Harrow feedback and discussion

[(PSN)MrNishi]

On 5/26/2017 at 0:46 PM, Knight_Ex said:

 

True but its not them getting free energy for nothing, they still have to get the headshots to reap the benefits for the energy proc, so in that  sense they might be ok with it applying to channel abilities.

They changed ability so that normal non-headshots grant energy and Headshots grant bonus (more) energy.

Sadly, the kill still being a requirement for energy replenishment means he will not scale like Trinity. High Level Ancient Healer Auras (lvl 200+)will drastically show that Trinity does a far better job than Harrow for energy replenishment.

Hoping they lose the kill requirement. (I still think it should function more like We'll of Life where there is a Damage Conversion limit but per target for the ability duration. Aka so much damage from shots only grants a Max of X energy per enemy)

Would still promote killing enemies as you would run out of Energy sources unless you recast the ability.

[Tesseract7777]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

They changed ability so that normal non-headshots grant energy and Headshots grant bonus (more) energy.

Sadly, the kill still being a requirement for energy replenishment means he will not scale like Trinity. High Level Ancient Healer Auras (lvl 200+)will drastically show that Trinity does a far better job than Harrow for energy replenishment.

Hoping they lose the kill requirement. (I still think it should function more like We'll of Life where there is a Damage Conversion limit but per target for the ability duration. Aka so much damage from shots only grants a Max of X energy per enemy)

Would still promote killing enemies as you would run out of Energy sources unless you recast the ability.

So basically: 

Just hitting them grants a little energy. 

Headshotting but not killing grants more energy

Killing, but not with headshot grants a little more energy than previous

Killing with headshot grants full energy multiplier

Would that be a good compromise? I feel like this could make it scale better, for those times when he is struggling to kill enemies in one or two hits anymore, even with well placed headshots

[Evanescent]

1 hour ago, Xekrin said:

Well depending on the duration of the triggering ability, I didn't pay much attention to the stats as they'll change, but yeah it could maybe trigger, linger for a bit then fade, and trigger again?  Base that on headshots or whatever.  It'd be incentive to get headshots, since we rarely need them for actual killing blows until late late end game.

Maybe to sustain it you would need to make kills? You'll be killing for thurible anyways so it fits in nicely.

[Music4Therapy]

8 hours ago, AdunSaveMe said:

Why should something as important and basic as a cleanse be limited to one single Warframe?

2 actually. Nezha does the same with his 1

[texrei]

I hate him. The priest theme, the silly censer, the silly skills animation. It fits WOW maybe, but not a sci-fi game which Warframe was once and i want it back.

 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

8 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

So basically: 

Just hitting them grants a little energy. 

Headshotting but not killing grants more energy

Killing, but not with headshot grants a little more energy than previous

Killing with headshot grants full energy multiplier

Would that be a good compromise? I feel like this could make it scale better, for those times when he is struggling to kill enemies in one or two hits anymore, even with well placed headshots

Yes 

And strongly concur it would allow better scaling.

Even better if it used predefined energy cap per target regardless of health, much like how Energy Vampire is consistent regardless of target. (Same amount of energy per cast)

Needs to be consistent to be a Trinity Side-grade.

Wondering if Harrow will have excess energy or health being converted towards overshields as standard?

[Rakosta_Kai]

16 hours ago, Rekkou said:

But making it a core concept for a priest warframe when it's not presence on warframe like Mesa or Ivara will make it out of place.

No it doesn't.

Likewise, it's a feature of the mechanics (given that Harrow has no meaningful DD, it's a fair trade-off), not the whole mechanic and feeds the whole group not just the frame itself. 

You are, in essence, saying that you want to have your cake and someone else's... Minus the someone else.

... That's faulty logic.

I can take your argument and assert that

• All invisibility mechanics should lack timers because Ivara's does
• Any frame using Akimbo pistols should be able to enter Peacemaker like Mesa.

None of which is the case presently... So arguing that Harrow's abilities don't fit him because they should be elsewhere likewise makes no objective sense.

Lastly, all frames enjoy the headshot bonuses/effects when he's in the group, not to mention the addition of conditional mods that do the same thing so this argument is pointless.

 

Harrow's problems are going to be much simpler and more insidious than all that anyway...

He's going to force groups to actually play the game as opposed to cheesing it if they want to see benefits from him.

Area wipers lose heals and bonus crit.

Area CC lowers bonus crit.

He runs the risk of being the first frame folks will complain about without realizing that they are actually the bad players in question.

 

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Padre_Akais

[Rekkou]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

-snip

Yes, it does because i was talking about theme relevance above all

And so far all i see, the real risk of Harrow is that he will be played by pretentious people who will dismiss every feedback with "hurrdurr you just suck at headshot".

[Tesseract7777]

2 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Yes 

And strongly concur it would allow better scaling.

Even better if it used predefined energy cap per target regardless of health, much like how Energy Vampire is consistent regardless of target. (Same amount of energy per cast)

Needs to be consistent to be a Trinity Side-grade.

Wondering if Harrow will have excess energy or health being converted towards overshields as standard?

