Sooo, why is the primed vault still a thing?

[Devinee]

prime vault is just useless. they should stay with prime access and sell new frames around 1 month before everyone can get it for free. this should get them enough money imho

[bl4ckhunter]

1 minute ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Then do explain, oh wise one, how they could give more relics without making the drop tables either A: go to S#&$ or 2: restrict relics to specific nodes and thus pissing people off because they now have to do spys exclusively to get the one relic they want more of. Put some thought to it now.

Restrict relics to specific nodes. Pissing people off? Even if they actually had a problem doing such a thing and we clearly know they don't, i sincerely doubt it would happen, let's not forget that during the unvaulting period the relics are restricted to specific nodes already, even broad restrictions such as making different sets of relics for defense/survival/interception/excavation would be more than enough without going into less popular gamemodes, also they could just simply make the vaulted relics drop at the end of non endless mission types that currently don't have any noteworthy reward, or make syndicates sell relic packs with different drop tables, exchange traces for relics in the almost useless orokin research lab or a thousand other places where they could put vaulted relics. The only barrier is their unwillingness, simple as that.

 

3 minutes ago, (PS4)BrutalReaper32 said:

pretty much.
also, is not like is it a bad thing that a company is trying to make money, so it's ok xD

i didn't say that but it doesn't mean that we should glorify them for design decisions that are applied entirely for their benefit. 

[Askell91]

Simple:

[Askell91]

6 minutes ago, Devinee said:

prime vault is just useless. they should stay with prime access and sell new frames around 1 month before everyone can get it for free. this should get them enough money imho

Ye and make most of the peoples butthurt becouse they get it a month later....that would not lead to a happy end. :'D

[ChuckMaverick]

4 minutes ago, bl4ckhunter said:

19 minutes ago, (PS4)BrutalReaper32 said:

pretty much.
also, is not like is it a bad thing that a company is trying to make money, so it's ok xD

i didn't say that but it doesn't mean that we should glorify them for design decisions that are applied entirely for their benefit.

DE making money isn't entirely for their benefit, it also enables them to keep developing the game we all enjoy playing.

Without the Prime Vault, the only chance DE get to monetise prime items is during their 3 months of Prime Access. So anyone else joining after that can't give money to DE for those items, no matter how much they might want to.

[Hypernaut1]

While there are so many people calling DE greedy.... Prime vault means free plat for me. I hope they keep it. It rewards me for my stockpile.

I have some sets I'm sitting on just because they're vaulted.

Before the vault, I remember Ember was considered a trash prime set. Mag is still cheap though, I don't know why.

I'm glad there is a prime vault. DE makes money, I make plat. It's a win/win for me.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Hypernaut1

[Jaysus41]

I hate the prime vault, but I guess we won't see any changes until people stop buying the vault packs (which will be never)

Or, maybe, in a few years when we start seeing feedback threads titled "70% of prime content is currently locked away" and its not hyperbole, we might see change. Maybe.

[(PSN)BrutalReaper32]

16 minutes ago, bl4ckhunter said:

Restrict relics to specific nodes. Pissing people off? Even if they actually had a problem doing such a thing and we clearly know they don't, i sincerely doubt it would happen, let's not forget that during the unvaulting period the relics are restricted to specific nodes already, even broad restrictions such as making different sets of relics for defense/survival/interception/excavation would be more than enough without going into less popular gamemodes, also they could just simply make the vaulted relics drop at the end of non endless mission types that currently don't have any noteworthy reward, or make syndicates sell relic packs with different drop tables, exchange traces for relics in the almost useless orokin research lab or a thousand other places where they could put vaulted relics. The only barrier is their unwillingness, simple as that.

 

i didn't say that but it doesn't mean that we should glorify them for design decisions that are applied entirely for their benefit. 

I know you didn't say that. 
And I'm not praising them, because if it were for us, the playerbase we would ask DE to give us vaulted prime parts for free or as reward for lotus alerts xD 
They sometimes need to make stuff that is better for the company than for the players. 
Probably in the future they could come up with another plan to get rid of vaulting, but I wouldn't be too sure about it. Maybe vaulting helps the in-game economy as much as it helps the company itself.

[bl4ckhunter]

27 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

DE making money isn't entirely for their benefit, it also enables them to keep developing the game we all enjoy playing.

