genre Balance Matrices

Those Balance Matrices, or at least the ones I know of, are Roles, Traits, and Execution. I'm going to explain each of these Matrices, as the explanations of their behaviors will play into my explanation of the 'issue':

Roles are Offense, Defense, Support, Control, and Mastery; those should be obvious, but as a quick rundown, Offense rewards attacking, Defense rewards protecting, Support rewards the use of various parts together, Control rewards the use of your enemy's elements, and Mastery is all other roles combined. Each Role is also the main counter of another role, but that explanation doesn't play much into my reasoning here, so I'm not going to include it.

Then, Traits are Aggressive, Passive, Cooperative, Manipulative, and Adaptive. Aggressive suggests you have to manage something while its active, Passive means you sit back and let it run its course, Cooperative means it works well with others, Manipulative means it's gained from the enemy, and Adaptive suggests that it can change between purposes. Traits act as variants of the Roles, as you can play an Aggressive Defense by actively eliminating incoming attackers, or a Cooperative Control by drawing the aggro of enemies off of your allies.

Finally, Execution is the method of the Role and Traits. The Execution methods are Power, Flexibility, and Precision. This matrix is the basis behind what differentiates a Super-Tank from a Stealth Tank. Power offers a lot of raw damage in a wide area of effect, but lacks the speed of flexibility and the range of precision. Flexibility represents freedom, and is often associated with fast firing weapons or 'basic stats'. Precision is the ability to eliminate a single, designated target, but lacks freedom like Flexibility, and doesn't affect as many targets as Power. Another way to think about this is that Power is a Shotgun, Flexibility is a Pistol, and Precision is a Sniper. Unlike Roles and Traits, Execution is more like a degree, so in between Flexibility and Power you have the SMG, and between Power and Precision you have the Rocket Launcher. 

But, How does that tie in?

So, by now you're probably thinking 'Why explain all this?'. Well, with this understanding of game-design in mind, I believe the reason why some weapons don't see use is because of the fact that the majority of players, or at least a very distinguishable set of players, seek to streamline their abilities. They want to make the hardest hitting thing, that can deal with their opposition as fast as possible, so that they can move on through the content as fast as possible. It's problem solving core to our species, after all, as it is natural to seek the easiest, most comfortable, and safest way to accomplish something. So, how does that tie into the above?

Well, based upon my explanations and understanding, Offense is the easiest role for a player to enter into. It's a simple prospect; Attack the enemy. It doesn't rely on placement or a whole lot of coordination. As well, Mastery is also a very commonly accepted role, as it enables options; being given the option of every role at a whim, while it does require its own management, is another method of maximizing the rate at which you can overcome a challenge.

In comparison, Defense, Support, and Control all require nuance and flair. Setting up an Ambush as Defense requires foresight and prediction of what the enemy will do and where the enemy will come from, and Defense in general relies upon waiting for the enemy. Working with teammates or within the bounds of your arsenal as Support requires a lot of coordination and management. Mind Controlling and disrupting enemies requires placement and timing with Control roles. Some mission types in Warframe do appeal to these, such as Capture, Defense, and Spy, but you'll find most mission types appeal to Offense play-styles. The game overall allows every strategy to be 'viable', but I'll mention that later.

Then, in Traits, we see many players converge on Passive if they can. Ember is a Passive Offense Warframe, and I've seen many a complaint about her World on Fire. If that ability scaled better than it does now, she'd probably be the only Warframe a lot of players would use. In fact, running the Kuva Fortress missions, every single Squad I played with had at least one Ember who did nothing but maintain a World on Fire. Letting the game do your work for you is another facet of this issue.

Finally, in Execution, we see Flexibility and Power get used the most. Flexibility for its freedom, Power for its ability to quickly eliminate or nullify large crowds of enemies. Precision requires more coordination and slows down the pace of the speedrunner type.

Now, do all players play like this? Absolutely not. But, a great deal of them do. In my experience of Warframe, I never come across Corpus or Infested weapons in ordinary use. I encounter them immediately after they come out, as no doubt players are using them to simply gain mastery, and then I never see them in use again. In fact, I don't think I've encountered another player who uses the Glaxion, Panthera, Mutalist Quanta, or Paracyst. 

So, what weapons sit in the bounds of Offense/Mastery, Passive, and Power/Flexibility? The Obvious ones: Soma (Prime), Boltor (Prime), Paris (Prime), Ignis, Gorgon, Tonkor, Simulor, Zarr, etc. If it's a meta weapon in some form or at some time, it's likely Offense or Mastery, a Passive weapon, and/or a Power or Flexibility weapon. If I recall correctly, the weapon that was least used was the Flux, and it's a Precise Aggressive Defense Weapon; No surprise it doesn't see much use.

"Play the way you want"/ Orthogonal design versus Non-Orthogonal Design

And here's where the problem lies with that: Warframe's design dictates that every strategy is viable, in a particular sense anyway. But, with every strategy being viable, players were inevitably going to design strategies that get through content as fast as possible, and not the strategies that require more management or coordination for just as much reward.

So, why don't Riven mods solve this? Just being a straight up statistical upgrade, they either don't do anything or remove the nuance from the Defense, Support, and Control roles. Likewise, being statistics, they can sometimes just outright not apply. A Sniper Rifle already has high one-shot potential; giving it %300 more damage, when it's already killing in a single shot, is worthless; likewise, giving it faster fire-rate and more reload speed makes it more of a Flexible role, which defeats the whole purpose of a Precision weapon. Giving a remote detonator launcher more magazine capacity doesn't make sense because I'm going to manage a small amount of ordinance whether or not the magazine is 5 or 10; giving it more damage just encourages me to use it like a Flak Cannon, instead of waiting for foes I'd be firing the charges directly at them and detonating them for easy kills.

