HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[kaliazane]

5 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

Seem like you don't know how to spend your credits wisely. I don't just work my head off, just so I can spend more.

Seems like you don't even play the game, thats why you consider couple millions a lot. Lets say you buy new mod and max it, thats almost 3 mil right there.
 

Well, you can ask @KIREEK too. I believe that @Naskoni is curious as to why he didn't obtain half of the all the things in the game.
Maybe I spent too much time on modding, testing out weapons in the Simulacrum and prioritising what mods to max in the Liset. Instead of mindlessly farming in missions.

And so did I, but at same time I obtained everything not mindlessly farming but farming in a smart way.
 

Right... assume. Have you seen me keep pestering DE to rush out more contents?
Personally, I pace out getting new contents and based on interest. Just like why I got the Zarr but not those melees that require Kuva first.
As for Hema, it doesn't really interest me that much. I'm here because the cost is ridiculous and inconsistent.

Yes you posted big list of things you'd like to see, preferably every week. For someone who want's new content I'm really surprised you didn't even bother buying market bp for a new weapon, especially considering that requirements to build it are nothing to veteran like yourself.

By design, new resources wouldn't have such an exorbitant amount of requirement.
For example, Zarr requiring 1,800. Each Kuva mission (not flood) giving 200-700, getting Zarr only need 3 to 9 runs.
So far, I played less than 20 Kuva missions.

You don't know that through, if they still wanted it to be something that is a clan goal and takes time to complete it would. I think that you are burned out on this game, if completely new system that came with epic quest that you asked for earlier only kept you interested for 20 games. Don't you see how its physically impossible for them to release such quest with new system attached to it very often ?
 

So if I were to scam new players by selling them prime items at exorbitant plat price, and I am doing well that I am right? Cash-grab is right?
So you are comparing Warframe to thousands other games that mostly required a one-time payment and doesn't really have updates frequently to keep play refreshing?
Seems like Hema is indeed a scam.

The what ? What scam ? Hema for new players ? Dude just stop.

I'm comparing it to thousands of completely different games, plenty of which have frequent updates or microtransactions.

Great... Didn't even bother to find out what that is actually. Just like you didn't even bother trying out other PvE games that you used in your arguments.
Like I said above. "Personally, I pace out getting new contents and based on interest." and don't expect major updates every week.
Game development doesn't work that way, doubling team size wouldn't double their output. In fact, that would incur cost.

No, I don't play any other mainly pve games currently, that's what I said. Only reason why I'm even comparing it to anything is because you compared warframe to some pvp games, which made no sense at all since we don't have pvp competition factor here (I'm ignoring conclave due to how almost nobody plays it)

You seem to know a lot about game development and game mechanics, why not create your own perfect game. You could work on it alone, since big team apparently would slow you down. Lets see you smash those steamcharts. I think that would be better, then expecting this game to put out big update every week so you can not even obtain contents of it, regardless of how easy or hard they are to get. Mainly because you are burned out and busy playing other 200 steam games as you mentioned yourself.

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by ViS4GE

[MirageKnight]

11 hours ago, Madotsuki said:

My advice? Just pretend Hema doesn't exist. If you've got gear to power-level and enough friends who can be asked, sure, go run ODD every once in a while and bank some exp while you're at it, but otherwise, just do something else. It's just one imaginary gun in a video game, who cares?

...inb4 Hema because prerequsite to all future infested research, and future research uses similar costs. I guess we'll just quit then if that's how DE wants to ruin their game >_>

As head of a more or less solo clan I've pretty much just ignored the Hema in favor of finishing up research in the Infested Lab for things I do want to try out; there are arguably better and more reasonably costed things I can spend Mutagen Samples on. ^{Yes I still haven't built Djinn yet...}

It's a good philosophy to have - "I do want to try out item x, but no worries, I'll get it when I get. I don't need it ASAP." But as has been pointed out, what if Hema research winds up being a requirement for a future Infested weapon I really would like to try? I'm then forced to either grind one lackluster (in terms of rewards and resources) tileset for 1-2 months or give DE plat for the weapon I do want. Honestly, that doesn't feel right to me and I can't be the only player that feels the same way.

 

 

 

[Liminal]

26 minutes ago, MirageKnight said:

As head of a more or less solo clan I've pretty much just ignored the Hema in favor of finishing up research in the Infested Lab for things I do want to try out; there are arguably better and more reasonably costed things I can spend Mutagen Samples on. ^{Yes I still haven't built Djinn yet...}

It's a good philosophy to have - "I do want to try out item x, but no worries, I'll get it when I get. I don't need it ASAP." But as has been pointed out, what if Hema research winds up being a requirement for a future Infested weapon I really would like to try? I'm then forced to either grind one lackluster (in terms of rewards and resources) tileset for 1-2 months or give DE plat for the weapon I do want. Honestly, that doesn't feel right to me and I can't be the only player that feels the same way.

