Oberon Rework discussion and feedback (including feedback post prime time #161)

[cookieknife]

1 hour ago, RunningTree3 said:

Reckoning could get inspired by Blazing Chakram. Let there be some extra duration after casting to kill the affected enemy through any means for health orbs.

definitely. even that would be better id love that. it would keep his utility up even without renewal

[FelanGrey]

Have some idea for Oberon's passive.
As Oberon's ability design is based around the idea of a Paladin or Druid, why don't give him dual passive?
I suggest : from Paladin side give him 50-75% chance to resist statuses; from Druid side - give 2-3 instant revives for pets, and if he'll took a pet for mission - he would have + 20-30% strength or + to armor.

Edited April 23, 2017 by FelanGrey

[JoshuaJongQR]

Hi don't main oberon or even use him and I think many warframe players will most probably agree with me 

Firstly, the utility provided the far to limited. Smite bounces around and is mostly effective in narrow hallways. Hallowed ground has too little range that limits oberon's movement to the extend gets him killed in high lvl missions cuz the status resistance comes at a cost of limited movement and bombards or scorches will have a fun time. Renewal has a good amount of healing but takes too long to reach teamates. Reckoning is op and u derpowered at the same time. Anything below lvl 30 dies instantly with the right build but anything higher ot becomes redundant.

Secondly, even if the utility is limited at least have some synergy but oberon doesn't which means it functions far too indepentdantly and does not scales.

Thirdly, a far too situational passive. It is nice on certain lvls but redundant in most.

Considering I have already seen DE's possible rework on oberon here are my ideas on it please dont state that I am just saying these ideas because DE already gave a rough idea on the rework. These are my ideas on how the abilities should be reworked.

1. Smite

Three ways they can fix this. Firstly, upon hitting the first enemy and spliting up later. Make the projectiles seek out other enemies and since it seeks out means it will not hit as many as before if used in a narrow hallway but maybe make it so that it will scale based on enemy lvl or prox radiation or knockdown enemies.

Secondly, make it still bounce randomly but increase the move speed by a lot and make the projectile last longer with power duration and to reward hitting enemies in an open area make the projectile give a certain protection to oberon when the durations end and do an animation that the projectiles returns to oberon granting him a dmg negation based on the range interval upon hitting an enemy.

Thirdly, shoot a projectile that does an aoe woth flat dmg but will get a debuff in which the enemies affected will take more dmg from his abilities or from any source.

2. Hallowed ground

Two ways they can fix this. Firstly, give it a much bigger radius at a fixed position that gives an armour debuff to enemies and enemies affectes will either take more dmg from smite and reckoning or synergize with renewal while still providing the same status immunity.

Seondly, have a smaller radius but follows oberon wherever he goes. And the radius will provide teamates in the aoe the status immunity. To reward oberons which looks like he is going to gore his enemies up close and personal, make it so that enemies on the radius will deal maybe 80 percent less dmg to oberon and take more dmg. This encourages close quarter combat.

3. Renewal

Two ways they can fix this. Firstly, make it an instant heal, and make it heal an amount that scales with power strength. It should heal any teamtes regardless of their position. The synergy with hallowed ground is that any teamate buffed by hallowed ground will receive twice the healing and get an armour buff till the end of the duration.

Secondly, make it emit a wave like novas 4th skill and gives an armour buff and healing over time. To reward players for sticking together, any teamate affected by hallowed ground will get twice the healing but also get a dmg reduction.

4. Reckoning

I am fine with this ability being left alone honestly. Don't make it scale but give an effective cc at high lvls. Considering DE made the mistake with limbo just to nerf him later. Maybe consider stunning all enemies on the ground for a set or scalable duration.

Or they could make it scale. But please dont make it too op or not a nerf will be incoming. Make it give an armour debuff that stacks with his other abilities, at the same time deal dmg based on how many enemies are caught in the aoe or make the dmg individual based on enemy lvls.

Fun factor

Maybe allow effects from hallowed ground and reckoning stack with other oberon squadmates. This will coin the term 'broberon' better. I have a feeling broberon squad will be op but of course comes at the cost of losing versertality from many warframes.

Overall this will make oberon a well rounded awesome frame to play with.

As for the paasive DE's idea is good enough.

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

Honestly I just have a Giant Leaf Afro on my wishlist for him.

[Carnage2K4]

5 hours ago, cookieknife said:

 that passive is absolutely horrid

I actually like that passive, Should be a good group buff.

