Nidus really needs to get reworked

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

You don't even play Nidus enough to know if nulls eat Nidus stacks? How many forma have you put into your Nidus before claiming he's OP then? You should actually try playing a frame a lot and learning how it plays before talking about how it's OP. 

To answer your question: No, nulls do not inhibit his passive or eat his stacks. However you can't get more stacks if nulls are in play, and nulls cripple all warframes, so this is not some silver bullet for your argument. 

so this is back to "not having enough stacks" argument all over again. at this point all we can do is agree to disagree cus its really getting pointless. i do play him btw, but the way you sounded he actually lost his stacks from him, and i didnt run into a nullifier with him since last hotfix. stuff can change.

[NeoRetro10K]

Is this a joke? He's only unkillable if he has time to work for it. You have to work for it. To be honest, he kinda starts out pretty lackluster, but if you can keep him alive by being careful until he's built himself up (actually pretty tough to do in high-level missions), then your careful play should be rewarded.

Given that he fits this description currently, I'd say he's balanced. He's tough to get started, but it's worth it if you can.

Edited January 6, 2017 by NeoRetro10K

[Shockwave-]

3 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

Reworked? Why? His abilites scale well into endgame, has good health. Really good abilities, why rework him? 

Because he does everything well. High damage frames usually don't have high survivability and CC, he's got it all, and he scales. The argument is if he is the only frame that has it all and scales, then all other frames are weaker... ergo he is OP. He might do everything you want him to do but no frame should.

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, achromos said:

So, if you want to play technicalities with me, fine.

 

Nyx.  Chaos.

 

larva is better than chaos since it also makes it easier to kill those that are cc'd.  and its not "technicality" to put words in my mouth as if i said "larva is the best cc in game"

[OfPowerOfWant]

Anti-Nerf

Anti-Infested

Skip a nerf, calling for a death hammer

Death To All Infested

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, NeoRetro10K said:

Is this a joke? He's only unkillable if he has time to work for it. You have to work for it. To be honest, he kinda starts out pretty lackluster, but if you can keep him alive by being careful until he's built himself up (actually pretty tough to do in high-level missions), then your careful play should be rewarded.

Given that he fits this description currently, I'd say he's balanced. He's tough to get started, but it's worth it if you can.

pressing 2 and 1 and then just afking after getting 3 stacks isnt "working for it".

[Doc-Orange]

1 minute ago, Shockwave- said:

Because he does everything well. High damage frames usually don't have high survivability and CC, he's got it all, and he scales. The argument is if he is the only frame that has it all and scales, then all other frames are weaker... ergo he is OP. He might do everything you want him to do but no frame should.

He's only OP in low to medium missions. Play endgame and you'll see his limits soon. For full potential you have to stack his power. Again, try this in endgame!

This is PvE! Is someone hurt???? Nidos is for me the most fun ´Warframe since a long time.

[Shockwave-]

8 minutes ago, Darkmatt3r said:

Not everyday a frame gets his own room & lore around it. Deal with it . in pubs u will always have some kind of problem with others having fun that does not mean nerf the thing they are having fun with. 
 

Some players had fun with ash and old saryn too, this argument didn't' work for them. Ember and Synoid mirages will then have your support when people want to nerf them as well right? By your argument you shouldn't nerf anything people are having fun with.

[NeoRetro10K]

1 minute ago, Shockwave- said:

Because he does everything well. High damage frames usually don't have high survivability and CC, he's got it all, and he scales. The argument is if he is the only frame that has it all and scales, then all other frames are weaker... ergo he is OP. He might do everything you want him to do but no frame should.

Here's the thing. He can do the objective, and survive doing it. That's the end goal, and both he and other Warframes can do that if properly modded. My Nyx can last a long time too, and complete most (not all) objectives efficiently. So can my Loki. Nidus is also versatile, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's not like he's good at every mission type either. For example, Exterminate, Capture, and Spy can be done better by other Frames.

[Dreddeth]

 

3 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

larva is better than chaos since it also makes it easier to kill those that are cc'd.  and its not "technicality" to put words in my mouth as if i said "larva is the best cc in game"

Chaos makes it so easy to kill stuff that they do it for you once the stun animation ends.

