Can we please stop this thought that Mirage is the only thing that makes Synoid Simulor OP?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

3 hours ago, Chipputer said:

And I take pride in that.

I believe knowing the mechanics of the game will breed a better player than any meta could ever do and so far I have not been proven wrong, both from myself and from running into others who think the same way.

Agreed. Being a theorycraft, I always strive to master mechanics to find great warframe uses and synergies. I'm making a playbook right now with all that stuff, like how oberon can be the king of infested missions. And how mirage is more than just a simulor steroid (total eclipse totally underrated)

Edited February 21, 2017 by (PS4)Crixus044

[Chipputer]

Just now, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

oberon can be the king of infested missions. 

Nah, I mean, turning off the Infested auras by simply press 1 or 4? What a useless ability. Oberon is bad!

[(PSN)Crixus044]

31 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

Nah, I mean, turning off the Infested auras by simply press 1 or 4? What a useless ability. Oberon is bad!

Lol and his 2 knocking out those pesky toxin procs and increasing armor. Or his first augment making you a damage king. How useless lol

But i guess people like powers that are "easy" to use and don't require much tactics and in depth knowledge of mechanics, this why mirage and the synoid simulor are so powerful

[Nox_Terminus]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Lol and his 2 knocking out those pesky toxin procs and increasing armor. Or his first augment making you a damage king. How useless lol

But i guess people like powers that are "easy" to use and don't require much tactics and in depth knowledge of mechanics, this why mirage and the synoid simulor are so powerful

Oberon can be useful, but he doesn't scale very well on his own, additionally for strong builds you lose out on power efficiency and end up relying on EV trin or energy pizza spam. A few tweaks would make him a solid CC Buffer Tank. As it stands now he can only really help frames with high armor to begin with, and his 4 not dropping orbs based on power strength instead of kills is a complete miss.

Buff Oberon's armor to 250.

1 is fine

2 is fine, but the armor calculation should just be a set DR (capping out at 75%), with the effect remaining on allies who enter the field and leave, but slowly decaying over time the longer they stay out of it (decay rate based on duration). This allows him to be a buffer alternative to EV Trin.

3 increase healing orb movement speed (based on power range), and have it be a set duration of healing over time instead of automatically stopping once full.

4 have health orbs drop based on power strength, up to a max of 40% chance per target.

This makes him more effective at providing benefits for his team without becoming a liability in high tier missions. It also makes him a viable provider to keep Health Conversion going, on top of granting status immunity. It doesn't mess with Trinity's effectiveness because she can toss out infinite energy and spam blessing all day long (honestly she needs a few tweaks as well).

As for being the king against infested, Nidus easily beats him at everything other than healing and status cleansing. Nekros can wade through infested with any good melee. Inaros can regen health faster than they can even hurt him (Scarabs are almost OP), and he can also mass blind with higher consistency.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Nox_Terminus

[Vedlom]

Ah, OP is one of those no fun allowed that cries for nerfs as soon as he doesn't get a shot at something.

There's an easy way to solve that:

Once in a mission, if you see someone having fun with a weapon you don't like, you just leave the mission!

You'd be surprised on how well it works.

[Vedlom]

22 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Nah, I mean, turning off the Infested auras by simply press 1 or 4? What a useless ability. Oberon is bad!

So no other frame can do that?

[Magneu]

2 hours ago, Vedlom said:

Ah, OP is one of those no fun allowed that cries for nerfs as soon as he doesn't get a shot at something.

There's an easy way to solve that:

Once in a mission, if you see someone having fun with a weapon you don't like, you just leave the mission!

You'd be surprised on how well it works.

Nice ad hominem. Do you have an actual valid criticism of the OP's concern?

Telling people to leave when they encounter a certain piece of a gear is indicative that said piece of gear is what's truly at fault.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

My biggest issue is the lag. Shadows of the Dead was nerfed for that that reason, even though Simulor Mirages are and were more common than high-strength Nekros users, as well as more laggy. (And the Nekros rework made my friend, a Nekros main, quit the game.)

