Skill synergy is an OPTION not a necessity

[Zendadaist]

DE seems to be confusing optional synergy with mandatory interdependence. Nidus is a great example of the former, while Oberon is very much the latter.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

4 hours ago, Zendadaist said:

DE seems to be confusing optional synergy with mandatory interdependence. Nidus is a great example of the former, while Oberon is very much the latter.

No Nidus has mandatory codependency: No stacks from 1st ability mean you cannot cast his 3 nor his 4.

 

Loki would be optional synergy: You can use Decoy by itself

Or use it with Switch Teleport for mobility(Don't know why DE nerfed Laser Spy Wall teleporting...Nova and Nezha can teleport through them without power-obstructed error)*

Or you can pair Decoy with Invisibility to lure enemies toward a certain area (enhanced further by removing their ranged guns and making them rush the decoy)

That seems like optional synergy, in my opinion.

 

Oberon rework, which I am still waiting on, just seems bad due to Renewal itself being such a power hog. (Looking in terms of where Trials 7 other players to heal plus their Companions/summons etc...)

I firmly believe Frames should be balanced around Sortie and Trial instances: Why do a rework for a Frame to not be viable in Trial setting? (With Trials being the Raid equivalent of a normal MMO)

[W01fe]

8 hours ago, taiiat said:

as if you'd deliberately use Zero Mods vs high Level Enemies
can easily be 6,745.625 per 3.125 Energy, 5,490.625 of which Armor/Shield Ignore... which is plenty to Kill Enemies within reasonable Level Ranges (lv60 area might start to get sketchy for oneshot).

mods that affect only your frames abilities have always been optional, otherwise every frame would use all of them.

besides just buffing shuriken (as example) damage to be "fine" or even good wont make a compelling build, it will just make a build where you focus on spamming 1 all day every day.  Given its fire rate if that was effective it would be just boring spammy crap.  

This is why i say synergy is good in ways, i think it would be good for abilities like shuriken to give them a reason to be used that doesnt result in them being spammed nonstop.

[taiiat]

41 minutes ago, W01fe said:

mods that affect only your frames abilities have always been optional

besides just buffing shuriken (as example) damage to be "fine" or even good wont make a compelling build, it will just make a build where you focus on spamming 1 all day every day.  Given its fire rate if that was effective it would be just boring spammy crap.  

This is why i say synergy is good in ways, i think it would be good for abilities like shuriken to give them a reason to be used that doesnt result in them being spammed nonstop.

.... all Mods are 'optional'. don't make me laugh.

it's not even outside the realm of a normal Ash Loadout - all i added was Efficiency was normal, and Power Strength which isn't out of the ordinary at all. you'd probably have a bit less in actual play to save Duration, but to get closer to a normal Loadout all you're doing is changing the Rank of the Mods, not changing what Mods you have.

Shuriken has a reason to be used - you're just trying to argue that it's currently completely useless, which objectively isn't the case. Abilities performing other actions together is coolio but the desire or usefulness of those isn't because the Abilities do nothing elsewise.
just don't argue against facts while saying what you're trying to say and it'll go way better.

[Chipputer]

16 hours ago, taiiat said:

TIL that with ZERO Mods, spending 12.5 Energy to deal 2,687.5 Damage (2,187.5 of which Ignores Armor/Shield) to an Enemy is 'subpar and terrible'.

B... b... but I did that in a 3 hour MOT survival and it didn't do enough damage to the enemy I was fighting against! Buff it!

[W01fe]

2 hours ago, taiiat said:

.... all Mods are 'optional'. don't make me laugh.

it's not even outside the realm of a normal Ash Loadout - all i added was Efficiency was normal, and Power Strength which isn't out of the ordinary at all. you'd probably have a bit less in actual play to save Duration, but to get closer to a normal Loadout all you're doing is changing the Rank of the Mods, not changing what Mods you have.