Riven mods don't solve this issue; they only encourage nuance weapons to ignore their nuance, and the thing is that the nuance of those weapons is what makes them fun. What Riven mods need to work is to pay attention to the 'Orthogonal Unit Differentiation'; the idea that each individual unit within an aspect of a game has a different behavior. Right now, just being statistical changes, they are of a non-Orthogonal design, assuming that all weapons across the board benefit from the same statistics, but that's false. Just because of the designed behaviors of certain weapons, they necessitate different statistics, and more importantly, upgrades that improve their behaviors.

My suggestion: make Riven mods provide bonuses that expressly reward the behaviors of the weapons they are attached to. Each Riven mod already selects a specific weapon it can be attached to, it'd makes sense if they would only pick potential benefits for that weapon. For example, a Riven mod could provide a Perk that makes it so the Penta's grenades detonate with more damage and radius only when they're at rest. Or a Riven Mod perk that make's the Penta's grenades deploy chaff that acts as a countermeasure to robotic units and blocks some projectile ordinance. Vectis could have a Riven mod perk that increases the reload speed and weapon switch speed for all your weapons for a short while after killing an enemy.

Want to make those weapons worth the mechanics they have? You have to actually reward the play-styles they're designed for. Otherwise, you may as well not have weapon diversity, or play-style diversity for that matter, at all, as all Riven mods are going to do is encourage more of this meta, streamlined play, and even then, it might not work because many of the weapons with high Riven disposition do not benefit from non-Orthogonal Statistical buffs.

And, I understand the prospect as to why the Mod system exists compared to a standard upgrade system; with limited Weapon and Warframe slots, and favoritism for the themes or styles of those Weapons and Warframes, the Mods are designed to skew them into different traits and roles to provide a player with limited arsenal more options, but I think Rivens should be the exception and should actually be focused on directly improving underused weapons by actually buffing their specific behaviors and not improving their often already reasonable stats.

Ultimately, it depends upon what the developers believe Warframe should be; is it Orthogonal, a game of skill and behavioral recognition, or is it Non-Orthogonal, a game of numbers and statistics management? However, if it was to be elements of both, they must be made to mesh together, not contradict one another, as is the issue of Riven mods right now, trying to enforce Non-Orthogonal designs upon Orthogonal ones.

I'd much rather learn a weapon and its behaviors, and know how to utilize those behaviors to my benefit, than just be able to slap on a +900% damage and completely ignore its nuance. Unfortunately, as usual, I'm probably in the minority.

Are Underused Weapons even a problem?

However, as my final point, I don't believe that underused weapons are truly a problem anyway. Just because the majority of the playerbase seem drawn to the weapons of the positions on the balance matrices I noted above, that doesn't mean the weapons they're not using are poorly designed or actually under-powered; the management required by those weapons just isn't what they want to play. Some players actually deliberately seek out harder to manage systems, as it appeals to them more. So, truly, there's not much of a problem to begin with, unless there's an unspoken, ulterior motive as to why DE wants underused weapons to be in popular use.

 

TL;DR

• Riven Mods only encourage weapons with behavioral nuance to forego their nuance, with nuance being the reason those weapons are fun in the first place
• They may not work anyway due to the fact certain weapons do not benefit from certain statistics (damage for snipers, magazine size for Penta, etc)
• Riven Mods need to actually improve the behavioral function of a Weapon, helping that weapon to reward its play-style instead of conforming to the meta
• Or, at the very least, behavioral improving perks should be included as a method of improving nuance weapons; Riven mods already identify to a specific weapon
• Underused weapons aren't truly a problem anyway, though, as naturally the way Warframe is designed, players would seek out the faster and more streamlined strategies regardless, but this doesn't mean nuance weapons are under-powered

Hopefully that was clear and understandable; I've had trouble in the past with conveyance, so if something doesn't sound right, let me know and I'll elaborate. Feel free to agree or disagree, this is merely my analysis and feedback. If there's data to the contrary, bring it to my attention immediately.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Krion112

[Arkvold]

Let me see if I can accurately TL;DR this further, and put it into more plain language.

Riven mods don't succeed because they're completely randomized.  Even when the bonuses they provide are unambiguously good, they don't take into account what the weapon they're for is supposed to do, and instead add flat stats which may or may not help its intended function.  Sometimes, these stats can be so excessive that they dilute the function of the weapon.  If you have a rocket launcher that shoots as fast as an assault rifle, has almost no AoE, and vastly improved magazine and max ammo counts, then you're probably going to use it like an assault rifle rather than a rocket launcher.

A better solution would be Riven mods taking into account the weapons they are generated for, and selecting stats that are specifically useful to that weapon and its intended function.  Perhaps Rivens could be implemented with bonuses that are weapon or weapon-class specific, and reward the behaviors that the weapon is meant to be used for (such as an Ogris Riven having additional blast radius, or bonus damage for every target after the first that's caught in its blast, rewarding its use on crowds).

Does this sound right to you?

[TaylorsContraction]

While you make some interesting points I don't agree with all of them. A tonkor will never be a rapid fire rifle, and the soma will never be the tonkor. I have been testing the various riven mods I've acquired with different stats and I have been surprised by some of the results.

I got an opticor mod with multishot, yeah a universal stat that benefits just about any weapon other than the cernos prime. The mod also has wooping crit damage and fire rate. The fire rate is an obvious nicey on the opticor but the crit damage is not something I'd have thought as "good" initially. But having used it excessively I found that slapping on a point strike for 37.5% crit chance makes this weapon viable all of a sudden.

Another weapon I've been working on is the burston. I have a mod with +multishot, nice, and +139% status chance. I thought this would be great for the burston since it's mostly a status weapon and in a way it was. But despite being able to apply a ton of status and strip armor, its damage is still rather sub-par making the status approach the wrong way to go. What would be better? Probably flat damage and fire rate as it already has plenty of status at the end of the day.

