Archwing: Why I Think People Don't Like It

[Imaru]

So lets talk about Archwing. The way I see it there are several main issues with it that are what keep people from it. 

First, the control scheme. This is probably the biggest issue that most people have, at least from what I've seen on the forums. The 6DoF is nice in theory, but it is terrible to control, especially since there is still a relative "up" dimension that the minimap and enemies are based on. As a result, it becomes nigh impossible to control, particularly in the cramped quarters of the Corpus Ship map (more on that later). My way of fixing this would be to take a look at other games with 6Dof. The one that comes to mind for me is Space Engineers. In SE you have controls that allow you to rotate your view around your cross-hair (imagine bending your neck left and right. The object in the center of your FoV stays there, but rotates). We already have controls to turn left, right, up, and down, but we need to use a composite of those to actually rotate our body on the third axis of rotation. 

Secondly, we have the disconnect from regular gameplay. Sharkwing is an attempt at that, as was the beginning of TWW, but those are the only times where we transition between Archwing and Ground Play within a mission. Originally there was the issue of scaling, but those two events show that is no longer the case. The unfortunate reality is that normal and Archwing gameplay are so different, both mechanically and scale (kilometers vs meters), that it becomes difficult to combine the two. I have no idea how to make it easier, beyond including Archwing for In/Exfiltration, like the infiltration of the Kuva Fortress in TWW. 

Third, we have the issue of variety. So far, we have 2 maps that we encounter on a regular basis: Corpus Ship and Grineer Asteroid Field. We also encounter Mutalist Corpus ships on the Jordas Assassinate mission and Jordas Verdict, but that's it. In my view, these are too different, and there is no middle ground. Corpus ships are too tight, especially with the speed at which you can move in Archwing. It renders your speed more or less irrelevant (and if you're using Itzal your Blink is pretty much useless). For that I suggest expanding that map a bit so we have a bit more room to breath. As for the Grineer Asteroid Field, I think it is the ideal style for a map in Archwing. Huge, open, and making great use of the 3 dimensional movement that Archwing allows. For a Corpus version of this, we could have a Debris Field. A bit more stuff in your way than the asteroid field, but that sort of thing. 

In addition to a lack of variety in tilesets, we also lack mission types. We currently have Exterminate, Sabotage (Corpus only), Pursuit (Grineer only), Mobile Defense, Interception (Grineer only), Rush (Corpus only), and Assassinate (Infestation only). As you can see, we have plenty of mission types, but they are too linked to individual factions. Only 2 of the seven mission types can be played with more than one faction, and the Infestation only exist in the Assassinate mission. I will grant that in large part the mission types are intrinsically linked to the tilesets (the Corpus Trench Run is too closed off and tight for Interception to be very viable) but the maps we see on the ground could definitely lend inspiration to Archwing maps and open them up significantly. We have also seen mission types that haven't happened since the events they were introduced during (Eyes of Blight I'm looking at you)(Yes I know that there have been Formorians attacking since then but not with any regularity). 

In my opinion, the best way to boost Archwing play is to start with the controls. Make it easier to right yourself to the global "up" (and possibly fix the minimap at the same time). Then we can work on the disconnect between regular and Archwing gameplay. Starting with Archwing as a way to get into and/or out of missions would be good, and then possibly allow players to provide support to squadmates on the ground in Archwing. Finally, add more variety. Mission types, Tilesets, and so forth. I think that if Archwing were approached from this point of view it would be able to be vastly improved and greatly boost the amount of play that Archwing receives. 

 

Please keep the conversation civil. I don't want a flame war to deal with. Any feedback you have on this I would love to hear. 

