HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[Xzorn]

8 hours ago, Maziani said:

Hi. We did this, and I now feel like I have the right to say-- this is excessive and needs to be reviewed.

Hehe. That original post was almost 2 months old.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

2 hours ago, Nezha_Rose said:

I feel like DE won this one.

Plus +1

[Ditto132]

9 hours ago, (PS4)big_eviljak said:

I gabe you a plus one. I agree, bringing the cost down isn't unreasonable... What's unreasonable is all crying and whining. 

DE said they arent goin to lower the cost. So complaining isnt goin to fix anything. Farm for the samples, join a ghost clan, or pay the plat. Problem solved.

8 hours ago, Aratir said:

We should swallow it and the next one too that comes our way, i know they said that they will not make another mistake like this one but oops '10.000 orokin cell cost riffle research next'. So be a good slave and bow your head as the crowd says :D

Previously, I am being polite by saying things like:
"Those are not solutions but bypasses and exploits, they doesn't fix the issue at all"

But I had enough! Going to let some steam off. 

I been holding this back for months... wanting to respond to statements of such forms:
"Buy booster, get meta squad, go farm. Problem solved"
"Farm primes, sell for plat, buy with plat. Problem solved"
"Reduce clan size. go join other clans. invite more members. Problem solved"

with examples such as:
"No money to pay for your ever increasing rent? Rent will not be reduced. Go be a prostitute. Problem solved"
"Taxes have increased? No point complaining. Go take up another job and work till you drop dead. Problem solved"
"Ducat values reduced? DE not going to honour your Ducats, don't complaining. Go farm more Ducats by farming more Relics to crack open. Problem solved" 

7 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

DE is 100% constructive to their game? Mag was destroyed so they aren't that constructive?  Isn't this thread about how destructive hema is? Did I forget the fact that DE is always the one who implement things not players who complained? 

Yup. See how many Clans got "destructed" due to this issue.

[Ditto132]

14 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

So you made assumption that game is not doing well based on nothing and then made some unrelated Trump/Life comparisons to reinforce it.

I used to play on many private servers of different games, where every single player had their own vision of what things should look like and saw many of them crash and burn trying to please everyone. As I always said game developer should listen to community, but should never be controlled by community. Idea of feedback is to give DE your thoughts and ideas to consider, then they make their own decision how to proceed based on hard data, experience and probably other things we both are not aware of.

Your mentor was right, I should probably stop trying. 

#IgnisWraithHype

I agree that game developer should listen to the community but should never be controlled by the community. This is what feedback is for.
If DE still insist on their stand, they have to put in more effort in explaining and convincing the players about it. Not just outright ignoring it, leaving so many players pissed.
They have created this issue, their mistake, they are responsible for diffusing all these displeasure that players are having.

As I said before, if you still think that my analogues are unrelated, too bad for you.
Also, if Warframe is doing well enough, there are no reasons for "mistakes" that are not rectified and making them seems like cash-grabs to sustain the game.
See steamchart, forums and other sources...

8 hours ago, notlamprey said:

Disagree.

"Complaining" has fixed many things, both in Warframe and in the wider world.

This thread is partly an attempt to convince DE to come back to the table and revisit this series of unfortunate decisions. If we can do it politely, like mature people who recognize the necessity of acknowledging stuff we don't like from time to time, then everyone can win here.

If DE continue to refuse further participation in this discussion, it will be bad for them. For my part, I'd just like for them to recognize that and stop doing things that lead to negative consequences for everybody.

Even failing every other option, we still have the capability to make them so thoroughly sick of this mess and of hearing about it that they don't want to do anything like this for a long time (hopefully ever). This is still a bad outcome, because there's a lot of needless bad feeling all around, but it's still preferable to what will happen if we don't attempt to steer them off this course.

Their "mistakes", their responsibility to diffuse and rectify the issues.
Most of us have been polite and patient enough.
Otherwise, I would be spamming "Still no fixes for Mutagen Samples..." or something along that line for the past few DevStreams, Hotfixes and Patches.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

12 hours ago, plexus_brachialis said:

Why was viver not okay, e gate not okay, draco not okay? 'it's not playing the game! you just go afk and leech xp and loot!' but sitting in derelict for one weapon somehow is fine? not funny. 

