HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Aren't Hema and Ignis wraith in research rewards for those Clans which work properly?

Edit: Forgot to congrats to those Clans, Moons especially, which got both researches, for their perfect Clan management.

Edited March 15, 2017 by (PS4)Onder6099

[Ditto132]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

What are you talking about?

I have no dog in this fight, but busting your butt to maintain a large, VIABLE clan takes work and I recommend some additional incentives is all.

The recent and coming changes are starting to institute performance standards just like any real-world business, and running a bigger business takes more effort.

If JUST the prestige of being able to do so is enough reward, so be it.  But I doubt it.  Go check and see how many clans have downsized JUST from the Hema.

The real-world benefits of Big Business do not apply to the Clan Model in Warframe, so if DE actually sees value in them, they need special incentives.

Or they will largely disappear.  Which may be what DE wants anyway.

Agree that larger Clan should have some form of advantages, but not exclusive locked contents.
DE doesn't seem to put in more effort in regard to Clan tier and research, in my opinion.

This is how I would change the Clan tier and research, taking a rare resource as an rough example(in this case, Synthula):

The idea is that since there are more people in the Clan, thus more "helping hands", it would require less time to get the research done.
And I also propose that the cost be changed such that larger Clan would be given some little discount, sort of like buying items in bulk/big pack.

This way, solo Clan would still be able to get the research done, even though tougher compared to larger Clan. Not unreasonable.
Larger Clan would enjoy some benefits of slightly reduced cost, faster research time and some buffer to be able to have some inactive members.
It would encourage Clan to become larger, instead of downsizing just for the sake of exploiting the low cost of Ghost Clan.

Take note that the base/reference Clan would actually be Storm Clan in this case. Values are not perfectly tweaked, mainly for conveying my idea.
What do you guys think?

[redeyedtreefrog]

In my opinion, the biggest issue with farming the mutagen samples was that it was, specifically, in derelicts. ONLY derelicts. Why is this a problem? it's still using the same key system that void used to use, meaning there's no matchmaking for it. You either solo the mission, which can become really boring really quickly, as well as reducing enemy spawns in many missions, or you can look for a group in the recruiting channel. Thing about the recruiting channel is, is it's filled with people who are farming mutagens(which is good), but all of the people are looking for a nekros+hydroid+speedva+leech group(which, if you don't have an augmented nekros, an augmented hydroid, or a speedva build, or don't enjoy playing any of those, is very, very bad news). There is no common middle ground for people who WANT to farm mutagen to help their clan, but DON'T want to spend the entire time in ODD. Sure, a bring-whatever survival with a nekros and 3 randoms won't net you mutagen nearly as quickly, but would be a lot more fun for me. Unfortunately, groups like that were so hard to find that I couldn't bear to spend the time getting a group together.

Furthermore, DE's statement about "most players already having 500 mutagen samples" is, in all likelihood, true. Unfortunately, that's probably counting a TON of inactive players and veterans, the people who were farming prime parts furiously back in the old void days, where the average run could go on as long as 60 waves. Sure, THEY'VE got 500 mutagen samples. But me, I never did much farming using the old void system, so I didn't have those mutagen samples. 

In the end, I don't think it has everything to do with the QUANTITY they're demanding. The issue is with how it is OBTAINED. 

[Silvus-Sol]

I fully agree with the OP and all it's edits. Wish I could give a <3 more than once.

Edited March 15, 2017 by Silvus-Sol

[ChuckMaverick]

48 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Take note that the base/reference Clan would actually be Storm Clan in this case. Values are not perfectly tweaked, mainly for conveying my idea.
What do you guys think?

I think the cost scaling between tiers looks reasonable, but a one day research time for Moon clans is too short.

Moon clans being three days with an increase of 12-24 hours per tier below that would be more appropriate, but in general I don't like the idea of scaling research time.

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I think the cost scaling between tiers looks reasonable, but a one day research time for Moon clans is too short.

Moon clans being three days with an increase of 12-24 hours per tier below that would be more appropriate, but in general I don't like the idea of scaling research time.

Thanks for the feedback.

Initially, I started by setting Moon clan with 3 days duration but after factoring that Moon clan might not be able to start the research as early as lower tier, it would balance out.
And if the Moon clan was very active, that every members contributed, it get the bonus benefit of completing earlier.
Another reason that I shorten the duration was due to the larger amount of resource required to research the same thing as compared to lower tier.

The duration reduction was sort of a secondary bonus. The primary part I was proposing was the slight "discounted" resource cost for larger clan, so that it encourage up-sizing clan instead of down-sizing to exploit the benefit of being a Ghost clan. Preventing unhealthy behaviours such as kicking inactive/non-contributing members and allowing some buffer to keep less active members/friends while maintaining the clan tier. I mean people up-sized clan for some reasons, right.

