HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[theraot]

18 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

500 mutagen per person is not that much

I get that, but that is an ideal number.

The larger the clan the higher the chances that it is not full, let alone full of active player who contribute. For example a clan of 11 persons is a Shadow Clan, so it costs 15000, meaning that each person would has to pay 1363 ~ 1364 mutagen samples.

On the other hand it is easier to have a small clan at full capacity with active players, this give a slight advantage to small clans.
 

22 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

once researched the weapon will be available for the entire existence of the clan

Under this argument the cost should be virtually infinite, because the duration of the clan is virtually infinite, and that would be true for all the weapons in the dojo. I don't think the time the weapon is aviable is a good metric to stablish a price.
 

23 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

that most players already have respectable stockpiles of the stuff

I don't know if this is true, I don't have stats on this regard... I understand that the bigger the clan the higher the cances that there will be players with large quantities of mutagen samples... I don't know if this factor is stronger than the the advantage small clans have that I described above... only DE knows. I wish they tell.

---

I think Hema wouldn't have been the issue it is if the weren't a price gap so large from the rest of the stuff. If you consider the experience described by @Flirk2 but with the costs steadily ramping up instead of the jump Hema supposes we could imagine a more favorable reaction. Note: the next most expensive item in Mutagen Samples is Synapse with 65 for the Ghost Clan, so it is 6.5 per player. We went from 6.5 per player to 500 per player. No wonder people react to that.

Btw, @Vermitore I added "Make research individual" to my list. It would be a great solution. Except that trying to imagine it from DE's point of view... balacing costs and drop rates is easier to implement, it should be just changing values.

[Maugre]

8 hours ago, Zookes said:

Slippery slope you say? We have already the very high Knux Cryotic research cost and very very high Sibear Cryotic construction cost. These do not bother so many because Cryotic happens as you play passively. To play some 50 excavation missions to 1k Cryotic is easy and common for players doing Heiracon for relics, credits and endo.

The problem of mutagen samples tho is where does it drop: derelict. Nobody plays derelict. It is a bad tileset and accessible only from keys, so people do not have so many of the drops from it.

Fix derelict. With time, people will not complain so much and maybe will have 5000 samples without thinking.

I hate to admit it, but you're not wrong (though I did buy the Sibear because of the ridiculous cryotic cost... I don't do much excavation out of preference, much like I don't do much derelict). Though I don't think the answer is fixing the derelict, as much as adding more places to get samples, so we can accumulate more over our play time. And maybe increase the drop rate a bit to compensate those of us that would say "well, now new players have the advantage because they'll get the research done sooner than we would have blah blah".

With that said, I still think the easier answer for everyone would be to just lower the cost. Then redo the drops before adding a new weapon, so they can prevent this mess in the future.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Maugre

[theraot]

33 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

How many hours of targeted farming is required to acquire 500 Mutagen Samples?

As per my experiments Derrelict Survival drop rates are as follow:

1 mutagen sample each two minutes, 1 per minute with nekros, 4 per minute with nekros and both boosters.

So it is 16 hours 40 minutes, 8 hours 20 minutes with nekros, 2 hours 5 minutes with nekros and both boosters.

But remember, @Flirk2 was trying to do the work of a Ghost Clan. So it is 10 times that: 166 hours 40 minutes, 83 hours 20 minutes with nekros, 20 hours 50 minutes with nekros and both boosters.

Edited January 6, 2017 by theraot
Double checked math

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

1 hour ago, Vermitore said:

Iff MR is essential and hindrances to its attainment are to be removed, then the logical conclusion is that the Grate Prime is the worst offender in this regard, based on the smallest number of people to have access to it.

well, if it's not in the game anymore i don't care. same for excal prime. but even if i felt that way (grate being an offender): what does it have to do with hema being too expensive? like i couldn't be upset about 2 issues at the same time? don't quite get it.

1 hour ago, Vermitore said:

It is arbitrary as all aesthetic items' cost is arbitrary. I find the vast majority of all syandanas to be horrendously cheesy because of my aesthetic tastes. That doesn't mean they should be cheaper just on account of that, or that things I like should be marketed at a higher price. It is the price it is and there is no reason why you MUST have it. Take it or leave it.

aesthetics are purely subjective, yes. usefulness of a weapon is not. sure, it's about flavour, too. but do you honestly think anyone (including DE) thinks hema "tastes" better than everything before it times ten? i don't.

____

can't believe people think 500 would be "nothing". it'd be more manageable, sure but still more than everything else combined. again: i had 400 something after 2888 hours of playing daily...

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

1 minute ago, Vermitore said:

Yes you are. Your first three paragraphs compare then and now. Your fourth paragraph conjures up your tale of hardship and sorrow.

I partially concede on this one. Sure, you can solo in a clan, but it is not the typical way to go about being in a clan.

How many hours of targeted farming is required to acquire 500 Mutagen Samples? I suspect it isn't 272 hours, right?

Who said you need friends to do the research? You need people who will put in the hours and power through the grind. You don't have to be friends. Anybody competent and willing enough will suffice. If your friends are not both of those things, well tough.

It is basically a post summarising what has been discussed in that thread as well as this, with statistical data thrown in. What is the point which you are making? If you don't have a specific one, you are posting a tautologous link which adds nothing.

Your defense of obvious incompetence is illogical.  And your either naive as to how MS samples are acquired or straight-up trolling. Either way there are legitimate concerns. The links I have provided elaborate on those concerns. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

28 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

It is basically a post summarising what has been discussed in that thread as well as this, with statistical data thrown in. What is the point which you are making? If you don't have a specific one, you are posting a tautologous link which adds nothing.

The ability to Empathize is what's needed, not the defense of key locked insanity.