I entirely agree with you, and I think the biggest problem is that "I'll get it when I get it" in the Hema's case is pretty much never. And that's never been the case before, not even with the Knux research.

[Ditto132]

3 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Seem like you don't know how to spend your credits wisely. I don't just work my head off, just so I can spend more.

Seems like you don't even play the game, thats why you consider couple millions a lot. Lets say you buy new mod and max it, thats almost 3 mil right there.

I don't play the game? So the 1,000+ hours I spent doesn't matter?
That is 3 million per new Primed mod, that is if I didn't buy from Baro. New Primed mods are released occasionally.
Why would I keep buying mods from trade chat if I already have them or don't need them?
Also not all mods are that expensive to max.

How about asking the rest of the players here? How much credits do you guys consider enough?

Well, you can ask @KIREEK too. I believe that @Naskoni is curious as to why he didn't obtain half of the all the things in the game.
Maybe I spent too much time on modding, testing out weapons in the Simulacrum and prioritising what mods to max in the Liset. Instead of mindlessly farming in missions.

And so did I, but at same time I obtained everything not mindlessly farming but farming in a smart way.

How about being smart by not farming at all?

Right... assume. Have you seen me keep pestering DE to rush out more contents?
Personally, I pace out getting new contents and based on interest. Just like why I got the Zarr but not those melees that require Kuva first.
As for Hema, it doesn't really interest me that much. I'm here because the cost is ridiculous and inconsistent.

Yes you posted big list of things you'd like to see, preferably every week. For someone who want's new content I'm really surprised you didn't even bother buying market bp for a new weapon, especially considering that requirements to build it are nothing to veteran like yourself.

I listed things that most players wanted from the previous threads, especially devStream threads. And nowhere did I stated it to be every week.
Why must I bother to get the blueprint when I am not going to play with it any time soon? I can buy it anytime when I going to play with it.

By design, new resources wouldn't have such an exorbitant amount of requirement.
For example, Zarr requiring 1,800. Each Kuva mission (not flood) giving 200-700, getting Zarr only need 3 to 9 runs.
So far, I played less than 20 Kuva missions.

You don't know that through, if they still wanted it to be something that is a clan goal and takes time to complete it would. I think that you are burned out on this game, if completely new system that came with epic quest that you asked for earlier only kept you interested for 20 games. Don't you see how its physically impossible for them to release such quest with new system attached to it very often ?

Quests in Warframe so far, doesn't have lot of replay values. It should be interesting and enjoyable mechanics that keep people playing it.
Again, nowhere did I stated that I wanted new contents very often.

So if I were to scam new players by selling them prime items at exorbitant plat price, and I am doing well that I am right? Cash-grab is right?
So you are comparing Warframe to thousands other games that mostly required a one-time payment and doesn't really have updates frequently to keep play refreshing?
Seems like Hema is indeed a scam.

The what ? What scam ? Hema for new players ? Dude just stop.

4 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Honestly, that doesn't feel right to me and I can't be the only player that feels the same way.

I'm comparing it to thousands of completely different games, plenty of which have frequent updates or microtransactions.

Please convince me with some examples.

Great... Didn't even bother to find out what that is actually. Just like you didn't even bother trying out other PvE games that you used in your arguments.
Like I said above. "Personally, I pace out getting new contents and based on interest." and don't expect major updates every week.
Game development doesn't work that way, doubling team size wouldn't double their output. In fact, that would incur cost.

No, I don't play any other mainly pve games currently, that's what I said. Only reason why I'm even comparing it to anything is because you compared warframe to some pvp games, which made no sense at all since we don't have pvp competition factor here (I'm ignoring conclave due to how almost nobody plays it)

I am comparing game mechanics there, but you just can't see pass the "PvE is different from PvP".

You seem to know a lot about game development and game mechanics, why not create your own perfect game. You could work on it alone, since big team apparently would slow you down. Lets see you smash those steamcharts. I think that would be better, then expecting this game to put out big update every week so you can not even obtain contents of it, regardless of how easy or hard they are to get. Mainly because you are burned out and busy playing other 200 steam games as you mentioned yourself.

There are no perfect games. And if you think making games is easy, you are so wrong about it.
Also making games is not about "smashing those steamcharts" and it involve lot of passion, dedication, skills, taking risks and luck.
Making games requires diversity of skills. I usually like to form a small indie team of 2 to 6, making communications less of an issue.

