[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)psycofang]

Id most id say allow a 2 power wheel that works on both ends.

 

I get both my aoe and my single target and everyone else does too.

[Frenjo]

1 minute ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

I get both my aoe and my single target and everyone else does too.

But then again doesn't that make super-invulnerable Limbo unkillable? Which is what I was trying to avoid by making it single target only as before, whereas it's just a matter of managing timers as it was before.

[Doc-Orange]

This is new. To nerf a even unloved and underpowered Warframe like Limbo. The only reason for Limbos existence was to banish friends and targets. Now even this is broken when you need to go back to normal plane and will be vulnerable.

[(PSN)psycofang]

7 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

But then again doesn't that make super-invulnerable Limbo unkillable? Which is what I was trying to avoid by making it single target only as before, whereas it's just a matter of managing timers as it was before.

 

Not really.

The moment he became time stop king he became un-killable.

 

Time stop is an unbelievably insane form of CC especially with how rift torrent is designed.

 

Even in Fighting games its completely absurd.

The only way to expose limbo to danger proper is to either

remove radial surge banish to force him out to banish others

Remove time stop so hes always in danger

Or make non multiplane which they did

Edited March 26, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[Frenjo]

1 minute ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

-snip-

Yeah, I get what you're saying, and by DE doing what they've done has put Limbo in a really weird position. We have a choice of either gimp his ability or gimp his functionality... It's a difficult place.

[Azamagon]

7 minutes ago, Doc-Orange said:

This is new. To nerf a even unloved and underpowered Warframe like Limbo. The only reason for Limbos existence was to banish friends and targets. Now even this is broken when you need to go back to normal plane and will be vulnerable.

He is not nerfed, just made into something quite different.

Something he still retains is to be a distracting invulnerability-tank and a good Spy-runner.

But 2 of his unique roles are almost entirely gone. He is no longer nearly as good as a target-support (like in Rescue or Sortie-defense) or as a single target duelist/assassin.

Instead he became yet another crowd controller and nuker.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Azamagon

[(PSN)psycofang]

2 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

Yeah, I get what you're saying, and by DE doing what they've done has put Limbo in a really weird position. We have a choice of either gimp his ability or gimp his functionality... It's a difficult place.

For every blatant issue lies a problem that can create a chain reaction of meta problems.

He is complicated by nature of his rift mechanics and there in lies the issue of all else.

 

 

 

 

 

[Frenjo]

Just now, (PS4)psycofang said:

For every blatant issue lies a problem that can create a chain reaction of meta problems.

He is complicated by nature of his rift mechanics and there in lies the issue of all else.

True, but the changes DE have made to these mechanics have made it even more complicated than it needs to be.

[nameomnz]

So after testing for an hour 

I think I can breakdown a number of things

-His Banish(1) is basically just a wheel for his rift surge and not worth for anything else

-His Stasis(2) is the MUST use ability for hard CC and area lockdown

-His Rift surge(3) is just a back up when your cataclysm collapse/decaying to prevent your enemies from kicking out off the rift. When the enemy got out of cataclysm, They will still stay in the rift and passing the duration to his Banish

-His Cataclysm(4) is a new banish and also damage of collapse seem to scale with enemies current health and shield, Allow you to one-shot Corpus/Infested but simular to Sobek's Acid shell mod If the enemy has armor The damage output is going to be lower due to Armor's damage reduction.

Synergy:

-For CC lockdown: Stasis and then Cataclysm and then cast Rift surge to all enemies and then collapse the cataclysm. 

You will have all of your enemies stay pasue in the rift until the Banish's duration run out

-For nuking: Natural Talent + Cataclysm

Edited March 26, 2017 by nameomnz

[Twistedsparkle]

Banish is way too clumsy to be any use now :/ what a shame

also I was dissapointed they didnt give any QoL changes to animations
limbo is still struggling with lenghty locked casting animations

also I hate I have to move while entering rift with roll I wish that there was a way going in and out without the dodge (maybe by holding down the button?)

also rift surge doesnt work how its supposed to half the time
its weird.. might be bugged who knows

 

[Azamagon]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

For every blatant issue lies a problem that can create a chain reaction of meta problems.

