HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[_sheepy_]

1 hour ago, nerfinator6 said:

Oh S#&$, I think I just solved the riddle...

The reason the Hema is so expensive isn't because it has a new mechanic (steals health to reload/innate lifesteal), you know how DE mentioned having a "cure" to the cyst? That's what the Hema's gonna be for, and the only way to get rid of the cyst is to get the Hema.

Could be,but why so expensive for that?

[(PSN)Sange13]

2 hours ago, Merrowen said:

A bit late to the discussion, so I won't repeat what others said about the issue already. By the way, I'm not too happy about hema research cost, but it's not a game changing weapon either.

Instead, I'd like to say that I'm a bit worried by this issue because of something else.

In 2015, leyou (chineese chicken meat producer) bought 61% of DE. They finalized takeover in 2016. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyou ) By the end of 2016, we have hema, A run of the mill weapon that might as well have a tag 'real money only please' on it. If hema is one off event, fine. It's silly expensive to research, but who cares. But what if it's just first sign of change? I played two other games, that got killed off after asian takeover. City of heroes and firefall. I liked both. If these leyou guys decide to turn warframe into some korean level grindathon with cash shop, the only game model they seem to understand and push for, warframe will lose a lot of people, and with them, life expectancy.

I hope I'm wrong about this. I guess time will tell

I played Firefall, never spent a dime, got everything, did everything, and left when it had nothing else to offer. I really liked the game, but I'm not sure the point you're trying to make applies to it. I've spent a fair bit on Warframe, and still don't have everything, still haven't done everything, and I don't think this is the beginning of a new pattern. If it is, the devs will feel it almost immediately because this player base is very reactionary to that sort of thing. However, I think this is a theme we may see in small doses here and there. It's extremely irritating and unhealthy for 95% of the (casual) player base, but the very few who have an overabundance of resources won't mind either way. It's more meant to appeal to them--even if the weapon is unimpressive.

[Merrowen]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Sange13 said:

I played Firefall, never spent a dime, got everything, did everything, and left when it had nothing else to offer. I really liked the game, but I'm not sure the point you're trying to make applies to it. I've spent a fair bit on Warframe, and still don't have everything, still haven't done everything, and I don't think this is the beginning of a new pattern.

The point (in reference to firefall) I've been making took place probably after you left the game. Yes, it's been free to play, sandbox open world. After asian company that pulled the strings of red 5 took control of the game, they scrapped all the sandbox and open world, and turned the whole thing into a linear string of missions you have to do in order, cutting a lot of social aspect in the process (helping people do their missions was actually detrimental, not helpful), and the focus of the game became grinding 'end game' raid. Gone were world events, like watchtower takeovers and town sieges. After the truth of that set in, most of the people left the game. Last I heard red5 were shutting down or something, and the game as such was about to be closed down. I didn't follow the news, so I don't know what happened next.

As for the hema starting a pattern, I hope I'm wrong and you are right. Time will tell. But reactionary playerbase doesn't mean much when it comes to business. After koreans shut down city of heroes playerbase got so vocal (in a polite way) that it got to the national news. End result? Game remains shut down. If they decide to push warframe in the direction of most chineese and korean mmo's, they won't pay attention to how loud playerbase yells.

[LuckyCharm]

8 minutes ago, Merrowen said:

they won't pay attention to how loud playerbase yells.

Are they even paying attention to their playerbase now though? 

We've been asking for universal vaccuum, tonkor and simulor nerfs, nerfs to nullifiers, changes to limbo and oberon, energy regeneration changes, enemy armor scaling (not necessary imo) and other things for literally years. And so far what we've got have been buffs to nullifiers, a half assed vaccuum that caused death threats, increasingly more grind and less to do, oh.. and now space herpes.

Sound like they listened? not really. 

[Totorochan]

After reading this thread, now I just feel bad. Originally I was just going to post a quick "lol hema isn't expensive what are you lads on about" but now I get it.

I mean, I didn't even think about it. I walked into the dojo, typed '9999999' into every field,hit the research button, then came back three days later to get my blueprint and build the gun.

I literally did not even notice the cost. I mean, why would I? I have hundreds of thousands of mutagen samples, thousands of neurodes, and millions of everything else it needs. The concept of needing to farm for a resource is honestly baffling. The concept of spending platinum on a resource is gob smackingly alien.

This whole thread has been one giant privilege check. I had no idea the average Warframe player was struggling with this.

[LordLokai]

5 hours ago, WrathAscending said:

If Mutagen Samples dropped at the same rate as Fieldron and Detonite Samples did it it would allow us to chase the target down pretty fast.

I honestly think DE's thought process ran "Mutagen is just the faction research resource like Fieldron or Detonite, everyone must have plenty, 5K will be done and dusted easily" without taking into account it's either been bugged from the start or has intentionally been more limited in drops than Fieldron/Detonite so they're actually about as rare as, if not rarer than, Neurodes.

