If you don't know how to do a spy vault, then stay out of it!

[2Peter3Nine]

• 98% of the public SORTIE spy missions i've been in, always have people that don't know what they are doing.
• And they don't know how to DO NOTHING, or STAY OUT of vaults.
•  
• I think SORTIE Spy missions should always be forced solo, that way EVERYONE has to get good at them.
•  
• Today was the public's last straw.
• I will no longer try to help anyone in SORTIE spy missions.
• I am only soloing them from now on, because soloing has a 98% success chance,
• while public matches so far have a 2% success chance..

Edited April 4, 2017 by General_Durandal
added more SORTIE mentions

[DiabolusUrsus]

4 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

Spys aren't really a grind. They are easy once you figure them out.

I guess the learning could be the grind though.

I meant the game in general, and how going solo/running invite-only alone nets you decisively less affinity and loot simply because you are alone. I'm saying that it would be nicer for 1x affinity and normal loot drop rates for solo/single-lobby play would be nice, with increases to affinity/loot/enemy difficulty scaling up with number of players. Why? Because why not?

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, Raptor1jdan said:

To everyone making snide comments about teaching noobs how to do spy vaults, do you really think that Sorties are the place for them to be learning how to do them? If these players have gotten so far into the game that they are doing Sorties and they still don't know how to do spy vaults then shame on them, and the least they could do is not trip over their own shoelaces and fail the mission for the entire squad...

As much as I hate the phrase, this is one of the few problems where "git gud" is an appropriate answer

To be fair, "Sortie" is only mentioned in one line of the post, and nowhere in the title. The phrasing of the OP makes it seem more like the complaint is applied to Spy in general and not limited strictly to Sortie.

Would it be considered good etiquette to not mess up a high-level run? Yes. Does that make this "grrr, noobs!" mentality coupled with a general lack of understanding that Public is always going to be uncoordinated and potentially frustrating more acceptable? No.

[Kalec]

Just look at how many people think Ivara is the hardest Frame to get, simply because it's locked behind Spy missions. Spy missions are quite easy, just a few tries of trial and error and be set, even for new ones since at the same time you just learn how to approach these missions (with the exception of Lua, which are entirely different).

But people refuse to put any effort into something. If it takes more than just blindly or brainless action, it is already too much effort for a lot of people. Even watching a video that explains it is too much effort.

Most of the time i try Sortie Spy once public and if that fails it's solo and even if it works, i end up doing most of the work anyway, which i kinda hate when i see people simply ignoring the objective and just running around or simply standing around doing nothing, but at least i get it done first try

[Bazingatron13]

If I don't know how to do a vault, I'll stay out. It's common sense, but if no one knows how to do it? Well, I'm usually the brave soul that steps up. 

[kyori]

I have always been soloing all spy missions, except with friends that skill I know.

Solo spy mission has 100% success rate.

[thelastzodiac]

Me and my friends feel your pain. But i don't think sortie or otherwise should be forced solo. You can select solo yourself. What would be nice to change is people forcing the mission start, i know people like to get going with missions and not wait especially with alerts being time limited availability but it doesn't help anyone and in more cases frustrates people by forcing mission start and is unneeded when people in a rush could quit party and start mission where the game will find you a new party if you don't select solo. Also spy missions are actually easy and i have done every spy vault without needing Loki of a sneaky frame, it's just a case of knowing the alternative way in, which there always is and it seams most people don't know of these and always goes through the front door which is where they fail. What's people need to do is be encouraged to learn the spy vaults more.

[Raptor1jdan]

5 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

To be fair, "Sortie" is only mentioned in one line of the post, and nowhere in the title. The phrasing of the OP makes it seem more like the complaint is applied to Spy in general and not limited strictly to Sortie.

Would it be considered good etiquette to not mess up a high-level run? Yes. Does that make this "grrr, noobs!" mentality coupled with a general lack of understanding that Public is always going to be uncoordinated and potentially frustrating more acceptable? No.