[venon23]

i dont like archwing since they put the stupid slide (drift in space) and the new rotation camera makes me feel sick other then that i dont like archwing because of the lack of content archwing is (it was ) so cool realy like it

we need too roll back the camera or fix it in away where my eyes dont go all around 
and add more content too it new "tillsets" or new maps  new mission types bigger bader Motherfker ships too fight instead of insects in space
fights  outside and inside bigger ships that can be destroyd 
archwing is (can be real cool if the just work on that )

But DE have alot of stuff in there hands 
Reworks
DMG 3.0
DOJOS
Relays
Darksectors
Quests (new writer the dude from quantom brake humm sounds shiny)
ETC...... etc...... et.... e.........
Archwing rework 2020 confirmed

Edited March 10, 2017 by venon23

[Imaru]

2 minutes ago, venon23 said:

i dont like archwing since they put the stupid slide (drift in space) and the new rotation camera makes me feel sick other then that i dont like archwing because of the lack of content archwing is (it was ) so cool realy like it

we need too roll back the camera or fix it in away where my eyes dont go all around 
and add more content too it new "tillsets" or new maps  new mission types bigger bader Motherfker ships too fight instead of insects in space
fights  outside and inside bigger ships that can be destroyd 
archwing is (can be real cool if the just work on that )

So your big issue with it is the control scheme? Like I said, that's what I though most people's issues with it were. 

First, the control scheme. This is probably the biggest issue that most people have, at least from what I've seen on the forums. The 6DoF is nice in theory, but it is terrible to control, especially since there is still a relative "up" dimension that the minimap and enemies are based on. As a result, it becomes nigh impossible to control, particularly in the cramped quarters of the Corpus Ship map (more on that later). My way of fixing this would be to take a look at other games with 6Dof. The one that comes to mind for me is Space Engineers. In SE you have controls that allow you to rotate your view around your cross-hair (imagine bending your neck left and right. The object in the center of your FoV stays there, but rotates). We already have controls to turn left, right, up, and down, but we need to use a composite of those to actually rotate our body on the third axis of rotation. 

Edited March 10, 2017 by Imaru

[venon23]

1 minute ago, Imaru said:

So your big issue with it is the control scheme? Like I said, that's what I though most people's issues with it were. 

is not i dont like i love space sht i played EVE and elite   but for some fuking reason  the archwing rotation kinda makes my eyes too turn around and if i play long time as normaly i do in games i start too feel realy bad 

i think is what they call motion sickness or some sht like that

[venon23]

yea i dont like the slide.....
make me feel sick 
headache nauseas and almost start too vomit once 
i play games too feel like a boss not too that sht
that was the first time i got that sht in all games i play until now and im kinda old school gamer so thats fking wierd 

PS: playing since 1994 theres older players then me not ataris time but even so it was been a while

Edited March 10, 2017 by venon23

[plexus_brachialis]

i think i could stomach the controls and disconnecting from regular gameplay if there was actually anything to play. i don't particularly dislike aw, actually, i like to play interception from time to time when everything else gets boring. that's the issue tho. with camera/control issues grineer interception map is the only one that's truly comfortable to me and also the only mission worth playing in regards to getting xp. 

it's a shame that for such hyped up system DE failed to deliver so hard. it's been 2 years already? and there is not enough content to show for it. i don't demand more weapons or mods or archwings or new mission types. but having more than 7 missions in all star chart would be a start.  i don't think it's that hard to add few more nodes and tweak levels. i won't even ask for more tilesets, though kuva fortress has nice looking atmosphere that is just wasted on quest intro

 

[MetaTrooper]

Uhh, okay so I don't know how much of the following really goes with what you've said, it's just kinda my thoughts on Archwing, so hope it's actually relevant, could very well all have been covered already.

We do lack control for the amount of freedom we have which may be down to having to be compatible with console setups, personally I'd put Everspace up as a better example for control though simply because it has the option to enable/disable an autocorrect which would keep you level, made it a hell of a lot easier to keep your bearings, I personally find that in archwing I'm going fine for a minute and then I end up at a 10 degree tilt which just throws me off my game completely. o_o

As for a map I do think the entire game could do with a change to a 3d map instead of a 2d one, like the one in Metroid prime series for instance, the map tiles don't have to be particularly detailed and many secrets can simply to be cut out of the map so you can keep the discovery aspect and save a little in complexity.