Without the Prime Vault, the only chance DE get to monetise prime items is during their 3 months of Prime Access. So anyone else joining after that can't give money to DE for those items, no matter how much they might want to.

True, my point was that there's a difference between accepting the actual benefits of the prime vault and thinking that it has anything to do with the drop tables' diluition, which by the way at the time was entirely artificial and still partially is, the fact that it's simply a way for DE to make money it's not actually a problem specially since for once it's handled a lot better than other things such as the Hema cash grab for example, it's just that it grates me when people go justifying it with imaginary reasons.   

Edited January 17, 2017 by bl4ckhunter

[NeithanDiniem]

14 minutes ago, bl4ckhunter said:

Restrict relics to specific nodes. Pissing people off? Even if they actually had a problem doing such a thing and we clearly know they don't, i sincerely doubt it would happen, let's not forget that during the unvaulting period the relics are restricted to specific nodes already, even broad restrictions such as making different sets of relics for defense/survival/interception/excavation would be more than enough without going into less popular gamemodes, also they could just simply make the vaulted relics drop at the end of non endless mission types that currently don't have any noteworthy reward, or make syndicates sell relic packs with different drop tables, exchange traces for relics in the almost useless orokin research lab or a thousand other places where they could put vaulted relics. The only barrier is their unwillingness, simple as that.

Okay then, you have backtracked to post-relic system now and are now back at square one, only you have moved the farm back one level in the farming chain. Now you have to play that SPECIFIC mission, over and over, to get the relic you want. Rotation C Hell, all over again, the very thing we got the relic for to get rid of to begin with. Keys were spread thick over the nodes to make it where you could play a multitude of missions to get the relic you wanted without having to restrict yourself to playing missions you may in fact not like. Plenty of people hate spy missions, other hate endless, and still others hate exterminates. You are now suggesting that the rewards people play this game for now have a new, more intensive grind to get the chance to grind for the item you actually want. Congratulations, you have now made items intrinsically rare by putting them on undesirable nodes or poor-luck endless rotations. So items that were rare by the vault are now rare because the sheer number of relics in the game means that the odds of you getting a specific relic have dropped. You also have effectively murdered player's preferred means of gaining relics, be it by farming nodes they are accustomed to, or by syndicates by increasing the total number of rewards it can roll making getting ones you want more of a pain.

Do tell me what this solves. You kill the trade market for the vaulted items by making them all available, you make farming a mass variety of relics harder by restricting relics to specific nodes, you restrict the choice of players in their farming locations by making them farm for the relic they want on possibly undesirable nodes... all for what? A large majority of players that this would affect already have most of the items that are vaulted or are only farming the item so as to try and sell it as a set.

[StinkyPygmy]

See, everyone's saying its just about money but I'd argue its also more about the fact that relics are still just  on the very edge of being too diluted. I also don't recall DE every saying the new system was supposed to get rid of the vault. Obviously money would factor into it like with every business, but the major reason is relic dilution.

People are so quick to jump on the "cause dolla dolla bills" train.

[bl4ckhunter]

3 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Okay then, you have backtracked to post-relic system now and are now back at square one, only you have moved the farm back one level in the farming chain. Now you have to play that SPECIFIC mission, over and over, to get the relic you want. Rotation C Hell, all over again, the very thing we got the relic for to get rid of to begin with. Keys were spread thick over the nodes to make it where you could play a multitude of missions to get the relic you wanted without having to restrict yourself to playing missions you may in fact not like. Plenty of people hate spy missions, other hate endless, and still others hate exterminates. You are now suggesting that the rewards people play this game for now have a new, more intensive grind to get the chance to grind for the item you actually want. Congratulations, you have now made items intrinsically rare by putting them on undesirable nodes or poor-luck endless rotations. So items that were rare by the vault are now rare because the sheer number of relics in the game means that the odds of you getting a specific relic have dropped. You also have effectively murdered player's preferred means of gaining relics, be it by farming nodes they are accustomed to, or by syndicates by increasing the total number of rewards it can roll making getting ones you want more of a pain.

Do tell me what this solves. You kill the trade market for the vaulted items by making them all available, you make farming a mass variety of relics harder by restricting relics to specific nodes, you restrict the choice of players in their farming locations by making them farm for the relic they want on possibly undesirable nodes... all for what? A large majority of players that this would affect already have most of the items that are vaulted or are only farming the item so as to try and sell it as a set.

