In A Time of Giving, the Greed Shows Stronger

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

2 hours ago, Ciaus said:

There's a difference between grinding AND WORKING A PART TIME JOB FOR A WEEK to get a SINGLE ITEM. If you can't understand this you are lost in a world without scale. One of the biggest selling points of this game is the FTP model. I can, should I choose and feel comfortable, drop cash or plat traded out for comfort, faster progression or cosmetics (as I have done and have brought friends into the game, who have also done so) WITHOUT feeling like it's a necessity to progress. By putting a soft-block on the ability to realistically get this, they are contravening a huge part of the model that sells the game. And it's also a BLATANT LIE on their part given they specifically mentioned reducing unreasonable grind as a goal AND addressed the same issue with sibear saying it was unlikely to be repeated. 

Now a weapon with an entirely new mechanic is locked behind something that makes sibear look tame. 

 

 

This may come as a huge shock to you but most of the items in game, EVEN VAUBAN PRIME, can be reasonably obtained without extremely optimised grinding. Just playing, and then taking out 1 or 2 afternoons to make the difference, is sufficient for almost everything prior. Because it's FUN to be able to PLAY THE GAME instead of grave-robbing simulator 2016. And I often drop plat to make the difference on primes, but it's naturally acquirable by the same gameplay I was already doing, or requires an amount of farming I can set aside and still enjoy by the end of it. 

Running the exact same, extremely tedious and unrewarding mission type, for 8-16 hours of solid gameplay is awful. Your idea of "should" is BS. It's not how a fairly large portion of the playerbase play, because some don't find it fun at all. And when it feels entirely forced to a weekly job degree for ONE REQUIREMENT ON THE RESEARCH OF ONE ITEM then people like me stop playing because that entire approach to the game becomes frustrating. 

 

There were multiple mission types in the old void that were completable with a variety of frame compositions and they were heavily rewarding even if you didn't get the item you wanted. 

How is that baffeling at all? 
There's a HUGE difference between grind rot C survival, for which I can take a fairly large portion of my arsenal to 40 minutes, and will walk away with at least 10-20 plat in rewards, at worst, and "get a group with this exact composition and desecrate infested for 8 hours solid for one resource requirement and literally nothing else of value." 

Also I could solo T3 and T4 keys and still get what I wanted. I am a primarily solo player, you know, have reasonable chance at progress playing the game a way I enjoy. 
GLHF getting 5K Mutagen solo. 

 

Care to point out flaws of my poor math? I took the post you linked, which gave an absurdly good best case scenario, and applied the exact modifications my clan situation presents (unless you suggest scrapping my clan entirely for one research in which case [redacted]), as well as allowed for the extra time of trying to get this setup, again, without a dedicated clan of people who can help at any time, and gave that as a lower bound for the time. 

Then accounted roughly for people being idiots and/or having lives interrupting this process, as well as my own unstable internet. 
There was minimal math, just assumptions and conditions, any of which you are welcome to challenge and be wrong on :)

And for that last part see point 2 and 3. 

 

You are simultaneously being terribly pedantic in what you pick at, and vague in your actual rebuttals. That's not ability, that's a blatant attempt at defending an indefensible situation. 
You are neither cognisant of why a lot of people actually play this game (the way you equate a hyper-specific grind setup to an entire class of old void mission types and the ways you can enjoy doing that shows) nor realistic issues with actually managing a clan or setting up such farming. Until you understand these things don't try undermine legitimate criticism of a terrible choice on DE's part. 

1) The interesting part about this counter point is that you're not accounting for people who play much less than you.  if you consider doing this a "part time job" it must be a nightmare for people who play less.  And that same concept can be applied to any kind of grind in this game. Also the term "unreasonable" is a subjective point to which you can't say "they lied" and this is pretty much along the lines of the hyperbolic stuff I was referring to earlier.  You can't make statements like "unreasonable grind" or anything that goes along the lines of feeling.  because I could just as easily state that I feel that valkyr prime is "needs" to be bought because in this scenario I feel like the new relic system is unreasonably grindy.  And to try and tell me no it's not whilst still trying to stay true to your original claim "of unreasonable grind" is just double standard bull.

2) Again you feel vaubon prime is reasonable to get.  Others might not.  But regardless this wasn't one of the grinds that came to mind.  My point here was that it simply isn't the first major grind that warframe players have been put through.  Nothing more nothing less.  And you can call BS all you want.  it still doesn't change a thing.  If someone wants something that bad they should be taking the best approach to it.  and I feel if you aren't then you are partially to blame.  That would be like calling the relic system rubbish because you grinded long enough to only get a single relic and made it rad only to not get what you want stating that the relic system is bad.

