Cap the Cumulative Login System's Unique Rewards

[Sahansral]

2 hours ago, Callback said:

Second:  The people who think I want to stop rewarding continuous players?  Where did I ever say that?  I said to cap off the unique rewards from the system, not destroy the system entirely.  I gave a solid argument for the continuation of login sigils to provide a nice cosmetic token for those players to show off, as well as a continuous stream of non-progression related rewards (and argued for increasing their value over simple potatoes and boosters).

A sigil? A nice cosmetic token?

Not an attractive offer at all, so I politely decline. I'd rather prefer a system that encourages commitment and keep the current one with real login rewards. Thank you, have a nice day.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Sahansral

[TaylorsContraction]

I feel like a lot of people in this thread are misunderstanding what op wants.

Op DOES NOT WANT REMOVAL OF DAILY LOG IN REWARDS. op simply wants a cap. How long should it go for?  2, 3, 4, 5 years?

Personally I think 2 years is fine after which players will just draw from a general reward pool.  There's no reason for this system to be indefinite. I also like the suggestion someone made that if you log in ever day of the week /month you get a small bonus like a 3 day booster or something.

[Liminal]

11 hours ago, Faulcun said:

If, after ceasing development, the game DOES remain online for as long as the system was out, then lots of people WILL be able to catch up.

Which is quite unlikely. But yeah, thing is you cannot tell him he will be able to catch up because neither of us knows what'll happen. You cannot tell someone "Stop complaining, it'll be fine" if you don't know with certainty if it will actually be fine.

11 hours ago, Faulcun said:

However, if he is that upset about it, then perhaps he should not have abandoned the game for over a year, and supported it instead.

Don't act like not logging in is "abandoning" the game. There's no direct relationship between supporting the game and logging in every day. I used to spend a lot more money on WF in 2014-15 (prime access, prime cosmetics, bundles, etc), yet I logged in 3 or 4 times a week.

11 hours ago, Faulcun said:

i have no problem with anybody obtaining these rewards. I have a problem with them not earning it.

That's circular reasoning. The method for earning it is the very thing being discussed here. 

[taiiat]

21 hours ago, Callback said:

• It not only discourages, but actively punishes breaks from the game
• It prohibits both new and returning players form ever catching up

what did you lose out on by not logging in a day here and there? oh right, literally nothing. if you play the game regularly, you will get everything.

if you get triggered² by not having everything right now, you should open your eyes and look around you in the world. and get triggered⁹⁹⁹ at all of the Players have have things that you don't.
if you want to be a special snowflake that has everything first, you're going to have to pay attention to Warframe on a daily basis.
get over it.

 

oh no! you weren't first, and therefore you aren't first! what a world ending calamity that your place in line doesn't change, ever. (unless you voluntarily step backwards)
do you also call authorities when you're standing in a line to try and get as many people arrested for nothing as possible so that you can be closer to the front of the line? you got there in 25876th place, but obviously you deserve first place, because you said so! those people that were there before you obviously don't deserve blah blah as much as you, because you're so much more important!

get over yourself.

Edited December 23, 2016 by taiiat

[Faulcun]

10 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

Which is quite unlikely. But yeah, thing is you cannot tell him he will be able to catch up because neither of us knows what'll happen. You cannot tell someone "Stop complaining, it'll be fine" if you don't know with certainty if it will actually be fine.

Don't act like not logging in is "abandoning" the game. There's no direct relationship between supporting the game and logging in every day. I used to spend a lot more money on WF in 2014-15 (prime access, prime cosmetics, bundles, etc), yet I logged in 3 or 4 times a week.

That's circular reasoning. The method for earning it is the very thing being discussed here. 

I never made the claim that everything would be fine. More accurately it would be stated "Stop complaining, and take responsibility for your absence."

Abandoning or not, this system has been live for more than a year now and he is just now discovering the changes. That was his decision. This game is still considered beta, it is ever changing, redesigned, and will continue to do so. Im sorry reality has hit him like a dump truck, and shown the consequences of his actions.