Once again, "busy playing other 200 steam games as you mentioned yourself"?
All I said is:

On 02/02/2017 at 4:20 PM, Ditto132 said:

Even for some reasons that I managed to consume all the new contents, I would wait for the updates while I play some of my ~200 games in Steam. Or do some other hobbies.

So stop distorting my words...

 

[kaliazane]

56 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Seem like you don't know how to spend your credits wisely. I don't just work my head off, just so I can spend more.

Seems like you don't even play the game, thats why you consider couple millions a lot. Lets say you buy new mod and max it, thats almost 3 mil right there.

I don't play the game? So the 1,000+ hours I spent doesn't matter?
That is 3 million per new Primed mod, that is if I didn't buy from Baro. New Primed mods are released occasionally.
Why would I keep buying mods from trade chat if I already have them or don't need them?
Also not all mods are that expensive to max.

How about asking the rest of the players here? How much credits do you guys consider enough?

You don't play it currently, thats what being burned out means. You log in and chill on your ship, instead of exploring new contents that are constantly added into the game. You don't need credits, or endo and kuva because you aren't really playing.  Also this is how inefficient I am with my credits and it's still not much.

 

 

Well, you can ask @KIREEK too. I believe that @Naskoni is curious as to why he didn't obtain half of the all the things in the game.
Maybe I spent too much time on modding, testing out weapons in the Simulacrum and prioritising what mods to max in the Liset. Instead of mindlessly farming in missions.

And so did I, but at same time I obtained everything not mindlessly farming but farming in a smart way.

How about being smart by not farming at all?

Or not playing it, which is what you should do if you don't feel like it. Believe it or not, but lots of people are playing right now and enjoying it.

Right... assume. Have you seen me keep pestering DE to rush out more contents?
Personally, I pace out getting new contents and based on interest. Just like why I got the Zarr but not those melees that require Kuva first.
As for Hema, it doesn't really interest me that much. I'm here because the cost is ridiculous and inconsistent.

Yes you posted big list of things you'd like to see, preferably every week. For someone who want's new content I'm really surprised you didn't even bother buying market bp for a new weapon, especially considering that requirements to build it are nothing to veteran like yourself.

I listed things that most players wanted from the previous threads, especially devStream threads. And nowhere did I stated it to be every week.
Why must I bother to get the blueprint when I am not going to play with it any time soon? I can buy it anytime when I going to play with it.

Lots of new stuff is coming, did you watch recent devstream ? You obviously don't have to buy it, just like you don't have to farm for hema. But I would buy it if I wanted new content, and so I did.

By design, new resources wouldn't have such an exorbitant amount of requirement.
For example, Zarr requiring 1,800. Each Kuva mission (not flood) giving 200-700, getting Zarr only need 3 to 9 runs.
So far, I played less than 20 Kuva missions.

You don't know that through, if they still wanted it to be something that is a clan goal and takes time to complete it would. I think that you are burned out on this game, if completely new system that came with epic quest that you asked for earlier only kept you interested for 20 games. Don't you see how its physically impossible for them to release such quest with new system attached to it very often ?

Quests in Warframe so far, doesn't have lot of replay values. It should be interesting and enjoyable mechanics that keep people playing it.
Again, nowhere did I stated that I wanted new contents very often.

They are not suppose to have much replay values, they are suppose to add new game systems that will keep game active for months to come.

So if I were to scam new players by selling them prime items at exorbitant plat price, and I am doing well that I am right? Cash-grab is right?
So you are comparing Warframe to thousands other games that mostly required a one-time payment and doesn't really have updates frequently to keep play refreshing?
Seems like Hema is indeed a scam.

The what ? What scam ? Hema for new players ? Dude just stop.

5 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Honestly, that doesn't feel right to me and I can't be the only player that feels the same way.

I'm comparing it to thousands of completely different games, plenty of which have frequent updates or microtransactions.

Please convince me with some examples.

I'm not here to convince you, all you have to do is go through steamcharts and compare it to even newly released triple A games. Yet alone to the ones that has been on that list for few last years. All what really matters is that warframe is doing well right now, despite you thinking that what's going on is end of the world. Hell, even compare it yourself to the Killing Floor 2 you mentioned yourself.

Great... Didn't even bother to find out what that is actually. Just like you didn't even bother trying out other PvE games that you used in your arguments.
Like I said above. "Personally, I pace out getting new contents and based on interest." and don't expect major updates every week.
Game development doesn't work that way, doubling team size wouldn't double their output. In fact, that would incur cost.

No, I don't play any other mainly pve games currently, that's what I said. Only reason why I'm even comparing it to anything is because you compared warframe to some pvp games, which made no sense at all since we don't have pvp competition factor here (I'm ignoring conclave due to how almost nobody plays it)

I am comparing game mechanics there, but you just can't see pass the "PvE is different from PvP".