I read it as clearly pertaining to Sorties though I suppose there is some room for interpretation there, to be clear in any situation outside of Sorties I'm totally fine with less-skilled players trying their hand at vaults and I will even show them all the tricks and shortcuts that make the vaults super easy

I think the frustration towards players who are actively and directly failing missions and wasting everyone's time is a valid one, especially at the point in the game where these players can even do Sorties and should have some basic understanding of either the game or common decency

[(PSN)auwsomestgamer]

The way I learnt how to do spys was from farming for Ivara. 

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

Although I understand the frustration (Rescues are the same way for me in Public settings, which I generally only do for void trace farming), not everyone can be perfect all the time in spy missions.  It's possible to mess up and trip an alarm even if you've done that particular vault millions of times flawlessly.  And, yes, that does happen on sorties, probably more often because the stakes are higher since one mistake can result in mission failure.  We (and I include myself in this) shouldn't be so quick to just assume that some noob ruined our run by not knowing what to do, because, again, sometimes even the best players can mess up.

[Lanadra]

9 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Frickin random pool pal.

 

You sign in for randoms, you get randoms, which are not obliged to be good. Easy as that. They sure as hell don't complain about you, do they?

I don't really see why randoms would complain about someone completing a vault undetected..

''Hey Artorius you A******.. I wanted to F*** that vault up!!!''

In a normal mission I am somewhat inclined to even agree with your ''You sign in for randoms, you get randoms, which are not obliged to be good'', because to a degree, it is true.

In sorties however, I don't. In sorties you -can-, randoms or not, expect them to know how the game mode works. Because sorties are not meant for people that are ''still learning'' a game mode like Spy.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

1 minute ago, Artorius-Alter said:

I don't really see why randoms would complain about someone completing a vault undetected..

''Hey Artorius you A******.. I wanted to F*** that vault up!!!''

In a normal mission I am somewhat inclined to even agree with your ''You sign in for randoms, you get randoms, which are not obliged to be good'', because to a degree, it is true.

In sorties however, I don't. In sorties you -can-, randoms or not, expect them to know how the game mode works. Because sorties are not meant for people that are ''still learning'' a game mode like Spy.

While really beeing the only missions you easily find groups for these days with simple use of the chat.

 

But here you are, not utilizing your potential, complaining about randoms.

[2Peter3Nine]

9 hours ago, MagPrime said:

My point isn't dull, good grief.  I make the attempt to steer the conversation someplace productive by pointing out that players have no reason to improve and you two lose your minds and totally miss my point.

Stop whining about how others play the game.  Stop making a fuss where no one is going to even care.  Provide alternatives to improve your gameplay, make suggestions on how to incentivize better gameplay.

Why is that so hard to get?  

Oh, right, you're too busy being upset that you joined one too many PUG's and it ended badly for you.  Congrats, you're to blame for your own frustrations.

Enjoy drowning in your own angst.

angst noun a feeling of deep anxiety or dread, typically an unfocused one about the human condition or the state of the world in general.

Haven't felt that in at least a year. Not since I found scientific proof of god's existence.

Sorties, aka endgame, is not where newbies should learn spy missions.

The spy vaults are always the same, regardless of the level of the mission.

So learn them, on your own time, on a mission that doesn't need all three datas.

 

~~~~~

8 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I meant the game in general, and how going solo/running invite-only alone nets you decisively less affinity and loot simply because you are alone. I'm saying that it would be nicer for 1x affinity and normal loot drop rates for solo/single-lobby play would be nice, with increases to affinity/loot/enemy difficulty scaling up with number of players. Why? Because why not?

Sorties aren't where you level up your gear.

Sorties are where you show your skill.

The game already scales difficulty with player number.

I know this through experience.

Did a sortie interception solo, it was easy.

Did it again with a team, with them same build I soloed it with, It was VASTLY more difficult.

 