The method is super simple. Play the game, or dont. No safe space, cry room, or therapy donkey is going to take the responsibility off the shoulders of the user to make that choice.

[Callback]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Whattamattu said:

they are missing your points for they are meaningless

 

why should you, new players and returning players get things faster then i, as someone who made an effort to get something, did?

by your logic and crying/whining you want what i have....  you said you have well over 2k hours in game.... i just hit 1600 hours, guess i used 

my time more efficiently (was here before this current login system) and am at MR22.

just like in real life, you want something, then get up and put in some effort yourself. dont go crying because others did and have things you dont

login rewards are just that... rewards     you want them then put the effort and time in like everyone else... if you want pay to win.. those games are ----->

this is one of the very few games out there where being a wallet warrior doesn't help what so ever...

 

DM let you re-take your spot check and you still crit failed.

Who asked for things faster?  I asked for an end to the progression-related rewards from daily logins.  An end that will take everyone the exact same amount of time to reach.  And other rewards continuing beyond that to actually reward players instead of gating progression.

Please just take 10 on your spot check here.

This has nothing to do with effort.  Effort doesn't make up a single day's worth of difference in this system.  It is a hard gate.  Anyone behind is forever behind.  Unlike all other aspects of this game where effort DOES matter and you CAN out-pace the content schedule, daily logins limit your "progression" to 1 per day, while the bar raises at that same speed.  People behind will literally always be behind.  That's why we can't have infinite progression in the system.  We can have a finite amount in, it just needs an end.  Having an end allows actual progress towards it.

And as far as paying, my point was that we already DO have people paying.  The reason free players can get plat at all is people paying to skip the grind.  That plat has to come from SOMEWHERE, and the people buying it are trading their money for your time.  It's a fair deal, and the market works.  Are you arguing that plat trading should be removed from the game?

[Callback]

5 minutes ago, taiiat said:

what did you lose out on by not logging in a day here and there? oh right, literally nothing. if you play the game regularly, you will get everything.

if you get triggered² by not having everything right now, you should open your eyes and look around you in the world. and get triggered⁹⁹⁹ at all of the Players have have things that you don't.
if you want to be a special snowflake that has everything first, you're going to have to pay attention to Warframe on a daily basis.
get over it.

 

oh no! you weren't first, and therefore you aren't first! what a world ending calamity that your place in line doesn't change, ever. (unless you voluntarily step backwards)
do you also call authorities when you're standing in a line to try and get as many people arrested for nothing as possible so that you can be closer to the front of the line? you got there in 25876th place, but obviously you deserve first place, because you said so! those people that were there before you obviously don't deserve blah blah as much as you, because you're so much more important!

get over yourself.

Lines end.  Nobody is asking to be first.  I'm saying that the system should be a waiting line.  The people in front get it first, but there's actually an end to the line that everyone can eventually reach.

 

If you play the game regularly you will NOT get everything.  If I am 2 disc launchers behind the system, and I play regularly for 100 more releases, I will still be missing 2 disc launchers.  At no point in all those years will I have ever had everything.  "If you play the game regularly you will [eventually] get everything" is what I am trying to make true.  Tying weapons and mods to an endless daily login count is what goes against this.  Nobody is asking to skip anything.  There just needs to be an end that exists to reach.

[taiiat]

1 minute ago, Callback said:

There just needs to be an end that exists to reach.

the end is everything that is in the system at the current time. you are incentivized to continue logging in with more Rewards put into it.
each Reward of high interest, that is placed about three months apart from each other - you'll get all of them.

in the same amount of Login Rewards that it took every other Player.

 

'but i want everything past present and future' - then claim your Login Rewards. and you will.

[-N7-Leonhart]

22 hours ago, Callback said:

-snip-

You have it backwards.

The reward system is not there to "punish" those that won't log in constantly. It's there to reward those that do. In the eyes of the developers, those two groups of people are not worth equally as much and they are not rewarded just as well. It's virtually the same with time-limited gear (founder's stuff, event weapons, anniversary weapons).

[Callback]

There is one type of person the current system benefits.

 

Sadists.

