_sheepy_ Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Just now, Retrijeuj said: Well, yes and no. I have already given my arguments for the matter, and I have nothing particular to answer, so if my arguments didn't convice you already, I'm done. I made good points to why your comment/post was just plane wrong. You made no argument to the contrary. Sounds to me like your running away from your original comment because you now realize it's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retrijeuj Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 1 minute ago, _sheepy_ said: I made good points to why your comment/post was just plane wrong. You made no argument to the contrary. Sounds to me like your running away from your original comment because you now realize it's wrong. If I try to answer to your arguments, you'll answer to my answer and we'll go on an endless, pointless excuse of a debate in which we'll both end up spouting nonsense and running in circles. So see it as "running away" if this makes your day, for what it's worth. I don't feel like going on with the same arguments over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_sheepy_ Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 12 hours ago, (PS4)Bigjoe1627joseph said: Just downgrade your clan to the amount of active people you have problem solved. If the whole clan contributes it's only 500 samples. I have 11 active people in my clan so it's 15k. I just went up a clan size and was hoping to build it up to 30 when they introduced this ridiculous crap that they said was NOT a mistake/bug. So for me the problem is not solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Sange13 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 This is one of those things that gets completely ignored until it eventually becomes "convenient"--like Wukong, only about 50x worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_sheepy_ Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 On 1/3/2017 at 3:04 AM, shadrad said: chiming in here to say that I'm one of the many veteran players who really aren't upset about this at all Not being funny but i don't think MR18 with 30 days play time constitutes being a veteran player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zookes Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, _sheepy_ said: Not being funny but i don't think MR18 with 30 days play time constitutes being a veteran player. 30 days being 720 hours, is a long time to play a game. When do you draw this line of veterancy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shockwave- Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 17 hours ago, enizer said: It still looks to me like not everyone fully understands the problem. It's not grinding 5000 of something that's the big problem, though the amount is insane for a thing that drops in single units in very few locations. The problem is twofold, #1 their estimation of how much each member needs to contribute, estimated 100% participation of 100% useful members, and #2, drop locations(adressed lower down). Most clans are NOT at their member cap. Most clans do also not have purely useful members. Even members that play quite well for endgame content, may still give you the finger for extended resource farming. ..We are already approaching only 1/4th of most clans might be useful for farming, making their initial estimate WAY off. So, we need to grind 5000 of a thingy that drops at a rate of 1/minute outside meta farming groups and boosters. Ok, that's been doable so far, I didn't complain of the other silly high requirement ones, that required oxium, cryotic, or such resources, I just moved to their respective planet, it got done eventually. So, what is it this time, mutagen sample.. ok, that's.. Eris and the derelict.. so, I'll play on Eris for a few days.. oh wait, Eris drops the samples at 1/hour..and, I need 5k? Eris is right out, that will take YEARS. Ok, onto the derelict then, no matchmaking, no alerts, no void missions, no kuva, need to build keys per mission.. so, that makes this a pure farming trip then. The drop rate(as quoted from the megathread) is 1/minute. so, that's looking at a base time of.. wait.. REALLY? 83 MANHOURS? IN THE DERELICT? Even if we get a very favorable ratio of 40% (WELL above the average useful ratio of clans in my experience), and double the drop rate by meta play, including atlas, nekros, hyrdos, and those frames, that's still over 8 hours(per person) of monotonous derelict runs, with NO OTHER WAY TO GET IT. You just need to dedicate those hours grinding a mission noone actually likes, no non-boring way possible. And then there's the trend some people are seeing appear: "*cough* boosters for sale if you want to get to some of that fabled FUN you came here for." This needs to be handled carefully. And at the very least, DE, please avoid deadline patches, they cause some serious issues, and unlike the one last summer, this one had over a week for tempers to reach the boiling point, with no useful answers or comments. -- If this sounds aggressive that's unintended, I'm just getting a strong feeling that many people, perhaps even DE themselves, aren't quite clear on exactly what the problem is. Change clan research to this: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/739338-new-approach-to-clan-research-suggestion/#comment-8208368 Locking alot of weapons behind clan research already takes a huge amount of content off the table for those