Edited April 23, 2017 by Carnage2K4

[Azamagon]

Since my post got destroyed, I'm reposting it in here (with some mild alterations), in the hope of SOMEONE liking the ideas:

 

 Since Oberon's getting a rework, along with a new passive, I was thinking of keeping his kit almost entirely intact, including his passive, but tweaking the kit to just make it WAY more versatile and synergistic!

That, while also keeping him as our "Fae Paladruid"!

On to the ideas!

Stats - Armor buffed a whole bunch, like up to 300 or so?

Passive - Enchant - Oberon can permanently convert up to 2 animalistic or robotic non-boss enemies (this counts as killing them, for the sake of not breaking missions like Defence etc), by getting within 15 meters of them, while aiming/blocking and looking at them, for about 3 seconds straight. Enchanted enemies have to die before you can convert new ones.
Convertable enemies are:
Grineer - Hyekkas, Drakhs, Rollers
Corpus - All robotic enemies (except Bursas, and obviously Bosses)
Infested - Chargers, Infested Moas (both types), Infested Ospreys
Widlife - Any
Corrupted - Same enemies as on the regular factions. So, mainly the robots.

Reason: Why animals and ROBOTS? Well, I was thinking that he could only convert the enemies who had the least "sentience", and robots seems like they have a low form of sentience in them. And you know, because Void Space Magic :)
Also, this fits for him as a Faerie King (with the whole enchanting / kidnapping lore), as a Druid (as an animal whisperer) and partly also as a Paladin (in a "converting" kind of sense)

Smite - On top of what it already does: Main target is also weakened for X duration, suffering 100% more damage taken from all sources and gains VERY high aggro (which can help to redirect your Enchanted allies to attack it too). Projectile-struck enemies also suffer more damage taken, but only 50%. These damage bonuses are affected by Power Strength!

Strength: Now also affects the damage-amp potency
Range: Same as now
Duration: Now also affects the damage-amp duration
Augment: Unchanged

Reason: This gives Smite a generally versatile use, but it's also something that would help out your team and Enchant minions to focus fire specfic enemies. It might be a bit bland, but imo it fits way better for the rest of his kit than by being a purely damage-dealing ability, as per DE's suggestions.

Hallowed Ground - First, armorbonus is removed (or rather, moved to Renewal). Second, Oberon can now also cast it as an "aura" on himself, if heldcast, but this version is circular and with max 4 meter radius. Tapcast remains the same.
Oberon and his allies (including Enchanted ones!) on the patch gets a buff which makes them immune to status effects and gain a 60/65/70/75% damage-reduction effect, but the damage which is reduced is also reflected back at the enemies with mildly amplified strength (like +25/50/75/100% amp?). This bonus lingers on Oberon and allies for X seconds after leaving a patch.
Enemies who are on a patch, on top of being hurt, also get gradually debuffed (call it "Hallow Roots"?), which causes them to quickly be slowed down (but only movement), for more and more slowdown the longer they are on (additively), to the point of becoming entirely immobilized if they stay too long on it (imagine the flames also being kind of "growing root"-esque). If enemies are knocked down on the patch, they will take way longer to stand up too (fighting the root-esque flames)

Strength: Affects the damage-reflect amplification (but not the damage reduction) + Damage over time + Slowdown power (per tick)
Radius: Affects size of the ground, just like now.
Duration: Duration of the ground and the lingering buff effect (and the Hallow Roots effect on enemies).
Augment: Changed into "Hallowed Growth" - When an enemy dies on a Hallowed Ground, the size of the HG is increased by 5/10/15/20% (capped at doubled size, in both length/width and radius), and its duration is increased by 1/2/3/4 seconds. Works for both the patch and aura version!

Reason: This make Hallowed Ground your main protective ability on yourself and allies, as well as a soft-CC ability. The "reflect" thing is something that fits for both his Paladin AND Druid style. The roots fits his Druid style. Also, keeping enemies in place is great for your enchanted allies to easily hit them!
Further, holding enemies still and/or down make them easy targets to Enchant with his passive (and doing so releases them from the slowdown effects instantly).

Renewal - Massively simplified: Now is a singlecost ability (like 50 energy?) and creates a wave (like M.Prime), which can heal and buff ANY ally (not just players). Allies affected get an instant amount of healing, a healing over time, and a FLAT amount of armor. This buff is displayed by small wisp-like orbs orbitting the target, and it is NOT dispelled if the target reaches full health. The wave has unlimited range, but power range affects the travelling speed.

