HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Weidro]

1 minute ago, Azrael said:

This is not an argument. It might not even be true. It is only an expression of a defeatist attitude.

you should discuss this with [DE]Steve and not with me
all i did is to quote him

if you really care you should be able to find a recording of his stream if you search for it

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

18 minutes ago, Zookes said:

The hema costs tho? It is/was a long-term goal, I accept this and think others should accept this also. Unfortunate tho this goal crosses into such bad play areas.

To those not yet having it: the weapon is not so good as to be first priority. You miss nothing except MR points by not immediately having it.

ironically you're giving yourself the answer why it is not acceptable right there: this long term effort goes into a single weapon not unlike any other mastery fodder in the game. if we chew this one down what comes next? this is rising the benchmark in an alarming rate.

[nerfinator6]

On 05/01/2017 at 3:44 PM, Totorochan said:

After reading this thread, now I just feel bad. Originally I was just going to post a quick "lol hema isn't expensive what are you lads on about" but now I get it.

I mean, I didn't even think about it. I walked into the dojo, typed '9999999' into every field,hit the research button, then came back three days later to get my blueprint and build the gun.

I literally did not even notice the cost. I mean, why would I? I have hundreds of thousands of mutagen samples, thousands of neurodes, and millions of everything else it needs. The concept of needing to farm for a resource is honestly baffling. The concept of spending platinum on a resource is gob smackingly alien.

This whole thread has been one giant privilege check. I had no idea the average Warframe player was struggling with this.

HOW?

[Zookes]

4 minutes ago, Kotsender_Quasimir said:

ironically you're giving yourself the answer why it is not acceptable right there: this long term effort goes into a single weapon not unlike any other mastery fodder in the game. if we chew this one down what comes next? this is rising the benchmark in an alarming rate.

Slippery slope you say? We have already the very high Knux Cryotic research cost and very very high Sibear Cryotic construction cost. These do not bother so many because Cryotic happens as you play passively. To play some 50 excavation missions to 1k Cryotic is easy and common for players doing Heiracon for relics, credits and endo.

The problem of mutagen samples tho is where does it drop: derelict. Nobody plays derelict. It is a bad tileset and accessible only from keys, so people do not have so many of the drops from it.

Fix derelict. With time, people will not complain so much and maybe will have 5000 samples without thinking.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

4 minutes ago, nerfinator6 said:

HOW?

like srsly i'm at 2900 steam hours and i didn't even have 500 when hema was introduced... why would people play regularly in derelicts?? def and surv were semi-popular for ember/nova parts for a while but that's pretty much it. were these people permanently vault running for 3 years or what?!

[WolfTitan]

7 hours ago, theraot said:

I'm affraid DE could just not mention Hema in the devstream :/

I can imagine that DE was too ashamed of itself. And rightfully so. Next time, look at the median, not mean, of the number of samples per player. Or better yet, focus on the player experience rather than obsessing over grind and numbers.

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

Just now, WolfTitan said:

Next time, look at the median, not mean, of the number of samples per player.

well, maybe that's what they did but still thought it'd be a good idea because y'know... christmas money wants to be spend does it not?

anyway, tinfoil or not: in the last official statement steve said it WAS a mistake, so now they'll have to treat it as such.

[theraot]

I get they want their numbers, I get they want their money.

I understand that it makes sense to please the whales and that user experience doesn’t translate directly to more sales.

DE has a finite set of resources, and it makes sense to use those resources in something that give them more resources... otherwise they would go bankrupt. So, it makes sense to make things for people to buy, and it makes sense to make things that people won't want to farm for but to buy instead... this means that it makes sense to increase the farming cost so that people would prefer to buy with premium currency.

I can't blame them for any of that... the whales are their keys to power: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs

That doesn't mean that improving the game for everybody is useless. In fact, the game without all the players will be boring for those who pay. There is value in DE keeping their player base around. Increasing the farming increases the frustration of the players; steadily more will be leaving the game. This damages the image of the game. And having a high player rotation is not healthy; they want players to stay for long enough and engaged enough to convert them into paying players.