Facetious comments aside, at this point we know without a doubt that you're being hyperbolic at the very least, and outright dishonest at worst. Don't be surprised if nobody cares about what you have to say any more.

[Darkmatt3r]

1 minute ago, Shockwave- said:

Some players had fun with ash and old saryn too, this argument didn't' work for them. Ember and Synoid mirages will then have your support when people want to nerf them as well right? By your argument you shouldn't nerf anything people are having fun with.

Comparing Nidus with old saryn & ash ? u must be joking . I hated those 2 but nidus is not the what ash & saryn used to be . it takes effort to get those stacks & if you are not rewarded after getting those stacks then whats the point ? forget even that . nidus actually has to aim & press 1 countless times to get those stacks. old ash & saryn was just press 4 & chill , see everything die. 

[Guest]

Reworked?  Nerfed?  You keep using those words.  I do not think they mean what you think they mean. 

Nidus is one of the best designed frames YET.  There are trade-offs in his builds, there are trade-offs in his skills, there are great synergies between his own skills as well as with other frames.  There are great obstructions between his skills and other frames.  There are trade-offs between how you build him and how he'll perform on different maps.  He's far from a miragulor social cancer and doesn't excel at everything like the OP claims.  It's easy to step on his toes and mess up his damage and stack building.  It's easy to help it along and benefit from it yourself as another frame.  I don't know how the OP is building nidus, but I've never had 100 stacks in 3 minutes.  Most of the time, it takes me closer to 15-20 minutes to get to 100 stacks, but by then I'm hitting like a truck.  On the down side, I also go through energy plates like they're tic-tacs when using nidus, even once I'm on a roll with zenurik.  He's very crappy with low stacks, and his strength requires skillful play to develop over the course of a mission. 

Try some nightmare missions on Sedna or Kuva Fortress with him, tell me you think he's OP...

[Angrados]

28 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

yeah except like, you know, take out that tech while moving to cover? yeah i know, amazing right? you can do both at the same time like you should be doing.

iirc nullfier didnt erase your stacks. if it does you can disregard every single comment i have made. how nidus survives those is through his passive, nothing else. if nullies also block his passive then same, disregard every single comment, cus i dont think passives get blocked by nullies.

are you seriously implying that its not a fact that people dont cheese in warframe? do you actually play the game if i may ask?

No, what I am saying is that you cannot seriously expect to convince people using an argument that uses nothing but generalizations without backing to support it, backing you can ACTUALLY POINT TO and say, "here's why what I am saying is valid". Using general statements presents a weak argument, because I can argue the exact opposite. I can tell you for a fact that people do cheese in Warframe. However, I can just as easily say that there are people who don't cheese. Thus, your statement "people do not cheese in warframe" is inaccurate. And because you have no evidence to assert your claim, I can just as easily dismiss it, as you will no doubt dismiss mine since I didn't provide any evidence of my own.

Compound on that your usage of leading questions, ad hominem attacks, and general belligerence, and I get the feeling that you know you have nothing to stand on and are merely trying to screw with everyone else. In other words, I'm going to state what the Cpl said in slightly different terms: You're full of hot air, and if not I want physical, actual evidence to back up your claims that Nidus is somehow a god frame that does the job of any other frame equally well if not better. I want statistics, I want recordings, whatever it takes for you to actually back up your frigging claim rather than spout it and combine that with verbal abuse aimed to silence critics. What you are doing is not debating, but brow-beating, and it's the sort of crap that I won't stand for.

[Angrados]

12 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

Reworked?  Nerfed?  You keep using those words.  I do not think they mean what you think they mean. 

Nidus is one of the best designed frames YET.  There are trade-offs in his builds, there are trade-offs in his skills, there are great synergies between his own skills as well as with other frames.  There are great obstructions between his skills and other frames.  There are trade-offs between how you build him and how he'll perform on different maps.  He's far from a miragulor social cancer and doesn't excel at everything like the OP claims.  It's easy to step on his toes and mess up his damage and stack building.  It's easy to help it along and benefit from it yourself as another frame.  I don't know how the OP is building nidus, but I've never had 100 stacks in 3 minutes.  Most of the time, it takes me closer to 15-20 minutes to get to 100 stacks, but by then I'm hitting like a truck.  On the down side, I also go through energy plates like they're tic-tacs when using nidus, even once I'm on a roll with zenurik.  He's very crappy with low stacks, and his strength requires skillful play to develop over the course of a mission. 

