HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

28 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

I think the costs are fine, for the simple reason that the Hema is not an essential item.

mastery is as essential as it gets in this game, it's its official progression measurement after all.

i could also turn the very same argument around: if the hema is nothing special why is its cost?

Edited January 6, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir
grammar bad.

[theraot]

Well, now that thanks to my clanmates I will be getting Hema, I guess I join the people that have earned it.

So, as a player that has earned Hema, I want to say that it won't bother me if DE decides to drop the cost price or increse the aviability of Mutagen Samples. In fact, I still want them to do that.

I'm not bothered by sunk cost. I did expend and spend what I did, I don't expect to get any of it back. So I won't cry because a change in the cost.

DE, if you drop the research cost, it won't bother me, I'll NOT be asking for a compensation or retribution of any kind. Sunk cost is a fallacy.

Edited January 6, 2017 by theraot

[Vermitore]

8 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

mastery is as essential as it gets in this game, it's its official progression measurement after all.

i could also turn the very same argument around: if the hema is nothing special why is its cost?

 

It is not essential. Mastery Rank is not essential beyond the point that allows you to use all equipment. It is not even essential in the respect that there are competitive items at lower MRs. Essential would be something that if you do not have it, your access to non-trivial parts of the game is absolutely cut off. Lack of Hema does that how?

It is special, as DE put it. It may not be the best argument that the unique mechanics warrant the price, but it is as good an argument as the contrary. It is an aesthetic factor which is determinant of the major investment requirement and it is somewhat difficult to determine how much that 'special' uniqueness of the Hema is worth. Simply put, there is no reason for it to be so difficult to obtain, as there is no reason for it to be easy to obtain. It is the way it is, and there is no good argument against the status quo, unless you subscribe to the idea of innate entitlement, which I do not subscribe to.

 

14 minutes ago, theraot said:

It is true it is not essential. In fact I could say of most of the content on the game if not all.

I think being a research there is a bit of extra pressure because it is always harder for clan that don't have completed their research projects to recruit members, precisely because...

 

That's normal. It's just competition.

[rudman88]

my clansmate has done it.

of course it is diffuclt

but hopefully DE will not do something like this again.

Is not that impossible, each member jsut need to cough up 500 mutagen sample (moon clan size)

[(PSN)adrian80]

Instead of farming this thing right here and now, how about waiting for other reasons to go to the derelict? Then you'll start piling up mutagen samples without even knowing it.

I'm sure DE will come up with something eventually, and even getting lith relics for new prime items sounds useful. Those drop a lot from ODD.

[VanLyrr]

8 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

 

It is not essential. Mastery Rank is not essential beyond the point that allows you to use all equipment. It is not even essential in the respect that there are competitive items at lower MRs. Essential would be something that if you do not have it, your access to non-trivial parts of the game is absolutely cut off. Lack of Hema does that how?

It is special, as DE put it. It may not be the best argument that the unique mechanics warrant the price, but it is as good an argument as the contrary. It is an aesthetic factor which is determinant of the major investment requirement and it is somewhat difficult to determine how much that 'special' uniqueness of the Hema is worth. Simply put, there is no reason for it to be so difficult to obtain, as there is no reason for it to be easy to obtain. It is the way it is, and there is no good argument against the status quo, unless you subscribe to the idea of innate entitlement, which I do not subscribe to.

What if you just want the weapon and you want to get it by grinding. Does that make you entitled? Spoiler, it doesn't. The grindwall is pretty insane and I'm surprised another viver hasn't been discovered, cause it was the same S#&$ with syndicate standing.

[theraot]

@Vermitore I understand you say this is the given, and we can decide if we consider the weapon worth the cost and whatever or not we want to get it or not. We can agree on that.

Perhaps I'm picking on a deeper issue... since the more clan research there is and the harder it is it increases the gap that new clans need to climb to be able to be competitive. The more is there to do in the dojo, the bigger the incentive to join a clan that has done it... meaning that new clans will have a harder time getting players, and if this continues it will no longer make sense to create clans.