Strength: Affects initial healing, HoT and armor buff power
Range: Affects wave travelling speed
Duration: Affects the duration of the buff + HoT (now works normally instead of inversely so more duration = more healing, due to extended timer)
Augment: Unchanged (cuz now it would work fine with the duration)

Reason: Just fixes most of its annoying issues, really. The armor buff is just to give it a bit of defensive boosting for Oberon and his allies (since Hallowed Ground got a different, stronger defensive bonus).

Reckoning - Now a 2-stage ability: First cast = Lift enemies up (for max 3/4/5/6 seconds). Second cast (or upon expiration) = Slam enemies down (This second cast is not onehanded, but it allows you to move). Enemies lifted are instantly debuffed (for as long as they are lifted + 8/10/12/15 seconds after). This debuff causes the enemies to deal 10/15/20/25% of their damage taken, in a moderate radius around them (i.e., they become splash-damage targets! Note: This also works with damage-reflection, such as that from Hallowed Ground! However, it doesn't splash from other Reckoning-splash, to prevent infinite damage-loops). Also, if they are killed while still debuffed, they release a healing pulse in a moderate radius to heal nearby allies (includes your Enchant minions!), and possibly still spawn a health orb?
However, the confusion and blind-effects are removed (don't shoot me!), considering its improved hard-CC and scalability (through the splash-damage debuff) would be more than good enough. Smite is what you use for proccing the confusion (and the blind was always nigh unusable)

Strength: Affects damage just like now, but also the strength of the healing pulse. Splash-damage percentage is NOT affected (to not make it potentially absurd in power).
Range: Affects radius of the cast and the healing pulses.
Duration: Affects duration of the lift and debuff
Augment: Could be the same as now (but with the effects of the new Hallowed Ground)

Reason: This gives it a bit more CC-potency, and better healing potential (which would help your Enchant minions more than anything else, but also any meleeing ally/Oberon). Its debuff would also add something unique (rather than just being a damaging smaller-range Chaos), without making the rest of his kit obsolete, instead heavily synergizing with his kit. The loss of Radiation-procs might feel sad, but remember: He is FAR tankier now (both with higher armor at base, and with both HG and Renewal upping your survivability a big bunch) and the potential hard-CC improvement of Reckoning hopefully makes up for it too.
Also, holding enemies up make them easy targets to Enchant with his passive (and doing so releases them from the lift-up and debuff instantly).

 

So, potential synergies?

Reckoning = Enemy will splash its damage taken onto other nearby enemies. Add the Smite = The damage taken is now amplified. Now, add Hallowed Ground, which makes you tank better, then reflect damage taken: That is now also splashed and amplified! Throw in Renewal to keep yourself from dieing from being attacked.

Or:  You have your Passive minions, attacking enemies with amplified damage (via Smite) and that damage then splashed (via Reckoning). The minions can then reflect THEIR damage taken back at enemies (via getting the HG buff), along with being kept up from heals (via Renewal and killing Reckoning-debuffed enemies)

Or this simple one: Hallowed Ground makes enemies slower to stand up and both Smite and Reckoning can knock enemies down.

Overall, loads of synergy and playstyles would be viable with these changes. This also changes his theme into more of a tank-support with mild nuking, rather than a nukeheavy support, which I think people won't mind (I think it fits better for a Fae Paladruid :P)

Thoughts? :)

[redeyedtreefrog]

2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

-snip-

I really dislike the idea of having to tap 4 twice just to make renewal work like it does now (and currently, it works GREAT). I already have to do that with renewal, and I don't want oberon's kit to start resembling ability combos from popular mmos or some kind of rhythm game like octavia's compulsive teabagging. It also makes reckoning seem like a sort of sidegrade to bastille, which makes it seem a bit... underpowered in the "righteous fury" department. Just my thoughts.

Also, the only way that I'd willingly let go of reckoning's guaranteed rad proc is if the guaranteed rad proc were transferred to hallowed ground, like it seems they're doing in the devstream. Even then, I'll still be a bit sad to see it go.

 

Again, currently all DE needs to do is to change renewal based on popular demand, as opposed to trying to tie it to any of his other abilities like they seem to be doing now. (and again, renewal is currently on an infinite range so that its bleedout reduction can actually be effective....)