I don't think it's too hard to combine normal and AW gameplay however It does require AW to be further along before it's actually done, looking at the mission system as a whole I think there needs to be a separate node overlay on navigation dedicated to AW missions, this gives you a new free space to work with to add nodes in and give you more level variety without clogging up the main map, while I wouldn't recommend this for a long while yet perhaps the odd AW requirement/mod reward on a junction would make it easier to transition to at later stages like uranus, but I can completely understand a lot of players being against it.

Have to agree with the lack of variety, the most you can do if keeping it in space is usually background detail and enemy variety, currently you just have a bunch of grineer on space segways and corpus drones or jet packers, it's nice to see a gox or ogma but it's barely anything toward a change of pace, give us a capital ship to take down or something, let us assault a ship then actually BOARD the damn thing to save a dude or recover... stuff, pit us against an entire fleet with support from NPC defectors or something, an uphill struggle to reduce the power a faction has in the solar system, there's just not enough right now.

Honestly the whole thing is very unrefined, DE had a baby and just up and walked off before it could do anything, it's currently smearing god knows what over the crib because it has no direction, it has the potential to be a fun game mode, it's just been dropped before it had a stable foundation, start with settling on the controls, it's a big hole at the moment which is putting a lot of people off, then flesh out the activity and makes sure it's decently integrated into the current map system, sort out further QoL stuff and boom you should have a decent mode at the very least, but seriously DE, don't integrate AW into the normal game mode when you haven't even finished the foundations.

[Plushy]

What I don't like is the sliding. I don't care so much about the maps or the different rotating. I don't care about being upside-down or sideways. That doesn't get to me nearly as much as all that drifting. Try to turn straight towards an enemy? You missed it by 500m because you're still sliding or you end up going in circles around one thing because you apparently can't turn hard enough without the entire archwing stopping to correct course so melee is impossible. Corpus missions are literally just pinball. You have a little fun going fast in long hallways but whenever you need to make the tieniest movements you end up smacking your face on a beam or the wall. Can't play archwing until the drifting is removed.

[Katinka]

I really enjoyed Archwing originally but the new(er) controls ruined it for me.  I can understand the 'no up in space' argument but that doesn't apply to the Corpus maps since their ships do have a top and bottom and while we fly around inside that we should be able to right ourselves in relation to the ship around us.  The free movement just made navigation more confusing which in turn made the game slower and less fun.  Movement should have been kept as close to normal gameplay as possible to keep Archwing easy to pick up instead of us needing to learn a new control system.  It used to feel like the same game, just a new set of frames that float up instead of jumping and down when you hit crouch.  Now it's different and awkward.

[(PSN)adrian80]

Agreed that it's the controls, and lack of content.

At least on console, it's very cumbersome to aim at tiny enemies that move around irregularly. To circumvent this, you can go up close and melee everything, which is pretty boring (mindless button pressing).

[(XBOX)Senor Twix]

It is very easy for many people to get motion sickness from Archwing. I don't expect it to be a simulator, but I don't want it to be all over the place like they haven't been in a airplane before.

Variety is a problem also, but keep in mind not a lot of Warframe players are too worried about Archwing.

[magusat999]

The only real issue I had with Archwing is that it has no connection, impact or benefit to the rest of the game. It feels like you are playing a completely different game. If we were rewarded items relevant to the rest of the content, thereby enhancing our progression universally, I'd be more in favor of it. But as it is it is merely a distraction, for when people are just bored with the rest of the game.

[DEATHLOK]

My only problem with Archwing is the innate vacuum, or the size of drops. Quite frankly, you can't see most drops—they are too small, and they are spread about in all directions, rather than across the lateral playing field most are accustomed to. I doubt I pick up half of available drops, because I never see them. This means rewards are abysmal, which is the last straw for most.

Vacuum needs greater reach. Being stingy is simply asinine, and I guarantee the miserable rewards keep many from playing.