who want to play solo or not in a clan. This would allow completely casual clans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ciaus Posted January 4, 2017 Author Share Posted January 4, 2017 Everyone, DE is holding Devstream on Friday. I implore you to bring this issue up in the thread and make it a priority topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)YoungGunn82 Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, Ciaus said: Everyone, DE is holding Devstream on Friday. I implore you to bring this issue up in the thread and make it a priority topic. Done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_sheepy_ Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, Zookes said: 30 days being 720 hours, is a long time to play a game. When do you draw this line of veterancy? personally i'd call that about average. In my opinion a veteran player stands out a bit more from the crowd than 30 days play time over the last 3 years. But hey that's just my opinion,only mentioned it because he said he's one of the many veteran players that don't care about the ridiculous research cost. Edited January 5, 2017 by _sheepy_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerfinator6 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 On 03/01/2017 at 11:13 AM, Retrijeuj said: Wow, you guys really need to chill. You're all talking like it is vital for your account to get the Hema ; may I remind you it's just a weapon, and you have plenty more to try ? If you really want the weapon, but don't want to farm for it, then farm corrupted mods, prime parts, whatever, and sell them. Buy the Hema when you get enough plats. But stop *@##$ing about a ressource you never took the time to grind. People are freaking out because they have only a few hundreds of mutagen samples after years of gaming. Yes, you only have this amount of mutagens, but when did you farm it ? Probably once or twice, while you were farming ODD/ODS/whatever. Stop saying DE is killing the game, when you're the ones who don't want to put any effort into it. As Fifilona said, just run ODD, ODS, maybe even Eris missions. Farm orokin caches on Eris to get a Shell-shock mod. Farm relics. Farm cells. Level up weapons. What the hell are you doing when you're not farming ? The whole game is about farming and leveling your gear, if you're not doing all that, I don't see what you could be doing. Also, just because you guys are yelling louder than others doesn't mean you are a majority. DE will survive without you, because while you're complaining after every update, people are still playing and enjoying new content. Buying it with plat is NEVER an excuse for such @(*()$ POOR planning on DE's part. Don't defend this garbage. If you NEED to buy it with plat, then something's wrong with the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theraot Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) Is the research cost of Hema an issue? Yes it is, there have been various threads on the topic. For abstract: IT IS CRAZY EXPENSIVE. Details of the situation: Spoiler If you are unaware of the situation, you can see here: Ranty notes: Spoiler - My own bias: I don't have Hema, I haven't seen it around, I don't know if it is actually a great weapon worth its value (I'm acting under the assumption that it isn't). I know there are clans that have Hema done, in fact I have seen posts of clans using Hema as a recruitment point and also players saying that farming for Hema research is not a big deal. At least I agree that it is doable for a Ghost Clan... why only for Ghost Clan? Read "The scaling" below. - Higher prices don't incentive cooperation: The harder it is to reach the goal (in particular without having a clear idea of what they will get) less people will be interested in even trying [ A ]. This leaves less players contributing, which worsen the situation of low activity [ B ]. - How to hype people: DE should use the Simulacrum to allow people to test new weapons and see if they are worth it. In fact, I think there sould a Simularum in the dojo so we can encourage people to test the new weapons there to get them interested in contributing to their research. - The gap: Hema research costs leaves a huge price gap. Also if Hema is worth its value (which according to many players in the formus it isn't) then it is creating a power gap too. - The scaling: Consider a clan that is moving form a tier to the next, it will take a while until it becomes full again, the time it takes is longer for each tier. This means that it should be expected that the higher tier the clan is the less probable it is for it to be full. Therfore scaling prices by the capacity is not appropiate. As it currently the majority of bigger clans have a harder time collecting the resources than the smaller ones (read: each player would have to contribute a larger ammount), and this is disregarding inactive / uninterested players. [ A ]: We, the humans, need reasonable goals and a steady difficulty curve to stay interested. [ B ]: I keep an active clan in terms of days since last login, but the playing time per day per player are low as far as I can tell. When I say "playing time" I mean in actual missions. Rant: A lot of people left the game ending 2015, clans were left desertic... if I need to blame something that is Wukong's nitain extracts. I have inherited this Moon Clan, that wast the first time I did shrink it, the original founders left to create a new Ghost Clan so the costs were