Try some nightmare missions on Sedna or Kuva Fortress with him, tell me you think he's OP...

Or Voydanoi for that matter. I can tell you for a fact I died 5 times when I tried to take him there with the reinforcements modifier. It took a great deal of hopping around and kiting to get him to a point where I was actually able to score kills on any of the executioners with him, and even at 50-60 stacks I was getting one shot and having difficulty. 

[Darkmoone1]

Man rework is such a buzzword in this community. The frames been out for not even a month and you want a rework? How about asking for changes or tweaks first? 

[Knight_Ex]

4 minutes ago, Darkmoone1 said:

Man rework is such a buzzword in this community. The frames been out for not even a month and you want a rework? How about asking for changes or tweaks first? 

If it could be adjustments then it wouldn't be an issue, however Ive seen how DE handles "adjustments" they either turn the knob down too much or break the thing off the handle when turning it up, at least with rework they can properly test him on all situations, seriously they either rushed him without proper playtesting or the QA team doesn't know how to properly destructive test his abilities.  Everything that he does could have been easily tested with debug spawns and certain level parameters, people keep saying that this is how all frames should be and I continue to say no, you want to have some power trip fantasy go play grand theft auto or something that you can mod to your god imaginative standards, me on the otherhand I want a challenge, I want frames that you actually need skill to use, not saying we don't already have them but I had high hopes for Nidus considering DE ripped off the Furian warframe idea someone had, I shudder to think how bard frame will turn out.

[Angrados]

 

On 1/6/2017 at 6:51 PM, Knight_Ex said:

If it could be adjustments then it wouldn't be an issue, however Ive seen how DE handles "adjustments" they either turn the knob down too much or break the thing off the handle when turning it up, at least with rework they can properly test him on all situations, seriously they either rushed him without proper playtesting or the QA team doesn't know how to properly destructive test his abilities.  Everything that he does could have been easily tested with debug spawns and certain level parameters, people keep saying that this is how all frames should be and I continue to say no, you want to have some power trip fantasy go play grand theft auto or something that you can mod to your god imaginative standards, me on the otherhand I want a challenge, I want frames that you actually need skill to use, not saying we don't already have them but I had high hopes for Nidus considering DE ripped off the Furian warframe idea someone had, I shudder to think how bard frame will turn out.

See, I can't bring myself to agree. He's not that powerful outside of Survival and Defense, especially in cases where troop numbers are low and difficulty is high. He can be outpaced by a Soma, for Chrissakes--and the Soma remains more viable in the situation I outlined than Nidus is. Also, I would say that it takes effort and skill to use Nidus, since it is a little more than just "Press 4 and leave" (Looking at you, Ember/Pre-rework Ash). He's interactive, fun, and they did a really good job with him. We're not gonna agree on this, that much is clear, but I don't mind so long as we can disagree amicably. I really, really hope that he doesn't get reworked anytime soon--should the meta change in such a way that he becomes too weak or something breaks with him, then we can talk rework. He's been out for about two weeks, though, so give him a chance before you start begging for him to get reworked because his skillset doesn't work/isn't interactive/doesn't suit your tastes as a player/what have you.

Actually, if I may make a suggestion, what would your idea for a rework on him to be? What would a rebalance look like that you would be pleased with? I imagine that you have something in mind that you want, as otherwise this would be kind of a pointless exercise. What do you think would be best for a "reworked" Nidus?

Edited January 10, 2017 by [DE]Danielle
Removed hidden quote

[Fast_98]

Damn where a moderator when you need one lol.

[Zeclem]

1 hour ago, Angrados said:

Ad hominem attack, again. You really don't understand what the term means, I see.

Perhaps, if you're hearing resounding feedback pointing to the contrary, you should reevaluate your own opinion, maybe even by building the frame and trying it out for yourself before passing judgement. You're clearly quite bitter about the response you've received thus far, though, so I'll leave you alone for the moment.

this is not politics. if i see something wrong, i'll say it. just because majority thinks different doesnt make them right, especially when the said majority is not majority in actual game nor when their most used argument is "other ones need to be buffed". if you show me a single comment thats posted before my initial comment that speaks against a nerf of nidus and doesnt say/imply that other frames need to be put on his level, i will take that back.