 

U hit the point. I'll continue with Hieracon, Akkad, Bere. U know what all this nodes, which majority of playerbase play thanks to Bad rule #4: We call Greed and Personal Profit Efficiency here? There are no Mutagen Samples, well except poor Drop on Eris. I'm 100% sure that u r clever enough to discover for yourself why DE choose MS and not a Detonite Ampules or Fieldron Samples. I think it's time to stop for a while and ask yourself: Is it really DE or we just play this game wrong way?

Edited February 25, 2017 by (PS4)Onder6099

[Flirk2]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Is it really DE or we just play this game wrong way?

Wow. So, the ''loot cave stomping'' that was given as an example in the post you quoted, somehow, is totally in-line with ''take a meta farming squad, 2 boosters, and go sit in the ODD for hours (2 hours at minimum)''?

K.

We all play the game wrong.

Shame DE said ''we don't want you to sit in one tile set'' before nuking the void, then said ''It's raining mutagen in Derelict, go there''.

I think when DE finally makes up it's collective mind and releases an article about how the game should be played, we'll get to it right away.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

24 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

Wow. So, the ''loot cave stomping'' that was given as an example in the post you quoted, somehow, is totally in-line with ''take a meta farming squad, 2 boosters, and go sit in the ODD for hours (2 hours at minimum)''?

K.

We all play the game wrong.

Shame DE said ''we don't want you to sit in one tile set'' before nuking the void, then said ''It's raining mutagen in Derelict, go there''.

I think when DE finally makes up it's collective mind and releases an article about how the game should be played, we'll get to it right away.

It was already to late when Hema was released and hit us unprepared, DE probably, just let us to know that not only Plat and MR, but farming resources is also part of the game. 

Edit: I can bet that nobody will have problem when Ember p bp will be added back to ODD

Edited February 25, 2017 by (PS4)Onder6099

[plexus_brachialis]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

U hit the point. I'll continue with Hieracon, Akkad, Bere. U know what all this nodes, which majority of playerbase play thanks to Bad rule #4: We call Greed and Personal Profit Efficiency here? There are no Mutagen Samples, well except poor Drop on Eris. I'm 100% sure that u r clever enough to discover for yourself why DE choose MS and not a Detonite Ampules or Fieldron Samples. I think it's time to stop for a while and ask yourself: Is it really DE or we just play this game wrong way?

i know why DE chose MS and not detonite or fieldron. they deliberately went after the thing we have least of (because it drops in only 2 places; eris with it bad drop chance, derelict which has no real incentive to go there after void was nuked. any derelict exclusive stuff you can better farm in quick missions, no need to sit ODD/ODS for ages to scan cats and do vaults.) they don't know how to create content so instead they give us grind to give illusion of content and give sorry excuses for all the mess.

if they really wanted to make clans great or whatever, they should've done something like color pigments system. or give something that justifies the cost. like new fancy ship. if we were farming for new liset, it'd at least make ~some sense to have astronomical costs. new liset would mostly just be cosmetic, not MR fodder or lock for future research, hopefully. i don't think people would riot over high grinding cost for cosmetics. cosmetics are supposed to be pay to have content anyway.

but no, i guess it's us players that are doing things wrong

[Doc-Orange]

The decision of DE to

44 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

i know why DE chose MS and not detonite or fieldron. they deliberately went after the thing we have least of (because it drops in only 2 places; eris with it bad drop chance,[...]

The decision of "whatever" was purely bad game design!

A simple math is enough to calculate the insane amount of grind. If they want to test the willingness to grind for a item they should choose a better one. The pure bordedom of the grind on 2 places takes another negative point. So the only one left is that they want to test the willingness to pay money (Pay2Win) they also should take a better one.

So whatever objective they had. Its hard to reach with their special approach. This is what I mean with bad game design. The following behavior of DE, strange "reasons" and lack of communication only left burned ground.

[Ta10S]

To stay people civil, adding fuel to the fire should be stopped first.

DE have already known what to do, haven't they?

[Doc-Orange]

16 minutes ago, Ta10S said:

To stay people civil, adding fuel to the fire should be stopped first.

DE have already known what to do, haven't they?