lower for them... I changed the Clan's name, and made it a Mountain Clan. Then came (forgot what, actually)... ok, Storm Clan. And now Hema... Shadow and Ghsot clan right away. There is no more shrinking left DE... only leaving the game. With that out of the way, I'm here to talk about the solutions... ***Possible DE Solutions*** Do nothing Pros: - It gives scarcity to the weapon, making it more exclusive Cons: - The increased farming is not alleviated - The price gap is not alleviated - Diminishes the value of creating new clans - People farming Mutagen Samples creates stockpiles of other resources Increase the weapon stats Pros: - It gives scarcity to the weapon, making it more exclusive - Makes the weapon worth its cost Cons - The increased farming is not alleviated - The price gap is not alleviated - Potential power gap (see: power creep) - Diminishes the value of creating new clans - People farming Mutagen Samples creates stockpiles of other resources Boost drop rates Pros: - Increases access to the weapon - Farming is alleviated Cons: - The price gap is not alleviated - It makes some of the other research costs trivial Reduce research costs Pros: - Increases access to the weapon - Farming is alleviated - The price gap is alleviated - Makes the weapon worth its cost Cons: - Clans that have "earned it" would have "wasted" resources by not waiting Reduce research costs & move extra resources to clan vault Pros: - Increases access to the weapon - Farming is alleviated - The price gap is alleviated - Makes the weapon worth its cost Cons: - Requires to run script - There isn't where to use the extra mutagen samples in the clan Reduce research costs & make gifts to clans that have it Pros: - Increases access to the weapon - Farming is alleviated - The price gap is alleviated - Makes the weapon worth its cost Cons: - Requires to run script - Doesn't retribute proportionally Reduce research costs, Put the cost on the item instead of the research Pros: - It gives scarcity to the weapon, making it more exclusive - Farming is alleviated Cons: - It is not clear how to retribute or compensate player, if at all Allow research with pl Pros: - Increases access to the weapon - Farming is alleviated - Creates a new revenue source for DE Cons: - Requires new development - People farming Mutagen Samples creates stockpiles of other resources Allow incentive plans [1] Pros: - Increases player participation Cons: - Farming is not alleviated - Requires new development - People farming Mutagen Samples creates stockpiles of other resources [1]: Such as a) allowing the warlord to create a lotery (by donating some tradable item such as prime gear, mods or pl) and donating resources translates into buying tickets for that lotery. Or b) allowing the warlord to place a pl bounty on the resources where the donations are paid back to the players in pl at some conversion rate. Add new ways to get Mutagen Samples [2] Pros: - Increases player participation - Farming is alleviated - Makes it easier for new players to help Cons: - The price gap is not alleviated [2]: This is similar to just boosting the drop rate, although ti could be better by giving other farming options. Here are some ideas: A) Give all juggernauts a drop of 1 to 5 Mutagen Samples, this means that you can farm mutagen samples anywhere there are infested while keeping they rare. B) Just allow it drop from any infested. C) Make extra mutagen samples a passive of the Helminth Charger. Cyst to mutagen samples [3] Pros: - Increases player participation - Farming is alleviated - Makes it easier for new players to help Cons: - The price gap is not alleviated - Requires new development [3]: A way to cure that Cyst that also yields at least around 100 Mutagen Samples. Create new ways to reduce research costs [4] Pros: - Increases access to the weapon - Farming is alleviated Cons: - The price gap is not alleviated - Requires new development [4]: I'm suggesting any combination of these: A) Allow to improve the labs in the dojo with some resource cost, and once done all the research costs get a reduction. B) Allow to move the dojo in the starchat (as teased) and depending on the nearest planet a different lab gets a cost reduction. C) Allow to move the dojo in the starchat (as teased) and let it work as a extractor for the nearest planet, automatically contributing to any research that needs those resources. Make Derrelict interesting for other reasons Pros: - Increases access to the weapon - Increases player participation Cons: - Requires new development - The increased farming is not alleviated - The price gap is not alleviated - Diminishes the value of creating new clans - People farming Mutagen Samples creates stockpiles of other resources Make research individual [5] Pros: - It gives scarcity to the weapon, making it more exclusive - Farming is alleviated Cons: - The price gap is not alleviated - Requires new development [5]: The sojo stores the research status for each player individually, so each player would have to make the research individually. This would have to be paired with donating resources to the dojo vault, so people that want to help other can donate resources that then are used by other players in their research. ***Analysis*** After looking at the solutions I have to conclude that BOOSTING THE DROP RATES is the best option for DE, it is simple to implement and will make most people happy. After taking into account that BOOSTING THE DROP RATES will affect how hard it