Then we have the flux rifle. I have tried two separate stats from the same mod only to be surprised once again. I rolled a fire-rate mod with punchthrough and multi-shot. It had a lot of fire-rate and that seemed to boost its dps significantly.  I then rerolled it to a 170% damage bonus and two 80% elemental status for a total of 330% damage and it performs worse than it did with the fire rate. This was a surprising result but sadly the fire-rate roll is gone and I'll have to try and re-roll it.

I don't even know what good stats are for a braton. I have one with damage, fire rate and reload speed which I'm testing out at the moment.

The point I am trying to make is that through these mods the nature of the weapons did not change. And as DE had hoped some players are testing out different combinations to see what works. Sometimes the results are surprising.

At the end of the day rivens do raise sub-par weapons to a level where they can perform and you don't feel bad for taking this fun weapon with you to the field. Still they require a lot of time, and patience. They inevitably require one to camp trade-chat occasionaly because getting your hands on the weapon of your choice is not very likely.

What I do agree with OP is that the majority of players just want the easiest thing, which in this case are the meta weapons. They are so strong that as has been pointed out, it's easy to get good rolls for them. Niche weapons require EXTREMELY specific stats, for examplle, I'd like a vectis mod with crit / multi-shot / punch-through and either negative mag size or negative zoom. You can kind of forget about ever seeing something so precise though, and the vectis isn't a bad weapon to begin with. On the other hand what's a good riven mod for the buzzlok? It needs -recoil, fire rate, projectile speed, but on top of that it needs damage damage and more damage. This weapon will never have a great riven mod because it needs so many stats and fixes that unless a balance pass touches it, it will forever be sub-par.

[Troll_Logic]

I can tell you why riven mods don't work.

1)  They almost always suck.

2)  You have to farm kuva to change the stats.

3)  The cost of changing the stats scales but the stats don't.  So the eighth time someone rerolls the mod, it's still 100% random.

4)  Once someone gets a decent riven mod, they have to equip it.  If that player is any good, that weapon he's going to use already has a balanced build so equipping a riven mod for maybe better stats will almost certainly completely through off the forma balance.

 

Everyone is seduced by the incredibly rare triple > 100% stat riven mods, but for everyone one of those there are a million crappy mods.

For me, they aren't worth the trouble.  

[Zavek]

11 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

I can tell you why riven mods don't work.

1)  They almost always suck.

2)  You have to farm kuva to change the stats.

3)  The cost of changing the stats scales but the stats don't.  So the eighth time someone rerolls the mod, it's still 100% random.

4)  Once someone gets a decent riven mod, they have to equip it.  If that player is any good, that weapon he's going to use already has a balanced build so equipping a riven mod for maybe better stats will almost certainly completely through off the forma balance.

 

Everyone is seduced by the incredibly rare triple > 100% stat riven mods, but for everyone one of those there are a million crappy mods.

For me, they aren't worth the trouble.  

agreed the first riven i got was for the Dethrifle the second was for the Vuklok and i suppose my thrid will be for the laser rifle all sentinel weapons that dont matter anyways.

[Rhekemi]

16 hours ago, Krion112 said:

My suggestion: make Riven mods provide bonuses that expressly reward the behaviors of the weapons they are attached to. Each Riven mod already selects a specific weapon it can be attached to, it makes sense if they .

The section above seemed like an unfinished thought.

16 hours ago, Krion112 said:

For example, a Riven mod could provide a Perk that makes it so the Penta's grenades detonate with more damage and radius only when they're at rest. Or a Riven Mod perk that make's the Penta's grenades deploy chaff that acts as a countermeasure to robotic units and blocks some projectile ordinance. Vectis could have a Riven mod perk that increases the reload speed and weapon switch speed for all your weapons for a short while after killing an enemy.

That would give the weapons outright buffs, upgrades or sidegrades DE may not want to give them.

That's part of the problem with some of DE's game design choices, I think.

Often there's an opportunity to actually give a warframe, weapon, or companion a specific utility (or to build on one it already has by improving or buffing it), but DE will choose a statistical, incremental bandage which might be a step in the right direction, but doesn't address the issue.

I think DE has a morbid fear of metas, and crushes them as soon as its able to stop us from burning through content. But as you've expressed in the post, we'll do it anyway. It's what most of us are wired to do. I don't like THE meta either, but I'm sure I use several metas weapons, strategies and 'frames.

I think a better mechanical upgrade system (as opposed to Rivens) that's gone under the radar with all the current changes is the passive system. I think that's where your proposed Riven perks are headed.

Between Rivens and weapon passives, the latter is more exciting to me. When we got to design Syndicate Melee weapon passives in the DC, I went a little overboard, as I do for augments for warframes. I believe 'frame augments and syndicate passives are a way to achieve what DE wants to with Rivens. (Then we have the Gazal machete and Djinn synergy as another good example of a way to make old things new.)

16 hours ago, Krion112 said:

Ultimately, it depends upon what the developers believe Warframe should be; is it Orthogonal, a game of skill and behavioral recognition, or is it Non-Orthogonal, a game of numbers and statistics management? However, if it was to be elements of both, they must be made to mesh together, not contradict one another, as is the issue of Riven mods right now, trying to enforce Non-Orthogonal designs upon Orthogonal ones.

Another contradiction is the issue of making us pick and choose which Rivens we want to keep when many of us keep everything. If I liked and used Rivens currently (I'm not active in-game, indifferent toward Rivens but think they were a good concept, and haven't cracked my first one), I'd want to keep all of them. I'd treat the slots issue as I do for warframes, weapons and companions: like an investment in growing my collection.

16 hours ago, Krion112 said:

I'd much rather learn a weapon and its behaviors, and know how to utilize those behaviors to my benefit, than just be able to slap on a +900% damage and completely ignore its nuance. Unfortunately, as usual, I'm probably in the minority.