I don't see any extraordinary game mechanics in games you mentioned, also if you go through forum of any game you will see plenty complaining there, despite your claims that they have amazing systems.

You seem to know a lot about game development and game mechanics, why not create your own perfect game. You could work on it alone, since big team apparently would slow you down. Lets see you smash those steamcharts. I think that would be better, then expecting this game to put out big update every week so you can not even obtain contents of it, regardless of how easy or hard they are to get. Mainly because you are burned out and busy playing other 200 steam games as you mentioned yourself.

There are no perfect games. And if you think making games is easy, you are so wrong about it.
Also making games is not about "smashing those steamcharts" and it involve lot of passion, dedication, skills, taking risks and luck.
Making games requires diversity of skills. I usually like to form a small indie team of 2 to 6, making communications less of an issue.

Once again, "busy playing other 200 steam games as you mentioned yourself"?
All I said is:

On 2.02.2017 at 9:20 AM, Ditto132 said:

Even for some reasons that I managed to consume all the new contents, I would wait for the updates while I play some of my ~200 games in Steam. Or do some other hobbies.

So stop distorting my words...

You didn't consume all contents through, even after thousands of hours. I'd say thats pretty good and robust game right here if it managed to do that.

In it's core, making games is about making money, if you won't you can't pay for servers and even keep it online. Yet alone pay artists and everyone else for their work.

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by ViS4GE

[MirageKnight]

With all due respect, ViS4GE..and at the risk of having this post deleted and possibly incurring a warning point...

I'm not going justify or explain myself to the likes of you anymore. It's pointless and a waste of time. Why? Because you've already made your mind up and there's nothing that I (or anyone else for that matter) can say that might have you reconsider your point of view. You just want to set up people so you can try and beat them down or at least have them beat their heads against the proverbial brick wall...and I refuse to fall for that.

At least I can go into a discussion with a point of view and make myself open to the possibility I might not be correct on things. Given sufficient evidence and solid reasoning, my opinion on a topic can indeed change or at least get me thinking "You know...this person has a good point and it's worth considering."

At one point (back around the Hema Megathread) I even considered that a part of what you had said on this topic might possibly be valid. But you almost immediately discredited yourself by being stubborn, unreasonable, and dismissive and by resorting to straw-man arguments, thinly veiled attacks on people rather than their arguments, black and white thinking, obfuscation, appeals to emotion and authority and cherry picking facts in an effort try and win this debate. Not to mention that your premises are highly questionable and your reasoning is flawed.

That said, you honestly don't strike me as being interested in what is actually right or correct on the matter of Hema research cost and its current effect on players and clans...and its possible effect on future research and such. Rather, the impression I get is that you're solely interested in proving to everyone here how right you are and how wrong everyone that happens to disagree with you is.

I'm done with you. Don't waste your time replying to this because you won't get an answer.

 

To everyone else, my apologies for taking this a bit off-topic...but I felt this needed to be said for everyone's sake, not just mine.

A debate should always be about uncovering the truth and discovering what is correct about the subject being debated. It shouldn't be about finding out who is right...but WHAT is right.

*sigh* Good evening all...

Edited February 4, 2017 by MirageKnight
Clarification.

[kaliazane]

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

-snip-

Last time you jumped in, you straight away threw random insults at me and this seems to be continuation of that. It doesn't even seem like you have anything to add into this discussion, so please spare me whatever it is you are attempting to do right now.

3 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

That said, you honestly don't strike me as being interested in what is actually right or correct on the matter of Hema research cost and its current effect on players and clans...and its possible effect on future research and such. Rather, the impression I get is that you're solely interested in proving to everyone here how right you are and how wrong everyone else is.

Everything regarding Hema research was already said in that almost 200 pages long thread, which was locked. DE went through it and made their decision, now it's time for you to accept it and move on. All arguments were presented and they decided what would be the best for their game. They don't seem to be interested in your "right and correct", probably because it's neither of them. At certain point actual feedback ends and mindless complaining begins, but hey if you just want to vent and complain against any logic and reason then go ahead.

Now please refrain from quoting me in future, honestly I don't know why I'm even responding to someone like you.

Edited February 4, 2017 by ViS4GE

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Trust me when I tell you the concept of "being right" is costly and severs you from the concept of possibility and inclusive dialogue and debate.

There are those of us who see the merits and drawbacks on both sides and many of us have a more expansive view than an  "A or B" mentality.

Having to get in the last word and/or making it personal will simply invalidate a large part of your more relevant posts in the eyes of readers.

A step further and it will be the moderator who closes the thread who has the last word.