At the end we also decide if the game is worth playing and if we prefer to play something different. So far warframe has been good enough to stay, and I want it to continue being worth playing (otherwise I won't be here in their forums). In that order of ideas I want DE to pay attention to what bother me and other players and to improve the experience. So I complain, I suggest, I try to get their attention.

[Vermitore]

43 minutes ago, VanLyrr said:

What if you just want the weapon and you want to get it by grinding. Does that make you entitled? Spoiler, it doesn't. The grindwall is pretty insane and I'm surprised another viver hasn't been discovered, cause it was the same S#&$ with syndicate standing.

But you want it without grinding so much. DE never precluded you from obtaining the weapon altogether. It has been grinded (ground?) within less than a month of release, which proves it is grindable. I see no issue here. I have contributed my 500 mutagen to my clan and some 1000 neurodes on top of that, so now I wait. That's that. 

37 minutes ago, theraot said:

@Vermitore I understand you say this is the given, and we can decide if we consider the weapon worth the cost and whatever or not we want to get it or not. We can agree on that.

Perhaps I'm picking on a deeper issue... since the more clan research there is and the harder it is it increases the gap that new clans need to climb to be able to be competitive. The more is there to do in the dojo, the bigger the incentive to join a clan that has done it... meaning that new clans will have a harder time getting players, and if this continues it will no longer make sense to create clans.

At the end we also decide if the game is worth playing and if we prefer to play something different. So far warframe has been good enough to stay, and I want it to continue being worth playing (otherwise I won't be here in their forums). In that order of ideas I want DE to pay attention to what bother me and other players and to improve the experience. So I complain, I suggest, I try to get their attention.

I don't think that the small clans are so disadvantaged as to render them obsolete. There is a constant influx of eligible players. New players arrive, players return from breaks, players leave their present clans, etc. Eventually, also, as clans which offer the research reach their capacity, people will be forced to form new clans to gain access to the research. That's just the way it goes. Clans are not these monolithic unchanging things. Hema does little to change that.

Yeah, complaining is fine. My argument was never that you have no right to complain - you do -, I argued that your present complaints are exaggerated, which I think they are. Just as I have no right to silence you, you are also not entitled to have your opinions automatically considered correct. It's just the nature of discourse.

[Grimlar]

I wouldnt object to the mutagen sample cost, if:

1) The drop rate was better. Boosting Eris will do. Some alerts rewarding useful amounts of samples would be handy too.

(The drop rate was originally based on players needing a few at a time, ie 20 for a new weapon etc. Not 500, that is completely disproportionate. How can you tell 500 was a poorly chosen number? Try to figure out what would be a reasonable reward for a mutagen sample alert. Anywhere between 50-200 maybe? Useful towards the 500 target, but completely trivialises the requirements for every other item that requires mutagen samples. On the other hand anything less would be pointless in the context of the 500. If you cant balance supply & demand then its broken.)

2) If DE could show that the average size of every clan type was near 100%, AND that the number of active clan players for each clan size was larger than the number of inactive clan players. (Pick a number to define active, say 10-15 hours play a month.)

(Every other online game I've played that has clans/guilds, has always had more inactive/casual players than active. Perhaps Warframe bucks this trend and actually has better than 50% active players, in which case I will accept the way that clan costs have been calculated.)

3) If DE were to refund samples it would need to be to the players who donated them.

(Refunding them to the clan, assuming that DE dont repeat this mutagen sample mess in future, would simply mean that the clan would never need players to contribute mutagen samples for research ever again, even if the clan hadnt already researched everything.)

4) Its not the first miscalculation DE have ever made and Im sure it wont be the last. Im largely of the, 'fix it and move on' mentality, but, one way or another, DE do need to address the issue. Saying stuff like 'it is what it is,' we will learn for the future,' and 'it wont be changed', is not good enough. We get enough of that from corporate PR and politicians, I expect better from DE.