3) You know people keep stating this as some sort of defense when it isn't one.  were there other keys to do?  yes.  were you always running defense/survival? no.  Still doesn't change the fact that a majority of the prime pieces dropped in later rotation for both endless missions.  Which is exactly why a video was made called "prime access" being a montage of how stupidly insane that system was.  At the end of it all most of the time you were spending obscene amounts of times doing the same mission on the same tile set usually with the optimal setup of frames unless you happen to have your own group of friends and didn't need to resort to LFG.  Which is why I said it's baffeling.  Because in this situation you're running the same mission with the same tile set and the same setup.  Which factually is what the void "experience" was prior to the relic system a majority of the time.

4) Your math is absurd because you are working with abstract references and open ended scenarios in which I don't actually get to see or varify.  the thread I linked had more numbers then you did and was more reasonable to assume because it wasn't hyper inflated with these ficticious situations you are giving me.  And for the record I actually have managed to get a farming group together more than once.  it doesn't take me nearly as long as you claim it to take.

 

I really don't need to get lessons on debating from someone who constantly uses caps lock to stress something that doesn't need stressing.  Someone who continues to talk down to me and jab at me.  The fact that you believe this situation isn't defendable really speaks to your maturity level and how not open minded you might be.  It would be like trying to say you can't defend hitlers actions.  Well.  actually you can.  That doesn't mean you support the actions.  And the fact that you continue to mash the 2 things together kind of just proves my point that you don't really know what you're talking about.  You're just angry about the situation you happen to be stuck in and rather than be productive you take to the forums screaming at DE and anyone who doesn't 100% agree with you.  You are not legitimately critizing anything.  You are attacking and using conformation bias.  I'm done arguing though as this isn't a fruitful endevor for either of us.  So i'll close with this.  I am not supporting DE's choice here.  I find the idea that they believe a majority of people in clans are active on a consistent basis.

However.  That doesn't mean I think the idea of this is wrong.  and I can see where DE is coming from.  Have a happy holiday.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

3 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

Even so, any Rank 10 mod will sell.

You will just end up with 400 extra plat instead of 650p. Blood Rush in particular still sells at max rank very nicely for 150-170p.  Hell you can buy the Primed mod at rank0, rank it, then sell it if you have the Credits to burn.

It doesn't really matter, not farming Hema is better than farming it when you're part of an inactive clan.

It's applicable to all players, it's just more or less rewarding depending on their situation. In trying to make Clan research an actual thing (3 years too late btw) they've just made a mandatory plat weapon for many players.

what counts as a rank 10 mod.  like corrupted mods? and is blood rush even farmable?

[LabMan95]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

what counts as a rank 10 mod.  like corrupted mods? and is blood rush even farmable?

Maxed redirection and vitality reliable sell for between 140 & 175 platinum. And those mods aren't hard to find: I found at least 100 of each in my 500 hours of playing this game, not counting all the ones I sold because I needed credits or endo. 

 

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

I really don't need to get lessons on debating from someone who constantly uses caps lock to stress something that doesn't need stressing.  Someone who continues to talk down to me and jab at me.  The fact that you believe this situation isn't defendable really speaks to your maturity level and how not open minded you might be.

Also, saying someone is jabbing at you while continually prodding them isn't exactly respectful or mature of you either (God forbid what you say to me since I have a different opinion)

[Dergas]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

I really don't need to get lessons on debating from someone who constantly uses caps lock to stress something that doesn't need stressing.  Someone who continues to talk down to me and jab at me.  The fact that you believe this situation isn't defendable really speaks to your maturity level and how not open minded you might be.  It would be like trying to say you can't defend hitlers actions.  Well.  actually you can.  That doesn't mean you support the actions.  And the fact that you continue to mash the 2 things together kind of just proves my point that you don't really know what you're talking about.  You're just angry about the situation you happen to be stuck in and rather than be productive you take to the forums screaming at DE and anyone who doesn't 100% agree with you.  You are not legitimately critizing anything.  You are attacking and using conformation bias.

6 hours ago, (Xbox One)Knight Raime said:

1) It still speaks to entitlement. It's quite frankly absurd to believe you shouldn't have to go out and grind to get something new every now and then.