Stay passionate and productive and respectful so we can continue the discussion. 🙃

 

 

[kaliazane]

Trust me, I've been able to see merits and drawbacks on both sides from very beginning. I wasn't trying to get in last word, it was simple conversation with the other guy. I also wasn't making anything personal. Nobody is going to invalidate anything I said by telling me I'm not respectful, when I clearly am but respect should work both ways. If someone clearly attacks me he should and will be treated accordingly. Last post of that guy directed at me was far less intelligent, to the point that I can't even find it anymore, which means it was removed by moderator. He simply waited for any ocasion to make another one and put some effort into it just to make it stick. There is everything from fake with all due respect, to made up stuff inside, self protection of "I'm done with you, don't reply" even ending on fake appology to everyone.

We can go back to discussion as soon as he decides to stop doing that, it's not going to invalidate anything I said which was the whole point of it.

Edited February 4, 2017 by ViS4GE

[(PSN)Silverback73]

8 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Trust me, I've been able to see merits and drawbacks on both sides from very beginning. I wasn't trying to get in last word, it was simple conversation with the other guy. I also wasn't making anything personal. Nobody is going to invalidate anything I said by telling me I'm not respectful, when I clearly am but respect should work both ways. If someone clearly attacks me he should and will be treated accordingly. Last post of that guy directed at me was far less intelligent, to the point that I can't even find it anymore, which means it was removed by moderator. He simply waited for any ocasion to make another one and put some effort into it just to make it stick. There is everything from fake with all due respect, to made up stuff inside, self protection of "I'm done with you, don't reply" even ending on fake appology to everyone.

We can go back to discussion as soon as he decides to stop doing that, it's not going to invalidate anything I said which was the whole point of it.

My point is that the majority of us inherently understand this ^ without need of response.  Have confidence in that.  Continue to be topic relevant.  To summarize, you've basically said "It's my right and I'm right." 

It doesn't contribute to the discussion.  To be fair, any further response on my part doesn't either, so I've said my peace. 

Fight the good fight.  You are appreciated.

Edited February 4, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[kaliazane]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

My point is that the majority of us inherently understand this ^ without need of response.  Have confidence in that.  Continue to be topic relevant.  To summarize, you've basically said "It's my right and I'm right." 

It doesn't contribute to the discussion.  To be fair, any further response on my part doesn't either, so I've said my peace. 

Fight the good fight.  You are appreciated.

Given my experience in this and previous thread I don't believe majority of you inherently understands this, hence I will not blindly trust it. Especially considering that people in threads like this one are often full of resentment. 

I didn't say that, please don't put words in my mouth.

Now let's stop going off-topic, shall we ?

Edited February 4, 2017 by ViS4GE

[MirageKnight]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

My point is that the majority of us inherently understand this

Given the posts here, I think it's safe to say that the majority of "us" don't agree with his arguments and feel he's done little but bog down the discussion, to say the least.

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Fight the good fight. 

Which fight? His stubborn defense of a bad decision made by DE and their poor handling of the outcry from the community over that decision...or his trying to back peddle and play the poor innocent victim and attempting to paint me as a villain? On the latter point, he's pretty much backed up my assessment on him by his straw-manning my post and attacking me directly and making false accusations about my intentions.

He's entitled to his point of view like everyone else here. He also needs to be aware that there are consequences to treating people he doesn't agree with the way he has. If he's going to behave like a stubborn, arrogant, self-righteous teenager, he should expect to be treated like one.

 

On topic: With regard to the argument leveled by some people that DE is perfectly justified in not so subtly forcing us to buy the Hema with plat to avert massive grind because they need to pay their employees...that argument is flawed.

Yes, they do need to pay their employees. That's absolutely not in question. I do however take issue with this clear appeal to emotion argument - that if we don't buy the Hema or buy boosters to alleviate the grind, that DE's management won't be able to pay their employees.

This argument is fallacious for two reasons: One, it's an appeal to emotion, which is one of the most common logical fallacies encountered in debates and arguments. Two, the argument is based on a false premise - that DE is pushing us to buy the Hema because they really need the money so their employees can stay employed and thus be able to afford food, shelter, and so on.

To be blunt, DE doesn't need our money quite as badly as some would like to have us think and I can prove it. I'm no accountant there and I'm not claiming to be an expert on finances or anything, but would a company that's having a difficult time paying its employees be hosting its own conventions (renting space and gear associated with hosting cons is not cheap), attending other conventions outside Canada as attendees / panelists (which is arguably even more expensive than hosting a con yourself), and donating large sums of money to charities? Not to mention the fact that the company has arguably grown in terms of numbers of employed individuals over the last 2+ years? Those are all signs that a company is doing just fine financially and turning a decent profit. Right now, I'd reasonably argue, the company is definitely capable of meeting payroll on a regular basis if they can afford to donate profits...