[Talvu]

3 hours ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

I really dislike the idea of having to tap 4 twice just to make renewal work like it does now (and currently, it works GREAT). I already have to do that with renewal, and I don't want oberon's kit to start resembling ability combos from popular mmos or some kind of rhythm game like octavia's compulsive teabagging. It also makes reckoning seem like a sort of sidegrade to bastille, which makes it seem a bit... underpowered in the "righteous fury" department. Just my thoughts.

Also, the only way that I'd willingly let go of reckoning's guaranteed rad proc is if the guaranteed rad proc were transferred to hallowed ground, like it seems they're doing in the devstream. Even then, I'll still be a bit sad to see it go.

 

Again, currently all DE needs to do is to change renewal based on popular demand, as opposed to trying to tie it to any of his other abilities like they seem to be doing now. (and again, renewal is currently on an infinite range so that its bleedout reduction can actually be effective....)

Actually what they need to do is fix hallowed ground, there's nothing wrong with how Renewal currently works, popular demand be damned. If they fixed that one ability then his kit would be so much better.

 

[malekas]

28 minutes ago, Talvu said:

Actually what they need to do is fix hallowed ground, there's nothing wrong with how Renewal currently works, popular demand be damned. If they fixed that one ability then his kit would be so much better.

 

It's a convoluted mess of an ability that actively works against itself. How can you say there's nothing wrong with it?

 

It has an initial cost plus a constant drain. It has travel time before healing allies, meaning you have to be proactive instead of reactive. You can't be proactive because when the target reaches full health the ability stops. It heals faster if you have less duration, which building for screws with other abilities.

 

It's a mess. And to add insult to injury, DE's rework is nerfing the ability by limiting the range.

[Urlan]

15 hours ago, FelanGrey said:

Have some idea for Oberon's passive.
As Oberon's ability design is based around the idea of a Paladin or Druid, why don't give him dual passive?
I suggest : from Paladin side give him 50-75% chance to resist statuses; from Druid side - give 2-3 instant revives for pets, and if he'll took a pet for mission - he would have + 20-30% strength or + to armor.

Sure, that sounds like a good idea.

[SamuraiPizza]

17 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

I main Oberon. My lineup is 'Oberon, Excal, Nidus, then I think Chroma, Loki, Limbo.' I am crazy enough to take the JOAT into sorties. I stick with him in spite of there being objectively better frames. I realize this rework will be the one time he gets looked at for a long time, years if not longer. So I want this to be the best possible rework given the idea we're after buffing what he has as opposed to gut and replace.

Given these facts, I am going to be harsh.

Testing Environment

The build used had Blind Rage + Intensify with a six forma Oberon. This is not a good 'let's show an in progress build' since that is basically a fully maxed out Oberon. This does not give a neutral testbed when showcasing range, duration, power, and surviveability.

Test level was the first five minutes of a survival that is within the level range that Oberon is 'Fine' pre-rework.

That Rebecca was using strength mods and enemies weren't dropping like flies is concerning, because that means by default the power strength is a lot weaker.
On the plus side that means Oberon is a lot less energy hungry than depicted, but when the 'OMG IT NOW SCALES' power isn't murdering enemies at the start of survival against enemies that are radiation weak? OK Fine things were dying but still... This is with a power build.

The other major problem is it had a fairly confined layout so we didn't have a good look at the sort of arch Hallowed Ground would have. We just saw it FILL an area, which admittedly is a lot nicer than current, but we didn't see the overal shape and range. This feeds back into 'we should have started with a 100% across the board Oberon.

Specific issues with Powers:

Smite: Information on how it scales would be nice. There is also a fear the rollout will happen, then devs will go 'oh that's TOO nice. break out the nerf bat' ala Limbo.

Hallowed Ground: The rework seems to want to use Hallowed Ground as a Tentpole everything else hangs off of. I'm concerned that Oberon is only really effective when facing anything on hallowed ground and he's very very lacking without. As much as I want hallowed ground synergies I want to be able to use powers and they actually DO something without having to key macro a bunch of stuff.

Renewal: Range nerf, Still shuts down when the heal is done regardless of duration, no word on if the wonky duration relationship is fixed, and Why does the person being healed need to be on hallowed ground? Why can't Oberon be on the hallowed ground and if ally steps off they still get armor buff? Also need to know if Renewal will heal allies/objectives since it's a pulse wave instead of healballs.