As for the base research duration, it would depend on how long DE wants to keep the research content time-gated.
Personally, I am ok with Ghost tier been 6-8 days and Moon tier been 3 days, since I am not a person who want thing on Day One.
Another idea is to scale the duration based on the percentage of members contributing to the research, lowering duration as more members contributed.
This rewards the more active clan.

To be honest, it is also not as easy to balance time-gate related contents.

[DoomFruit]

Just a reminder to the devs before the patch hits - even though it's gotten quiet around here, we've not forgotten the hema's ruinous costs.

[Ditto132]

Apparently, Hema related posts/threads containing suggestions and feedbacks are not as important compared to those weapon buffs/nerfs. Especially, since I thought that DE is focusing on Clan related updates and contents(clan participation, kingpins, Ignis Wraith so on), so I thought that addressing this Hema issue would be very relevant and also for future research. Guess, I was wrong.

Just feel that so much time is wasted on Warframe. If only I could get my refund for my 3,000+ hours into $30,000 when I could work for 3,000+ hours for $10 per hour...
Recently watch a ~1.5 hours movie, I get more out of it than a ~1.5 hours grind with meh rewards.

[Volinus7]

34 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Apparently, Hema related posts/threads containing suggestions and feedbacks are not as important compared to those weapon buffs/nerfs. Especially, since I thought that DE is focusing on Clan related updates and contents(clan participation, kingpins, Ignis Wraith so on), so I thought that addressing this Hema issue would be very relevant and also for future research. Guess, I was wrong.

Just feel that so much time is wasted on Warframe. If only I could get my refund for my 3,000+ hours into $30,000 when I could work for 3,000+ hours for $10 per hour...
Recently watch a ~1.5 hours movie, I get more out of it than a ~1.5 hours grind with meh rewards.

To me Warframe is the most successful and the best Skinner's box of all MMOs.

But it fails miserably as a game though.

[wanderere]

200 mutagen samples from a session of farming the derelict with a full proper team and boosters... seriously? ill just skip the hema.

back to just checking in to warframe when something gets added I guess..

godamn it warframe such a great game, but collecting guns and warframes isn't enough..

[Ditto132]

4 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

To me Warframe is the most successful and the best Skinner's box of all MMOs.

But it fails miserably as a game though.

Agree. Warframe is pretty successful financially but game-wise lacking quite a lot especially after some time.

Most of the updates and contents usually are not thoroughly though through and executed, making them feel like band-aids.
I just feel that DE focused on the wrong things and left them incomplete to certain degree, things like Focus, Arch-Wing, disposition after introducing Riven so on.

At this rate, DE won't have sufficient money and manpower to maintain the game and make it better.

[Justice_Ember]

On 15/3/2017 at 4:34 PM, Ditto132 said:

This is how I would change the Clan tier and research, taking a rare resource as an rough example(in this case, Synthula):

I actually think this could work, but instead 100% to 70% in terms of cost I'd do 100% to 80% or even 85%, and for duration yes, more hands should make it faster but a whole day between clan tiers sounds excesive, maybe start at base 3 and lower 6 hours for each tier? making it 2 daysfor moon. 

I think this goes in the right track tho.

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

3 hours ago, wanderere said:

200 mutagen samples from a session of farming the derelict with a full proper team and boosters... seriously? ill just skip the hema.

back to just checking in to warframe when something gets added I guess..

godamn it warframe such a great game, but collecting guns and warframes isn't enough..

Stop complaining. I'm in a shadow clan with only 6 people that actually donated. We got a group of 4 in Orokin Derelict Survival, stayed an hour, got 250 samples, repeat. Took less than 2 days. 

Stop being lazy and put in the effort. If not, farm the plat and buy it yourself.

[Flirk2]

7 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

I'm in a shadow clan with only 6 people that actually donated.

So, you didn't bother to read anything in the thread.

8 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

We got a group of 4 in Orokin Derelict Survival, stayed an hour, got 250 samples, repeat. Took less than 2 days.

That's exactly the problem. But, I guess, if multiplying the time needed to get resources for one research 100 times is not a problem to you, we all should just

9 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

Stop being lazy

Apparently, playing a video game is hard work. You need to ''put in the effort'' while playing a video game.

But not only that, you need to put in more and more effort with every new development in the game.

Because consistent experience is not something we should expect from a game...

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

1 minute ago, Flirk2 said:

So, you didn't bother to read anything in the thread.

That's exactly the problem. But, I guess, if multiplying the time needed to get resources for one research 100 times is not a problem to you, we all should just

Apparently, playing a video game is hard work. You need to ''put in the effort'' while playing a video game.

But not only that, you need to put in more and more effort with every new development in the game.