See that last part is where I worry. I didn't see anything about that, and his ONLY way to get back shields (with his own abilities, I'm not counting Guardian, Arcane Barrier, Arcane Aegis, Raksa Protect and other such things), is to spam Condemn, which means he is already basically locked into needing a high efficiency build, which can hurt duration. And I don't like being forced to do that one thing every time I want to get my overshields up. 

I think he needs some other way to get back shields or even give shields to the team. I wouldn't necessarily mind if it came as an augment, but he needs some additional way besides Condemn. Ideally it would be part of an ability, like say Pact, which doesn't feel like it does enough. Why not make it so headshot kills/kills/damage or what have you, scaling similar to thurible, would give back shields to allies in range during the critical chance portion of pact.

Or do it as an augment, where thurible also restores shields to Harrow and allies in range, scaling the same way the energy restore does. 

And I think they need to at least increase the range of thurible. It's great that it follows him, but the ten meter base difference between that and EV makes a huge difference, even if his potential for getting energy was closer to equal, that range is a big issue. When you take mods into account, ten meters is huge. With that range difference alone, most people won't want to choose him over her for team energy renewal. I mean, on top of that the ability already requires you to take time charging it up, and you can't just EV an enemy like with Trin, you have to get KILLS. And even if they change that to get back energy on hits, and just give scaling energy increases based on kill/headshot and buff it similar to how you describe as to making it more like EV as well, it still requires a lot more setup than Trin, for ten meters less base range. 

[(XBOX)VanHaz]

13 hours ago, Evanescent said:

While I agree that there could be a risk to overlap with Oberon, I would offer the defense that he would prove a kind of mirror to Oberon where one cleanses status and heals, and the other replenishes energy while cleansing.

The healing effect seems reasonable to me. Oberon is essentially the paladin frame (sort of) and with harrow being the "priestframe" slight overlap wouldn't be too bad, so long as they are individually distinguished, which their kits otherwise do. Plus it would make for great synergy with Oberon imo

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, Rekkou said:

Yes, it does because i was talking about theme relevance above all

Theme relevance, as an argument, doesn't hold water either.

Headshot damage has bonus crit attached to it...Everyone has access to it (sorta... wonky hitboxes being what wonky hitboxes are). Harrow's will do more damage.

Perhaps the Almighty is guiding Harrow's hand?

Perhaps, he alone, remembers the face of his father?

Perhaps, each round is blessed and does more damage to critical areas?

You don't know... You just want it on a different frame instead.

Thy shalt not covet thy neighbor's cake.

That said, You have every right to your opinion... But respect that it's your opinion as opposed to objective fact.

I personally, wouldn't have bothered to respond at all save for the fact that you keep blurring the difference between the two.

3 hours ago, Rekkou said:

And so far all i see, the real risk of Harrow is that he will be played by pretentious people who will dismiss every feedback with "hurrdurr you just suck at headshot".

Well, if the feedback is, "Durr why should a priest get a headshot mechanic?" it's kinda hard not to expect it to be scoffed at.

What I would call pretentious in that scenario is assuming that such an assertion should be considered feedback at all tbh.

...That's just my opinion though. 

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Padre_Akais

[Music4Therapy]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)WolfBlade said:

The healing effect seems reasonable to me. Oberon is essentially the paladin frame (sort of) and with harrow being the "priestframe" slight overlap wouldn't be too bad, so long as they are individually distinguished, which their kits otherwise do. Plus it would make for great synergy with Oberon imo

Actually, I see it as now the game has 3  "true" supports to choose from now.

The frame Harrow is looking to compete directly with is actually Trinity, aside from the headshot gimmicks their kits are actually very similar in that the best parts of their kits involve either restoring HP or Energy.

Also, Harrow provides no damage reduction to the squad outside of his Invulnerability provided by his 4. Trinity offers 75% DR through blessing. Oberon is a mix of both, being able to raise the EHP of all allies substantially and providing brief periods of invincibility via Phoenix Renewal (squadmates shouldn't be dying more than once every 90 seconds, btw) and keeping allies on his HG immune to status effects.

I'm curious to see whether Harrow or Trinity will be the meta energy battery.

I'm interested to see how 2 Harrow would work together, if they can remain invincible by timing their 4 properly or if they don't stack.

[AlphaTheFinalBalance]

I'm just sad that the thread isn't named "Harrowing Feedback Thread" It just seems fitting for this forum tbh. xD

[(PSN)MrNishi]

7 hours ago, texrei said:

I hate him. The priest theme, the silly censer, the silly skills animation. It fits WOW maybe, but not a sci-fi game which Warframe was once and i want it back.

 

Wouldn't Harrow technically be another Gunslinger frame?

But more Vash Stampede/Pumpkin Scissors/Trinity Blood Themed versus Mesa's Wild West/Equilibrium Gun kata themed

[Tesseract7777]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Wouldn't Harrow technically be another Gunslinger frame?

But more Vash Stampede/Pumpkin Scissors/Trinity Blood Themed versus Mesa's Wild West/Equilibrium Gun kata themed

Nicholas D. Wolfwood frame lol. Thats the kind of priest I think of when I think of Harrow.