How do you feel the nuance weapons perform in higher tier content? I understand the appeal of the damage boost, but would prefer unique utility (weapon passives).

16 hours ago, Krion112 said:

Are Underused Weapons even a problem?

However, as my final point, I don't believe that underused weapons are truly a problem anyway. Just because the majority of the playerbase seem drawn to the weapons of the positions on the balance matrices I noted above, that doesn't mean the weapons they're not using are poorly designed or actually under-powered; the management required by those weapons just isn't what they want to play. Some players actually deliberately seek out harder to manage systems, as it appeals to them more. So, truly, there's not much of a problem to begin with, unless there's an unspoken, ulterior motive as to why DE wants underused weapons to be in popular use.

I think the only way they're a problem is that they don't perform as effectively in higher tier content, statistically, which may explain why DE felt statistics boosts for Rivens was a viable option to renew the content. Doesn't change the fact that sometimes the stats they've chosen to boost often don't make sense, or don't impact gameplay enough to warrant their use

Your post is definitely a lot of food for thought. I don't think they're [DE] wrong, but I also don't think Rivens as a system is achieving their stated goal. 

I enjoyed the post, bro. 

 

[P0Pz]

OP thanks for your effort. Was interessting to read..jep i did read it all.

After all, DE trys to evade with any possibilities they have, to establish a weapons rank. While we players see it already.

Rank 1 ~ low lvl 0 - XX

Rank 2 ~ low/mid lvl xx - xx

Rank 3 ~ mid lvl xx - xx 

Rank 4 ~ mid/high lvl xx - xxx

Rank 5 ~ general high lvl xxx - xxx

Rank 6 / Legendary ~ ( ? )

 

As soon a player reaches a certain lvl range, he will use the next better weapon he can build. Which represents ~ the next rankup weapon.

The gun at lower rank will be left behind. And will mostly not be touched again.

That is nothing bad. It is normal. In like every game. It is progress. A low lvl weapon should never be able to do the same "job" as a 2 rank higher weapon.

 

The riven, trys to push "unused weapons". They try to say so...

Kela's MODs does the same job for the exact same reason! You beat the kela boss and get 1 out of all MODs droped guaranteed. Some are crap, some decent but 2/3 are worth the run.

If this Rivens are for unused guns...

- why are they made as if you try to pull out of it a legendary weapon?

- why not for each "unused-gun" 2 different fix MODs to grind for?

- the 4 RNGs within each RIVEN is totaly overdone for this try to push back "unused-guns". 

- the reroll costs are kinda legendary too.

So...for "A unused Gun" to take all this effort from a player it is waay to much to go for. Special: there is a posibility never to get any good roll in this x4 rngs which is the fail within a grind game.

Then this riven mod slots limititation...on top if you need more pay PL...

...just that a player can use "unused guns" again?

Dunno why but i can not take THIS siriously. It is a bad joke and absolut NOT GOOD for the game.

 

 

 

[Xebov]

18 hours ago, Arkvold said:

Let me see if I can accurately TL;DR this further, and put it into more plain language.

Riven mods don't succeed because they're completely randomized.  Even when the bonuses they provide are unambiguously good, they don't take into account what the weapon they're for is supposed to do, and instead add flat stats which may or may not help its intended function.  Sometimes, these stats can be so excessive that they dilute the function of the weapon.  If you have a rocket launcher that shoots as fast as an assault rifle, has almost no AoE, and vastly improved magazine and max ammo counts, then you're probably going to use it like an assault rifle rather than a rocket launcher.

A better solution would be Riven mods taking into account the weapons they are generated for, and selecting stats that are specifically useful to that weapon and its intended function.  Perhaps Rivens could be implemented with bonuses that are weapon or weapon-class specific, and reward the behaviors that the weapon is meant to be used for (such as an Ogris Riven having additional blast radius, or bonus damage for every target after the first that's caught in its blast, rewarding its use on crowds).

You forgot something here. Most of the less used weapons have very bad base stats or bad mechanics. No Riven can help a weapon that already has low damage/crit/status values and thus has no strength that can be build on.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

they do work as intended:

powercreeping carrot-on-a-stick platsinks also serving as an excuse not to manually revise weapon balancing.

the end.

[P0Pz]

18 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

they do work as intended:

powercreeping carrot-on-a-stick platsinks also serving as an excuse not to manually revise weapon balancing.

the end.

Perfect

[Krion112]

On 12/14/2016 at 1:01 PM, TaylorsContraction said:

-snip-

In a way, your examples kind of illustrate the point I was trying to make. Because I have many responses to get to, I won't elaborate, but if you want me to, I will in another response.

 

8 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

The section above seemed like an unfinished thought.

Strange, I even recall typing that to full. Perhaps I erased it for revision and got sidetracked; I've since repaired it.

8 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

-snip-

And doing such things is actually the reason why nuance-necessary weapons are underused. Nuance only rewards equally to non-Nuance, when it should be that nuance rewards better than non-nuance, just because it's so much harder to execute. By not rewarding nuance more than straight forward combat, we see weapons fall out of use.

Syndicate passives are a whole other issue, so I won't address them, but they obviously don't solve the issue either, given that I have yet to see certain Syndicate weapons see any use.

I don't see how not being able to hang onto all Riven mods is a contradiction of Orthogonal/Non-Orthogonal design. Orthogonal design is the differentiation of behaviors and nuance between elements in a game system. It is a contradiction compared to conventional mods, however, but I think it was stated it exists because of the way our profiles have their data stored, and if it wasn't stated, I'd assume that was the real reason.