The only possibility to give DE our opinion is to write the opinion in an open way - of course without personal insulting. DE, as a company, has to face positive and negative critics.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Doc-Orange

[Ta10S]

23 minutes ago, Doc-Orange said:

The only possibility to give DE our opinion is to write the opinion in an open way - of course without personal insulting. DE, as a company, has to face positive and negative critics.

I don't know whether "Still no fix for Mutagen Samples.."  is  personal insult because English is not my mother language, but some people may think that spamming.  It's hard for me to give them good criticism, but I'll do my best.

[Doc-Orange]

I'm

22 minutes ago, Ta10S said:

I don't know whether "Still no fix for Mutagen Samples.."  is  personal insult because English is not my mother language, but some people may think that spamming.  It's hard for me to give them good criticism, but I'll do my best.

English is not my native language, too. But why should "Still no fix for Mutagen Samples.." a personal insult. A personal insult is something like "Donald Duck is an idiot". This is personal and insulting. Critics on features or missing bugs in normal (not bad) language are normal.

This thread is alive after a long time and this should remind DE that the mutagen problem is still not solved. Its their game, they can try to ignore this but I personally play a lot less since this issue and spent no money. Its not because of this single issue, I could easily buy this weapon, its because of the start of soft paywalls and the general negative behavior of DE in this case. For me personally they went from the light side a step to the dark side ;)

[Siekier]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

I think it's time to stop for a while and ask yourself: Is it really DE or we just play this game wrong way?

Oh hey, I remember you.

You're that guy that said we shouldn't complain about bugs associated with Kuva Siphons that pretty much made it impossible to finish them (such as Kuva clouds spawning right next to the siphon or in the walls etc) and we should just enjoy the game instead.

 

Same as before, your "argument" makes no sense whatsoever. Plexus did a great job explaining why.

[Flirk2]

38 minutes ago, Ta10S said:

but some people may think that spamming.

Well, the problem still there. It was not fixed in any way shape or form. Why would we not remind of it any chance we got? It's still a problem, if you see a Hema comment in the hotfix notes getting more upvotes than the original post with those update notes...

It's like this trinity specter codex entry:

You know it's wrong. Devs know it's wrong. It's like this from about the time SotR update hit.

But it's still there. No fix to it. Was it intended? I don't think so.

Problem with Hema is, while it's an obvious problem to some people, other people, DE included, refuse to see it as a problem. No matter the arguments, facts and calculations.

I lost hope for it ever changing. But I won't agree that it's right, fine and fair, placing costs in assumption that a clan should be full and fully active, and then setting it to 500 per person... when the whole previous research in a solo ghost clan took less.

[Maziani]

15 hours ago, Xzorn said:

Hehe. That original post was almost 2 months old.

It took two months to farm the mutagen samples. Hence why I feel it is excessive.

And frankly, it would have taken longer if I and a couple of clan mates hadn't progressed to Despros/Pilfroid/Banshonance/Speva party formation with lucky daily/sortie rewards resulting in higher drop chance and increased drop rewards.

After getting that, it still took ~ 3 weeks of semi dedicated farming whenever someone would get the affinity boosts.

And we're a Ghost clan-- so only 5k as a target.

 

A "two month grind" isn't content. Sure, the Hema is content, but 2+ month grind isn't content, nor is it reasonable gating for the reward that the Hema represents.

[.Dictator.]

You know, in the time people spent complaining about it, you probably could have ALREADY farmed the weapon, crafted and formaed. Just saying

[Flirk2]

39 minutes ago, DictatorKt07 said:

You know, in the time people spent complaining about it, you probably could have ALREADY farmed the weapon, crafted and formaed. Just saying

You know, if you look back a couple of pages, you'll see that most of the people who complain about Hema research costs already have it researched, built and leveled.

I don't think there are a lot of people who would forma that piece of ... equipment.

Why is the thread still alive then, you may ask.

Well, that's simple.

Because Hema cost is still insane. And the fact that there are no plans to lower it to sane level confirms that such actions will take place again.

How would you like to get something that costs 5 million nano spores?

Or 30 million credits?

It's raining credits and nano spores all over the origin system, after all...

 

P. S. To reiterate,

No, ''you could farm it by now if you farmed instead of complaining'' is not a valid argument in a discussion about how something costs 77 times more than it should.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Flirk2

[Liminal]

38 minutes ago, DictatorKt07 said:

You know, in the time people spent complaining about it, you probably could have ALREADY farmed the weapon, crafted and formaed. Just saying

Yes, but you are missing the point.