~~~~~~

8 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

To be fair, "Sortie" is only mentioned in one line of the post, and nowhere in the title. The phrasing of the OP makes it seem more like the complaint is applied to Spy in general and not limited strictly to Sortie.

Would it be considered good etiquette to not mess up a high-level run? Yes. Does that make this "grrr, noobs!" mentality coupled with a general lack of understanding that Public is always going to be uncoordinated and potentially frustrating more acceptable? No.

It's about sortie spy.

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

I suck at spy. I know I should learn them, but I don't. That said, I know my place and my place isn't inside them vaults during sorties.

It only occurred to me in yesterday's sortie spy mission what I should actually be doing.

Scanning for Cephalon Symaris points. Just invisi loki around the map scanning enemies. A good use of time and keeps me out of the skilled peoples' way.

Just thought I'd share my tip for other spongers like myself :)

Edited April 5, 2017 by (PS4)drpunk-yo

[DiabolusUrsus]

On 4/4/2017 at 6:45 AM, General_Durandal said:

Sorties aren't where you level up your gear.

Sorties are where you show your skill.

The game already scales difficulty with player number.

I know this through experience.

Did a sortie interception solo, it was easy.

Did it again with a team, with them same build I soloed it with, It was VASTLY more difficult.

Never said to limit it to Sorties. As I said, I meant the game in general. And I'm aware that it already has some degree of scaling for player count, but it's inverse scaling. The game is balanced around a team of 3-4, and scales enemy count down with a decrease in players.

But this hurts solo players more than it benefits them.

Due to the way Affinity is distributed and loot drop rates are applied, they end up with the short end of the stick when it comes to XP gain and loot farming. Why? Because the drop/gain rates are balanced around a group. I'm saying it should be balanced around ONE PERSON, with bonuses for additional players.

Bonuses to XP (due to increase in enemy count/kill rate.

Bonuses to loot for the same reasons.

Bonuses to enemy levels.

And NOT just limited to sorties.

PS: Dunno about you, but I take a weapon or two to carry myself and just benefit from bleed XP to level unless the sortie seems particularly difficult. Everyone has their methods; yours isn't necessarily the "correct" way.

On 4/4/2017 at 6:45 AM, General_Durandal said:

It's about sortie spy.

Then consider an appropriate and specific title?

Edited April 6, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[2Peter3Nine]

1 hour ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Never said to limit it to Sorties. As I said, I meant the game in general. And I'm aware that it already has some degree of scaling for player count, but it's inverse scaling. The game is balanced around a team of 3-4, and scales enemy count down with a decrease in players.

But this hurts solo players more than it benefits them.

Due to the way Affinity is distributed and loot drop rates are applied, they end up with the short end of the stick when it comes to XP gain and loot farming. Why? Because the drop/gain rates are balanced around a group. I'm saying it should be balanced around ONE PERSON, with bonuses for additional players.

Bonuses to XP (due to increase in enemy count/kill rate.

Bonuses to loot for the same reasons.

Bonuses to enemy levels.

And NOT just limited to sorties.

PS: Dunno about you, but I take a weapon or two to carry myself and just benefit from bleed XP to level unless the sortie seems particularly difficult. Everyone has their methods; yours isn't necessarily the "correct" way.

Then consider an appropriate and specific title?

The extra exp only matters if you have unleveled gear, which you shouldn't be bringing to sorties.

The "extra" loot, is from more enemies spawning at a time.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Wasn't time, after alarms raised, needed to hack Corpus puzzle slightly increased?

Edited April 6, 2017 by (PS4)Onder6099

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

6 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

The extra exp only matters if you have unleveled gear, which you shouldn't be bringing to sorties.

LOL, why not?  In a spy mission, it's good XP.  And, if you bring along 1 good weapon that can do the job when needed (which it shouldn't be in a spy mission) then what's the problem?