8 hours ago, Rhekemi said:

How do you feel the nuance weapons perform in higher tier content? I understand the appeal of the damage boost, but would prefer unique utility

You know I have the game-design figured out, so I actually know what counters what. For example, I have a build with Ash the utilizes the Buzlok to eliminate Sentient enemies on Lua. Or a Glaxion build with Frost to deal with high level Grineer. Or using Nyx equipped with the Mutalist Quanta against high level Infestation.

I have yet to encounter a weapon with nuance that is useless in Warframe. The issue is that utilizing this nuance only rewards as much as non-nuance, despite being more difficult to execute. This is why there's a fallacy that these weapons are under-powered; you're working harder for equal gain, and it feels off.

And the only reason DE keeps this going is because they seem confused about the difference between Orthogonal and Non-Orthogonal design, or are at least having a great deal of trouble getting them to mesh together so as to appeal to multiple play-styles.

 

6 hours ago, P0Pz said:

As soon a player reaches a certain lvl range, he will use the next better weapon he can build. Which represents ~ the next rankup weapon.

The gun at lower rank will be left behind. And will mostly not be touched again.

That is nothing bad. It is normal. In like every game. It is progress. A low lvl weapon should never be able to do the same "job" as a 2 rank higher weapon.

Well, DE is trying to simultaneously appeal to the player that wants to stick to their favored weapons, while also give players that want to achieve and master everything. Unfortunately, this is also a contradiction in their design because the Mastery rank system can only go so far if you only use so many weapons.

Warframe is a game of progression, but I'm quite fine if they can make side-grade weapons work, as long as they all are efficient in certain regards.

 

6 hours ago, Xebov said:

No Riven can help a weapon that already has low damage/crit/status values and thus has no strength that can be build on.

A weapon with poor stats having no redeeming qualities is the mentality I'm trying to expose as being the force driving the game in the wrong direction.

If the Penta only dealt about 100 damage as its base damage, it wouldn't be very useful. But, if its behavior is that if it's detonated while the grenades are resting that it gains +500% damage (on top of whatever amount of damage you've modded it for), plus additional blast radius, suddenly its base stats don't matter, and what matters is its behavior as a weapon.

Unless, that's not what you mean, but I feel the fact we're way to attached the Damage/Crit/Status numbers is cultivating even worse meta practices.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Krion112

[P0Pz]

4 minutes ago, Krion112 said:

~snip~

Well spoken. I accept that point of view from player 2 player. I like how you wrote it. Neutral. For that 1 like 😉.

We play the same game, we love it. But some points one loves more... the other less.

I wish ya good times. Enjoy the countdown to christmass buddy.

[Xebov]

1 hour ago, Krion112 said:

A weapon with poor stats having no redeeming qualities is the mentality I'm trying to expose as being the force driving the game in the wrong direction.

If the Penta only dealt about 100 damage as its base damage, it wouldn't be very useful. But, if its behavior is that if it's detonated while the grenades are resting that it gains +500% damage (on top of whatever amount of damage you've modded it for), plus additional blast radius, suddenly its base stats don't matter, and what matters is its behavior as a weapon.

Unless, that's not what you mean, but I feel the fact we're way to attached the Damage/Crit/Status numbers is cultivating even worse meta practices.

Thats exactly what i mean. Yes most weapons lack special capabilities, but not all of them would be usefull, as the game is still very fast. We have no other chance then being attached to Damage/Crit/Status. We have Sorties or special rewards for doing 75min Fissure Survival, which require some degree of power to complete. Its a sad thing, but the game would require fundamental changes to make most of the weapons available usefull.

[Rhekemi]

On 12/15/2016 at 2:12 PM, Krion112 said:

Strange, I even recall typing that to full. Perhaps I erased it for revision and got sidetracked; I've since repaired it.

It happens (especially when editing as we go, and writing a decent amount of text).

On 12/15/2016 at 2:12 PM, Krion112 said:

Syndicate passives are a whole other issue, so I won't address them, but they obviously don't solve the issue either, given that I have yet to see certain Syndicate weapons see any use.

Noted, but I think that's more to do with poor passives being chosen (we had some better options, but they were not chosen: I think it's still to do with DE not wanting to create overpowered new metas, direct buffs). The system itself, I think is still great: provide specific utilities via passives, and synergy passives between a WF and [insert gear]. It'd be great to see that expanded on and not get shelved as DE moves on to a new system without the time to give the last idea proper attention.

On 12/15/2016 at 2:12 PM, Krion112 said:

I don't see how not being able to hang onto all Riven mods is a contradiction of Orthogonal/Non-Orthogonal design. Orthogonal design is the differentiation of behaviors and nuance between elements in a game system.

It isn't one (in that sense). But selling Riven mods only keep others contradicts our penchant for wanting to keep everything unique

On 12/15/2016 at 2:12 PM, Krion112 said:

It is a contradiction compared to conventional mods, however, but I think it was stated it exists because of the way our profiles have their data stored, and if it wasn't stated, I'd assume that was the real reason.

The reasoning's fine, but if you don't buy the extra slots you've got to sell them--that's the part I find contradicts.

On 12/15/2016 at 2:12 PM, Krion112 said:

You know I have the game-design figured out, so I actually know what counters what. For example, I have a build with Ash the utilizes the Buzlok to eliminate Sentient enemies on Lua. Or a Glaxion build with Frost to deal with high level Grineer. Or using Nyx equipped with the Mutalist Quanta against high level Infestation.

I have yet to encounter a weapon with nuance that is useless in Warframe. The issue is that utilizing this nuance only rewards as much as non-nuance, despite being more difficult to execute. This is why there's a fallacy that these weapons are under-powered; you're working harder for equal gain, and it feels off.

And the only reason DE keeps this going is because they seem confused about the difference between Orthogonal and Non-Orthogonal design, or are at least having a great deal of trouble getting them to mesh together so as to appeal to multiple play-styles.