Shuriken has a reason to be used - you're just trying to argue that it's currently completely useless, which objectively isn't the case. Abilities performing other actions together is coolio but the desire or usefulness of those isn't because the Abilities do nothing elsewise.
just don't argue against facts while saying what you're trying to say and it'll go way better.

aye im sure primed pressure point is totally optional on a melee weapon :P

it is the case that its currently useless as there is no reason to fire off a modless shuriken if you have guns and/or melee going on.  better to save your energy for stealth.

dont skew facts to make them more then what they are.  as even if it does 1 damage, it can "objectively" be used to do damage...thats a copout and you know it.

regardless on whether it is "good" enough to spam or not, my argument is more that spamming it is not a good game mechanic in general, so giving it some kind of synergy to create a situation where you want to use it for more then just damage (without mods) is not a bad thing.  

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

Please go discuss this in an ash rework thread(there like a hundred of them).

[W01fe]

6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CFE Angry said:

Please go discuss this in an ash rework thread(there like a hundred of them).

I merely using it as an example to voice my opinion on skill synergy.  Something I have held to in this thread. 

[W01fe]

Does anyone disagree that spamming one ability add infinum is bad gameplay?

 

More then one ability has been tweaked/nerfed due to this.

my thoughts are not to force someone to play a strict combo style gameplay where you have to press your buttons in a very specific order and use all of them to be effective.  I disagree with that.  its exhausting.

Im for situational synergy/benefit however.  Where if x happens and I press Y i get an added bonus.  
 

one is automated, your pressing abilities because you have to, the other is more reactionary/opporutinistc.  you are pressing abilities because of what is happening or because of what you want to make happen.  That imo is a good thing.  

I fail to see why everyone views this as black and white, Not every ability needs synergy, not every ability needs to have zero synergy.  You take it on a frame by frame basis, ability by ability.  

There is only two things i want to personally avoid.  
1-spam one ability over and over to win, DE has made multiple changes to curb these thinsg.
2-a situation where you are pressing buttons to continue a combo chain of abilities, that is exhausting in a game like this and quickly becomes tedious.

 

[Neightrix]

To me, actual synergy is like the explosion combos in Mass Effect 3. Two powers being cast by the same or different players, resulting in additional combo damage that scales with difficulty and ignores enemy defenses. It promotes teamwork too. That game is much less complex too.

[Windy_Wind]

Agree with this. Oberon 2nd and 3rd are dependent and really weak without one or the other. Not to mention that it's really hard to get all your teamate buffed since they never stand still on hallow and bullet jump all the time, which forces oberon to spam over and over just to get lucky to have the entire squad buffed,

Renewal should have armor buff on its own, and then when standing on hallow ground, the armor buff effect will  be double, that's what it should have been, IMO

Edited May 4, 2017 by Windy_Wind

[W01fe]

35 minutes ago, Windy_Wind said:

Agree with this. Oberon 2nd and 3rd are dependent and really weak without one or the other. Not to mention that it's really hard to get all your teamate buffed since they never stand still on hallow and bullet jump all the time, which forces oberon to spam over and over just to get lucky to have the entire squad buffed,

Renewal should have armor buff on its own, and then when standing on hallow ground, the armor buff effect will  be double, that's what it should have been, IMO

agreed weak on its own and requiring another ability for the skill to be worth it is bad.  

[DreamsmithJane]

22 hours ago, Zendadaist said:

DE seems to be confusing optional synergy with mandatory interdependence. Nidus is a great example of the former, while Oberon is very much the latter.

Uh, no. There's nothing stopping you from using any one of Oberon's powers by itself, and they are all useful.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

14 hours ago, W01fe said:

Does anyone disagree that spamming one ability add infinum is bad gameplay?

...

 

I disagree that spamming one ability is bad gameplay.

I personally see using a single ability as the same as repeatedly mashing Fire from a gun or Melee.

I think DE has been trying to get players to be more involved with keyboard/controller inputs by implementing weapons and abilities that require more than a single key/button input.