On the other hand, DE stands to lose money if enough players feel like they're being treated poorly or unfairly or simply feel that the game's too much of a chore...and decide not to support the game with money anymore.

 

[Flirk2]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

To be blunt, DE doesn't need our money quite as badly as some would like to have us think

And even if they did need money that badly... Founders program worked when they did, right?

I, personally, wouldn't mind them releasing Nidus Prime Access as something similar.

Just imagine, we would get a reasonably priced, 70 mutagen samples base Hema.

And people who can support the devs and want to do it could get a shiny Hema Prime.

[KIREEK]

The only comment that i tought had some reasoning behind it was the one speaking about the things that may sound good to me but end up being fustrating for the other players because sadly there are tons of players who for some reason are in a clan with no players or no active players, they end up being very casual in the warframe gameplay aproach and those missions quickly turn into months of grinding non stop, i'm not saying they play every day, but everytime they play (like once a month) they end up working towards the goal of hema, sometimes gathering more than the 500 required (solo "clans", inactive "clans").

As i said previously it seems the issue is either with the player, the clan or with both, there are many ways to get the hema, some players quit clans (they see that the clan is nothing what they expected), others manage the clan (kick, invites), others play the game more than once a month, others maximize when they play.

But everynow and then you end up with these rare cases where the player has a solo clan, barely plays, doesn't play efficiently or near that and the player want's hema (it's the objective he has decided, ignoring other more feasible objectives) and while in those cases the user can complain about the grind because it takes a year to get hema, i would question the player itself.

Still i understood that the grind may be fustrating for some, but clearly you have to give clans a purpose to be a clan to begin with, some players do find 10 minutes per day or 30 minutes a week to much, in those cases seeking other objectives in warframe may be the way to go.

It feels like someone complaining about getting a warframe like rhino and then complaining that clearing the nodes takes to long and that the grind should be reduced, there are limits and DE isn't really in the mood to make a clan research similar to other researches where a single player in 30 minutes can gather the entire cost even on a solo clan, that sounds great but defeats the purpose of clans, they want clans to manage the players and keep them playing the game, comming online once a year and asking the warlord what researches have been done while the player was gone is the 1st sign that the player isn't interested in warframe, so kick and invite other players.

You manage your clan the way you want, but it's clear some clans get results and others don't, i can't really force clans to do things my way, but when you seek help, you say that you play and after weeks all you can show is that you gathered 0 mutagen samples, then something isn't right.

I am also glad that the topic was cleaned up recently as there were many posts stating that X or Y opinion was invalid because X or Y player didn't have aklex or some other unrelated content

Edited February 5, 2017 by KIREEK

[kaliazane]

Now that this outburst of immature individual, who in past already had his intelligence lacking post removed by moderator is behind us we can go back to the topic. He might think that this was bad decision, without being able to see big picture at that, but attacking me and also other people who disagree with him obviously is not going to work. 

I have to agree that for people who are in solo or dead clans this research might be tough, but honestly it all comes down to mindset. Everyone was used to clan research being at most a nuisance, but just because it used be like that it doesn't mean that it should always be it. Personally I think that if a guy here was able to create new account and as he said, research basically everything solo without any effort....something was wrong with this system. I understand if veteran with big stash of resources could do that, but not someone completely new. Mentality of people just needs to change, as DE stated this is year of making clans great again and upcoming Shadow Of Mordor clan system will also be part of that. I actually hope it will be time consuming and challenging, because there is nothing wrong in having a goal that you can work towards. It's even better if you can do that with your clan, it promotes teamplay and cooperation.

 

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by ViS4GE

[MirageKnight]

4 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

And even if they did need money that badly... Founders program worked when they did, right?

Absolutely. Thanks for bringing that up.

If DE was in danger of having to shut down or heavily scaling back development of the game due to financial reasons, I honestly wouldn't mind them releasing something akin to another Founder's Pack to generate funding and announcing why they were doing so. I think that's a fair and understandable move - but they'd need to be transparent about it. I might even take them up on that, because I really do love Warframe, I feel it has great potential, and I care about the game's future. I just feel that the devs have become less open about the things that matter to us players and that they're not handling issues as well as they used to.

 

2 hours ago, KIREEK said:

I am also glad that the topic was cleaned up recently as there were many posts stating that X or Y opinion was invalid because X or Y player didn't have aklex or because someone was lying

Agreed. It's one thing to say "I don't agree with you and this is why" or "Your argument is invalid because you're assuming this and it isn't the case." It's another to say that a person is wrong because of something that's completely unrelated to the topic at hand. And to say someone's wrong about something because they're lying? That's a pretty hefty and antagonistic accusation.

That said, I apologize for going off on you a few pages ago. I was angry and frustrated with regard to the direction I felt the thread was heading, I took it too personally and I lost my cool.