is to get complete research projects, that is no longer the best option. Instead I have to conclude that DE should REDUCE RESEARCH COSTS for Hema or otherwise rebalance the costs and drop rates. Although I'm not DE, I can only make suggestions. I would like to know what fix other people may want to see, which one do people prefer... ***Gamer Solutions (a.k.a. Non-Solutions)*** - Farm in ODS (It yields 1 Mutagen Sample each 2 minutes with 25% error due to RNG. Double that per farming frame - eg: 1 nekros -> 1 Mutagen Sample per minute - and up to 4x with both boosters) - Don't research the weapon, buy it with pl if want it - Shrink the clan (or disband to join or create a ghost one) - Pay people to join your clan, donate and leave - Leave the gameWhat will you be doing about this? Edited January 7, 2017 by theraot Added main_antagonist's suggestion under "Add new ways to get Mutagen Samples" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theraot Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I'll take this space to shamelessly promote this recent post of mine: I did not post that here because I hope that this way people will actually see it since it won't be burried below hundreds of replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kotsender_Quasimir Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) gotta love how their ongoing "sweeping under the rug" strategy works... playerbase already bargaining. in the end they'll probably settle with just fixing eris drop rates (which would have been overdue since ages anyway, i mean just check out the discrepancy of pretty much everyones stacks of detonite ampules / fieldron samples in comparison to mutagen samples (which was probably the exact reason why this ludicrous cost was introduced in the first place)) and everyone will be ecstatically thankful. plat will have been spent, clans will have been downsized. gg DE. edit: people, this is still about a single freaking weapon! these costs are an outlier no matter how you look at it. if DE want to introduce long term goals for clans to strife for that's totally OK! but not for what we were used to get for a fraction of the cost! erase two zeroes from the mutagen sample cost and bring it in line with the rest, period! Edited January 5, 2017 by Kotsender_Quasimir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LSG501 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 21 minutes ago, theraot said: After looking at the solutions I have to conclude that BOOSTING THE DROP RATES is the best option for DE, it is simple to implement and will make most people happy. What will you be doing about this? They'll need to boost it a fair bit then if they do boost it, not just double the drop rate but make 3 to 4 times the drop rate at the very minimum. Personally I think it needs lowering and I doubt that many clans will have built it except those filled with veterans or players that literally live in the game and don't have real life things like work to contend with. What will I be doing about it.... simple, I've stopped buying plat (I will happily give money to a company that is fair to it's players but the recent comments etc has just shown a 'bad side' to DE) and like pretty much the rest of my clan not adding anything into the Hema research because it would be a waste of the limited mutagen samples I've collected because we'll never hit the required amounts with the current drop rates and the limited number of fully active players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funtimehippie Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) i think boosting the drop rate isn't enough, imo i think factions should drop their respective type of clan resource, like infested always have chances to drop mutagen samples corpus have chances to drop fieldron samples etc. this would let farming samples be in more areas instead of just the OD Edited January 5, 2017 by funtimehippie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merrowen Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 A bit late to the discussion, so I won't repeat what others said about the issue already. By the way, I'm not too happy about hema research cost, but it's not a game changing weapon either. Instead, I'd like to say that I'm a bit worried by this issue because of something else. In 2015, leyou (chineese chicken meat producer) bought 61% of DE. They finalized takeover in 2016. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyou ) By the end of 2016, we have hema, A run of the mill weapon that might as well have a tag 'real money only please' on it. If hema is one off event, fine. It's silly expensive to research, but who cares. But what if it's just first sign of change? I played two other games, that got killed off after asian takeover. City of heroes and firefall. I liked both. If these leyou guys decide to turn warframe into some korean level grindathon with cash shop, the only game model they seem to understand and push for, warframe will lose a lot of people, and with them, life expectancy. I hope I'm wrong about this. I guess time will tell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theraot Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) I see... this can be mapped to the Kübler-Ross model Denial: It is a bug Anger: It is not fair Bargaining: you could increse drop rates ... DE, these are stages of grief are we ending our relationship? Edit: It would be interesting if DE comes around to say that