Agreed, though I think it's more they're having a hard time melding the two than not understanding the difference. I haven't pursued nuanced weapons as much, though.

 

[Cortanis]

On 12/14/2016 at 11:47 AM, Krion112 said:

TL;DR

• Riven Mods only encourage weapons with behavioral nuance to forego their nuance, with nuance being the reason those weapons are fun in the first place
• They may not work anyway due to the fact certain weapons do not benefit from certain statistics (damage for snipers, magazine size for Penta, etc)
• Riven Mods need to actually improve the behavioral function of a Weapon, helping that weapon to reward its play-style instead of conforming to the meta
• Or, at the very least, behavioral improving perks should be included as a method of improving nuance weapons; Riven mods already identify to a specific weapon
• Underused weapons aren't truly a problem anyway, though, as naturally the way Warframe is designed, players would seek out the faster and more streamlined strategies regardless, but this doesn't mean nuance weapons are under-powered

 

On 12/14/2016 at 0:09 PM, Arkvold said:

Let me see if I can accurately TL;DR this further, and put it into more plain language.

Riven mods don't succeed because they're completely randomized.  Even when the bonuses they provide are unambiguously good, they don't take into account what the weapon they're for is supposed to do, and instead add flat stats which may or may not help its intended function.  Sometimes, these stats can be so excessive that they dilute the function of the weapon.  If you have a rocket launcher that shoots as fast as an assault rifle, has almost no AoE, and vastly improved magazine and max ammo counts, then you're probably going to use it like an assault rifle rather than a rocket launcher.

A better solution would be Riven mods taking into account the weapons they are generated for, and selecting stats that are specifically useful to that weapon and its intended function.  Perhaps Rivens could be implemented with bonuses that are weapon or weapon-class specific, and reward the behaviors that the weapon is meant to be used for (such as an Ogris Riven having additional blast radius, or bonus damage for every target after the first that's caught in its blast, rewarding its use on crowds).

Does this sound right to you?

Problem is that most of the player base has recognized all of this, but the overlords of DE are yet as unwilling to bite the bullet and admit they SNAFU'd the entire thing like many things before and deal with it. Instead, they're holding up the system as being a massive success and godsend.... while the player base recognizes the king as being naked.

[_Vortus_]

Huh.   So after that very long post and responses, the gist of it to me is the Rivens I got for the Karak, Paracyst, Mutalist Cernos don't make them good enough to play now?    Damn, here I thought they were pretty decent weapons with the Rivens, that previously without the Rivens I didn't like at all.  Guess I was wrong.

Some of us enjoy unwrapping presents.   Sometimes its socks, sometimes its GI Joe with a Kung Fu Grip (or a Barbie if that's your thing).   Some seem to want to tell Santa what to put under the tree and only what they want will suffice.  I enjoy the randomness and the surprise.   If you are going to dictate what you want then they might as well just hand to you without playing at all.  

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On December 15, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Krion112 said:

In a way, your examples kind of illustrate the point I was trying to make. Because I have many responses to get to, I won't elaborate, but if you want me to, I will in another response.

 

Strange, I even recall typing that to full. Perhaps I erased it for revision and got sidetracked; I've since repaired it.

And doing such things is actually the reason why nuance-necessary weapons are underused. Nuance only rewards equally to non-Nuance, when it should be that nuance rewards better than non-nuance, just because it's so much harder to execute. By not rewarding nuance more than straight forward combat, we see weapons fall out of use.

Syndicate passives are a whole other issue, so I won't address them, but they obviously don't solve the issue either, given that I have yet to see certain Syndicate weapons see any use.

I don't see how not being able to hang onto all Riven mods is a contradiction of Orthogonal/Non-Orthogonal design. Orthogonal design is the differentiation of behaviors and nuance between elements in a game system. It is a contradiction compared to conventional mods, however, but I think it was stated it exists because of the way our profiles have their data stored, and if it wasn't stated, I'd assume that was the real reason.

You know I have the game-design figured out, so I actually know what counters what. For example, I have a build with Ash the utilizes the Buzlok to eliminate Sentient enemies on Lua. Or a Glaxion build with Frost to deal with high level Grineer. Or using Nyx equipped with the Mutalist Quanta against high level Infestation.

I have yet to encounter a weapon with nuance that is useless in Warframe. The issue is that utilizing this nuance only rewards as much as non-nuance, despite being more difficult to execute. This is why there's a fallacy that these weapons are under-powered; you're working harder for equal gain, and it feels off.

And the only reason DE keeps this going is because they seem confused about the difference between Orthogonal and Non-Orthogonal design, or are at least having a great deal of trouble getting them to mesh together so as to appeal to multiple play-styles.

 

Well, DE is trying to simultaneously appeal to the player that wants to stick to their favored weapons, while also give players that want to achieve and master everything. Unfortunately, this is also a contradiction in their design because the Mastery rank system can only go so far if you only use so many weapons.

Warframe is a game of progression, but I'm quite fine if they can make side-grade weapons work, as long as they all are efficient in certain regards.

 

A weapon with poor stats having no redeeming qualities is the mentality I'm trying to expose as being the force driving the game in the wrong direction.

If the Penta only dealt about 100 damage as its base damage, it wouldn't be very useful. But, if its behavior is that if it's detonated while the grenades are resting that it gains +500% damage (on top of whatever amount of damage you've modded it for), plus additional blast radius, suddenly its base stats don't matter, and what matters is its behavior as a weapon.

Unless, that's not what you mean, but I feel the fact we're way to attached the Damage/Crit/Status numbers is cultivating even worse meta practices.

Mine is a "Riven" journey I've only just begun.  I'm not a particularly skilled player.  I love the immersion and beauty of the game.  I play consistently (currently MR 21) but am not META-centric to the exclusion of experiencing the breadth of the game's nuance via DE's efforts.