But then they went on break (again, understandable, it's that time of year) and are left with the question of what to do about it since the assumption they made about how many Mutagen Samples the average player has was wildly off base and they need to take into account fairness to Clans who did grind it out in whatever they do going forward.

I think the real message here is not to release new content immediately before going on break so that this is avoided or can at least be promptly addressed in the future.

This is samples dropped in more areas, and had same drop as other resources this whole problem would never have been a problem, i mean i have 1000's of other two resources easily, but barely any samples because they simply do not drop in the same quantity as other resources do. Simply normalizing them with other types of resources would fix the problem in general.

[k05h]

7 hours ago, theraot said:

Do nothing

As tempting as the may seem for DE farming for mutagen samples will devaluate other "rare" ressources. At the current time ODD is the best place to farm Mutagen Samples. I have had my fair share of 20 waves runs. While I only got around 3000 Mutagen Samples (I need 5k) so far I am drowing in almost 600 neurodes and 250 orokin cells. By the time I have my full share of 5k I might have 1k in neurodes and 400-500 orokin cells. - This is just plain wrong.

7 hours ago, theraot said:

Boost drop rates

If they do then all other research cost in the biolab is trivial. All mutagen sample research in the bio lab except Hema for a moon clan is 500 samples. With boosted drop rates DE would have to adjust all those research costs to reflect the reality of the boosted drops. 

7 hours ago, theraot said:

Reduce research costs

This is the simplest and most obvious way that has the smallest impact on other ressources or reseach costs. It would not require additional adjustments to any other bio lab research or "rare" ressource inflation from farming mutagen samples.

 

As it stands right now DE has put itself in a difficult situation and doing the obvious is not normally not the way of DE. 

[theraot]

11 minutes ago, k05h said:

7 hours ago, theraot said:

Boost drop rates

If they do then all other research cost in the biolab is trivial. All mutagen sample research in the bio lab except Hema for a moon clan is 500 samples. With boosted drop rates DE would have to adjust all those research costs to reflect the reality of the boosted drops. 

That's a Con, I'll be adding that, thank you.

Taking this into account the best way to go will be to rebalance resource costs.

Edit 1: updated first post.

Edit 2: Noticed your coment on "Do Nothing" is also a con worth adding, so did that too.
 

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by theraot

[Hesyol]

Add new ways to get mutagen samples AND increase their drop rate. That looks like an obvious decision from the start, if they decided to create such a crazy cost. Why haven't they done that is beyond me

[theraot]

7 hours ago, Totorochan said:

After reading this thread, now I just feel bad. Originally I was just going to post a quick "lol hema isn't expensive what are you lads on about" but now I get it.

I mean, I didn't even think about it. I walked into the dojo, typed '9999999' into every field,hit the research button, then came back three days later to get my blueprint and build the gun.

I literally did not even notice the cost. I mean, why would I? I have hundreds of thousands of mutagen samples, thousands of neurodes, and millions of everything else it needs. The concept of needing to farm for a resource is honestly baffling. The concept of spending platinum on a resource is gob smackingly alien.

This whole thread has been one giant privilege check. I had no idea the average Warframe player was struggling with this.

I pretty much type '9999999' too, yet my wealth isn't big enough for Hema,

 I appreciate the sympathy... I want to know what you think DE should do...

You see... according to Steve's response on the mattter you have earned Hema. (Well, you and everybody in your clan who didn't have to contribute for the research because you did it)

So, Steve puts forward the idea that people who have earned Hema won't be happy if they drop the cost. So, as a person who have earned Hema... What would you think if DE decides to drop the research cost? Would you feel cheated by DE? Would you want some reparation? What would it be?

I have a post with various possible solution that DE could do (including doing nothing):

Would you prefer any of those? or do you have any suggestion or observations to add?

Sorry for the battery of questions, I really wanna know from somebody who doesn't have this problem, in particular because Steve claims that keeping the cost is protecting your interests.

(And yes, I understand that you can't speak for everybody who got the research done)

So, please, tell.

[JustSneaky]

If you care so much about players wasting time while farming specific resource, why you didn't care, when you cap kuva at 3.500. How about THOSE wasted hours for specific resource.

How about farming Oxium on single planet, within single tileset, from single enemy. Same with Cryotic.

How about farming Saturn boss for Orokin cells.

Ongoing trend maybe?

[Ciaus]

3 hours ago, JustSneaky said:

If you care so much about players wasting time while farming specific resource, why you didn't care, when you cap kuva at 3.500. How about THOSE wasted hours for specific resource.

How about farming Oxium on single planet, within single tileset, from single enemy. Same with Cryotic.

How about farming Saturn boss for Orokin cells.