He is complicated by nature of his rift mechanics and there in lies the issue of all else.

 

17 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

True, but the changes DE have made to these mechanics have made it even more complicated than it needs to be.

If DE considered old Limbo balanced (nigh unstoppable, but bad at killing quickly), I think we could have that as a basis for rebalancing his kit a bit better. Let's look at the "roles" he could do, and how that could be fixed up in a balanced way for new Limbo!

"Assassin role"
Old Limbo - Accomplished with the simple use of Banish + Rift Walk + Rift Surge.
New Limbo - Banish (if it was a single target banishment) + Rift Dash + Stasis to give him time (instead of giving him damage).
Thus, changes needed: Banish reverted to a single target banishment (at least on tap-cast, hold-cast could provide AoE Banish in whatever form deemed balanced. More to that later).

"Target guardian role"
Old Limbo - Banish your target which is need of protection + Rift Walk for own safety
New Limbo - A clunky and dangerous mess, due to the nature of new Banish.
Thus, changes needed: Banish reverted to a single target banishment (at least on tap-cast, hold-cast could provide AoE Banish in whatever form deemed balanced. More to that later).

"Multitarget killing role"
Old Limbo - Was very difficultly executed with Rift Walk + Rift Surge (easier augmented) + Cataclysm. Usually required sniping with long range explosives or similar cheesy styles.
New Limbo - Option 1) Cataclysm nuking. Cast on a big group of enemies and uncast immediately. Currently a bit broken.
Thus, changes needed: Cataclysm to not have such insane number-of-targets-scaling nuking power.
New Limbo - Option 2) Done with the Stasis + Cataclysm (Rift Surge optional). This should come with a downside, since he can do it from safety. Currently, that is the projectile limit, which unfortunately leads to more trolling power.
Thus, changes needed: Stasis needs another downside, a non-trolly one. I'd suggest either 1) increasing the "ticking speed" of the Stasis duration the more enemies are caught, or 2) put a small energydrain, increased per enemy caught (not interrupting any energygain methods though).

Verdicts:
1) Banish should revert back to what it was (at least on tap-cast)
2) Cataclysm shouldn't have such immense nuking power
3) Stasis needs a non-trolly drawback

That's at least what I'd do. Thoughts?

Edited March 26, 2017 by Azamagon

[Frenjo]

5 minutes ago, Azamagon said:

-snipped-

Hmm... I've always been an enemy of assigning "roles" to my baby Limbo, but I like some of what you've come up with.

I am just a firm proponent of multiplane banish!

[JCBeastie]

I'm still getting used to him; I like the easy shifting in out of the rift but also I do miss being able to freely roll. New Banish mechanic is a bit odd but I guess intended so that you are not always untouchable. Stasis seems like a pretty amazing addition. Only thing I cannot get my head around is Rift Surge, I have read how it works, I have used it, but it just makes no sense to me. It's so, cumbersome.

[-WF-Monarch]

So far the rework seems good. I only have like 2 issues though. 1) Can't banish enemies while in Rift Walk. 2) Can't pick up reactant while in the rift.

Now, having to leave the rift to gather items like ammo and stuff isn't a big deal for me, but having to leave to pick up reactant that may be surrounded by a LOT of enemies is. And having to leave the rift to banish enemies and then re-enter is a bit annoying. Everything else is fine though. Even the rolling Rift Walk is okay. Just please make it so we can Banish while in the rift and at least pick up reactant in the rift.

[Pizzarugi]

On 3/24/2017 at 1:49 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

When charged enemies die outside of the Rift, they surge and transfer the charge to nearby enemies. 