Because consistent experience is not something we should expect from a game...

It isn't hard work. 

What are you even talking about? It's set so high for a reason. You can do it.

You aren't entitled for them to lower it for you because you won't put in the effort for it.

It's a free game. Let them be. I'd understand if you payed for the game, then it should be low, but you payed nothing for it. It's all free. You just gotta take the initiative. 

[wanderere]

11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

Stop complaining. I'm in a shadow clan with only 6 people that actually donated. We got a group of 4 in Orokin Derelict Survival, stayed an hour, got 250 samples, repeat. Took less than 2 days. 

Stop being lazy and put in the effort. If not, farm the plat and buy it yourself.

that's not the point.... its not fun gameplay farming for resources, especially that much.

apart from that it drives players away. so many friends quit playing from excess farmville like this hema business and not enough FUN/CHALLENGING gameplay

nothing wrong with some criticism, hell I wasn't even rude!

[Flirk2]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

You aren't entitled for them to lower it for you because you won't put in the effort for it.

3 years of consistent research prices players were entitled to them.

But now suddenly they are not.

Then the recent event that marked quite a lot of people as ''hardcore registered losers''

It's a free game. For how long?

And why it being free is somehow making the exponential grind inflation OK?

Edited March 23, 2017 by Flirk2

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

1 minute ago, Flirk2 said:

3 years of consistent research prices players were entitled to them.

But now suddenly they are not.

Then the recent event that marked quite a lot of people as ''hardcore registered losers''

It's a free game. For how long?

And why it being free is somehow making the exponential grind inflation OK?

It's not that much of a grind. People just continue to over-exaggerate things. 

[Flirk2]

Just now, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

It's not that much of a grind. People just continue to over-exaggerate things. 

sure, 77 times is not that much.

Really. Not much at all...

I wonder, if your tax got 77 times bigger, would you say ''it's not that much of a grind'' as well?

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

Just now, Flirk2 said:

sure, 77 times is not that much.

Really. Not much at all...

I wonder, if your tax got 77 times bigger, would you say ''it's not that much of a grind'' as well?

Tax? That is a terrible example. It doesn't apply to the situation. 

77 times? Again, it was less than 20. Exaggeration. You're doing that.

[Flirk2]

Just now, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

Tax? That is a terrible example. It doesn't apply to the situation. 

77 times? Again, it was less than 20. Exaggeration. You're doing that.

Ok. You ignored the thread and that post with charts...

Let me put it this way:

Synapse:

Bio Lab Research Requirements
5,000	65	800	3,000	1,200	Time: 72 hrs
					Prereq: Embolist

 

 

 

Hema:

Bio Lab Research Requirements
5,000	5,000	10,000	45,000	50	Time: 72 hrs
					Prereq: Torid

 

 

 

5000/65 = 76.923

 

77 times is an exaggeration? No, rounding up.

[Buff00n]

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Ginger Bruhv said:

Tax? That is a terrible example. It doesn't apply to the situation. 

77 times? Again, it was less than 20. Exaggeration. You're doing that.

Hello new people just joining us in this thread!  

Here's what you may have missed:

• (2 pages of insight into how this changed four years of policy on what purpose a clan can serve and still have access to all the game's content)
• (86 pages of "GIT GUD" "NO U")
• Pie: 

 

[MagPrime]

17 minutes ago, Buff00n said:

Hello new people just joining us in this thread!  

Here's what you may have missed:

• (2 pages of insight into how this changed four years of policy on what purpose a clan can serve and still have access to all the game's content)
• (86 pages of "GIT GUD" "NO U")
• Pie: 

 

Holy Pacman!

 

[Buff00n]

7 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Holy Pacman!

 

The original post has some more charts resembling Pac-Man to various degrees:

 

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, zzzNitro said:

I actually think this could work, but instead 100% to 70% in terms of cost I'd do 100% to 80% or even 85%, and for duration yes, more hands should make it faster but a whole day between clan tiers sounds excesive, maybe start at base 3 and lower 6 hours for each tier? making it 2 daysfor moon. 

I think this goes in the right track tho.

Thanks. 
I hope DE would see and take this suggestion to make Clan better.

If you are interested more in the details, these are the tier cost discount that I used (in case you didn't know, I did not use a linear function):
Ghost: 0%
Shadow: 10%
Storm: 20%
Mountain: 25%
Moon: 30%

Personally, I feel that 70% should be good. But if I were to change it to 80%, I would start with roughly these values:
Ghost: 0%
Shadow: 8%
Storm: 14%
Mountain: 18%
Moon: 20%

As for the duration, not sure if you seen this post:

6 to 12 hours for each tier and 2 days for Moon clan seem reasonable. One day gap between tier would be quite a large gap, considering the research dependencies and other factors.