To everyone else:

I get that this is a very sensitive topic and that some people have strong feelings (both negative and positive) about the game, the direction it's heading in, and how the devs are handling things. However, it does the discussion and ourselves a tremendous disservice when we let those feelings get the better of us and we start attacking each other over something that in the grand scheme of things is somewhat trivial and not worth getting that worked up over...and we - including myself - really need to keep that in mind and try to keep things civil, respectful, and focused.

[John89brensen]

7 hours ago, KIREEK said:

As i said previously it seems the issue is either with the player, the clan or with both

So Hema is the players fault? Is that what you are saying? Not DE for raising research costs for the Bio Lab by 1000% nor claiming that "it rains mutagen on derelict"? Or even refusing to consider making MS a drop for the infested faction, be it on Eris, Derelict, or wherever they are?

Let me get back to the "derelict ms rain", which of course it requires a meta squad, because you wont got farming to ODD with 4 Rhinos if you want to get a decent amount of MS. Isnt it ironic that DE sends players to a mindless grind with meta squads, after all they did in the past to dismantle meta farming? Because if meta squads are no longer a problem, lets remove LoS from Excalibur or Mirage, lets bring back Draco, and revert any other rework/nerf.

You are placing to much of the responsibility on the player, and none on the developer.

Farming in games tends to give dimishing returns. You'll end up farming more time than playing the game. Now this wouldnt be that much of a problem if the item you are farming for is worth your time, but its not, its just one of the resources needed to research, not craft, a weapon.

Edited February 5, 2017 by John89brensen

[(PSN)shadowraith_666]

all this focus on the mutagen samples (5000-500,000) and yet no complaints about

50-5000 neurodes (depending on clan tier)

10,000-1,000,000 plastids

45,000-4,500,000 nano spores

just for the research alone plus 5 mutagen mass (needed to build the weapon) which is an extra 50 mutagen samples and a forma.  This is assuming that the clan has researched the mutagen mass pre-requisite

[plexus_brachialis]

35 minutes ago, (PS4)shadowwraith_666 said:

all this focus on the mutagen samples (5000-500,000) and yet no complaints about

50-5000 neurodes (depending on clan tier)

10,000-1,000,000 plastids

45,000-4,500,000 nano spores

just for the research alone plus 5 mutagen mass (needed to build the weapon) which is an extra 50 mutagen samples and a forma.  This is assuming that the clan has researched the mutagen mass pre-requisite

well you can get all your neurodes and spores while farming samples you know. 3 birds with one hardcore setup. and just go farm some more plastids elsewhere, you little casual (or do they also drop in derelict? im not sure) FARM. just FARM. don't even think about being casual, ever, because if you've been casual all these years you've been doing it all wrong. 

jokes aside, i think no one is complaining about neurodes because we have 1)plenty places to get them 2)plenty incentives to get them (used for weapons, frames, potatoes, forma crafting) 

by the time you start hema research, you've probably played game long enough to fund at least half the neurode cost yourself. 

and spores? where DON'T they drop. even casualest of casual should have plenty. 

[Flirk2]

7 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Personally I think that if a guy here was able to create new account and as he said, research basically everything solo without any effort....something was wrong with this system.

As I was that guy... No there was no problem with the system. Why do I think so? It was consistent. Prices were consistent. Time walls were consistent. Grind was present, but not overwhelming. I was actually thinking of bringing up that a new clan needs way, way too much to research, and the research time and costs for the old research should be lowered, or an alternate route of unlocking older research should be implemented. Just so that new players could catch up.

Then Hema happened.

For some reason, there are people who talk about effort or lack of it like it's not a game, but some form of punishment. I never will understand why should I ''work hard'' to obtain something in the game. I can understand the concept of ''friction'' devs talked about. But there is a difference between friction of needing an argon crystal or two or even a Nitain (though more then 1 of those is unreasonable for alertium, IMO) and nailing something down to the derelict tile with 5000 mutagen samples.

7 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

I have to agree that for people who are in solo or dead clans this research might be tough, but honestly it all comes down to mindset.

Yes. And why exactly is your mindset so much better than that of an overwhelming majority of players? 70 hours of total average play time hint to it rather strongly that you are not the norm... Why do you think that devs should base the prices on the amounts of resources generated over years of playing the game every day?

I think the answer is rather obvious. DE has the same problem with their ''mindset'' that you, @ViS4GE and @KIREEK demonstrate. You are totally disconnected from new player experience. You don't seem to know what life without boosters feels like. You are not basing your expectations on a solo player that doesn't spend money on the game.