4) even if your poor attempt at math

 If you are incapable of defending let alone seeing both sides of a debate

Spoiler

People shouldn't throw rocks if they live in glass houses

Edited December 25, 2016 by Dergas

[KuramaKitsune]

On 12/23/2016 at 9:46 AM, Daggerpaw1 said:

Titania requires hours of insufferable plant scan farming to obtain

 

dude, i was done farming titania in like one sitting...

grab helios and equip a couple mods like loot detector ...

[Mortarion]

Ehhh, so you guys complaining, you do realize this is all meant to be end game content right? I've been with the game since CB, and really 90% of the stuff is easily obtained. Aside from the annoying time walls, for most new players, obtaining new gear/Warframes, is not particularly difficult. Warframe has been out for 3 years now, and it's finally getting substantial endgame conent, ie Kuva, Focus, Operator, Sorties and etc. This stuff is meant to be hard to get, otherwise if you breeze through it in an hour, what are you going to do afterwards? Besides, there are games with much, much worse grinds/farms for endgame content. In that light, it's kinda nice for them to give you a way to skip the line, if you're busy. The game is also Free to Play. No one is forcing you to play, but they do need to make money, otherwise the game goes down. Who wants that?

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

1 hour ago, LabMan95 said:

Maxed redirection and vitality reliable sell for between 140 & 175 platinum. And those mods aren't hard to find: I found at least 100 of each in my 500 hours of playing this game, not counting all the ones I sold because I needed credits or endo. 

 

Also, saying someone is jabbing at you while continually prodding them isn't exactly respectful or mature of you either (God forbid what you say to me since I have a different opinion)

ah alright thanks for the clarification.

[MopUpCrewman]

The funniest part is how Devs said that the Mutagen Samples cost isn't that much of a big deal. Why? Because each member would need to contribute 500 Mutagen Samples from the clan to complete the research. And 500 is still a good lot for most players. So let's look at what DE are saying with this:

They think every clan is completely full. Not True

They think every member of said clan is active. Not True

They think every single player of the clan is willing and able to acquire said 500 Mutagen Samples to contribute. Once again, Not True.

If they could just admit they're trying to get at our wallets instead of lying to the community in such silly ways recently then maybe more people could show some understanding since DE are a business. But no one likes being lied at, especially when one is this bad at it and treat their players as if they're just brainless consumers. The game is rated M for Mature. There are kids and teenagers, sure, but there are also adults with common sense who can't be tricked so easily.

[Guest]

It is what it is, i just take comfort in playing the frames and weps that i enjoy playing gave up long ago trying to acquire something threw grind eh if i want something ill just trade till i get enough plat or just don't get it no big deal.

Currently rank 21 and 1/2 not that it matters just saying you can aquire stuff otherways ,

 

[UncaIroh]

Ok, basically if you want to earn 5k (for a shadow clan) solo - your party mates are not clan mates, you'll need at least 20 hours of solid farming with nekros and pilfering hydroid on a low-mid level mission if you're starting from zero.You'll average 80-100 mutagen samples in ODD/ODS every 20 minutes.

That's insane for a single weapon.

A full shadow clan can get that in 2 hours with the same set up (20/10 clanmates = 2)

Which makes me a little torn, it's a number that is totally unfriendly to your clan the fewer you are. But at the same time the more full clans totally will not have a huge problem farming for this. Any less will make the entire exercise trivial.

Perhaps they should've computed from the average actual populations? 60%? 70%?

Edited December 25, 2016 by TonyWong

[Kagisnad]

ya DE needs to chill on the grind tho.

[Pro3Display]

3 hours ago, Mortarion said:

Ehhh, so you guys complaining, you do realize this is all meant to be end game content right? I've been with the game since CB, and really 90% of the stuff is easily obtained. Aside from the annoying time walls, for most new players, obtaining new gear/Warframes, is not particularly difficult. Warframe has been out for 3 years now, and it's finally getting substantial endgame conent, ie Kuva, Focus, Operator, Sorties and etc. This stuff is meant to be hard to get, otherwise if you breeze through it in an hour, what are you going to do afterwards? Besides, there are games with much, much worse grinds/farms for endgame content. In that light, it's kinda nice for them to give you a way to skip the line, if you're busy. The game is also Free to Play. No one is forcing you to play, but they do need to make money, otherwise the game goes down. Who wants that?

care to elaborate what part of nidus or mutagen sample farm is endgame?

or what endgame you are talking about here because no endgame that i know is involved here

(okay, apart maybe from 2k kuva on nidus, though i wouldn't say that kuva is either endgame or needed as a requirement there)

Edited December 25, 2016 by Pro3Display

[(XBOX)OneOmniverse]

Well what goes around comes around . I'm sure de is not the first company to have bad things happen as a result of greed. Just have to wait and see how bad it gets .smh

[White_Matter]

Yeah, they disguised it well with the festival thing.