(500 samples was a poor choice in the first place. Following the data will only get you so far, how you interpret it matters more. The disparity between the Hema and every other mutagen sample requirement is simply too big for the current game mechanics to handle. Admit the mistake and make some effort to deal with it. For better or worse, that is the least that DE should do. ) 

I see 2 main options: 

1) Drop the Hema requirements a bit, to match the actual average activity levels of clans. They should also improve the drop rate for mutagen samples on Eris a little and add an occasional alert to help close the gap from the supply side too.

If DE stick to their guns and refuse to change the Hema requirements then you move to option 2.

2) Increase the cost of the older items, say triple the mutagen sample requirement, to at least be on the same scale as the Hema is currently.  Obviously if DE do this then they also need to multiply players existing stockpiles, multiply the drop rates/amounts and add mutagen sample alerts to cope with the higher demand.

Anyway, lets see what the devstream says later.

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

what i wanna see on the stream today is a statistic of the number of clans who have completed Hema research and the amount of players who have more than 2k mutagen samples in their inventories 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

1 hour ago, Vermitore said:

Essential would be something that if you do not have it, your access to non-trivial parts of the game is absolutely cut off.

ok now that is one vague definition since this game is infamously trivial from beginning to end but i guess you're talking about our official endgame consisting of sorties and raids, maybe going hours into endless... then the question arises: what's essential about being able to do that? it's all still part of an endless grind to become stronger to be able to efficiently grind even more. there is no goal per se, except that worthless MR number. yes, in the end it's all about completionism and e-peen, maybe fashionframe, if that's your thing. my point still stands: mastery is the only kind of progression the game officially keeps track of. if that's actually a smart thing is another story entirely, since mods are usually more telling about one's power instead of how much useless gear you amassed but like i said, that's not the point here. (also mr still gives you free loadout slots every 2 levels so it's not even that useless...)

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[theraot]

38 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Eventually, also, as clans which offer the research reach their capacity, people will be forced to form new clans to gain access to the research.

I had not considered that, thank you.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

2 hours ago, Vermitore said:

It may not be the best argument that the unique mechanics warrant the price, but it is as good an argument as the contrary.

i don't see why you would think that, like honestly i just don't understand the logic there. the hema is quite objectively in no way more "special" or even just efficient than the plethora of other items which are obtainable for a fraction of the cost, now is it? so its prize tag is just completely arbitrary, how does this make a good argument? in all honesty i'm a bit lost here.

i don't feel "entitled" to own this weapon but y'know... isn't it understandable i'm "spoiled" considering every other item in the same lab combined didn't have the same requirement?? if they feel those were actually too cheap why not bring everything to a moderate level instead now having this freakish outlier of a mutagen munching nightmare?

Edited January 6, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir

[theraot]

So, ranking the solutions we have (in order of balance disruption):

- Do Nothing
- Make Derrelict more interesting
- Reduce the research cost
- Increase drop rates / Add new ways to get Mutagen Samples
- Others

So, even if the drop rate / cost balance will not change[1] I guess a Derrelict rework is in order... it got to happen eventually, so waiting for that is viable as @(PS4)adrian80 suggests.

[1]: Whatever it is fair or not. On which I think it isn't. I won't go as far to say it is fine, yet I can see how it may not be that important thanks to @Vermitore's remarks.

---

Taking the weapon, its stats and the health mechanic, it is hard to deconstruct what would be a fair price.

@Vermitore's argument that it is not essential doesn't mean that the cost is fine, just that it doesn't matter that much.

I agree with what @Kotsender_Quasimir says... it is not a fair price:

On one hand the weapon doesn't seem as powerful to be worth its research cost, in particular when compared with other cheaper weapons. The idea that the weapon is too expensive comes in part from that, in part from the trouble it has been to get to pay for it, and in part from fear of the future. However I understand that there is no clear precedent for a weapon with that innate health mechanic, so giving a value for that got to be subjective, in particular without the chance to try it [2].

On the other hand, if we assume that all weapons in the lab are worth its value that means that Hema will be overpowered compared to the rest. I don't think that's case, judging from the threads that talk about Hema builds... if it were, I would expect to see power creep complains.