Are you actually aware that the prime vault is just what you said plus time limited? Vaulted relics ARE NOT in the drop tables of all nodes. That said you're also wrong given that restricting relics to specific missions makes getting a specific relic easier than it is in the current sistem not harder.

Your only actually valid concern is the one about the economy but i could invalidate it using the same logic you used above, namely a lot of people hate being forced into trading and/or don't have much platinum so from their point of view the change would be entirely positive, is their opinion worth less than that of those that seek to profit over the prime vault? i don't think so. you are simply biased and that's the truth of it.

[Firetempest]

2 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

 Keys were spread thick over the nodes to make it where you could play a multitude of missions to get the relic you wanted without having to restrict yourself to playing missions you may in fact not like. Plenty of people hate spy missions, other hate endless, and still others hate exterminates. You are now sugge....

You know what Spy haters can do? Trade with the Defense haters. The exterminate haters can trade with the Interception haters...

You are going to see 3 different solutions.

As it is Relics everywhere so everything has a pool of 15+ relics and its just RNG per reward. At most separated by level. Trading still needed because of RNG

Relics localized into specific missions,factions,planets. Far more focused but requiring specific gameplay. Trading if you hate some missions but far less RNG.

Everything rewards point in system like syndicates but specifically for relics. The more rare the relic, the higher the point cost. Get what you want how you want. Not creating plat movement for DE. Wont happen.

[bl4ckhunter]

2 minutes ago, StinkyPygmy said:

See, everyone's saying its just about money but I'd argue its also more about the fact that relics are still just  on the very edge of being too diluted. I also don't recall DE every saying the new system was supposed to get rid of the vault. Obviously money would factor into it like with every business, but the major reason is relic dilution.

People are so quick to jump on the "cause dolla dolla bills" train.

Drop table dilution is intended by design in ALL cases given that DE decides the drop tables, that it's got nothing to do with the prime vault given that DE could just as easily remove the trash rewards (50 endo, common mods, etch) from the drop tables and drastically decrease dilution in one simple stroke, the prime vault is their solution to keep old items in the game and make money WHITHOUT decreasing drop table dilution,

[StinkyPygmy]

10 hours ago, bl4ckhunter said:

Drop table dilution is intended by design in ALL cases given that DE decides the drop tables, that it's got nothing to do with the prime vault given that DE could just as easily remove the trash rewards (50 endo, common mods, etch) from the drop tables and drastically decrease dilution in one simple stroke, the prime vault is their solution to keep old items in the game and make money WHITHOUT decreasing drop table dilution,

IN that case, if its designed exclusively with money in mind, propose a solution that stuill finds a happy medium between necessary grind and removes some dilution. Removing trash rewards would very likely break said balances. No one has ever been able to come up with a vaible solution when asked that question, meaning it clearly isn't easy for DE to come up with a solution either.

Edited January 17, 2017 by StinkyPygmy

[NeithanDiniem]

3 minutes ago, bl4ckhunter said:

Are you actually aware that the prime vault is just what you said plus time limited? Vaulted relics ARE NOT in the drop tables of all nodes. That said you're also wrong given that restricting relics to specific missions makes getting a specific relic easier than it is in the current sistem not harder.

Your only actually valid concern is the one about the economy but i could invalidate it using the same logic you used above, namely a lot of people hate being forced into trading and/or don't have much platinum so from their point of view the change would be entirely positive, is their opinion worth less than that of those that seek to profit over the prime vault? i don't think so. you are simply biased and that's the truth of it.

No, but they ARE on a VARIETY of locations compared to SINGULAR locations. That is a huge difference there, for starters. The vast majority of relics are spread throughout most of the endless missions, several key ones having the largest number are the prime farm locations. And the moment you restrict a specific relic to a specific node, you run into the issue of the item being easy to get. Items easy to get from one source are typically saddled with a low drop chance to counterbalance that ease, making the grind be more cumbersome because you now have less chances in a run to get the relic reward. Lastly bringing all the vaulted items back is quite a significant hit on the economy for the people that already invested time and effort into gaining the items for the purpose of farming. You have wasted their time they already spent.

If neither side is advantageous, then changing things is just going to cause grief for pointless grief because change means relearning the system people were  using.