[Ryunokage]

On 24/12/2016 at 2:09 PM, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

I have virtigo and cannot play archwing at all without gettin violently sick. So riven and sorties are locked to me permanently. Im mr19 and probably just goin to quit at this point. Agree with op...this game is sinking

That isn't vertigo. Vertigo has nothing to do with anything you might see on a computer screen, it has to do with defects in your semi-circular canals.

What you're describing is merely disorientation, which is something you can sort out with exposure.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

On 12/24/2016 at 1:00 AM, Suncake said:

 

  Hide contents

12 hours ago, Ryunokage said:

That isn't vertigo. Vertigo has nothing to do with anything you might see on a computer screen, it has to do with defects in your semi-circular canals.

What you're describing is merely disorientation, which is something you can sort out with exposure.

 

ive been diagnosed with virtigo. 

[Kobold101]

Can we all just agree to not say 'you don't NEED X weapon'? It's an asinine non-argument that people use to defend S#&$ty systems. No one should use it, ever. Period.

[UrielColtan]

On 12/23/2016 at 11:57 AM, TheScytale said:

Now sorry for the language, but this is plain stupid. If people want to pay thousands of plat for a mod whose weapon is already strong enough, let them do it. This is the whole point of free market, and it has always been like this. If you're upset about free market, Riven mods aren't as much a problem as exclusive items and Primed Chamber specifically, none of which you've mentionned. If you're upset about Riven mods, this isn't one of their major flaws, simply because the problem is created by the community and not by DE.

 

And... Titania wasn't hard to get. The only annoying part was Vestan Moss, which would take 3 missions of your lifetime. 

Free market, free to get price gouged, free to screw up the gameplay and actual quality control of weapons, and potentially warframes.

Nah, random stat mods are trash and DE reintroduced these inventory hogging RNG mods (Unless you purchase more slots, cha-ching!) deliberately to incentivize such gouging, subsequently increasing plat purchases. I'd also rather the game not become a Chinese slot machine MMO, thanks, so I will personally call this bad because it is. Doing so does not stop you from still trying to scam suckers, how free is a market if we shout down the the cos of a product? Fault of the audience you say, more like of a small percentage that DE count's on to capitulate to this out of sheer probability of human nature, because that's all thats needed to fill coffers, doesn't matter if they threaten a whole system to accomplish it either.

Either way, random stat mods still screw up the parity in progression, balance, and threaten damage mods being replaced with this trash in Damage 3.0. Primed chamber is only as expensive as it is is due to artificial rarity, not its honestly underwhelming boost(For snipers of all weapons, generally the least liked of the weapons due to how slow they are for use in a horde mode game), which is fixed by the way, not RNG, and doesn't threaten the entire game. Artificial rarity is basically the crux of RNG stat lotto mods, especially when you limit the amount that can be held without purchasing money.

Edited December 26, 2016 by UrielColtan

[Liminal]

On 12/23/2016 at 3:28 PM, sushidubya said:

If you look at Nidus I just have to wonder how many hundreds/thousands of man hours went into creating him.  DE needs to pay their staff and keep the lights on.

And I'd gladly pay for content that's fair to acquire regularly. And cosmetics. And trading.
I've got ~2500 plat that I'll use on stuff I'm cool with, but not on this. Otherwise I'd be encouraging them to make more Knuxes and Hemas.

[UrielColtan]

On 12/23/2016 at 0:28 PM, sushidubya said:

Well...  while what I'm about to say here won't change the situation and I get you...  there are other ways in this game to get what you want.  Like you could always unlock some rivens and re-roll them for sale, etc.  (heck if they're good I'll buy them from you.)   If you don't want to do that you could rank up some R10 mods by farming some endo and sell those, etc.  Then use the plat to buy the pack from the market, etc.

This is a beautiful thing about Warframe, there are ways around things if you're creative.  

If you look at Nidus I just have to wonder how many hundreds/thousands of man hours went into creating him.  DE needs to pay their staff and keep the lights on.

They had been doing fine financially already, why do you think that is no longer the case? They need money yet are able to host Tennobaum? Many man hours compared to what?  You mean the  8 frames simultaneously released on day one of the game's launch, which were much easier to acquire? Nidus, a warframe actually conceived from fan concepts and looking like a melted Chroma without the pelt, required so many man hours that DE is risking the lights being shut off? Where are your figures? 