Edited January 6, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[theraot]

Well, now that we bring that thread into the discussion, I'd like to point to the following to illustrate the poit I was making before:

Source:

Regarding 500 Mutagen Samples, I repeat: 

25 minutes ago, theraot said:

(...) that is an ideal number.

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by theraot

[theraot]

Devstream in 1 hour 30 minutes

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

won't be around i'm afraid, would have loved to be part of the chat :P ...

[(XBOX)DeluxeKnight831]

7 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

won't be around i'm afraid, would have loved to be part of the chat :P ...

twitch chat is always a mess anyways . 1k plus people spamming at the same time 

[theraot]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)DeluxeKnight831 said:

twitch chat is always a mess anyways . 1k plus people spamming at the same time 

plat, plat, plat, plat, umbra, plat, plat plat

[theraot]

@[DE]Steve This post, submited to your consideration.

I appreciate that you talked about Hema on the Devstream. Thank you.

[Syvarin]

They've just stated in the devstream that they're planning to increase mutagen mass drop rates rather than decrease the absurd research cost of Hema because some clans have already researched it.

I'm glad they're not continuing to ignore the issue, but it's still a bad solution. The hundreds of posts here on the forums regarding the cost suggest it was commonly regarded as a bug or at the very least a mistake that would be corrected.  People grinding for it anyway chose to do so knowing the cost would probably be reduced in the future. 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

19 minutes ago, Syvarin said:

They've just stated in the devstream that they're planning to increase mutagen mass drop rates rather than decrease the absurd research cost of Hema because some clans have already researched it.

called it... *sigh*

[Maugre]

19 minutes ago, Syvarin said:

They've just stated in the devstream that they're planning to increase mutagen mass drop rates rather than decrease the absurd research cost of Hema because some clans have already researched it.

Nothing about more locations or anything? Just the drop rate?

*sigh* Putting a band-aid on a broken leg. Hurts a little less, but doesn't exactly fix it.

Unless of course, they make it so much higher that you can get it in one or two runs. In which case, suddenly other costs are meaningless, and future costs will be even worse.

[LSG501]

Well I'll hold off until I fully know how much the drop rate is increased but first impressions are.... seriously, no consideration for clans that aren't full or not fully active... no stats mentioned either so pretty obvious they know they screwed the numbers up here but don't want to accept it in case they upset a minority of (veteran) players that already researched it.... so will just upset a majority of players who don't have years worth of stockpiled resources instead.... makes perfect sense.... look after the veterans who basically don't need anything while trying to push new players to plat.... nope not buying any more plat.

Edited January 6, 2017 by LSG501

[-Akeva-Banshee-]

8 hours ago, rudman88 said:

my clansmate has done it.

of course it is diffuclt

but hopefully DE will not do something like this again.

Is not that impossible, each member jsut need to cough up 500 mutagen sample (moon clan size)

As hard as it is to believe this is becoming an increasly more common trend. DE is making more outrageous decisions lately. My faith in their desicion making is dropping at an exponential rate. The Cyst and the Hema are just the most recent. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by -Akeva-Banshee-

[theraot]

@Kotsender_Quasimir it is better than ignoring the subject and better than doing nothing. I don't know how serious the idea of increasing the drop rate is...

@Maugre The question they took on the devstream was whatever or not they would increase the drop rate... I don't think they have considered all the alternatives. Anyway, Steve has said that they would be talking about (and will not close the door to) increasing the drop rate and try to find a better balance but will leave the cost as it is.

@LSG501 They have just said they will consider it. So the increase in drop rate as far as we can tell is nil until new notice.

---

Btw, @[DE]Rebecca what is the paid path for clans? you said "specially if do the free path", but what is the paid path for clans? One of the solutions I suggest is to allow to use pl to pay for the research.

[(PSN)Sange13]

If Mutagen Samples dropped in quantities similar to Oxium, this might be okay, but I still haven't seen a good justification for its cost when compared to its usefulness.

[-Akeva-Banshee-]

3 hours ago, theraot said:

Well, now that we bring that thread into the discussion, I'd like to point to the following to illustrate the poit I was making before:

Source:

Regarding 500 Mutagen Samples, I repeat: 

 

In a perfect clan it would be but like many clans mine has quite a few players that can't even get to the place to farm these without a taxi. That being said only 30-70 mutagen samples drop per a 40min def or approx 50 per a 20 min survival. This burns out new players that at this rate need to farm 500. So reasonable? not in any sense of the word. Wich begs the question burn out paying players and have them go to other games? That's a very bad business strategy to me. DE swallow your pride and just adress this not skirt around it. 

[theraot]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Sange13 said:

If Mutagen Samples dropped in quantities similar to Oxium, this might be okay, but I still haven't seen a good justification for its cost when compared to its usefulness.

And you won't see it. The price stuck because there is people who was able to get it pretty early, this is a precedent to DE getting away with any price tag as long as somebody can pay it.

Edit:

I wish @[DE]Steve makes a new clan with his new account so he can see how daunting Hema can be, well... I guess that if he tries to get Hema his stream would be boring because of farming hours.

Edited January 6, 2017 by theraot

[main_antagonist]

I had another idea to fix it if you'd like a gander;

 

[theraot]

4 minutes ago, main_antagonist said:

I had another idea to fix it if you'd like a gander;

 

Added as a note under "Add new ways to get Mutagen Samples"

[Jerakl]

13 hours ago, WolfTitan said:

There. Fixed for you.

Decades might've been more appropriate tbh

[Volinus7]

From what they said in devstream85, they admitted that they want to "force" people to play. So basically the more supply we stocked up the harsher the future grind will be. 

They don't want players who have a ton of resources to just push the button when the new contents come up.