 

Bartle's clubs.  Killers with no real outlet since conclave is so dead.  People who try to use video games as outlets for their sadistic tendencies with a shield of anonymity to protect them from the kinds of consequences acting that way in real life would bring.

 

These are the players who can actually gain satisfaction from the current system.  Knowing they forever have an advantage over other players.  Relishing the frustration and resentment of players who are being screwed over by the system.  Always equipping the newest one to rub it in further that there is a MR gap that can never be breached.

 

Clubs who are the biggest driving force in leading diamonds (achievers) to quit games.  Diamonds, as their name implies, are frequently the biggest spenders as well.

 

Do we really want a system in the game that tries to drive away diamonds?

[Callback]

2 minutes ago, taiiat said:

the end is everything that is in the system at the current time. you are incentivized to continue logging in with more Rewards put into it.
each Reward of high interest, that is placed about three months apart from each other - you'll get all of them.

in the same amount of Login Rewards that it took every other Player.

 

'but i want everything past present and future' - then claim your Login Rewards. and you will.

Yes, I want to be able to reach the end in the same number of logins as every other player.

But in the current system there is no end.No, people will never get all of them.  Again, if you are 2 weapons behind, by the time you claim #100, #102 will already be out.  You just wasted 55 years of your life to make zero progress in closing that gap.

 

The weapons and mods need to stop, or at least stop being unique.  If the system has an end, then yes, players CAN eventually claim "all" of their daily logins and have everything, in the exact same amount of time as it took the first people to finish.  And the people that did finish will have already moved on to the continuous reward stream beyond that, where they will have amassed a fortune of repeatable rewards, and maybe some rarities that are not entirely exclusive to them, but are still highly valuable and other players will have to go through a mess of different systems to get them instead of having it for free like they did as a reward for their dedication.  They will still be ahead in terms of how much they have earned by the time other players catch up in terms of the weapons and primeds.  But for the weapons and primeds, the things that matter, there will be that endpoint that everyone eventually spills out into.

 

It's that simple.

[Callback]

12 minutes ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

You have it backwards.

The reward system is not there to "punish" those that won't log in constantly. It's there to reward those that do. In the eyes of the developers, those two groups of people are not worth equally as much and they are not rewarded just as well. It's virtually the same with time-limited gear (founder's stuff, event weapons, anniversary weapons).

Founder stuff is weird and I wish it were just a skin.  Same with beta stuff.

 

 

Event weapons make their way into normal gameplay after a while. (currently in invasions)  Event mods do as well.

Past anniversary weapons can be claimed by logging in for any future anniversary.

All of this stuff (except founder) can be caught up on.  Login rewards do the opposite.  They impose a mandatory gap between players that can't be closed.  Ever.  If they stopped putting in weapons and primed mods and did only "care packages" beyond a certain number, that would be fine.  Then there would be an end and the gap would close slowly over time.  That's all that needs to happen.  Just end the releases of weapons and primeds in the system.  Let the 500 rifle be the end of it.

[-N7-Leonhart]

Just now, Callback said:

Founder stuff is weird and I wish it were just a skin.  Same with beta stuff.

Event weapons make their way into normal gameplay after a while. (currently in invasions)  Event mods do as well.

Past anniversary weapons can be claimed by logging in for any future anniversary.

All of this stuff (except founder) can be caught up on.  Login rewards do the opposite.  They impose a mandatory gap between players that can't be closed.  Ever.  If they stopped putting in weapons and primed mods and did only "care packages" beyond a certain number, that would be fine.  Then there would be an end and the gap would close slowly over time.  That's all that needs to happen.  Just end the releases of weapons and primeds in the system.  Let the 500 rifle be the end of it.

The gap is always there between players that play daily and those that take 150 days long breaks. Even if event weapons do make it back after like 2 years, the gap just widens more and more with even more event and time-limited exclusive stuff, event mod packs or Void trader stuff. The 2 mods and 2 weapons that you can get from the log-in rewards don't even widen that gap significantly.

If one desires everything in a grind intensive game, perhaps he should consider not virtually quitting the game for half a year at a time?