With Guns you can use examples where Alt/Secondary fire can bring a mode to a weapon that DE also happens to powercreep another similar weapon without said Alt-fire mode.(Tenora vs Soma; Pandero vs Vasto, Zenistar vs Scindo)

Even with Melee DE seems to want players to fully utilize charge attacks or melee combos, rather than spamming Slide-attacks or Quick-melee.

With Warframe Abilities it seems more like a mix bag: they have added Combo-chain mechanics to some Abilities which means those Abilities get stronger being spammed. With Loki's Abilities, those were not stated as having Synergy, but they are Abilities that complement each other while minimizing over-time.

Nidus is another example of Abilities that don't have much overlap, but he is definitely built around spamming his 1st Ability.

Inaros due to 1st ability being a Frontal Cone Blind that allows his passive to work, just made it hard for the community to not build him around a spam pocket-Damage build.

A lot of other frames are similar where a single ability will be cast more frequently than all others because of how it suits gameplay (playstyle).

Valkyr is an example of where Abilities have overlap and even a certain ability overlaps what should be beneficial from her passive. (Part of WarCry - Armor buff is overlapped by Hysteria Invulnerability and Quicker Knockdown Recovery passive is irrelevant in Hysteria because of knockdown and status Immunity)

Excalibur having Slide-Blind on Exalted Blade is also some overlap with Radial Blind.

Trinity Well of Life healing vs Blessing

 

I don't think overlapping abilities promote the variety DE intend for players to utilize a full kit.

In the same, I believe DE's intentions for Shadow Debt mods was not to specifically influence the community back to Slide-Attack only. (Since the dust had settled over the whole Slide-Attack Coptering)

 

I think Covert Lethality is the best example of DE's intentions not matching how the community was going to abuse this addition.

Covert Lethality- On launch 

•Allowing any Stealth attack (basically any one invisible or attack in blinded enemies) Jump-attacks, Slide-attacks, Quick-melee,etc... Would be a 1-hit kill & they allowed Covert Lethality to work with Excalibur's newly debuted Wave Blade for easy 1-hit kills that scaled infinitely

Yeah that was not DE's intentions to have people spamming a ranged infinite Punch-through 1-shot turret, but the community definitely saw that as being more than viable.

 

Even in the above discussions about Ash, there was an argument that using the energy on Shuriken would be better spent on Invisibility (Smoke Screen) and that is because Invisibility is just better in actual Gameplay use. Now DE has also made it where Smokescreen grants benefits to Bladestrom...looks Ash players are going to be invisible. Keeping Smokescreen up (spamming the ability. Keeping a duration ability on at all times = spamming that ability)

With Oberon rework and future rework my issue comes in with how they perform in a Trial setting.

•I don't think Oberon was made to be more Trial Friendly

•I also don't feel Valkyr was made to be more Trial Friendly, but oh well.

It doesn't make sense to me to promote Trials as being the endgame Raid equivalency and then go through Frame rework that hinder them from being an effective Trial/Raid member

[MartianGHunter]

Why must everything be level 100 when we only face level 80 and below realistically like myself as solo player max I ever go is 70.

Just being honest and Oberon goes well above that.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

1 hour ago, MartianGHunter said:

Why must everything be level 100 when we only face level 80 and below realistically like myself as solo player max I ever go is 70.

Just being honest and Oberon goes well above that.

So no Sortie 3? (Seeing as how Sortie 3 is lvl 80 base and bosses are nomrally at the lvl 100 cap)

It makes more sense in my opinion for the Frames to be balanced around Sortie 3 and also final phase of Trials.

Anything beyond that is Endless/Endurance territory and that doesn't necessarily need frames built around without addressing Damage and Armor scaling.

[Mu_Gera]

Saryn actually has a codependent synergy instead of a quirky one, especially regarding miasma which when synergistic, only adds damage. That's it. You have to synergize it for it to do only meaningful damage, and nothing else like corrosive procs or any other effect that could fit her theme. Otherwise, it's useless cause it does pitiful damage.