[Nox_Terminus]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Darth-Escar said:

My biggest issue is the lag. Shadows of the Dead was nerfed for that that reason, even though Simulor Mirages are and were more common than high-strength Nekros users, as well as more laggy. (And the Nekros rework made my friend, a Nekros main, quit the game.)

The changes didn't hurt him much. Your friend overreacted. Shadows of the dead can reach extremely high shadow count if you kill a bunch of enemies who spawn other enemies, i.e. Drahk or Hyekka Masters. Highest I've had out is 35.

[(PSN)Darth-Escar]

2 hours ago, Nox_Terminus said:

The changes didn't hurt him much. Your friend overreacted. Shadows of the dead can reach extremely high shadow count if you kill a bunch of enemies who spawn other enemies, i.e. Drahk or Hyekka Masters. Highest I've had out is 35.

That's pretty much something you can only do against the Grineer. In any case, there's a somewhat long explanation why the rework was a big nerf, which isn't something for this thread.

[Karav]

On 2/20/2017 at 3:49 PM, Chipputer said:

Hey, someone else who doesn't necessarily like the syndicate effects. High five!

Anyway, the problem with your first little sentence, there, is that the SySim doesn't require a coordinated group to be powerful whereas the Torid, generally, does so that you don't spread out the enemies too much. You don't need that with the SySim and you especially don't need it when using Mirage.

High five! I actually do use one syndicate weapon effect and that's for my Vulkar. The ability augments on the other hand? Worth it.

You actually just nee a Vauban or a Loki, or anything with a taunt or means of keeping enemies in place. I imagine pairing a Pox with the simulor would get decent results. BUT... I don't have a simulor (yet) so I can't say for certain.

On 2/21/2017 at 2:38 AM, Nox_Terminus said:

Oberon can be useful, but he doesn't scale very well on his own, additionally for strong builds you lose out on power efficiency and end up relying on EV trin or energy pizza spam. A few tweaks would make him a solid CC Buffer Tank. As it stands now he can only really help frames with high armor to begin with, and his 4 not dropping orbs based on power strength instead of kills is a complete miss.

[snip]

As for being the king against infested, Nidus easily beats him at everything other than healing and status cleansing. Nekros can wade through infested with any good melee. Inaros can regen health faster than they can even hurt him (Scarabs are almost OP), and he can also mass blind with higher consistency.

Whoa there, I think that may go in a rework thread. But yes, he does have some scaling issues. That can be said about most frames' abilities once enemies start hitting the 35+ range.

16 hours ago, Vedlom said:

So no other frame can do that?

Cleanse status? Not that I know of, but it could change. Nothing actually "turns off" auras, but radiation effects are good at keeping enemies from using their auras effectively. Same goes for taunts. Still, it doesn't change that Oberon has the ability to recover HP and cleanse status effects, which is pretty valuable considering how weak shields can be.

[sappinmahsentry]

On 2/16/2017 at 0:30 PM, Tesseract7777 said:

Actually Mirage does need nerfs. Before the Synoid Simulor Mirage abused other weapons horribly and will find a new one if Simulor itself is nerfed. Yes, Simulor needs to be nerfed independently of Mirage, but Mirage could also use balancing independently of Simulor. 

It is far too easy for her to pick up the latest flavor of the month and make it absolutely ludicrous. And that IS a problem, whether those who are fans of Mirage want to admit it or not. Even after the change to Prism she is still one of the most overpowered frames in the game by far due to her interactions with many weapons. 

And that won't be solved by simply nerfing the Synoid Simulor. That solves nothing except that particular weapon, and there is far more wrong with Mirage than the Synoid Simulor. 

In short: They both need balancing.

Actually, thank you for this. This is fine.

[Chipputer]

20 hours ago, Vedlom said:

So no other frame can do that?