[Steadfast]

Hey, money ain't a bad reason to do anything. I myself am in the business of making money. When I go to work and do my job as long as I am providing something people are willing to buy, I don't think about anything else. I don't work for free and I don't suspect many others do. I'm of the belief that over half of gamers are too young to understand this and therefore will complain if something isn't given to them, or talk about fan service. Well noone in this world is out there for you, except maybe your mom. Sure I have problems with a lot of business decisions in a lot of games and I think a lot of games take advantage of peoples spending habits. I wouldn't say this game is exempt from that either. I will say, 90% of the complaints regarding DE and its business decisions are biased and unfounded. 

In the end only one thing remains true, as long as this game is making money, it will succeed, the minute it stops making money they will either find out what they can do to keep it profitable or shut it down. But people who never spend money that are complaining about a game like this don't have room to speak. Until you have invested your own money into said product then you are leeching off of those who have. Off of me. Gamers like me who spend money are the reason games like this are thriving.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Steadfast

[(XBOX)BULLS 0N PAR4DE]

 So if DE would just remove forma and the parts that have more than one relic I'm sure you could add most of the current parts into the vacant spots. They could also add 1 more part to each relic as well. Hell add a few more relics to the grand total. There a few easier ways to eliminate the vault. I don't understand why some here just cant grasp the concept.

 As for destroying the trading market, Um I believe that has already happened. The trade market is junk now and only filled with riven requests and posts.

 As for the vault being a source of income. Increased resource creep will take care of that.

[bl4ckhunter]

17 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

No, but they ARE on a VARIETY of locations compared to SINGULAR locations. That is a huge difference there, for starters. The vast majority of relics are spread throughout most of the endless missions, several key ones having the largest number are the prime farm locations. And the moment you restrict a specific relic to a specific node, you run into the issue of the item being easy to get. Items easy to get from one source are typically saddled with a low drop chance to counterbalance that ease, making the grind be more cumbersome because you now have less chances in a run to get the relic reward. Lastly bringing all the vaulted items back is quite a significant hit on the economy for the people that already invested time and effort into gaining the items for the purpose of farming. You have wasted their time they already spent.

If neither side is advantageous, then changing things is just going to cause grief for pointless grief because change means relearning the system people were  using.

You are devolving the argument, my original point was simply that the prime vault is just a marketing strategy not a solution to anything (hence why it is still a thing),  and that if they wanted to they could easily put the vaulted relics permanently into the game without affecting current drop tables, i first never said that it would've required to restrict relics to singular nodes rather something along the lines of making the different endless mission TYPES have different drop tables which is different than having x relic only drop from y mission. Lastly about the wasting effort it was their choice to farm for the chance at profiting from selling X item at Y price, nowhere was said that there would not be changes or were given guarantees, it was essentially their decision based on their opinion, if it actually mattered weapons like the brakk would still be exclusive for example. 

Bottom line is, nothing will happen to the prime vault becouse it's essentially a marketing decision and it's got nothing to do with drop tables as per answer to the question in the title, i'm not saying that it should be changed, i'm just saying that it doesn't exist for the reason you think it does. 

Edited January 17, 2017 by bl4ckhunter

[(PSN)ArgusTheMan]

2 hours ago, thewhitepanda1205 said:

Yes, they still are, but it's the drop tables for something else now. Basically, they kept the problem of drop table dilution, but this time it's with relics now not the parts. So if they released every relic into the drop tables, it would be near impossible to get what relic you wanted because we have over 12 relics in every class if not more. The only way to fix this would be to do something like make relics Node specific.

Edit: Also, the ingame economy relies on item scarcity so yes it is also money.

Well I meant in relation to prime parts, but yeah, getting the key you want is a unnecessary hassle and then having to hope to rng you or someone else gets the drop your banking on.

[NeithanDiniem]

12 minutes ago, bl4ckhunter said:

You are devolving the argument, my original point was simply that the prime vault is just a marketing strategy not a solution to anything (hence why it is still a thing),  and that if they wanted to they could easily put the vaulted relics permanently into the game without affecting current drop tables, i first never said that it would've required to restrict relics to singular nodes rather something along the lines of making the different endless mission TYPES have different drop tables which is different than having x relic only drop from y mission. Lastly about the wasting effort it was their choice to farm for the chance at profiting from selling X item at Y price, nowhere was said that there would not be changes or were given guarantees, it was essentially their decision based on their opinion, if it actually mattered weapons like the brakk would still be exclusive for example. 