Ongoing trend maybe?

Yeah, the first point in my OP was how the logic Steve used is logic DE has been very willing to go against previously. And with reason. The same reason applying here. I hope they can see this and turn the decision around.

Devstream in 26 hours time!

[(PSN)Sange13]

I think the player base just needs to keep harping on about this issue until DE gets tired of hearing about it, admits they are wrong, and fixes it. I don't see any other way that DE wouldn't just leave it as is.

[Ciaus]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Sange13 said:

I think the player base just needs to keep harping on about this issue until DE gets tired of hearing about it, admits they are wrong, and fixes it. I don't see any other way that DE wouldn't just leave it as is.

Indeed. As much as it's not something I'd normally do too often, I've been trying to make sure this and the major Hema thread stay on their respective first pages and trying to add whatever new thoughts I have. 

I do think with the Dev Stream (23 hours!) a good opportunity will be presented however. 

[-Akeva-Banshee-]

I am clan lord of the Triest Elite. Me and my generals have agreed that hema mutagen costs are unacceptable. In response we have edited the MOTD to say. "Mutagen sample contributions are NOLONGER needed for the hema research. Contributions are a waste until DE decides to address the issues nuff said." Due to limited space in MOTD I could not state the extensive reasons. Wich obviously are stated in pages above. I hope the trend of clan lords posting similar messages continues. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by -Akeva-Banshee-

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

I wonder if they'll talk about it in the dev stream, and not just briefly glance over it

[nerfinator6]

21 hours ago, _sheepy_ said:

Could be,but why so expensive for that?

Because DE

[theraot]

I'm affraid DE could just not mention Hema in the devstream :/

[Ciaus]

9 minutes ago, theraot said:

I'm affraid DE could just not mention Hema in the devstream :/

Then there will be more threads until they do. 
And less playing on my part, and advertising the game to friends, until they do.

EDIT: Basically, don't let them not mention it. It's important this is addressed adequately. 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Ciaus

[Vasala]

They really need to either drop the amount needed drastically or massively increase the drop rate of mutagen samples. I know my clan has only managed to do about half of the 50k needed for our size. I put in the 3.5k that I had from all my time playing which did include a fair amount of ODD. The drop rate is just too low for the amount needed since not every clan is completely full of active players.

[theraot]

19 minutes ago, Ciaus said:

Then there will be more threads until they do. 
And less playing on my part, and advertising the game to friends, until they do.

EDIT: Basically, don't let them not mention it. It's important this is addressed adequately. 

You know how the devstream goes... people ask about limbo rework, oberon rework, umbra, future primes, tileset reworks, bard frame, umbra, suggesting new concepts... umbra... Edit: deluxe skins, ash rework, tennogen, archwing, dojo, umbra, future quests, quality of life, buff / nerf, umbra...

Also, if today's Prime Time is any indication the attention is going to the Cyst.

Edited January 6, 2017 by theraot

[theraot]

17 hours ago, Hesyol said:

Add new ways to get mutagen samples AND increase their drop rate. That looks like an obvious decision from the start, if they decided to create such a crazy cost. Why haven't they done that is beyond me

Wouldn't the obvious decision from the start to no have such crazy cost?

[notlamprey]

2 hours ago, theraot said:

You know how the devstream goes... people ask about limbo rework, oberon rework, umbra, future primes, tileset reworks, bard frame, umbra, suggesting new concepts... umbra... Edit: deluxe skins, ash rework, tennogen, archwing, dojo, umbra, future quests, quality of life, buff / nerf, umbra...

Also, if today's Prime Time is any indication the attention is going to the Cyst.

You know, it really wouldn't be the worst thing for us as concerned players if Hema research costs were overlooked and "officially forgotten about." It would be bad for the game, but we would at least have a clearer path for future decisions.

I could at least consider it to be a certain degree of closure with respect to how much I should care about this game. Right now, the outcome is still in doubt and I still feel invested in seeing some sort of conclusion.

Even if the eventual conclusion isn't one I'm happy with, I will at least get some form of closure and (assuming the worst case) be free to move on.

Edited January 6, 2017 by notlamprey

[notlamprey]

Wow. You put a lot of thought into this one.

That alone probably deserves an upboat.

Having looked at all the options available, I would first want to see a reduction in the research cost. This would be most in line with DE's previous efforts at adjusting balance, and from a technical standpoint would probably require the least amount of dev time.

I don't think that's enough if we want a positive long-term change. Drop locations and prevalence for Mutagen Samples is skewed a long way from Detonite Ampules and Fieldron Samples; that needs to be addressed also.

tl;dr - this lay person thinks we need an immediate reduction in research cost, combined with a near-future balance pass to increase the availability of Mutagen Samples.

[Herosupport]

DE made the mutagen sample requirement just one digit to high.