[dashashou]

3 hours ago, Maziani said:

It took two months to farm the mutagen samples. Hence why I feel it is excessive.

And frankly, it would have taken longer if I and a couple of clan mates hadn't progressed to Despros/Pilfroid/Banshonance/Speva party formation with lucky daily/sortie rewards resulting in higher drop chance and increased drop rewards.

After getting that, it still took ~ 3 weeks of semi dedicated farming whenever someone would get the affinity boosts.

And we're a Ghost clan-- so only 5k as a target.

 

A "two month grind" isn't content. Sure, the Hema is content, but 2+ month grind isn't content, nor is it reasonable gating for the reward that the Hema represents.

well glad i took the 2 months off ( other than log in ) i'm taking to long perspective   . the passion seems to have gone  , I'm really waiting for the new thing that both the Dev team and  us tenno can get excited about .  Just look at arch-wing which had been broke for OVER A YEAR!  I'm thinking that the Hema might be like that ; it being a year+  problem  .

I'm wondering if  it 'll be fixed before i just stop logging into the game . 

[Maziani]

2 hours ago, DictatorKt07 said:

You know, in the time people spent complaining about it, you probably could have ALREADY farmed the weapon, crafted and formaed. Just saying

I did. That's what I'm complaining about.

 

39 minutes ago, Ravel7 said:

I'm wondering if  it 'll be fixed before i just stop logging into the game . 

I did that with another game recently. I totally get the sentiment.

[Eldnacpeek]

On 2/24/2017 at 6:08 PM, Nezha_Rose said:

I feel like DE won this one.

 

If winning is standing their ground, sure. If winning is losing the trust of many players and causing them to have little to no faith in DE's future decisions, specifically clan related, then no.

Edited February 26, 2017 by LazerSkink

[Nezha_Rose]

17 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

If winning is losing the trust of many players and causing them to have little to no faith in DE's future decisions, specifically clan related, then no.

Yet it feels like they dont care anymore.

Its... Saddening. 

[Xzorn]

7 hours ago, Maziani said:

A "two month grind" isn't content. Sure, the Hema is content, but 2+ month grind isn't content, nor is it reasonable gating for the reward that the Hema represents.

 

I've never really considered items as content.  They're objects within content.

Inherently when you add new content a new item becomes new content but if you only add an item; is it still new content or simply a new object?

Either way I have  0 / 15000 in my research and will continue to make no effort at all.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

19 hours ago, plexus_brachialis said:

i know why DE chose MS and not detonite or fieldron. they deliberately went after the thing we have least of (because it drops in only 2 places; eris with it bad drop chance, derelict which has no real incentive to go there after void was nuked. any derelict exclusive stuff you can better farm in quick missions, no need to sit ODD/ODS for ages to scan cats and do vaults.) they don't know how to create content so instead they give us grind to give illusion of content and give sorry excuses for all the mess.

I have different point of view. It's more about the past then present. But it's just my point of view and speculation which are completely different probably thanks to my age. I can cut WF player base into half where Draco is border, majority pre-Draco players, as me, btw I'm still sitting on 15k MS, because my clanmate, probably 1 of the best if not the best player of WF, covered the research by himself, speaking about Shadow clan, were leveling in ODD so they had no problem with Hema research while after Draco appeared most players started to lvl there, they don't have problem to donate Detonite Ampules but MS, same with Hieracon and Fieldron Samples, so this is, imho something like warning finger and if we didn't took a lesson there could be easily another 80+ pages about Polymer Bundles, Tellurium, Oxium. 

This is a game and games are for relax, unfortunately a decent amount of players probably don't understand that and try to implement bad habits from our hectic like: I want it all and I want it now or my rule #4, which causes that most players are rushing content, nvm that they know about how this or that mechanics work, farm for resources only when it's necessary because they run only few nodes. Rush, imho, have a decent impact to this game, we are pushing DE to make new content every week, which cause not every time is it polished. But they still have a time to polish this and that, unfortunately only minority cares because rule #4. Hand on heart, who was on Earth just to check how beautiful she looks now?