Mine is, atm, a flawed success story in terms of DE's vision for Rivens. After a single re-roll, I've gotten a decent Riven for the strongly dispositioned Pantera.

Base Stats:

+ .3 punch through 

+ 20% damage

+ 7% reload speed

I'm currently building the Miter to level to 30 and then the Pantera to try the unique 2ndary Alt-fire mechanic as a terror weapon with my Volt Prime that has end-game viability.  The Riven is working as DE intended.

However, DE needs to make absolutely sure weapons function as intended, and if useless and negative stats are to remain, then at least back the Rivens with lore as to why.

Hence, if the Pantera's standard fire mode is bugged so that punch through doesn't work, as I've read, that is a HUGE issue, and if you are going to drop a + Crit % of any kind on a weapon with 0% Crit chance, you better alter it to at least 5% or explain why.  Default Minimums would be nice.

Lastly, I think a sister system of weapon specialization similar to focus that is Orthogonal should exist as a parallel, but incompatible choice to Rivens (meaning you can't equip Rivens on specialized weapons without negating specialization).

Choice and individual expression are Warframe's game design strengths, and a weapon specialization (nuanced playstyle modifiers) system that is:

lvl 1: Choose a class of weapon

(Primary/Secondary/Melee)

lvl 2: Subclass by weapon type or faction

lvl 3: Unique weapon

lvl 4: Unique cosmetics for said weapon once progression requirements are met.

This addresses the problems that a non-orthogonal Riven system presents, allows for the revenue-generating systems needed to support the game, and allows both to be viable if balanced.

Let me be able to create and control my playstyle and look of my Pantera as a weapon specialist through time, effort, and optional $...

AND let me have the option to take a chance on getting some incredible, unparalleled outliers by testing the chaotic, Void-afflicted Riven system.

Thoughts?

Edited December 19, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Ranchpig]

You've obviously put a lot of thought into this but as another said, DE's stated purpose is not accurate, so unfortunately all the thought is moot.
 

Their only goal is to get more money and Rivens are probably one of the greatest accomplishments at getting that money.  More weapon slots, forma's, trade plat, etc.  

The real problem with Rivens are that they are stat based.   Like you said they should be behavioral (playstyle).   Many cool suggestions have been made like richochet shots, healing shots, explosive shells, freeze shots, things that have nothing to do with current stats.   Imagine a crap weapon that could become so incredibly fun, novel, and one of a kind.   Now that would be something I think we'd all have a hoot with.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

3 hours ago, Ranchpig said:

You've obviously put a lot of thought into this but as another said, DE's stated purpose is not accurate, so unfortunately all the thought is moot.
 

Their only goal is to get more money and Rivens are probably one of the greatest accomplishments at getting that money.  More weapon slots, forma's, trade plat, etc.  

The real problem with Rivens are that they are stat based.   Like you said they should be behavioral (playstyle).   Many cool suggestions have been made like richochet shots, healing shots, explosive shells, freeze shots, things that have nothing to do with current stats.   Imagine a crap weapon that could become so incredibly fun, novel, and one of a kind.   Now that would be something I think we'd all have a hoot with.

Are you responding to my post?

Let's get one thing straight:

EVERY game feature within DE's business model will have design considerations for incentivizing players to spend money to continue to make Warframe a success.

It's an inherent, responsible business practice necessary for Warframe's success.  Can't deal with it?  Time to move on.  Onto Rivens...

Yes, Rivens are another way to make DE money in small ways.

But if you are so disgruntled that it skews your perception into believing it is ONLY for money without providing any value, and that my thoughts or OP's are "moot", it comes across as naive and entitled.

I've already shown that a single Riven modified and expanded my playstyle as a long-term player.  I've farmed and built the Miter (I had it on the backburner) and am looking forward to breathing new life into the strongly disposed but flawed and rarely used Pantera.

All the special trick-shot variations you mention? Yeah, they require a significant investment of time, money, and coding expertise.

I've even suggested a sister "weapon specialization sister system" to complement Rivens as an alternative that, yes, I would hope DE would ALSO use to make money.

Those who default-demonize DE for being a successful business that knows how to incentivize players who spend money so that they can keep expanding the game and earn a living have zero credibility in my book if they haven't invested in DE's efforts and/or aren't providing constructive criticism.

It didn't directly cost me anything for my Riven. People will always find fault in a P2P system if they want to play on someone else's dime and their "free" experience doesn't equal the "paid" experience of a player who has invested in the game.

The reality is that people who invest are more important, because it gives people who play for free A FREE GAME TO PLAY.

Edited December 19, 2016 by (PS4)Silverback73

[Krion112]

8 hours ago, Ranchpig said:

You've obviously put a lot of thought into this but as another said, DE's stated purpose is not accurate, so unfortunately all the thought is moot.

Their only goal is to get more money and Rivens are probably one of the greatest accomplishments at getting that money.  More weapon slots, forma's, trade plat, etc.  

We can slam DE all day long for being greedy, but that neither makes it true nor does it solve anything. I'm inclined to believe that it's not DE's entire agenda to make money. It certainly is one of their agendas, but there are other reasons mechanics and additions get put into the game as they are.

It's more like DE is only trying to gain money so that they can provide us a better game. It means the people with low patience buy more tediously acquired things, which gives DE more cash flow to create quality content for players who only buy when the game impresses them.

I think sometimes we see so much evil in the game industry we forget there is good. The devs here exude passion, and I don't doubt for a moment that they want Warframe to be a good game first before it makes money. The issue is they've gone into experimental territory, and are fumbling with a bunch of systems they've never had to use in this combination.

 

8 hours ago, Ranchpig said:

The real problem with Rivens are that they are stat based.   Like you said they should be behavioral (playstyle).   Many cool suggestions have been made like richochet shots, healing shots, explosive shells, freeze shots, things that have nothing to do with current stats.   Imagine a crap weapon that could become so incredibly fun, novel, and one of a kind.   Now that would be something I think we'd all have a hoot with.