See, I don't understand this part about about Limbo's rift surge. How do enemies remain surged after they pass back into the material plane? As soon as they step back over, the surge activates and sends them back into the rift, so they can't feasibly die while surged and outside the rift.

[Frenjo]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

But im done on the subject matter for now, appreciate the mental exercise gents and ladies.

Thanks for contributing so much and for the discussion.

[Rythiman]

14 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

People really need to learn how to move forward. Look at what he can do.

 

You have to look at the positives. His Cataclysm is like Equinox's Maim now. It insta-kills level 140s. And I read nullifiers don't affect his Rift Dash because its a passive. Not sure if any of these will be adjusted in the future but he is strong right now.

If you want to pull enemies in the rift with you while you're in the rift, you have to use his 3 now or his 4 at the most. His 1 has a completely different purpose now.

Thank you for that video. So many people complaining about not being able to banish enemies in a different plane that they don't realize how much stronger all his other abilities are. Everyone says he sucks and contributed nothing to the team and they want single target banish and revert him to before, meanwhile you took the time to actually experiment with him and adapt your play style to make him powerful.

FYI, prerework limbo was good but he couldn't install a room of level 140s. I like him how he is now.

[Rythiman]

5 hours ago, Clonmac said:

I'm a long time Limbo player and have written some guides on here previously for the original Limbo. I loved Limbo as he was and was very nervous that DE would change Limbo too drastically.

At first when I started playing the new Limbo, it was very jarring and I immediately concluded that Limbo was ruined. I was using the same build that I previously used because I wasn't sure how to spec him seeing as how I hadn't played him yet. I was also trying to use the same tactics as before.

After spending a good amount of time on him now testing builds and tactics, I can now say that he is still my favorite warframe. However, he is now a completely different warframe and should be treated as such. Trying to use the same builds and tactics as you did previously with Limbo will immediately set yourself up for failure. For me to understand this new Limbo, I had to approach him from a completely fresh perspective. Here are a few of my early takeaways on the new Limbo.

Previously, with Rift Surge, he was a very adept warframe at dishing out damage. He was a glass cannon because he was also very susceptible to taking damage as well. This meant that tactics and position was crucial to survival. However, now he is less about dealing as much damage and more about hard CC. He is one of the most effective CC frames on the game now. He can completely halt and CC vast amounts of enemies for longer durations of time than any other warframe is capable of.

Banish is a very critical piece to this new style of play. People who are trying to use Banish the same as they did before (picking of high priority targets from within the rift) will need to change tactics. Banish is now a CC ability. It has a very large range and is spammable against large amounts of enemies. This is the best thing about the new Banish that many are ignoring:

Because Banish is now unidirectional, you can easily spam it against all your targets while in the material plane sending all units around you into the rift where they'll be frozen in time. You won't need to worry about bouncing targets you already banished back and forth between planes. Just spam it to your heart's content and then jump into the rift where you can kill all the enemies that are frozen. I now understand why they only allow Banish to be used from within the same plane as you're in as it is this mechanic that allows you to spam it on all your enemies. If they changed that, then it would totally kill his awesome new CC ability.

Limbo can now kill large groups of high level enemies all without ever taking a single shot.

Also, being able to effectively stay in the rift indefinitely is a very nice additional. I'm impartial so far to the dash method of transition so far. Most of the time it is a benefit to be able to dash into the rift as most of the time I am moving anyway. 5% of the time when I want to stand still while rift walking it is a minor annoyance. Overall it works well.

Let also not forget that on objective defense missions he now makes Frost obsolete.

While at first his mechanics were very jarring and difficult to use, this was mostly part of my own fault to attempting to use Limbo in the same ways as I was used to. He is now a completely new warframe and must be treated as such. He went from being a glass cannon damage dealer to an extremely effective hard CC warframe. Tailor your tactics around that style of play and you'll find success.