The only other one that reliably can is Loki with his disarm augment, but I'm not even sure on that because Loki's radiation procs act really strangely.

Oberon is 100% guaranteed to turn them off with the simple press of one button. Other frames generally have to rely on chance procs or use weapons that are overall less efficient with 100% status radiation against Infested, which is usually a bad idea in the long run.

4 hours ago, Karav said:

You actually just nee a Vauban or a Loki, or anything with a taunt or means of keeping enemies in place. I imagine pairing a Pox with the simulor would get decent results. BUT... I don't have a simulor (yet) so I can't say for certain.

That still requires using a specific frame and forcing the enemies to cooperate with you, though. Once you get your SySim you'll realize why people are so up in arms over it. Especially if you just use Mirage, press 1, then W+M1 through the whole mission.

[Chipputer]

On 2/21/2017 at 1:38 AM, Nox_Terminus said:

additionally for strong builds you lose out on power efficiency

lol no you don't

You can make due with a 150 power pool Oberon with proper application of his abilities and max efficiency with at least 200% power strength and room for the augment of your choice (Hallowed Reckoning and Smite Infusion being the only useful ones).

You lose out on range (stretch only), but Oberon's abilities suffer when using max range. Damage dealt is too small, full range builds generally lose out on Renewal efficiency (because for some reason people seem to think positive duration Renewal is worth anything), and Hallowed Ground locks you into not being able to act until it spawns when the range is too high.

http://i.imgur.com/Rkhxlsd.jpg Version 1 of Godberon
http://i.imgur.com/7NEKRkl.jpg Version 2, featuring flexible aura slot

You will never need another Oberon build. You still can use them and he's flexible enough to make them work, but this build allows effective use of all of his powers in appropriate situations, easily allows you to hold down rooms via CC, Version 1 leaves the augment slot flexible enough that anything 15 capacity or lower can fit there, and his heals are nothing to sneeze at because they heal hard with the initial hit and don't take 10 years to tick up due to negative duration.

Zenurik optional as long as you manage your power pool properly.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Chipputer
typo

[Haxwell]

Mirage isn't super OP, her 1 is super OP. And as for the synoid simulor well that's a kid's toy.

[Karav]

Great. We agree that both Mirage's first ability and the Simulor are powerful. So what? What do you want done about it? Do you want them nerfed? How do you plan to go about that?

Launcher weapons generally have their power restricted by slow fire rate, and low ammunition. I miss the days of people posting "Mirage + Phage = OP."

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

3 hours ago, Karav said:

Great. We agree that both Mirage's first ability and the Simulor are powerful. So what? What do you want done about it? Do you want them nerfed? How do you plan to go about that?

Launcher weapons generally have their power restricted by slow fire rate, and low ammunition. I miss the days of people posting "Mirage + Phage = OP."

Mirage Clones bring their own gun. They don't shoot the gun held by the actual mirage, they shoot...something else. The Nex Obscura, or something. 

The question for me is, what is the purpose of hall of mirrors? The write up says something like "distract and deceive" enemies, but it's also (as implemented now, I guess) "give 40% damage boost" as well. Now, is that an appropriate purpose for Mirage's visual-hallucination concept? I dunno. It seems a little mundane of a feature for a power like Hall of Mirrors, just adding extra damage. But then the best status proc in the game is dead, so who am I to argue.

Edited February 23, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[ChuckMaverick]

On 16/02/2017 at 6:00 PM, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Change Simulor into a charge weapon Then players must sacrifice some power to make up for charge time. Mirage still can do lots of damage but not as much and not as quickly. 

Problem solved

In the hands of anyone other than Mirage, the (Synoid) Simulor is effectively a charge weapon, as you don't do any damage at all until your second shot.

[Vedlom]

On 22/02/2017 at 2:25 AM, Magneu said:

Nice ad hominem. Do you have an actual valid criticism of the OP's concern?

Telling people to leave when they encounter a certain piece of a gear is indicative that said piece of gear is what's truly at fault.