Edited December 26, 2016 by UrielColtan

[AtroSpiker]

On 12/23/2016 at 0:46 PM, Daggerpaw1 said:

It seems like DE is prying ever more at our wallets with every new piece of content.

The last two frames released in the game are hidden behind an insatiable hours-long grind (Titania, Nidus), making it look like a better decision to simply buy the frames.

Mind you that other frames are either gotten from farming bosses or awarded effectively from their respective not-too-grindy quests, not requiring any outside grinding to obtain.

 

However,

 

Titania requires hours of insufferable plant scan farming to obtain

and

Nidus requires hours of farming the same mission over and over after you've already completed his quest, in order to have one chance every 4 rotations to obtain one part blueprint for the Warframe.

Let's, of course, not forget Vauban Prime requiring 7,000 (initially 14,000) oxium and 20 nitain extract to craft.

Let's also not disregard Dev's reluctance to break down any of the RNG walls blocking players from obtaining good or even half decent Riven Mods, or even getting them for the weapons that they want, causing good rivens to cost anywhere from a few hundred to over 3,000 platinum.

and all of this is because of an arbitrary grind.

If Devs can't release content that is actually worth us paying $10-20 for, or in the case of rivens, $200 for, then they will choose to hide new content behind insufferable RNG walls, and charge us to bypass the arbitrary grind instead.

A new Warframe isn't worth $15 in a game about collecting them, considering all of the platinum costs associated with primes and upgrading, which are fine.

A new weapon isn't worth $15 either.

So, to make us choose the platinum option, Devs have chosen to hide one of the newest weapons behind an absurd wall of 150,000 mutagen samples for (my clan's) Dojo research.

 

and most importantly,

 

60% damage, crit damage, and crit chance for your Soma Prime is worth nowhere near 3,000 or even 2,000 platinum. So why are people asking that much for it? Because it's near impossible to get those stats, and abysmally rare (even more so now) for you to even get a Riven mod for the Soma in the first place. What did devs do about his problem? Why, of course, make it worse. By adding shotguns and secondaries into the Riven pool, now your meta primary mods are even rarer.

Grind is necessary in MMO's, and paying to bypass the grind is nothing new.

But when the grind is the only thing that makes an item worth what you pay for it, and this starts to become a theme with new content and updates, then the greed starts to show on Dev hands.

It's up to us not to be consumer retards and show them that we disagree with this direction.

And even if this isn't because of greed, just a new design approach that's so penny-pinching that it might as well be, then we still need to make our voices heard.

I'm mostly just upset about the 500,000 mutagen samples required.

Like what on earth were they thinking?

[Dergas]

On 12/25/2016 at 0:15 AM, Mortarion said:

Ehhh, so you guys complaining, you do realize this is all meant to be end game content right? ... 

In that light, it's kinda nice for them to give you a way to skip the line, if you're busy. The game is also Free to Play.

Point 1: A weapon that is more in-line with being mastery fodder than see actual use for fighting powerful mosters does not constitute end-game content.

Point 2a: Yes, as all Free-to-Play Games do. That's not called being nice though. That's just giving the game a way to make money. All Free-to-play games have something similar. Please do not think of it as being "nice".

Point 2b: How many weapons/frames behind outrageous resource walls does it take for a free-to-play game to become pay-to-win then?

[Sigmas71]

3 hours ago, Dergas said:

Point 2b: How many weapons/frames behind outrageous resource walls does it take for a free-to-play game to become pay-to-win then?

I believe this is what DE are currently debating and testing. The whole community needs to make its stance clear, as some of us have from the beginning.

How much pay-walled content? NONE. ZERO. We do not appreciate them compromising the quality of our gameplay for the sake of monetization. We have called them out on it since the beginning, and will continue to do so (now withholding plat purchases) until we leave the game for good like our friends have. 

 

[Ryunokage]

12 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

ive been diagnosed with virtigo. 

You can't be "diagnosed" with vertigo. Its a symptom, not a condition in and of itself. What you were likely diagnosed with is some sort of cochlea/semicircular/CN-IV dysfunction.

Regardless, what you're experiencing has nothing to do with vertigo, not unless you're using an oculous rift or some other VR set up with warframe that requires you to turn your head as you play the game.

[RistN]

10 hours ago, AtroSpiker said:

I'm mostly just upset about the 500,000 mutagen samples required.

Like what on earth were they thinking?

Either they were thinking of earnings or they don't know how their game works.