Reckoning: Does it still proc radiation? What will it do when not using hallowed ground vs hallowed ground?

Passive: Will there be anything to help sentinels? Is it companion centric? It's not a terrible passive as such goes.
Positives:

Because I want to not have this post be all doom and gloom.

Smite: Scaling of any sort is nice. Smite the ballista or bombard and everything around it will die. Smite the Well of Life pInata and EVERYTHING EVER will die.
Hallowed Ground: Appears to have a lot more range, and seems to have a purpose in that you can hurl the cone out and the bunch of incoming enemies are now wanting to hurt eachother.
Renewal: The ONLY thing that might be good is if it will heal allies, companions/snetinels, and objectives.
Rackoning: If it ain't broke donw't fix it. Other than the question on if it still radprocs, it isn't worse than it was before.

Passive: Not a GREAT passive, but it's going to help pet users and not cause waves to stall out by that one kavat that hasn't died.

I'm pessimistic at how 'natural' this rework/reshuffle/balance pass will feel, but I'd put at worst he'll be a C instead of a D, and I'm thinking after we find out more details on the how of each ability he might even make it into a solid B. Still loses out to specialists, but able to stand on his own without having to constantly squeeze every ounce out of what you can do as a player.

THIS!

People need to be spamming the living crap outta this post.

 

[Talvu]

4 hours ago, malekas said:

It's a convoluted mess of an ability that actively works against itself. How can you say there's nothing wrong with it?

 

It has an initial cost plus a constant drain. It has travel time before healing allies, meaning you have to be proactive instead of reactive. You can't be proactive because when the target reaches full health the ability stops. It heals faster if you have less duration, which building for screws with other abilities.

 

It's a mess. And to add insult to injury, DE's rework is nerfing the ability by limiting the range.

You can't be proactive with Bless either, also it has to have travel time otherwise it would be infinitely better than any other heal due to its current infinite range. Actually it heals faster if you build for more duration, negative duration spreads it out. Also the fact that it stops when full health is reached means either the incoming damage is too low to be a threat, that the targeted player's health wasn't low enough to warrant the heal yet, or that the heal is higher than the targeted frame has health.

Also when people die from full health it's usually because either they are playing a very squishy frame, or that they did something remarkably stupid. In both cases there's not much any health restoration method can do about that.

Also Phoenix Renewal is a flawed augment, it would be a lot better if it worked more like Soul survivor rather than try and copy Wukong's Defy.

[Urlan]

29 minutes ago, Talvu said:

You can't be proactive with Bless either, also it has to have travel time otherwise it would be infinitely better than any other heal due to its current infinite range. Actually it heals faster if you build for more duration, negative duration spreads it out. Also the fact that it stops when full health is reached means either the incoming damage is too low to be a threat, that the targeted player's health wasn't low enough to warrant the heal yet, or that the heal is higher than the targeted frame has health.

Also when people die from full health it's usually because either they are playing a very squishy frame, or that they did something remarkably stupid. In both cases there's not much any health restoration method can do about that.

Also Phoenix Renewal is a flawed augment, it would be a lot better if it worked more like Soul survivor rather than try and copy Wukong's Defy.

Renewal currently has infinite range controlled of course by the fact it drains energy during the travel time; while its the second best heal to Blessing, its often considered quite low on the list of powerful moves currently. Blessing gives damage resistance that if you have built for duration can make you quite tanky to damage which can than be cast again to heal and re-apply the damage resist. This is proactive as it can be used as a buff and as a reactive heal. Renewal has never really worked like that, but experienced Oberon players would often throw a Renewal before the allies got damaged if they expected violence due the travel time requiring preparation to get heals to allies in time.

In my experience, people get one-shot due to enemies having more damage than the warframe has survivability. Having to be invincible or refusing to die like Wukong isn't really durable but rather ignoring enemies similar to invisibility. Oberon usually is going to be getting shot at, as are many teams he is used with; I think the proposed changes outlined in the prime time lean more towards the limited mobility playstyle of Hallowed Ground that players were wanting to move away from rather than double down on.

Would have to agree that Phoenix Renewal is an interesting idea that might be better served being reworked into a Soul Survivor or different angle as it feels that the augment is not desired to work in its current manifestation.

[Turtlemancer]

The more I look at the Prime Time footage the more I think this rework might not be so bad.

Still, at this point I feel they need to pick between three options.