Ad Hominem?

Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about. That's in no way Ad Hominem.

[Magneu]

5 minutes ago, Vedlom said:

Ad Hominem?

Yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about. That's in no way Ad Hominem.

You labeled him as, and I quote:

 

On 2/21/2017 at 5:34 PM, Vedlom said:

one of those no fun allowed that cries for nerfs as soon as he doesn't get a shot at something.

That seems like an attack on a person instead of their argument. At the very least, it's a poor attempt at discrediting his argument.

[Karav]

Alright, alright let's get back on track.

On 2/22/2017 at 8:00 PM, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

Mirage Clones bring their own gun. They don't shoot the gun held by the actual mirage, they shoot...something else. The Nex Obscura, or something. 

The question for me is, what is the purpose of hall of mirrors? The write up says something like "distract and deceive" enemies, but it's also (as implemented now, I guess) "give 40% damage boost" as well. Now, is that an appropriate purpose for Mirage's visual-hallucination concept? I dunno. It seems a little mundane of a feature for a power like Hall of Mirrors, just adding extra damage. But then the best status proc in the game is dead, so who am I to argue.

What if hall of mirrors did something else? For 25 energy, a flat 40% damage boost is pretty scary, especially when you consider how well it scales. The accuracy leaves something to be desired, but who cares? What if you changed the way the clones deal damage? You could reduce their status chance, restrict the damage type(s) or change the way the clones attack altogether. You could make them fire in random directions or increase the spread.

[Valkyr-Umbra]

Yeah, Mirage is strong, but she's only absurdly busted when a particular weapon is imo (and lets be honest, she's not the only frame who's strong as hell). To justify nerfing her, I feel like numerous frames would have to be nerfed first: Valkyr, Trinity, Nova, Ember, Mesa, Nidus... and probably many more XD.

[Alpha_Zerg]

How about you NOT ask for a nerf to something just because you don't like it. This game needs things added to it and systems being improved, not old things being nerfed. I honestly don't see many Synoid Simulors being used lately, and when I do I don't care. It doesn't matter what someone else is playing with.

 

Stop being salty that someone else is getting more kills than you for less effort.

 

If you don't like how someone else is getting more kills than you then just run to another side of the map. If you're in a defence then just sit there and enjoy the fact that you can be out of the mission sooner.

[Magneu]

32 minutes ago, Alpha_Zerg said:

 

How about you NOT ask for a nerf to something

 

Golly gee, guess I'll just stop voicing my opinion, as your stunning reasoning and logical thought process have rendered my position undefendable!

For real though.

The fact that they get more kills is irrelevant; players are not asking for nerfs just because "they don't like it." That's a strawman fallacy, and is as such null and void.

What matters is that for almost zero effort, the player can cheese the entire game with almost no interaction, while simultaneously assaulting their teammate's eyes and ears with obnoxious FX, while also denying anybody near them any sort of interaction with the game, as enemies simply melt in a large radius through walls.

It isn't about being outscored, it's about greater game balance. With the current iteration of SySim, balance is nigh impossible, as any new content gets PEWPEWPEW'D to oblivion and players complain of the game being too easy. It's funny that you say this:

29 minutes ago, Alpha_Zerg said:

This game needs things added to it and systems being improved

But fail to see (or choose to ignore) that the SySim breaks new and innovative systems, or cheeses them to the extent that any thought of strategy goes out the window and it becomes a spam fest.

If you're going to defend the SySim, at least bring a real argument; fallacious arguments just make you look like someone with a bit too much of an investment in the topic at hand, someone possibly afraid of losing easy mode.

^{Ok, that was a strawman as well, but I couldn't resist.}

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Plus, nearly 100% of the time, the combo is killing the game's performance. At least on Xbox, when the Miragulor starts to unload with a SySim, frame rate heads for the basement, hit detection is blown, and it becomes hard to play the game even if I could get a kill in edgewise.