[Liminal]

45 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

I never made the claim that everything would be fine. More accurately it would be stated "Stop complaining, and take responsibility for your absence."

Abandoning or not, this system has been live for more than a year now and he is just now discovering the changes. That was his decision. This game is still considered beta, it is ever changing, redesigned, and will continue to do so. Im sorry reality has hit him like a dump truck, and shown the consequences of his actions.

The method is super simple. Play the game, or dont. No safe space, cry room, or therapy donkey is going to take the responsibility off the shoulders of the user to make that choice.

No, you made the claim that he'd be able to catch up without knowing for sure if that was possible.

It's been live for a year yeah, that means nothing to new players.
The beta claim... well, that's a whole different discussion.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong, the answer is not "This is the way it is, suck it up": this is a feedback forum, and this is feedback.
OP has presented several arguments, some have been addressed, others have been ignored, but still: the dogmatic approach is useless in a feedback forum.

[taiiat]

37 minutes ago, Callback said:

No, people will never get all of them.  Again, if you are 2 weapons behind, by the time you claim #100, #102 will already be out.

no, you will. 

in the exact same way as everyone else did.
you aren't more special than someone else. your argument of "the game can't Reward Players with anything unless i'm there to get it too".

get over yourself.

25 minutes ago, -BM-Leonhart said:

If one desires everything in a grind intensive game, perhaps he should consider not virtually quitting the game for half a year at a time?

 

[Callback]

1 minute ago, taiiat said:

no, you will. 

in the exact same way as everyone else did.
you aren't more special than someone else. your argument of "the game can't Reward Players with anything unless i'm there to get it too".

get over yourself.

 

If my plan were used what you say would be true.  People would eventually earn everything the exact same way everyone who earned it before them did.  Everybody would have to do the exact same number of logins to move through the reward cycle to its end.

 

Now stop misrepresenting both my arguments and the system.  I never said anything you said I said.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Gonna have to disagree on that one , for the most part.

The whole point of a daily login system is to reward people that , well, play daily.

If you stop giving "decent" rewards after let's say 300 days so people can catch up and nobody's left behind, the whole system no longer has purpose.

It takes like a minute each day to log on and log off, not such a big deal. I usually log on as part of my daily routine, even if I don't feel like playing warframe. Helps DE keep their numbers up and pretend the game is more active than it actually is, too.

If you felt behind, it's not such a big deal anyway, as you'll slowly catch up and get the items, just later than other people do, I'm 30 days late or something when it comes to daily reward, since I do forget to log on or leave home every now and then... Do I care, well not really ? I'm still getting the cool items, I'm just getting them later than someone that logged in every single day since the login system was reworked.

Sure, in a couple of year, it might suck for new comers that see it will take them 4 years to get the new, somewhat cool gun that was just added to the daily login system. Maybe then will DE have to figure out a way to maybe remove filler things like caches and make it so a new player gets a significant upgrade every 25 days or something, instead of every 50/100 days like it is currently... But for now, it's fine as it is.

Edited December 23, 2016 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Callback]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

Gonna have to disagree on that one , for the most part.

The whole point of a daily login system is to reward people that , well, play daily.

If you stop giving "decent" rewards after let's say 300 days so people can catch up and nobody's left behind, the whole system no longer has purpose.

It takes like a minute each day to log on and log off, not such a big deal. I usually log on as part of my daily routine, even if I don't feel like playing warframe. Helps DE keep their numbers up and pretend the game is more active than it actually is, too.

If you felt behind, it's not such a big deal anyway, as you'll slowly catch up and get the items, just later than other people do, I'm 30 days late or something when it comes to daily reward, since I do forget to log on or leave home every now and then... Do I care, well not really ? I'm still getting the cool items, I'm just getting them later than someone that logged in every single day since the login system was reworked.

Sure, in a couple of year, it might suck for new comers that see it will take them 4 years to get the new, somewhat cool gun that was just added to the daily login system. Maybe then will DE have to figure out a way to maybe remove filler things like caches and make it so a new player gets a significant upgrade every 25 days or something, instead of every 50/100 days like it is currently... But for now, it's fine as it is.