But who I'm I to tell them... better let somebody with experience in the game industry tell them:

 

[Kotsender_Quasimir]

25 minutes ago, Zookes said:

The problem of mutagen samples tho is where does it drop: derelict. Nobody plays derelict.

agreed.

it's still a quite a step up from the 30k cryo tho and an even bigger in comparison to all the stuff in chem lab... i know this has been brought up again and again but still: mind the numbers! more than everything so far combined times ten... surreal.

[General_Durandal]

1 hour ago, Weidro said:

this would mean that all players have to put in the same effort
just older players have already done so and new players still have to do so

I'm sure you would agree that a teenager should work before he is able to buy a house and a car
and I'm sure you agree that its fair is a already grown up man can do it since he already put in the effort

its the same here in the game
your argument proofs my point 3)

No, this would mean DE would see that not every player has 500 samples on hand at all times.

And even then, it's 5000 minimum.

Meaning you'd need a minimum of 10 members with 500 each.

You Founders might find it hard to believe, but not every player has mountains of resources.

500 samples is a mountain. hek, 250 samples is a mountain.

The only time anyone ever farms samples, is when there is something that needs them to be built.

The most mutagen samples needed to build something,

used to be 65, for Synapse, which is a much better weapon.

Here is a list of every research item that needs mutagen, and how much.

Mutagen Mass 5

Phage 10

Torid  10

Medium Team Heal Restore  30

Acrid 10

Medium Team Heal Restore x 10 30

Dual Ichor 25

Scoliac 25

Dual Toxocyst 20

Embolist 30

Djinn 60

Mios 30

Cerata 25

Mutalist Quanta 30

Pox 20

Synapse 65

Paracyst 30

Hema 5000

5+10+10+30+10+30+25+25+20+30+60+30+25+30+20+65+30=455

Hema, all on it's own, costs MORE THAN TEN TIMES more than ALL THE REST OF THE BIO RESEARCH COMBINED!

THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by General_Durandal

[K4r4k4s4]

29 minutes ago, nerfinator6 said:

HOW?

Because he always playing with boosters, according to his stats in profile. And probably farming ODD a lot in the past.

[Ditto132]

@General_Durandal
For a complete calculations and reasonings, refer to this post: 
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/738163-re-updated-ghost-clan-needs-5000-mutagen-samples-to-research-hema-500000-mutagen-samples-for-a-moon-clan/?page=130#comment-8240374

Just in case someone pointing out your number is wrong... even though it doesn't matter if you round it up to 500 or 1000

[Weidro]

4 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

5+10+10+30+10+30+25+25+20+30+60+30+25+30+20+65+30=455

Hema, all on it's own, costs MORE THAN TEN TIMES more than ALL THE REST OF THE BIO RESEARCH COMBINED!

THAT IS NOT ACCEPTABLE!

dude clam down

we know it
DE knows it
everybody knows the numbers and comparisons by now

again its not on me to change it and DE clearly stated it wont be changed
DE has acknowledged that some players dislike it
and they will consider it somehow for future content

but for the Hema nothing will change
you have to accept that

and to be honest 500 is no mountain
do some ODS with hydro nova nekro and you are good

[Weidro]

@Ditto132 thanks for linking the original thread
even if this is the only post that matters since it contains all important information

so yeah @General_Durandal you should read the entire mega thread carefully and slowly to understand it all
and then decided if you really want to repeat what has already been said

[General_Durandal]

5 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

@General_Durandal
For a complete calculations and reasonings, refer to this post: 
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/738163-re-updated-ghost-clan-needs-5000-mutagen-samples-to-research-hema-500000-mutagen-samples-for-a-moon-clan/?page=130#comment-8240374

Just in case someone pointing out your number is wrong... even though it doesn't matter if you round it up to 500 or 1000

The numbers are taken directly from the wiki, so, is the wiki wrong?