 

4 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

You can still play him the old way but you gotta use your 4 instead of your 1. This was done because the old Limbo was for 1v1 and people complained it didn't fit the game's horde style of enemies. They said he was too slow banishing 1 enemy at a time and then dueling them. I understand why DE did that to Banish. Its just too broken if Limbo is never vulnerable and it would over lap in function with his Cataclysm.

He's not just hard cc, though. He's also a nuker with how his Cataclysm scales. I've seen insane vids of one shotting entire squads of level 140 enemies by collapsing a max range Cataclysm. His Cataclysm is now also a proper barrier because of its simplified item pick up rules. And his passives gives him very high survivability with natural energy regeneration. He has survivability, defense, crowd control, support and damage. You can still use him for spy and rescue and now he's viable for excavations too.

 

3 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

Guys, play more of new Limbo before telling them to change things.

The interactions between his abilities are AMAZING and offer levels of synergy that no other frame aside from Nidus comes close to approaching, and even then the depth in which they work together add a certain complexity to the character that makes it feel VERY rewarding.

You cannot talk about any one of his abilities without including how they work with the others. A great example of this is his reworked Banish. At first glance, his Banish may seem to be clunky. Why do you have to be in the same plane as a target to banish them? But when you see how it interacts with the rest of his kit, you appreciate this fact. You see, he is given enhanced energy generation when in the rift, this encourages the use of his abilities... including his most expensive ability, his cataclysm. Using his cataclysm, you can send large amount of enemies into the rift. Using his 3, you can "prime" said targets, which allows you to prematurely end your cataclysm and force all primed targets to remain in the rift. From that point, any enemies not primed or not in the rift can be sent there via the use of his 1 then primed from outside the rift via the use of his 3.

There are so many interactions within his kit. His new 3 is amazing and is what allows many of these interactions to take place. His Stasis is exactly what he needed to be able to safely go in and out of the rift. His cataclysm before was hard to interact with, but with changes to his 3 becomes so simple and fluid. His new 1, while the change to it not drastic, made it work perfectly with his new kit. I, for one, love what DE did with the rework.

That said, I believe the damage numbers should be given another look. There is a particular combo that he can use, the 4-3-4 combo, that feels too powerful. For all you Limbo players out there, do what I did. You don't need power strength, just max out his range. Perhaps his efficiency. Go into a survival, I personally tested this in Mot and ODS (farming for Octavia), and spam 4-3-4. Teammates of mine were unable to touch enemies as they would instantaneously die upon coming into my massive range. I didn't have energy issues either, with max efficiency and his already superb energy generation, continuously upkeeping his 4 then using his 3, dropping his 4 then summoning another Cataclysm, rinse and repeat, was a very destructive force. Using this method, even an hour into ODS, the vast majority of enemies were dying instantly upon coming into my range (62.5m)

 

3 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

You guys need to actually play and test him before demanding so many nerfs. Play him, until you can manipulate all his mechanics moderately well.

 

It SOUNDS like a lot of you are hoping on for an hour or less trying things you USED to do and getting upset\confused because it doesnt function like that anymore so you want it back.

 

Banish is still useful and whoever says its not doesnt know what they are talking about. It can banish selected enemies from the rift and cause a 5m banish for every enemy ejected and they all get sucked back in.

 

You can resurge the enemies that missed too which is only helping you. 

Who cares if you banish allies with enemies? You should have your 2 up regardless so they can kill mobs and be in 0 danger if you accidentally catch your team.

Banish can also knock down waves of enemies for bonus damage and time stop them to keep it going until they are all dead.

His abilities are a little glitched atm but thats just new patch shenanigans.

The way his powers work now, especially his 4 collapsing finishing off all those hurt enemies are very fluid and functioning. 

 

 

Its like the Saryn change all over again

 

 

Everyone should read these before asking DE to revert changes.

[Voidforged]

16 minutes ago, Rythiman said:

FYI, prerework limbo was good but he couldn't install a room of level 140s. I like him how he is now.