I still want to give "decent" rewards.  Decent doesn't have to be unique.  It still serves plenty of purpose if it's split into the "mandatory" portion (weapons and mods for progression) and the "bonus" portion (really nice free gifts you would otherwise have to pay for.)

"you'll slowly catch up" is false.  You never catch up.  By the time you reach day 300 everyone else is on day 600's reward.  You are no closer to caught up than when you started.  That's the problem.

 

And this is not directed at you, but based on what you said.  It takes a minute each day to log on and off.  So the people who only do that 1 minute each day stay on top of the login counter.  Meanwhile the people who binge 3 months at a time for 8 hours a day, then take another 3 months off to recover, who are MUCH more dedicated to the game in terms of overall playtime and commitment, are the ones punished.  Being at the top of the login counter does not represent dedication.  People arguing that it does are wrong.  They are completely unrelated.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

1 minute ago, Callback said:

I still want to give "decent" rewards.  Decent doesn't have to be unique.  It still serves plenty of purpose if it's split into the "mandatory" portion (weapons and mods for progression) and the "bonus" portion (really nice free gifts you would otherwise have to pay for.)

"you'll slowly catch up" is false.  You never catch up.  By the time you reach day 300 everyone else is on day 600's reward.  You are no closer to caught up than when you started.  That's the problem.

 

And this is not directed at you, but based on what you said.  It takes a minute each day to log on and off.  So the people who only do that 1 minute each day stay on top of the login counter.  Meanwhile the people who binge 3 months at a time for 8 hours a day, then take another 3 months off to recover, who are MUCH more dedicated to the game in terms of overall playtime and commitment, are the ones punished.  Being at the top of the login counter does not represent dedication.  People arguing that it does are wrong.  They are completely unrelated.

People have different definitions of "dedication" when it comes to warframe. So many people claim that MR means nothing ,ignoring the fact that it takes an insane amount of effort to collect, build, and level every single weapon this game has to offer. Likewise, logging in everyday is still quite a feat of dedication and focus, so to speak.

I have nothing against people who binge warframe new content every couple of months. Heck, I would probably do that myself if the game wasn't build so you can miss so much stuff by going inactive... That said, warframe is a game where primes and relics constantly get retired, void trader items come every couple of weeks, events bring mods that often takes years to make it back into the regular loot table and login rewards need you to log in daily to get them. Before that, we had sortie seasons, another way to force players to be somewhat active not to miss gun parts and so on.

My point being, Warframe isn't a game where you can be a completitionnist and not log in regularly. Could this be improved . Yes. Would this broaden the appeal of the game to a bigger fanbase that aren't obsessive compulsive collector nut like myself. Defintively. Is DE going to do it, probably not.

[Callback]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

People have different definitions of "dedication" when it comes to warframe. So many people claim that MR means nothing ,ignoring the fact that it takes an insane amount of effort to collect, build, and level every single weapon this game has to offer. Likewise, logging in everyday is still quite a feat of dedication and focus, so to speak.

I have nothing against people who binge warframe new content every couple of months. Heck, I would probably do that myself if the game wasn't build so you can miss so much stuff by going inactive... That said, warframe is a game where primes and relics constantly get retired, void trader items come every couple of weeks, events bring mods that often takes years to make it back into the regular loot table and login rewards need you to log in daily to get them. Before that, we had sortie seasons, another way to force players to be somewhat active not to miss gun parts and so on.

My point being, Warframe isn't a game where you can be a completitionnist and not log in regularly. Could this be improved . Yes. Would this broaden the appeal of the game to a bigger fanbase that aren't obsessive compulsive collector nut like myself. Defintively. Is DE going to do it, probably not.

Well this is the feedback forum.  The point is to bring attention to existing problems, potential improvements, and try to get the devs on board with it.  You agree that this would be an improvement, unlike the more vocal posts in this thread.

 

You understand what this forum is for.  There's no need to try to defend things that the game currently does wrong.  This is a place for trying to help make the game better for everyone.  There's certainly no reason to attack the people trying to help improve it.  I hope most of the people who posted here can take a lesson from your comment on how to have a real feedback discussion.  Thank you.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Callback

[bubbabenali]

Man, it realy must suck to have no connection to the internet for more than a year to not be able to at least start the game once a day for less than minute.