[Ditto132]

2 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

The numbers are taken directly from the wiki, so, is the wiki wrong?

Wiki is not really updated... for example, you missing Caustacyst.

[General_Durandal]

6 minutes ago, Weidro said:

dude clam down

we know it
DE knows it
everybody knows the numbers and comparisons by now

again its not on me to change it and DE clearly stated it wont be changed
DE has acknowledged that some players dislike it
and they will consider it somehow for future content

but for the Hema nothing will change
you have to accept that

and to be honest 500 is no mountain
do some ODS with hydro nova nekro and you are good

DE has said many things that wouldn't/would happen, that did/didn't happen.

Stop accepting the BS and fight againt the broken system.

They wont fix anything unless we complain about it enough.

Example,

Scythe sneak attack still makes you fall through the floor,

everyone stopped using scythes it seems, because no-one's complaining about it.

 

 

 

[General_Durandal]

2 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Wiki is not really updated... for example, you missing Caustacyst.

I did notice that, but even with it on the list,

Hema is still more than 10 times the cost of everything combined,

so I didn't bother adding it.

[General_Durandal]

8 minutes ago, Weidro said:

@Ditto132 thanks for linking the original thread
even if this is the only post that matters since it contains all important information

so yeah @General_Durandal you should read the entire mega thread carefully and slowly to understand it all
and then decided if you really want to repeat what has already been said

If something is broken, and you yourself can't fix it,

you need to complain to the people that can fix it till they fix it.

If you don't, then it doesn't get fixed.

Real life example,

Guy has an ant problem at his apartment.

He calls the manager and says there is an ant problem.

The next day he gets a message that the ants are gone, but they aren't.

A few days later the guy calls again to complain about the ants.

Later, again, the guy is told the ants have been dealt with, but they havn't been.

The guy then tells them if they don't deal with the ants he'll call a lawyer,

later they tell him the ants are dealt with, but they are still in his house.

The guy calls a lawyer, and the lawyer calls the manager.

The next day the ants are actually gone and the guy can rest easy.

[Weidro]

2 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

Stop accepting the BS and fight againt the broken system.

 

2 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

If something is broken, and you yourself can't fix it,

you need to complain to the people that can fix it till they fix it.

thing is i don't think there is anything broken with the Hema or the Hema research cost at all

the only problem i can see so far is that some players are surprised that they have to farm for something and don't get it for close to free anymore
and like i said above everybody has to farm it veterans and new players
you just want it right now and instead of farming you think you can achieve something by ranting
just spent your time wit farming instead of complaining and you could be done by now

that's how i see it

 

7 minutes ago, General_Durandal said:

The guy calls a lawyer, and the lawyer calls the manager.

no offense but there is a cultural difference i guess

I'm from germany and we learned how to talk to people instead of running to a lawyer for everything
and if you would try to contact a lawyer just because of some ants they would laugh at you and tell you to call the management yourself
and if you did call the management they will fix it asap no need for a lawyer
we don't have these kind of incompetent managers around here
everybody here in germany would tell to to grow up and start to act yourself instead of crying at a lawyers desk

so yeah your example seems so wrong to me just like a twisted weird bad dream

[General_Durandal]

40 minutes ago, Weidro said:

 

thing is i don't think there is anything broken with the Hema or the Hema research cost at all

the only problem i can see so far is that some players are surprised that they have to farm for something and don't get it for close to free anymore
and like i said above everybody has to farm it veterans and new players
you just want it right now and instead of farming you think you can achieve something by ranting
just spent your time wit farming instead of complaining and you could be done by now

that's how i see it

 

no offense but there is a cultural difference i guess

I'm from germany and we learned how to talk to people instead of running to a lawyer for everything
and if you would try to contact a lawyer just because of some ants they would laugh at you and tell you to call the management yourself
and if you did call the management they will fix it asap no need for a lawyer
we don't have these kind of incompetent managers around here
everybody here in germany would tell to to grow up and start to act yourself instead of crying at a lawyers desk

so yeah your example seems so wrong to me just like a twisted weird bad dream

It's funny how you keep taking the one little but that could be used badly by itself, and ignore the rest.