[2]: Which is another reason why I would like to have access to all weapon in the Simulacrum. That would ease deciding if the weapon is worth the cost, currently I have to get it to try it. I wonder if having all the weapons in the Simulacrum would mean less sales because people just buy exactly what they want, or more sales because people will be interested in weapons they currently don't mind... yet, I would bet on a decrese on sales.

How did DE come up with those values anyway? Could they talk about that on the devstream? My hunch is that it is just speculation. If balancing prices is not an option, then they can't really use us to market test.

[notlamprey]

It's worth remembering that future research in the Bio Lab could be locked behind Hema.

DE's "holiday math" plants the seed of future suffering.

[Vermitore]

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

ok now that is one vague definition since this game is infamously trivial from beginning to end but i guess you're talking about our official endgame consisting of sorties and raids, maybe going hours into endless... then the question arises: what's essential about being able to do that? it's all still part of an endless grind to become stronger to be able to efficiently grind even more. there is no goal per se, except that worthless MR number. yes, in the end it's all about completionism and e-peen, maybe fashionframe, if that's your thing. my point still stands: mastery is the only kind of progression the game officially keeps track of. if that's actually a smart thing is another story entirely, since mods are usually more telling about one's power instead of how much useless gear you amassed but like i said, that's not the point here. (also mr still gives you free loadout slots every 2 levels so it's not even that useless...)

 

 

You are absolutely right. There isn't a lot in the game which is not trivial. This also underpins the point that the Hema needn't be expensive, cheap or anything in between. The Grate Prime is no longer available - indefinitely. It denies you 3000 Mastery Points, just the same as the absence of the Hema does from your arsenal. Should the Grate Prime be made available as well? That is the direction your argument will eventually take you. Iff MR is essential and hindrances to its attainment are to be removed, then the logical conclusion is that the Grate Prime is the worst offender in this regard, based on the smallest number of people to have access to it.

 

1 hour ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

i don't see why you would think that, like honestly i just don't understand the logic there. the hema is quite objectively in no way more "special" or even just efficient than the plethora of other items which are obtainable for a fraction of the cost, now is it? so its prize tag is just completely arbitrary, how does this make a good argument? in all honesty i'm a bit lost here.

i don't feel "entitled" to own this weapon but y'know... isn't it understandable i'm "spoiled" considering every other item in the same lab combined didn't have the same requirement?? if they feel those were actually too cheap why not bring everything to a moderate level instead now having this freakish outlier of a mutagen munching nightmare?

 

It is arbitrary as all aesthetic items' cost is arbitrary. I find the vast majority of all syandanas to be horrendously cheesy because of my aesthetic tastes. That doesn't mean they should be cheaper just on account of that, or that things I like should be marketed at a higher price. It is the price it is and there is no reason why you MUST have it. Take it or leave it.

 

9 minutes ago, theraot said:

So, ranking the solutions we have (in order of balance disruption):

- Do Nothing
- Make Derrelict more interesting
- Reduce the research cost
- Increase drop rates / Add new ways to get Mutagen Samples
- Others

 

I have one more suggestion. Allow individual players to research it for themselves at a proportionate cost. Basically, take the average per member cost of all types of clans and calculate a personal average, calculating with clans filled with members to capacity. Or, say, just make it like 1000 to 2000 per person and be done with it.

 

5 minutes ago, notlamprey said:

It's worth remembering that future research in the Bio Lab could be locked behind Hema.

DE's "holiday math" plants the seed of future suffering.

Could be. Time will tell. Could also not be.

[theraot]

24 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

I have one more suggestion. Allow individual players to research it for themselves at a proportionate cost. Basically, take the average per member cost of all types of clans and calculate a personal average, calculating with clans filled with members to capacity. Or, say, just make it like 1000 to 2000 per person and be done with it.

I don't understand what you are suggesting... do you mean something like a "solo clan"? or do you mean to scale the values on the number of members of the clan instead of the capacity? or something else?