If even thats too much to ask, why would they even care, they wont play the game never again in their live anyways.

[Drasiel]

1 hour ago, Callback said:

Well this is the feedback forum.  The point is to bring attention to existing problems, potential improvements, and try to get the devs on board with it.  You agree that this would be an improvement, unlike the more vocal posts in this thread.

 

You understand what this forum is for.  There's no need to try to defend things that the game currently does wrong.  This is a place for trying to help make the game better for everyone.  There's certainly no reason to attack the people trying to help improve it.  I hope most of the people who posted here can take a lesson from your comment on how to have a real feedback discussion.  Thank you.

This is a feedback forum yes, and everyone who disagrees with you is also voicing their feedback. Defending what the game currently does is equally important feedback as requesting a change. Clearly many people like the current system, that doesn't make them necessarily correct but it is certainly valid feedback. 

[Callback]

8 minutes ago, Drasiel said:

This is a feedback forum yes, and everyone who disagrees with you is also voicing their feedback. Defending what the game currently does is equally important feedback as requesting a change. Clearly many people like the current system, that doesn't make them necessarily correct but it is certainly valid feedback. 

You're not supposed to defend it, you're supposed to discuss any merits the current system has, so we can reach an understanding of what the community wants.

 

What we have instead are a bunch of apologists and trolls oscillating between "It's fine" and outright attacks against me for daring to question the status quo.

 

So far the one actual thing I hear is "I like that I am rewarded for my time and dedication."  Great.  My proposal retains that by suggesting that the system continue providing rewards for milestones, just changing the type of reward from progression-based exclusives to valuable goodies you normally can't get easily or for free.  And nobody has argued why that would be in any way inferior in satisfying that same function.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Callback

[BeefSauce]

Because the never ending goalpost is a hook and will be utilized until we stop chasing the bait. 

In other words, it makes the company money. Is it good for us? Not sure that really matters as long as DE's numbers show them what they want

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by BeefSauce

[Faulcun]

4 hours ago, The_Doc said:

No, you made the claim that he'd be able to catch up without knowing for sure if that was possible.

It's been live for a year yeah, that means nothing to new players.
The beta claim... well, that's a whole different discussion.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong, the answer is not "This is the way it is, suck it up": this is a feedback forum, and this is feedback.
OP has presented several arguments, some have been addressed, others have been ignored, but still: the dogmatic approach is useless in a feedback forum.

No, in the current system, the opportunity arises for him to catch up when development stops, or that system is no longer being updated with items attached with MR.

The OP's argument is "I want what everybody else has, when they have it. I dont mind putting in the time to get it, but I want everybody else to stop getting rewards tied with progression so I can catch up."

This is a feedback forum, like you said, and im providing feedback to his feedback. We already get a sigil every 100 days which i couldnt care less about, I dont need or want boosters which we already get with the sigils, and I dont care about spiffy cosmetics.

I DO want items that I can make use of in game... like a new weapon, frame, or mod. If I make it to the 1000th day, I want something good for it. What does NOT make sense is to stop that because some guy lost interest in the game for 300 days and wants a limit so he can "catch up". The truth is, he had the same opportunity as everybody else right from the beginning. I have people on my friends list that have not logged in in over 1000 days. I do not feel bad for them either.

For those who just started playing, then they are just beginning their journey. As long as the game stays online after development ends, then they can "catch up" for however long that is. It is also logical to expect there to be more content than necessary to reach MR30. Even if they put a limit on the rewards at 1000 days or whatever else... theres no guarantee the game will stay online for that long to make up the difference. So whats a reasonable cap when we cant tell the future anyways? The entire premise behind his feedback to change the system is purely based on his own failure.  Unfortunately this game's lifespan is directly tied to money and income. When the money stops, so does development. So yeah, suck it up, buttercup. You messed up. Only thing you can do is make the best of it while the game lasts.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Faulcun