Still can't if the level 140's are near an ancient healer, or ancient disruptor, or nullifier, or have any armor whatsoever. 

[Rythiman]

3 hours ago, Frenjo said:

Multiplane banish is needed to make it separate from cataclysm as a precision tool, lose the aoe and multiplane it and boom, banish is fixed.

In a game like Warframe, having a precision tool is not very useful. While you're asking for the old limbo back, so you can take out one enemy at a time, others have figured out how to make the new limbo kill rooms full of high levels enemies at once. Going back to single target would clearly make #1 less useful, not more useful.

[Shadu]

I have no idea if this has been said yet (didn't read the whole thread) but the Rift Surge augment mod: Rift Torrent scales with strength now. This leads to when having 226% strength and 20 enemies to 1356% damage increase and per enemy 67.8% damage increase.

So.. I'm slightly throwing away my max range no strength cataclysm build.

Can I add someone in game to mess around with with limbo builds? (or just whisper me in game)

[Kitsune_Legend]

The way each ability works is really dumb. As childish as that sounds, there are facts witnessed by most people who use Octavia.

Mallet: Line of sight. Really? This is really a no-brainer about how stupid this is. Sound bounces around, and it cannot be stressed enough how many forum posts on Octavia state this.

Resonator: Okay... cool. The Orokin just so happened to have militarized Grineer technology thousands of years before the Grineer went rogue? It's useful, at least to some extent.

Metronome: This is probably the worst ability of them all. As previously mentioned by a plethora of other players, it's obstructive and damn-near impossible to follow if you have lag or latency.

Amp: God, this isn't the worst, but it's extremely useless, in my point of view. Maybe others have had better results, but it doesn't even give a significant enough damage boost.

All Abilities Overall: Damage and duration are extremely low, especially for warframe abilities. It makes Octavia obsolete and useless. I'd much rather use Ember and do the exact same thing, but better. Maybe if each ability didn't last a measly 5-10 seconds for base duration, then it might've been tolerable. Instead of a time limit, it should just consume energy over time.

Overall, the only thing that makes Octavia appealing is her mandachord. However, even then, the tunes people normally make and/or share will get old fast. There's only so much that can be done with 16 notes on a terrible 5 note scale. 

Okay, so an EDIT to my OPINIONS, apparently I haven't been using the abilities correctly to inflict damage as much as I can, but the duration still needs work.

Edited March 26, 2017 by LambentRose

[DreamsmithJane]

35 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

See, I don't understand this part about about Limbo's rift surge. How do enemies remain surged after they pass back into the material plane? As soon as they step back over, the surge activates and sends them back into the rift, so they can't feasibly die while surged and outside the rift.

I wonder about this as well. I know it's possible for enemies to become charged outside the rift, because I've seen them walking around in the material plane with those energy bands on them, but I have no idea how it happened, and that description doesn't explain it. Some clarity on this point would be nice.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

17 minutes ago, Voidforged said:

Still can't if the level 140's are near an ancient healer, or ancient disruptor, or nullifier, or have any armor whatsoever. 

Ancient Healers you say? Nullies maybe, but how about nothing BUT Ancient Healers?

He's gonna get nerfed by next week.

Edited March 26, 2017 by (PS4)mahoshonenfox

[Frenjo]

15 minutes ago, Rythiman said:

In a game like Warframe, having a precision tool is not very useful. While you're asking for the old limbo back, so you can take out one enemy at a time, others have figured out how to make the new limbo kill rooms full of high levels enemies at once. Going back to single target would clearly make #1 less useful, not more useful.

I'm asking for one skill to be changed, the super ultra op other stuff will be there, it doesn't hurt to have banish actually made useful all the time rather than situationally where it will never be used because cataclysm is just far better. Two different skills for two different jobs.

EDIT: Basically, I'm probably never going to tap number 1, so in a way thank you DE for saving my fingers.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Frenjo