And while you can argue that ''they need money'', and you will even be right to some extent... There is a simple fact that this game is free to play. And quite a lot of people who are faced with the need to spend money in such a game to avoid tens of hours of mindless grind for one item will not stay long enough to actually spend some.

''Get boosters and get everything 2 to 4 times sooner'' is quite a different message from ''Get boosters, find a team and spend only 8 hour in Derelict, or do Derelicts ad nauseum''.

And really, this is getting old. Every time I see the same ''it's your mindset that is a problem. Work harder'' argument that is quite weak in the face of ''even an hour in the Derelict is too much boredom, let alone 8 hours''. Every time the ''kick inactive players'' when it's the very thing that people who argue against Hema costs try to avoid. It's not a solution, it's the problem!

I'm really tired of pointing out the same things again and again. I think I'll continue this discussion when you find some new arguments for it.

 

48 minutes ago, (PS4)shadowwraith_666 said:

all this focus on the mutagen samples (5000-500,000) and yet no complaints about

There was a post with actual coefficients for every resource in Hema research costs.

Mutagen samples was the biggest offender by far.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Flirk2

[Doc-Orange]

Normally I spend much time in Warframe on Sundays playing Warframe. Today the plan was to use the double affinity weekend to forma some stuff. I sat in front of the screen and had a real reluctance against playing Warframe because of the Hema theme. In former times I loved DE and the game but now there is only frustration left because of the behavior of DE.

I think DE underestimates the influence of general sympathy for a game on playing time. I had enough to do, have objectives left but no sympathy - so I personally play much less.

The reason is not the Hema itself. I have lots of platinum and it would be easy to buy. Its the way DE handles this issue with simply ignoring it (no adequate community management), locking threads, strange arguments from Steve...

Edited February 5, 2017 by Doc-Orange

[EvilChaosKnight]

2 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

-snip-

Agreed. As I always say in such cases, "I have a full-time job, I don't need another one which doesn't even pay"

There's a VERY big difference between gaining something in the game through normal play (basically have fun and earn things) and grinding for hours through some boring-@s$ repetitive process. When the electric bills you get from farming in game exceed the value of the item in question, you have a problem.

[Hypernaut1]

If DE felt this was hurting their game in any way, they would've changed it. Simple as that. Obviously, they are getting the results they want, regardless of the crying on the forums.

Many clans are out there earning Hema despite what these post tell you. DE is pleased. I have put some time in derilict survival and defense. That's EXACTLY what DE wanted. I have organised times for my ghost clan to farm together and add to research. Thats EXACTLY what DE wanted. In recruit chat, people are requesting groups for derilict play... that's exactly what DE wanted. Some of you just need to come to grips with the fact that DE was right and it did promote clan and derilict play, and it didn't cause a mass exodus of gamers. 

You have your anecdotal "evidence" of clans that can't complete it, DE has facts and hard data. 

[Kawalorn]

1 minute ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If DE felt this was hurting their game in any way, they would've changed it. Simple as that. Obviously, they are getting the results they want, regardless of the crying on the forums.

Many clans are out there earning Hema despite what these post tell you. DE is pleased. I have put some time in derilict survival and defense. That's EXACTLY what DE wanted. I have organised times for my ghost clan to farm together and add to research. Thats EXACTLY what DE wanted. In recruit chat, people are requesting groups for derilict play... that's exactly what DE wanted. Some of you just need to come to grips with the fact that DE was right and it did promote clan and derilict play, and it didn't cause a mass exodus of gamers. 

You have your anecdotal "evidence" of clans that can't complete it, DE has facts and hard data. 

Or maybe what they wanted and got was more platinum sells, hm?

Remember that this was the only weapon that was as much bought as researched.

Oh and I bet that the plague of payed clan membership and temporary clans just for cheaper hema research was also what DE wanted and succeded at?

[Flirk2]

Oh, I got somewhat new arguments? Well, let's address them then.

2 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

If DE felt this was hurting their game in any way, they would've changed it.

True. What you don't seem to take into account is there are short term consequences and long term ones.

Short term, they have more Hema bought than crafted.

Long term? There were quite a lot of players who didn't like this whole mess with a virulent disease, Index infested quest and 5k mutagen samples on top.

Some people will leave the game and spread the word.

Problem with those long term consequences is that they are not apparent from the data day one.

And when they become apparent there is only so much that could be done to a damaged public image you created with statements like ''few runs with Nekros'' and ''raining mutagen in Derelict''.

8 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

DE has facts and hard data. 

Which they don't show us, for some reason.

Ever wonder why? Why were there some charts in that first devstream of the year, but not a single number on Hema issue? How many clans completed the research and how fast, for example?

There could be a lot of reasons for them to not correct the obvious mistake that Hema was. But I'm sure ''facts and hard data'' have no place in those reasons.