 

Lmao thinking of wolfwood now. Someone asks him why his gun stuffed giant cross is so heavy and he responds: "that's because its so full of mercy". He always cracked me up.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Tesseract7777

[residente]

8 hours ago, texrei said:

I hate him. The priest theme, the silly censer, the silly skills animation. It fits WOW maybe, but not a sci-fi game which Warframe was once and i want it back.

 

Octavia and her cringeworthy dancing emotes don't belong on this game either, but guess what? Everyone and his mother is using them. You think you have seen anything and then you see a rhino doing a night club wh*re dance.

DE doesn't care about what fits and what doesn't anymore.

[Tesseract7777]

2 minutes ago, residente said:

Octavia and her cringeworthy dancing emotes don't belong on this game either, but guess what? Everyone and his mother is using them. You think you have seen anything and then you see a rhino doing a night club wh*re dance.

DE doesn't care about what fits and what doesn't anymore.

They might as well have called the quest: "my little warframe, octavia is magic", meh on all that lol.

[(XBOX)VanHaz]

1 hour ago, Music4Therapy said:

Actually, I see it as now the game has 3  "true" supports to choose from now.

The frame Harrow is looking to compete directly with is actually Trinity, aside from the headshot gimmicks their kits are actually very similar in that the best parts of their kits involve either restoring HP or Energy.

Also, Harrow provides no damage reduction to the squad outside of his Invulnerability provided by his 4. Trinity offers 75% DR through blessing. Oberon is a mix of both, being able to raise the EHP of all allies substantially and providing brief periods of invincibility via Phoenix Renewal (squadmates shouldn't be dying more than once every 90 seconds, btw) and keeping allies on his HG immune to status effects.

I'm curious to see whether Harrow or Trinity will be the meta energy battery.

I'm interested to see how 2 Harrow would work together, if they can remain invincible by timing their 4 properly or if they don't stack.

True, he does have a lot in common with trinity. As far as energy generation, my suspicion is that trinity will hold her place there, though with the similarities between both Oberon and harrow, and trinity and harrow, they will maintain a balance so that harrow isn't completely outperformed by either, or ousting either. I do think however his headshot niche will add some otherwise fun synergy to frames like mesa and volt. 

[(PSN)MrNishi]

15 hours ago, residente said:

Octavia and her cringeworthy dancing emotes don't belong on this game either, but guess what? Everyone and his mother is using them. You think you have seen anything and then you see a rhino doing a night club wh*re dance.

DE doesn't care about what fits and what doesn't anymore.

I take Cephalon Simaris initial approach I need response to Cephalon Suda & Octavia: Flawed 

I cannot Deny Octavia's ability strength: At least sound can be muted and she can be cloaked. 

(I have a feeling the Metronome Augment will make Octavia's current self buffs (Opera, Nocturne, Forte, Vivace) be radial AoE)*

Geoff did a 180° and let dancing into Warframe.

[Evanescent]

Can't wait for pink Harrows doing pendulum nartas in relays, eh

[texrei]

17 hours ago, (PS4)MrNishi said:

Wouldn't Harrow technically be another Gunslinger frame?

But more Vash Stampede/Pumpkin Scissors/Trinity Blood Themed versus Mesa's Wild West/Equilibrium Gun kata themed

But his abilities are not even the best for performing headshots... He only benefits from it. He seems boring and bringing nothing new to the gameplay. I'd glad to be wrong, i will try him anyway. There were many brilliant concepts (like hacker frame, which for i'm waiting so long), why not to take some of this ideas and bring them to reality? 

23 hours ago, residente said:

Octavia and her cringeworthy dancing emotes don't belong on this game either, but guess what? Everyone and his mother is using them. You think you have seen anything and then you see a rhino doing a night club wh*re dance.

DE doesn't care about what fits and what doesn't anymore.

Octavia is on other side. Her theme is more convincing. Don't you believe in power of music? It can give pleasure and it can hurt. Yes, her animations and look are weird, but she's fun to use. Harrow is the same level of ridiculousness as Inaros with his coffin

[residente]

1 hour ago, texrei said:

 Don't you believe in power of music? It can give pleasure and it can hurt.

She only hurts. The music you can make with the Mandacord is terrible, gives me second hand embarassment when I hear it from another player.

Meanwhile the Simon says room in Lua where you get one of her parts has some of the most beautiful sounds I've heard in a videogame.

[PsiWarp]

7 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Can't wait for pink Harrows doing pendulum nartas in relays, eh

Can't wait to see 8 Harrow Raid flagellating themselves.

[(PSN)Darkened_Seraph]

On April 11, 2017 at 7:21 PM, SenorClipClop said:

I've really been hoping for a Monk-class Warframe. This frame would employ melee combat (possibly unarmed or at least Fist-weapon benefits) high mobility, quick buffs/shields and a focus on using combos. Something that feels a little like a cross between Atlas, Valkyr and Fisticuffs Volt.

I though wukong was a monk, because of the whole monkey master theme

[(PSN)Darkened_Seraph]

I would like to see a male vampire themed Warframe that could use both shadow and blood magic, and maybe even a beast/werewolf themed frame as well.