they have done a partnership with some university and they were conducting a join study in behavioral economics, psychology or something like that. Edited January 5, 2017 by theraot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volinus7 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Put WF on hiatus. Pro -Zero farm, Zero grind -Completely free -Don't have to watch your beloved game go through ugly updates Con -None Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theraot Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 15 minutes ago, LSG501 said: They'll need to boost it a fair bit then if they do boost it, not just double the drop rate but make 3 to 4 times the drop rate at the very minimum. Personally I think it needs lowering and I doubt that many clans will have built it except those filled with veterans or players that literally live in the game and don't have real life things like work to contend with. Agreed. A boost would have to be at least 3 fold. 8 minutes ago, funtimehippie said: i think boosting the drop rate isn't enough, imo i think factions should drop their respective type of clan resource, like infested always have chances to drop mutagen samples corpus have chances to drop fieldron samples etc. this would let farming samples be in more areas instead of just the OD Also Agreed. Farming is more bearable if we are not lock into a single tileset... also it would allow new players (that don't have acess to Eris or Derrelict yet) to participate. That's a pro, I'll be adding that. @Volinus7 will you be playing something else? We may need a "What to play after warframe" thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volinus7 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 3 minutes ago, theraot said: I play forum.warframe instead. Watching people get sautéed by DE is really enjoyable for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nerfinator6 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Oh S#&$, I think I just solved the riddle... The reason the Hema is so expensive isn't because it has a new mechanic (steals health to reload/innate lifesteal), you know how DE mentioned having a "cure" to the cyst? That's what the Hema's gonna be for, and the only way to get rid of the cyst is to get the Hema. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volinus7 Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 22 minutes ago, theraot said: I see... this can be mapped to the Kübler-Ross model Denial: It is a bug Anger: It is not fair Bargaining: you could increse drop rates ... DE, these are stages of grief are we ending our relationship? Edit: It would be interesting if DE comes around to say that they have done a partnership with some university and they were conducting a join study in behavioral economics, psychology or something like that. Human experiment without consent, time to get sued. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WrathAscending Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 If Mutagen Samples dropped at the same rate as Fieldron and Detonite Samples did it it would allow us to chase the target down pretty fast. I honestly think DE's thought process ran "Mutagen is just the faction research resource like Fieldron or Detonite, everyone must have plenty, 5K will be done and dusted easily" without taking into account it's either been bugged from the start or has intentionally been more limited in drops than Fieldron/Detonite so they're actually about as rare as, if not rarer than, Neurodes. But then they went on break (again, understandable, it's that time of year) and are left with the question of what to do about it since the assumption they made about how many Mutagen Samples the average player has was wildly off base and they need to take into account fairness to Clans who did grind it out in whatever they do going forward. I think the real message here is not to release new content immediately before going on break so that this is avoided or can at least be promptly addressed in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_sheepy_ Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Merrowen said: A bit late to the discussion, so I won't repeat what others said about the issue already. By the way, I'm not too happy about hema research cost, but it's not a game changing weapon either. Instead, I'd like to say that I'm a bit worried by this issue because of something else. In 2015, leyou (chineese chicken meat producer) bought 61% of DE. They finalized takeover in 2016. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leyou ) By the end of 2016, we have hema, A run of the mill weapon that might as well have a tag 'real money only please' on it. If hema is one off event, fine. It's silly expensive to research, but who cares. But what if it's just first sign of change? I played two other games, that got killed off after asian takeover. City of heroes and firefall. I liked both. If these leyou guys decide to turn warframe into some korean level grindathon with cash shop, the only game model they seem to understand and push for, warframe will lose a lot of people, and with them, life expectancy. I hope I'm wrong about this. I guess time will tell This post will probably get deleted,They don't like you to mention their chicken meat producer friends. But I've been thinking it for quite some time with the relic grind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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