Btw, the number of Mutagen Samples per person for Hema would be 500 (that's 16 hours and 40 minutes of farming in derrelict survival if you don't use nekros and don't use boosters). So we get 5000 for Ghost Clan, 15000 for Shadow Clan, 50000 for Storm Clan, 150000 for Mountain Clan, and 500000 for Moon Clan.

Edited January 6, 2017 by theraot

[Vermitore]

22 minutes ago, theraot said:

I don't understand what you are suggesting... do you mean something like a "solo clan"? or do you mean to scale the values on the number of members of the clan instead of the capacity? or something else?

Btw, the number of Mutagen Samples per person for Hema would be 500 (that's 16 hours and 40 minutes of farming in derrelict survival if you don't use nekros and don't use boosters). So we get 5000 for Ghost Clan, 15000 for Shadow Clan, 50000 for Storm Clan, 150000 for Mountain Clan, and 500000 for Moon Clan.

You research the blueprint and then you make the weapon. That's what I meant. It is a solo affair from beginning to end.

[Flirk2]

And there are still people defending it.

The whole point of dojo research was to make a wait wall. 3 days when you couldn't get something without buying it. It was, until some point, not about resources, but about the time needed for research to complete.

I guess 3 days is just not enough anymore? They need more time? Like, ''2 weeks of constant derelict farming'' more time?

I made an account specifically to do the research and see how quickly can I progress through the new star chart without trading or a clan when I know where to look for things... Made a minimal dojo and in 150 hours of playing completed everything in energy lab, everything but Knux (because 10 tellurium? Really?) in chem lab, was half way through Tenno lab and almost half way through the bio lab. Now I know I will never experience the research side of the game in full. Because I'm suddenly supposed to find 9 more people and farm with them in the derelict for about 10 hours. Or farm derelict 100 hours by myself (and find a farming squad for every derelict mission of that 100 hours). One does not simply downsize a ghost clan, after all...

When I started bio lab research I thought: ''strange feeling - not having enough mutagen samples. I never needed those before''

Then the update came, and I suddenly need mutagen samples on my main account. Because 3.3k acquired through 1800 hours would not be enough even for a ghost clan.

I just don't see the point. Why do some people insist that multiplying a fair price by 100 is an OK idea?

[Vermitore]

10 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

And there are still people defending it.

The whole point of dojo research was to make a wait wall. 3 days when you couldn't get something without buying it. It was, until some point, not about resources, but about the time needed for research to complete.

I guess 3 days is just not enough anymore? They need more time? Like, ''2 weeks of constant derelict farming'' more time?

I made an account specifically to do the research and see how quickly can I progress through the new star chart without trading or a clan when I know where to look for things... Made a minimal dojo and in 150 hours of playing completed everything in energy lab, everything but Knux (because 10 tellurium? Really?) in chem lab, was half way through Tenno lab and almost half way through the bio lab. Now I know I will never experience the research side of the game in full. Because I'm suddenly supposed to find 9 more people and farm with them in the derelict for about 10 hours. Or farm derelict 100 hours by myself (and find a farming squad for every derelict mission of that 100 hours). One does not simply downsize a ghost clan, after all...

When I started bio lab research I thought: ''strange feeling - not having enough mutagen samples. I never needed those before''

Then the update came, and I suddenly need mutagen samples on my main account. Because 3.3k acquired through 1800 hours would not be enough even for a ghost clan.

I just don't see the point. Why do some people insist that multiplying a fair price by 100 is an OK idea?

You are saying that in times past things were different and that now things are hard. How is that an argument for departing from the status quo? Should we also make Law of Retribution solo content because of the logistical inconvenience presented by co-operative play? Why can't people come to terms with the fact that the Hema research was intended to be a co-operative effort? 500 mutagen per person is not that much considering both that once researched the weapon will be available for the entire existence of the clan and that most players already have respectable stockpiles of the stuff?

Edited January 6, 2017 by Vermitore

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

11 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

You are saying that in times past things were different and that now things are hard. How is that an argument for departing from the status quo? Should we also make Law of Retribution solo content because of the logistical inconvenience presented by co-operative play? Why can't people come to terms with the fact that the Hema research was intended to be a co-operative effort? 500 mutagen per person is not that much considering both that once researched the weapon will be available for the entire existence of the clan and that most players already have respectable stockpiles of the stuff?