Bottom line is, nothing will happen to the prime vault becouse it's essentially a marketing decision and it's got nothing to do with drop tables as per answer to the question in the title, i'm not saying that it should be changed, i'm just saying that it doesn't exist for the reason you think it does. 

Mission TYPE was the very thing I stated was the exact problem. People don't want to be forced to play spy, or forced to play endless rotations of survival, or forced to play mobile defense to get the specific item they want. The system as it stands now has each relic available from multiple DIFFERENT types of locations to give people the choice to go about their way. Simply put adding more relics to the game with multiple locations per relic reduces the ability to get specific relics. Forcing relics to specific locations reduces the player's choice for farming. No matter WHAT gets done the prime item economy will suffer an even bigger hit than its already suffered. There is no simple solution as you seem to imply because they all have negative counterbalancing effects. Yes DE offers the items for profit, they are a business that has people that work to pay their bills and feed their families. They also stated multiple times before the relic system hit that there was no plans to stop using the prime vault. It is however not the end all reasoning that it was strictly chosen to be that way because of the profits it offers.

If it was just about profits then DE would offer the cosmetics as a separate pack, which a far many people have begged them for, myself included. Most people DON'T buy the vault offers because it gives them items they have no use for whatsoever. Anyone with a basic understanding of economics would know that offering the more desired half of the items, the cosmetics, at more than half the cost of the full offer would still net a larger number of sales and profits than having just the larger offer alone. Very few buy the vaulted packs just for the cosmetics, while plenty are waiting in line for them if DE were to offer it separately. And unlike the founders items, which are contractually bound to their exclusivity, the prime cosmetics are not bound to that sale and so DE could offer it if they wished. They chose not to for their own reasons, which counters the idea of them doing the vaulted packs strictly for profits as I have explained.

[Schregger]

3 hours ago, thewhitepanda1205 said:

Yes, they still are, but it's the drop tables for something else now. Basically, they kept the problem of drop table dilution, but this time it's with relics now not the parts. So if they released every relic into the drop tables, it would be near impossible to get what relic you wanted because we have over 12 relics in every class if not more. The only way to fix this would be to do something like make relics Node specific.

Edit: Also, the ingame economy relies on item scarcity so yes it is also money.

They could drop the number of possible rewards from a single relic, from 6 to maybe 4, and remove alot of the repeating rewards, like how you could get the Bronco Prime BP from 6 different relics, and than consolidate the remaining rewards and relics. But that would make things too easy to get having only a 25% instead of a 12.5% (not considering the common/rare percentages), and would also leave certian things like Forma without a place (thats saying if you really want to keep getting Forma from relics).

[Carnage2K4]

3 hours ago, Volinus7 said:

DE don't even have enough courage to answer your question OP and you aren't the first or the only one that asked.

What's to answer?

Space mom has said countless times on the steam that sometimes they need to think as a business as well as a games developer, what more do you need, a direct statement to bi-weekly 'why is the vault still a thing' thread? waste of time, the answer is out there.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Carnage2K4

[TARINunit9]

In addition to making DE more money, it also keeps the bottom from falling out of the player-run economy. The pros very slightly outweigh the cons with that little fact, if only just slightly

[JalakBali]

Also, the Vaulted Primes, so far, are not essential items that you must have in order to do even the end-game. We might cross that bridge once Tigris Prime is vaulted but by then they might have introduced an even more ridiculous weapon. None, and I do mean none, of the Prime warframes are necessary for end game. The regular kind do the job just as well. You might need them for Mastery but really, even if you don't have a single vaulted item, you'll be restricted to... what... MR 20? Which is perfectly acceptable as the extra features of 3 more ranks don't really matter much.

 

Is this a business move? Yes. Absolutely.

Is DE corrupt and condemning their players to toil and suffer unless they spent money? No. Have you ever tried doing Sortie 3 with only non-vaulted items? They're very much doable.

Is DE terrible and dastardly greedy trying to milk their player base? Have you SEEN other F2P games? Talk to me again once DE started selling "Golden Bullets" that can only be bought by real money with a limited time use and is 200% more powerful than normal bullets.  Good F2P games sell convenience, like speeding up a process that's not long even without it. Bad F2P games sell items that give unfair advantage for a limited time.