It's ILLEGAL for a landlord/apartment manager to not deal with anything that hinders your life or health.

An ant infestation, is a hazard to your health, and your living space.

Would you like having ants crawl on you while you sleep?

NO!

 

Now, yes, the Hema weapon's ridiculous resource cost isn't going to hurt you physically in real life,

but that's not the point!

The point is that,

"if something is broken, and you can't fix it, you need to get the people that can fix it to fix it,"

"and if they don't fix it then you need to bring it back up till they do"

You also forgot to mention the in-game bug i told you about, that they haven't fixed yet,

because everyone started to just avoid the bug instead of report the bug.

 

You brainwashed people, that accept all the bad things, are what is ruining the games nowadays.

You and the corporate suits that only care about money.

 

The suit gets the game rushed, it's buggy because of that,

and the brainwashed people that accept the bugs prevent the game from being fixed,

because instead of complaining about the bug, or BS addition,

you instead complain that people are complaining about your perfect game that is always good no mater what.

I don't care if you, one person,

is fine with having one item that costs ten times more resources than every other item COMBINED together.

I care about the player mass as a whole, I care about the new players, and the old players.

I care about Warframe, the game itself.

DE has already shot itself in the foot.

You don't see it, because you purposely ignore the problems,

but people are leaving this game in droves.

And the number one reason, is the grind.

Edited January 6, 2017 by General_Durandal

[Weidro]

@General_Durandal read the mega thread if you still care
and make sure to read all of it
its linked here several times

i have said everything i could possibly say here
only thing left to do would be to repeat myself or to insult OP
don't have the time to repeat myself over and over again
and OP seems capable of insulting himself quite good so i don't need to do that either

PS.:
[Shift]+[Return] for small line breaks
[Return] for big line breaks
always a pleasure to help <3

Edited January 6, 2017 by Weidro

[Vermitore]

I agree with the minority in this thread. I think the costs are fine, for the simple reason that the Hema is not an essential item. It doesn't get you much more 'win' if you own the Hema. As for clans charging plat to allow people to join. Well, so what? I think that's entirely fine. You are not entitled to clan membership, nor are you entitled to clan membership on your terms. When you join a clan, you gain access to content you would not otherwise have. It is a service to offer that content and if you don't like it, you can opt to take your contributions elsewhere. Take it or leave it. As simple as that.

[WhiteMarker]

The only change needed is a higher drop-chance on Eris. I would like to farm samples in public rounds. And Extractors should bei able to get us samples more often. Nothing esse is needed or wanted by DE.

[theraot]

37 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

I agree with the minority in this thread. I think the costs are fine, for the simple reason that the Hema is not an essential item.

It is true it is not essential. In fact I could say of most of the content on the game if not all.

I think being a research there is a bit of extra pressure because it is always harder for clan that don't have completed their research projects to recruit members, precisely because...
 

37 minutes ago, Vermitore said:

When you join a clan, you gain access to content you would not otherwise have. It is a service to offer that content (...)

As warlord I wanna complete it so my clanmates have access to it.

---

Disclaimer: Actually my clanmates have completed the donations that I was too tired to farm. I think it would be hypocritical to pretend that there is no longer a issue just because I'll be getting Hema. I wish it had not been the problem it was, and there are consequences for my clan... I removed inactive players, some good friends, and we did shrink... we won't be able to grow again until the 60 day penalty is over.

--

If we really go meta, this is just a game, and these are "first-world problems".

Still, there is discontent, we express it, and we want a response from DE.

Edited January 6, 2017 by theraot
typo