A. Keep the Travel time but make Renewal a flat heal, making sure to give the armor buff its own duration. Then tie Phoenix Renewal to that. This is where I am leaning right now because I feel like it is more likely to happen. It will be a big change that I am sure many will not be happy with but I think it is the best option.

B. Keep Renewal as a HoT but drop the travel time, making sure to swap over to a full toggle ability, and ensure it continues ticking even after the target reaches full health. (Rebalancing its heal power and energy cost for its new purpose) This is probably the least likely to happen, mainly because I don't think it will synergize well with the new armor buff and will likely make Phoenix Renewal too powerful.)

Both of the Above would be much better if the ability was made one-handed.

C. Give Renewal an invulnerability stage like Iron Skin, Warding Halo, ect. This might be a cool idea even if it only affects Oberon as he is casting the Renewal. this would definitely need to be on some sort of cool-down though. Or at least make it so that it only triggers when it hits someone who's health is below 100%. This is still not likely to happen but it sounds cool.

honestly though, even though I know it sounds like blasphemy I still kind-of prefer option A. I feel like this best fits with warframes pacing, and, is most likely to function well without outstripping the other healers. Which I feel like is sadly (I say this because I like the "Idea" of different healer frames healing differently) the best option.

Also still needs a higher base armor score, and possibly more power, though with Oberon Prime hopefully coming out soonish they may decide to fix these issues their. Which I honestly would not begrudge them for it does make some sense.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Turtlemancer

[PsiWarp]

Further tweaks I am hoping for Oberon's rework:

1. Hallowed Ground's area of effect should affect the air above it (a few meters off the ground), so that players don't have to physically be standing on the ground at all times to receive its effects and related synergy.
   • This could improve the limited mobility issue with Hallowed Ground, since now players can easily parkour around while on top of it and still receive its effects.
2. Renewal's Bleedout extension should be decoupled from the healing duration. Ending it prematurely because the healing duration is inversely affected by Power Duration actively works against its intended function: to buy more time so other players can reach the fallen ally.
   • Right now, if you build for negative Power Duration, you can go up to 25 seconds of bleedout extension remaining active. At the high cost of completely gimping all other powers... low Smite projectile lifetime, low Hallowed Ground duration, and low Reckoning blind duration. Once the Armor buff from Hallowed Ground + Renewal goes live, its duration too will suffer if you ever plan on building for the bleedout extension.
   • If you build for positive Power Duration, you can heal players faster and all other powers get a healthy amount of lifetime to stay relevant. But the bleedout extension can stay active for as short as 3.5 seconds at maximized Power Duration. How is that ever enough time for players to get to the downed allies location, deal with nearby enemies, and try to hold X to revive him? And let me remind you, that the Use key can accidentally activate other contextual functions near downed allies, like forcing you onto a zipline or picking up a power cell. In short, the bleedout extension might as well be completely irrelevant.
   • If you're concerned with Oberon being able to extend the bleedout timer to 45+ seconds, then the bleedout slow percentages can be tweaked for balance. I don't really see a problem though, the ally is lying there only able to use secondary weapons for the whole time he/she is down, Oberon and other active teammates would be more concerned about getting him/her up.

[Turtlemancer]

24 minutes ago, PsiWarp said:

Further tweaks I am hoping for Oberon's rework:

1. Hallowed Ground's area of effect should affect the air above it (a few meters off the ground), so that players don't have to physically be standing on the ground at all times to receive its effects and related synergy.
   • This could improve the limited mobility issue with Hallowed Ground, since now players can easily parkour around while on top of it and still receive its effects.
2. Renewal's Bleedout extension should be decoupled from the healing duration. Ending it prematurely because the healing duration is inversely affected by Power Duration actively works against its intended function: to buy more time so other players can reach the fallen ally.
   • Right now, if you build for negative Power Duration, you can go up to 25 seconds of bleedout extension remaining active. At the high cost of completely gimping all other powers... low Smite projectile lifetime, low Hallowed Ground duration, and low Reckoning blind duration. Once the Armor buff from Hallowed Ground + Renewal goes live, its duration too will suffer if you ever plan on building for the bleedout extension.
   • If you build for positive Power Duration, you can heal players faster and all other powers get a healthy amount of lifetime to stay relevant. But the bleedout extension can stay active for as short as 3.5 seconds at maximized Power Duration. How is that ever enough time for players to get to the downed allies location, deal with nearby enemies, and try to hold X to revive him? And let me remind you, that the Use key can accidentally activate other contextual functions near downed allies, like forcing you onto a zipline or picking up a power cell. In short, the bleedout extension might as well be completely irrelevant.
   • If you're concerned with Oberon being able to extend the bleedout timer to 45+ seconds, then the bleedout slow percentages can be tweaked for balance. I don't really see a problem though, the ally is lying there only able to use secondary weapons for the whole time he/she is down, Oberon and other active teammates would be more concerned about getting him/her up.