 

[Vermitore]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

 

Care to elaborate?

[Flirk2]

19 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

You are saying that in times past things were different and that now things are hard.

No.

19 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Should we also make Law of Retribution solo content because of the logistical inconvenience presented by co-operative play?

Nice argument there. Was LoR ever solo content? Did you even read what I wrote?

 

19 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

Why can't people come to terms with the fact that the Hema research was intended to be a co-operative effort? 500 mutagen per person is not that much

It's too much. Because your 500 per person is assuming any clan is full or people who played at least 400 hours, maybe more.

19 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

and that most players already have respectable stockpiles of the stuff?

What part of ''1800 hours of playing gave me 3.3k mutagen samples'' did you not understand?

 

Look, you are defending an insanity here. Just read an think about it a little.

Before the Hema costs were placed based on lowest number of people in the clan. So a clan full of active players that exceeds lower rank even by 1 player would still be able to do research.

Let's say I have 11 friends that play every day 8 hours a day, but they will leave the game if forced to spend 8 hours in derelict? I can't have a ghost clan with 12 members, can I? So I make a shadow clan.

Only now they need 3 times more farming done. And they are OK with it until they need to farm 15k mutagen samples (1500 each, not 500).

And if I don't have friends? If I made a solo ghost clan to have access to clan tech? Before the Hema It was possible. Now it's impossible. As simple as that.

1 hour of farming to get enough to do research before Hema

100 hours of farming to get enough to do research on Hema

But you are OK with it and will defend it like it will hurt you if sanity would return to the research costs. Sorry, but at this point I said all I could.

DE starting to set prices not by lowest margin of clan membership, but by highest is, IMO a bad precedent.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Flirk2

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

Just now, Vermitore said:

Care to elaborate?

No, take your time to read the links i have provided u. I have nothing more to contribute to the conversation. 

[Vermitore]

14 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

No.

Yes you are. Your first three paragraphs compare then and now. Your fourth paragraph conjures up your tale of hardship and sorrow.

14 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Nice argument there. Was LoR ever solo content? Did you even read what I wrote?

I partially concede on this one. Sure, you can solo in a clan, but it is not the typical way to go about being in a clan.

14 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

It's too much. Because your 500 per person is assuming any clan is full or people who played at least 400 hours, maybe more.

What part of ''1800 hours of playing gave me 3.3k mutagen samples'' did you not understand?

How many hours of targeted farming is required to acquire 500 Mutagen Samples? I suspect it isn't 272 hours, right?

14 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Look, you are defending an insanity here. Just read an think about it a little.

Before the Hema costs were placed based on lowest number of people in the clan. So a clan full of active players that exceeds lower rank even by 1 player would still be able to do research.

Let's say I have 11 friends that play every day 8 hours a day, but they will leave the game if forced to spend 8 hours in derelict? I can't have a ghost clan with 12 members, can I? So I make a shadow clan.

Only now they need 3 times more farming done. And they are OK with it until they need to farm 15k mutagen samples (1500 each, not 500).

And if I don't have friends? If I made a solo ghost clan to have access to clan tech? Before the Hema It was possible. Now it's inpossible. As simple as that.

1 hour of farming to get enough to do research before Hema

100 hours of farming to get enough to do research on Hema

But you are OK with it and will defend it like it will hurt you if sanity would return to the research costs. Sorry, but at this point I said all I could.

DE starting to set prices not by lowest margin of clan membership, but by highest is, IMO a bad precedent.

Who said you need friends to do the research? You need people who will put in the hours and power through the grind. You don't have to be friends. Anybody competent and willing enough will suffice. If your friends are not both of those things, well tough.

11 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

No, take your time to read the links i have provided u. I have nothing more to contribute to the conversation. 

It is basically a post summarising what has been discussed in that thread as well as this, with statistical data thrown in. What is the point which you are making? If you don't have a specific one, you are posting a tautologous link which adds nothing.