1 hour ago, Dreddeth said:

Suddenly it reeks of projection in here, and not the corrosive kind. Good day to you, you rabble-rousing know-nothing.

sorry im not gonna sugarcoat what i think so your feelings wont get hurt.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

5 hours ago, Knight_Ex said:

Fact of the matter being why run anything else since Nidus does most jobs perfectly, Tanking....check.....Damage....Check (With 100stacks his one can do up to 40k damage per hit and it hits multiple times), Buffing....Check.....Healing......sorta...his 4 can heal but not as effective as a trin, still if the people stay in range its unlikely they will go down.   So please someone come in here and tell me he doesn't need a rework and explain your logic behind it

The majority of his abilities seem to be oriented at teamwork, but I find it all but impossible to build my stacks in a team, because his 1st ability has a casting time, and other players don't seem to realize that it takes a fair bit of energy to cast his 2 + his 1 in succession and therefore hit the big blob of enemies with an AoE or Gas proc + punch-through weapon, forcing me to run around and get more energy. Even my charger and kavat do this to me, so I typically have to run him with carrier. And running with another Nidus is even worse, as their 2nds cancel each other. In solo, he has very good survivability, but the enemies are either too low level to help you build stacks (one-shot by 1st w/o any stacks) or deadly enough you need to use your weapons to stay alive, thus reducing the number of stacks you can get. In fact, I feel that he does WORSE with a primary and/or secondary weapon than w/o, since killing anything with something other than his 1st or 4th slows down his scaling relative to the enemy. So at lower (starchart) levels you can get 10+ stacks, but you will never trigger his passive, but at high (sortie+) levels you will have to fight to even get 10+ stacks, and if you do trigger his passive you will do less damage and take more damage because of it (though perhaps not as much as if he didn't have this passive). His passive is almost a necessity, as dying and losing ALL of your stacks would end a run at higher levels (think about when your Inaros dies after charging his 4th. Then multiply it times 10.)

Then there are power stats. Increasing your efficiency helps with your 1st and second to a point, but negative efficiency is better IF you can reliably hit 5+ enemies EVERY TIME you cast his 1st. Increased range helps make his 2nd better BUT increases the time in between casts of his 1st (since it cannot be recast if it is still spreading forward). Duration helps his 4th not be so expensive BUT hampers his 2nd, as it too cannot be recast while active. Low duration can also hurt his 2nd, however, if it is too short to be able to cast his 1st before it expires. Strength is the ONLY stat you can increase w/o hurting any part of his kit, but that is true of almost all warframes.

All together, Nidus is in a weird place due to his team-based buffs and his solo-based stack system. His 1st has high damage and good range at max, but is quickly outclassed by radial AoEs and requires his 2nd to be effective. His second suffers from lack of recastability, and needs high range or low duration to make up for it. His third needs a buff to be useful in team play, and his 4th was recently nerfed (despite the fact that many other warframe powers affect cryopods and excavators).

So to answer you question, yes, Nidus does need a rework, but not to nerf him as you have stated.

PS: If you want a rework, please outline what that would look like. Just spouting your mouth off does nothing for anyone on either side of the issue.

Edited January 7, 2017 by -AoN-CanoLathra-

[Eldnacpeek]

8 hours ago, Knight_Ex said:

Its called using your 2 to pull all surrounding enemies in, then using 1 ability, you get 5-6 stacks this way, if you have your 4th ability down thats even more stacks, provided that you can kill the enemies you gathered in a few hits, rinse and repeat.

 

Simply saying it is not enough. It would be nice to have some video or screenshot proof that you personally can gain 100 stacks in 3 minutes.

[Angrados]

16 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

this is not politics. if i see something wrong, i'll say it. just because majority thinks different doesnt make them right, especially when the said majority is not majority in actual game nor when their most used argument is "other ones need to be buffed". if you show me a single comment thats posted before my initial comment that speaks against a nerf of nidus and doesnt say/imply that other frames need to be put on his level, i will take that back.

sorry im not gonna sugarcoat what i think so your feelings wont get hurt.