Holy &*() these are the most elegant solutions I have heard so far! Another way to accomplish that Hallowed Ground Tweek is to make the effect linger for 1-3 seconds after you leave Hallowed Ground, if they cant figure out how to get the effect to work right, then again I think they could handle it.

[redeyedtreefrog]

7 hours ago, malekas said:

It's a mess. And to add insult to injury, DE's rework is nerfing the ability by limiting the range.

Remember that the infinite range and (relatively) fast projectile speed of renewal is required to make good use out of renewal's bleedout reduction, which, currently, I find to be more helpful than the actual heal in regards to helping teammates.

[redeyedtreefrog]

3 hours ago, Urlan said:

Renewal currently has infinite range controlled of course by the fact it drains energy during the travel time

Small correction: I believe it only drains energy while the regenerative effect is active on at least one target. (at least, I'm fairly sure that's the entire reason that duration works inversely on renewal, and recasting the ability shortly after a previous cast requires first cancelling the previous renewal)

3 hours ago, Urlan said:

ile its the second best heal to Blessing

True; but by a huge margin. Enough to make oberon get laughed out of squads as a healer. (true, oberon doesn't need trinity's insane healing capability since he can also make a good CC/buffer(with smite infusion), but blessing's huge margin of victory is all the more reason not to have nerfed renewal)

3 hours ago, Urlan said:

Would have to agree that Phoenix Renewal is an interesting idea that might be better served being reworked into a Soul Survivor or different angle as it feels that the augment is not desired to work in its current manifestation

Now, I've noticed that renewal itself does affect downed tenno (bleedout extension, but not phoenix renewal). Considering soul survivor can be used at the cost of 25 energy(at base efficiency), and unless I'm wrong, has no cooldown, I don't see how it could be overpowered to make phoenix renewal work on downed allies, comparatively. Still, all of these problems could have been solved by getting rid of the power drain caused by renewal, and all the hampering mechanics associated with it.

[Urlan]

4 hours ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

Small correction: I believe it only drains energy while the regenerative effect is active on at least one target. (at least, I'm fairly sure that's the entire reason that duration works inversely on renewal, and recasting the ability shortly after a previous cast requires first cancelling the previous renewal)

True; but by a huge margin. Enough to make oberon get laughed out of squads as a healer. (true, oberon doesn't need trinity's insane healing capability since he can also make a good CC/buffer(with smite infusion), but blessing's huge margin of victory is all the more reason not to have nerfed renewal)

Now, I've noticed that renewal itself does affect downed tenno (bleedout extension, but not phoenix renewal). Considering soul survivor can be used at the cost of 25 energy(at base efficiency), and unless I'm wrong, has no cooldown, I don't see how it could be overpowered to make phoenix renewal work on downed allies, comparatively. Still, all of these problems could have been solved by getting rid of the power drain caused by renewal, and all the hampering mechanics associated with it.

Unfortunately, the drain occurs as soon as you cast the ability, during its travel, it means that if your allies are spread out and you have low energy, you will run out before it even hits them. Basically, the move is a channeled move that cancels as quickly as all are healed, Oberon runs out of energy, duration, or recasts. The game is very focused in its design around the specialists like Trinity, you can't have balanced all-rounders if the game scales outside of their useful range. Yes, Renewal slows the downed player's bleed-out countdowns the more duration you have gives a bonus to the bleed-out for the downed ally, makes Oberon good for trying to give allies time to be picked up at least as long as the energy can be kept up. I think that Phoenix Renewal being changed to reviving allies would be a good upgrade to its functionality; though in theory the augment would be more powerful for Oberon currently, since it can effect him; in practice, it doesn't usually work and is further limited by a secondary cool-down that is longer than some missions run funny enough.