That, and the issue with the weapons that are supposed to benefit from Rivens tend to be nuance weapons, which necessitate micro-managing. The problem in Warframe's design is that weapons with nuance, that require more management, only ever reward as much for proper use as it is to use weapons that do not require nuance.

Why would I sit around and wait with a Penta or Opticor, when I could mow through the enemy with a Zarr or Soma? If I did wait, I would kill as much as a Zarr or Soma, but it requires better aim, better timing, and more resource management. I'm paying more only for equal.

It's also not about novelty, it's about nuance; the way you execute a weapon in tandem with its stats is what determines its role, which appeals to certain play-styles. Novelty means you're just adding a mechanic because it's unique, and let me just say, that idea never carries much. If its novel with proper nuance and stats, then you have an awesome weapon. But novelty will not hold up a mechanic on its own.

[Skaleek]

Quite enjoyed reading your post, OP. Thanks for your take on the Riven Mods situation, and to a greater extent weapon balance as a whole.

[Ranchpig]

You misunderstand.  I have absolutely no problem with DE's business model.   I think it's great.  The more money they make, theoretically the better the game will be.   I'm saying that you were basing your suggestions based off of their said intent to get people to utilize unused weapons, which I say is rubbish.   You can't really believe DE cares what weapons we like to use.  There's no real public outcry.   I posit that it's a non-issue.   Of course they'll never come out and say, Hey, we've figured out a sure fire way to increase profits.    That would be idiotic and insulting.   They necessarily try and convince their customers that it's all for them.   Most businesses do it.    In fact politician do it all they time.   "It's for the Children!!!"  "It's for your own safety"   Hogwash.

Another example is the much retorted, "we're trying to reduce the grindiness"    No one really believes that and we giggle because grinding is part and parcel of free to play.   We accept it and smirk that they think we believe them.

I like a lot of your suggestions and hopefully they'll consider some.   But at the moment, I think they really have no advantage doing so.   Rivens are a cash cow at the moment.    They'll get wave 2 & 3 with secondary/melee's but they'll eventually lose some of their novelty and things will resume normally.   Honestly, the best thing they could do is to remove the Mandatory damage mods, but that will require a pretty substantial overhaul/re-balancing and again it all comes down to incentives.   Theirs and ours.   Sometimes they work together and sometimes not.

[(PSN)yumiko1630]

i don't like to say it but i havent, read all of your posts, if i say something you already mentioned, sorry.... and sorry for my bad grammar, and missing english skills.

 

so what do i think are the advantages, disatvantages and reasons for riven, and what should be done whit them in my eyes?

 

Advantages:

they are very easy to create, you don't need to think about what a specific weapon needs, and you don't need 4 different mods to make everyone happy.                

we have something to do, farming, riven, kuva,cycling and testing around whit new riven mods can keep us busy for ages, and i quit like some kuva missions.                

 they will bring new attention to less used weapons, and might help players finding weapons they really like but never tryed out, because they new that their rhino whit a key in the face+boltor prime+vaykor marelok combo was stronger.

new stuff to trade for means more platinum is changing its owner= more player will have the platinum they want.

 

Disatvantages:

Totally random: they can be very frustrating, and will only help already decent or good weapons

Specific Riven slots are a middlefinger to collectors, and really dont help bringing more attentiont to weaker weapons

increasing rerolling kost is bullS#&$, it will frustrate users of complicated weapons and ruin the prices, whitout doing anything good at all.

 

What should be done?

un-randomize the stats (no idea what this means) so for example you have a riven mod for a good weapon, so you ll have a weak riven what buff dos it give now? between +50% and +OVER9000% damage (slightly exaggerated but the point remains) this will make it impossible to ever find the perfekt mod, and nullify the affords of making bad weapons good, also some players will have luck and get ridiculos somas, while others will struggle to get a bit extra damage for their supra (seriously if got a +165.5% DMG for the lanka and a +80% DMG for the supra...) and even worse its so easy to give them fixed stats: weak riven mod: sligtly weaker than the regular counterpart (in this example serration so +140% Damage) neutral riven mod: slightly stronger than the regular counterpart (+180% in this example) Strong riven mod: way stronger than the original mod (+200%)

let us Choose what Pre/suffix, Core and debuff we want: whenever you reroll, you ll pay (2000-5000 kuva its up to you to decide what is best) and can change the pre/suffix, core or debuff, this wont make strong weapons way stronger than they are already, whit riven, but allow everyone to get a great riven, and to buff weak weapons, like they should.

get rid of the stupid riven capacity, the only thing you do whit the capacity is make a lot of players very angry, especally if it can be increased whit plat.

 

 

Side note: i really don't think that underused weapons are a problem, i actually think their great, and shouldnt be changed mindlessly, especally not the warframes, its nearly always bad becaus DE listens to the people who don't like said frame and will not like it after it was changed, because they already have their favorit frame.

i also would like to add that OP weapons and frames are fine as long as they aren't so strong that you have no choice but use them for good results (e.g. Valkyr/Ash/trinity didnt deserve their rework, shure some slight changes (for Valkyr: allowing energy leec eximus to draw your energy while in hysteria, slightly higer hysteria cost, and a slowly decreasing damage multiplier(if you dont hit anything or get hit by something for like 20 seconds) would be way better than lowering her sprint multiplier: OH THAT FRAME IS SO OP IT CAN SPRINT SLIGHTLY FASTER THAN THE MAJORITY OF FRAMES WHITOUT BEEING LOKI NERF IT!!!))

 

 

 

 

im sorry im still sad because of my beloved angel of deht (pun intended)

Edited December 20, 2016 by (PS4)yumiko1630