I completely disagree with arguments against the overall theme or mechanics of Archwing. It certainly takes practice. It is blatantly alien to the the presumed experience of a shooter, but I appreciate the variety.

Could be that there are not enough mods with which to fully equip gear. I guessing, because I never seem to pick up much stuff.

Edited March 11, 2017 by DEATHLOK

[Drejzer]

I on the other hand Like the new control scheme in Archwing (for me It's much better that the old one), but I agree that there is little variety in missions (and tere are so few of them).

 

[Culaio]

Well we can choose controlls now so both people who like and dislike new movement should be satisfied, but I believe that new movement could been done better since I saw people who like space combat game with 6DoF complain about archwing 6DoF so I believe that archwing is lacking something fundamental, either in controls, UI or map design.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

For me, it's mostly that Archwing feels like I've suddenly been switched over to Superman 64. It's slow, clumsy, and graceless compared to the rest of Warframe. Visually it's a mess. Mission wise, it's painfully limited AND the missions are both picky and unrewarding. 

Basically, it's a different game pasted onto the side of Warframe and it doesn't belong there. I'd rather they removed it and paid out the lost mastery that would entail than waste more dev cycles on it. 

[Culaio]

I think that DE adding momentum was their adept at giving closest thing archwing can have to parkour, a movement system that rewards people who master it, of course this idea failed but in theory momentum can be useful, like for example to attack shield archwing enemy in the back, imagine you fly by shield enemy, you rotate yourself to attack enemy from side or back while momentum carries you forward, without momentum you would movement direction would change to direction you rotate yourself which would most liekly mean you would collide with enemy, of course as I mentioned above its good idea in theory but not in practice, mostly of because corpus maps, in empty space momentum isnt a problem but it is problematic in tight corridors, maybe if corriders werent so tight and had less sticking out parts it wouldnt be a problem.

[True_Naeblis]

On 5/24/2017 at 4:30 PM, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

For me, it's mostly that Archwing feels like I've suddenly been switched over to Superman 64. It's slow, clumsy, and graceless compared to the rest of Warframe. Visually it's a mess. Mission wise, it's painfully limited AND the missions are both picky and unrewarding. 

Basically, it's a different game pasted onto the side of Warframe and it doesn't belong there. I'd rather they removed it and paid out the lost mastery that would entail than waste more dev cycles on it. 

Pretty much this. On top of the controls being unwieldy, the flight paths are way too narrow and change direction too quickly. I've played so many space sims including those utilizing mechs that do it well and Warframe for some reason thinks a super tight in camera angle and ridiculously narrow travel areas make for a "challenge"; it just makes for a literal headache as my Frame spends half the mission going headfirst into suddenly narrow entryways or pipes. I get limiting the area, but there needs to be more freedom. It's ridiculous that we can't fly along the edge of the hulls, in exterior trenches, etc, more often.

It's poor, poor design, and I know a lot of effort was put into it, but it doesn't have to be wasted. I'm sure the dimensions can be adjusted  and the areas for free flight increased without any major issue. As it is I will only touch Archwing when I absolutely have to in order to advance or for an alert, etc. The platform has possibilities, but it really needs to be tweaked to actually become fun.

Edited May 26, 2017 by True_Naeblis

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

What would really be great -- and is probably a pipedream, based on the architecture of the game -- is that Archwing was just integrated into normal play at all times. If you leap off a cliff, you start to fly. If you fly, enemies (like hellions, ospreys, etc.) come after you. You can play missions in the air or on the ground, or a mix, with a seamless transition (including wider FOV, a different way to handle the viewpoint and such -- especially for Arch-melee). 

Keep archwing-only missions and ground-only as well, but in open-air maps, let us switch. It would be a major change, and is likely impossible in anything like the near future, but if I was wishing for something, that would be it.

[Tecness]

My dislike of Archwing stems from the maps being too limited. It's space, they should be much bigger/less limiting. But more importantly, I dislike the enemies. Why do the enemies get into melee range with no melee abilities? The enemies will literally fly into you and push you with no melee weapons, why?