[Turtlemancer]

4 hours ago, Urlan said:

Unfortunately, the drain occurs as soon as you cast the ability, during its travel, it means that if your allies are spread out and you have low energy, you will run out before it even hits them. Basically, the move is a channeled move that cancels as quickly as all are healed, Oberon runs out of energy, duration, or recasts. The game is very focused in its design around the specialists like Trinity, you can't have balanced all-rounders if the game scales outside of their useful range. Yes, Renewal slows the downed player's bleed-out countdowns the more duration you have gives a bonus to the bleed-out for the downed ally, makes Oberon good for trying to give allies time to be picked up at least as long as the energy can be kept up. I think that Phoenix Renewal being changed to reviving allies would be a good upgrade to its functionality; though in theory the augment would be more powerful for Oberon currently, since it can effect him; in practice, it doesn't usually work and is further limited by a secondary cool-down that is longer than some missions run funny enough.

Well that is one change they are making to renewal it will not begin to drain your energy until it applies to one other person, or at least tahts what I think they where saying unless they meant it will only drain you energy so long as it is healing someone. So it costs more or less based on how many warframes are currently being healed.

Also the more I think about it I hope we keep the current Passive to the extent that it only works on actually wildlife but not Grineer pets just as a flavor thing. But If it comes to that or the new one I will take the new one everytime.

Edited April 24, 2017 by Turtlemancer

[KrypTic.]

gonna be short and sweet.
Renewal: A. leaves and aura that will regen the targets hp for the entire remaining duration, aura stays on target even if they have been fully healed.
               or B. Making that ability and AOE channeling ability, players that receive healing, drains Oberon's energy, simple.

Considering this is the third ability for Oberon, it really needs some consistency, after viewing 'primetime #161 I was over the moon to see some of my suggested changes to his kit being noted (to his 1/2) but unfortunately his 3rd still needs work before it can be reliable. 

[Urlan]

1 hour ago, Turtlemancer said:

Well that is one change they are making to renewal it will not begin to drain your energy until it applies to one other person, or at least tahts what I think they where saying unless they meant it will only drain you energy so long as it is healing someone. So it costs more or less based on how many warframes are currently being healed.

Also the more I think about it I hope we keep the current Passive to the extent that it only works on actually wildlife but not Grineer pets just as a flavor thing. But If it comes to that or the new one I will take the new one everytime.

At least that is what it currently seems. I am worried though that making it tied heavily to duration for range might not work out that well in relation to what the move does and might also put the healing move into heavier comparison (unfavorably) with Blessing.

[OxideNation]

I think the rework is terrible. To be honest.

[OxideNation]

4 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

Now is the best time to point out why, No gurentees DE will take any of our feedback into account (I personally doubt it) but better to be heard when a chance exists.

Hmm renew in it's current state andd in it's possible future state are just not good for how the game plays. Maybe Have it as a attachable heal. Where it stays on the person for a decent duration and heals over time while not being a massive energy drain? even on this new "wave" heal its clunky as all heck and has no true use because it's hard telling people's health ANYWAYS to heal them in a timely and proper manner. Mind you it's kinda the problem with the genre and the current power creep where heals are more obsolete then they used to be.

I think the radiation proc'ing is interesting but wouldn't it be cooler for like a possible spreading (moving out from him slowly) and it slows the enemies down from thorns and stuff coming from the ground. (think nidus's area skill for visuals, but it be tree's and forest esque stuff? or even make this like a heal of some sort?

I just think there is so much more they can do with him and make him a proper druid/paladin hybrid. He does need more armor for sure though ( not a drastic increase but a slight tweak )

 

Not to mention the new warframe is a healer as well so rushing a rework and rushing it with small tweaks to old skills doesn't make him unique like most frames. Excluding Zeph

 

good example of rushing out reworks: I agree with him about switching abilities and just not fixing the actual problems with the frames.

 

Edited April 24, 2017 by OxideNation

[OxideNation]

1 minute ago, MarrikBroom said:

An idea you gave me was since Renewal moves out in a wave and DE is all about synergy, make it so enemies get a debuff if they're caught in the heal wave if they're suffering a radiation proc?

that would be interesting as long as they made the visuals way better and more enjoyable to look at.

That way say you're on survival and have HG out enemies swarm your bolt hole, you slam down with reckoning to try stripping out armor, maybe Smite one of the scarrier units, then you pop Renewal.

well no matter if your solo survival or with a group end game is completely based on slowing things down because of armor scaling at end game.

You get healed and more armor. They get slowed in addition to the radiation proc.