[(XBOX)Deflinek]

I don't get it why some people think that forcing solo to sortie spy is good idea. Is it some kind of "if I have to suffer all have to suffer"? Yes, spies are easy but yet many people have problem with them. Especially when for some reason you have to do more than one vault (sortie, quest or junction requirements).

I run public sortie spy a lot and there are mostly just two kinds of people there:
1. Those who know they are not good in spies and are looking for help.
2. Those who don't care to fail the mission once or twice and are willing to help others.

There is no 3rd group of people who intentionally go public to fail a mission for others. But there are people from group 1 who think they are group 2. It's not about not knowing the vaults, but sortie vault usually sports additional patrols or cameras and have some ways blocked. There is no way to know it unless you run sortie. This is most visible on Earth but even spy on Pluto doesn't always feature all the cameras. Hell, sometimes I trigger the alarm myself when I don't realize in time that I entered a vault as the door was already unlocked and I bullet jump straight into lasers or camera.

Frankly there is very simple solution that doesn't involve changes to matchmaking, forcing solo mode on everyone or complaining on forums. It's just the usual plain "solo mode" that everyone can turn on for themselves. And please use it if you don't belong to any of those 2 groups as both of them are already used to failing sortie spy.

[Omnimorph]

As someone who's crap at Spy missions but wants to get them done in Sorties, I would recommend to anyone else who's crap at Spy missions but wants to get then done in Sorties to STAY OUT OF THE WAY AND LET THE PEOPLE WHO KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING GET ON WITH IT.  A quick chat at the beginning of the mission should establish who knows what they're doing (top tip: it's usually, although not always, the Loki, or other stealth frame).

People who know how to do them don't mind leeches (in fact most of the time they're quite proud to be able to do the thing others in the team are too klutzy or inexperienced to do).  What they mind (as the OP points out) is people messing it up.

Just potter about killing stuff away from the Spy rooms and get to extraction when it's over - and say "gj" or "thank you" nicely to whoever does the Spy bits.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Omnimorph

[Callback]

I have always soloed for the sake of speed, but maybe I should PUG more often?  Be able to teach people?  If so many apparently struggle with it then maybe teaching groups would be a good idea?

[Serbian2G]

Play spy missions in Solo mode. Problem solved.

[DiabolusUrsus]

19 hours ago, General_Durandal said:

The extra exp only matters if you have unleveled gear, which you shouldn't be bringing to sorties.

The "extra" loot, is from more enemies spawning at a time.

 

13 hours ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

LOL, why not?  In a spy mission, it's good XP.  And, if you bring along 1 good weapon that can do the job when needed (which it shouldn't be in a spy mission) then what's the problem?

^ Pretty much this. Success is ultimately all that matters, so unless I cause myself to fail by taking nothing but sub-par gear, why should I care that all my gear is maxed? This isn't even limited to spy missions.

I know what the "extra loot" is coming from. Believe me, I understand how it works. 

I was talking about a conceptual change that I considered desirable. As in, imaginary. Not implemented. Different.

[TooPro4mexD]

I see what you mean, but if its that much of a problem I'd suggest you just play solo rather wasting your time on public.

[2Peter3Nine]

13 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

 

^ Pretty much this. Success is ultimately all that matters, so unless I cause myself to fail by taking nothing but sub-par gear, why should I care that all my gear is maxed? This isn't even limited to spy missions.

I know what the "extra loot" is coming from. Believe me, I understand how it works. 

I was talking about a conceptual change that I considered desirable. As in, imaginary. Not implemented. Different.

So, you want softies to give more affinity?

[mosaickle]

On 4/3/2017 at 5:52 PM, Imaru said:

Or, rather than being rude and raging against people who don't know how to do it, teach them how to. You can play solo to solve the problem, but teaching people is always a nice thing to do. 

Carry a person through a spy mission and they've made it through the day.

Teach a person a spy mission and they can do spy missions for life.