The wonderful thing about logic is that it applies to all things, including, well, the subject matter at hand. If you see it as wrong, there's a difference between "I see this as wrong and here's why" and "People are so dumb for believing X and my viewpoint is superior". 

I think you just got done arguing that the majority of people use Nidus because apparently he's cheesy, and now you're appealing to the majority? Suddenly your opinion is popular? Sir, I don't think that sort of vacillation is gonna work.

Let me track down my original post... 

I've already tried to do this once and it deleted my progress, so I will merely point you to page 6 to find the following post, halfway down:

Quote

To address the issue at hand, Nidus is, in my opinion, not broken. People play him because he's fun to play, NOT because he's easy mode, NOT because he's viable in the endgame (which I personally don't think he is, given how many times I got murdered on Voydanoi by Dhurnham as Nidus), and NOT because he somehow breaks everything in the game and is ridiculously overpowered. All this thread has done is reveal the toxic meta that's formed around Survival and Defense as endless gametypes, largely due to the scaling that happens on the end of the enemies. This indignation isn't because Nidus is broken, it is because he is a novel concept--a frame that scales, much like our enemies do. We haven't really seen much in terms of scaling on our side, which is why when it comes along and works really, really well people flip out because suddenly it's not fair that the scaling occurs for us, because it clicks just a little too well. Honestly, I'm frustrated that people don't recognize what we've been handed and think it through, being more content to say "2 OP PLZ NERF" without a second thought just because the mechanic works well in gameplay. 

Now, help me out here--where did I imply that all of the other frames needed to be buffed? I said here that Nidus was unique in his mechanic, which is why a lot of people are using him. Nowhere did I say, or even imply, that other frames need to adopt his playstyle/powerset/whatever you're going for here. If that's what you read out of it... well, that's your interpretation of my words. I can't really control that, and if you really think I'm out to buff all of the other warframes because powercreep, I'm not going to be able to change your mind. 

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

5 hours ago, Knight_Ex said:

Its called using your 2 to pull all surrounding enemies in, then using 1 ability, you get 5-6 stacks this way, if you have your 4th ability down thats even more stacks, provided that you can kill the enemies you gathered in a few hits, rinse and repeat.

What tileset were you on to be able to get 5-6 stacks per larva? And what level were the enemies? Because I can only do that vs. Infested w/o Ancient Healers nearby, and then I kill them all no matter how few stacks I have, and have to wait for more to show up.

[Angrados]

4 minutes ago, LazerSkink said:

 

Simply saying it is not enough. It would be nice to have some video or screenshot proof that you personally can gain 100 stacks in 3 minutes.

It just occurred to me that in order to get 5-6 stacks, you need to have 25-30 enemies in your larva... 

Just how tightly are the enemies grouped where you're grinding, @Knight_Ex? Wherever it is, I need to pay it a visit. 

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

5 hours ago, Knight_Ex said:

I can't be the only person getting sick of seeing 2-3 nidus warframes running in every mission, lets break it down, Nidus is pretty much unkillable, he has insane amounts of damage, even if by some miracle he goes down so long as the person has 10 stacks they are auto revived, he can CC an entire room easily, gain insane amounts of damage reduction with his link, oh are those 10 bombards giving you trouble? just let me link to that corrupted ancient....there we go all better,  Fact of the matter being why run anything else since Nidus does most jobs perfectly, Tanking....check.....Damage....Check (With 100stacks his one can do up to 40k damage per hit and it hits multiple times), Buffing....Check.....Healing......sorta...his 4 can heal but not as effective as a trin, still if the people stay in range its unlikely they will go down.   So please someone come in here and tell me he doesn't need a rework and explain your logic behind it, because its obvious the QA team did barely any work on this one or he was purposely released as an OP frame,  FYI to get 100 stacks takes all but 3 minutes in some missions, his second ability followed with his first.....Id love to know the developers take on this, did rushing him involve throwing all the playtesting out the window for an end of year release?

Or he is the new frame so a lot of people are using him.  It's not really uncommon to see a ton of people using him because you'll have the people who bought him day one running around with him then you'll have the people who got him through farming running around with him a week later.