Riven Slot Hardcap (forcefully dissolving my Sortie reward)

[Jukantos]

I beg you, raise the maximum amount of Riven slots, there is literally no lore or mechanical reason for this hard limit to exist. Im sitting on 9300 plat and i am forced to dissolve my Sortie Reward that took me over an hour to earn, just because you wont allow me to spend my ingame currency on something as arbitrary as inventory slots. Why does this hardcap exist? What purpose does it serve? will the servers explode if they have to memorize more than 60 combinations of numbers per account?

Please, at least double or quadruple it. The rate at which im forced to dissolve or gift away rivens because im getting ones for good weapons i use is ridicolous. The fact that Primary, Secondary, Shotgun and soon Melee??? Rivens share this incredibly limited capacity is even more insane.

Let me spend my platinum for this, it's the only hardcap in the game and it makes absolutely no sense to exist anymore. The initial testing phase of rivens is well over, wouldnt you agree?

I Alt+F4ed out of the screen that wanted to force me to dissolve one of my rivens to make place for the unmarked one, im curious to see what happened to it / what happens when i log back in

Edited May 24, 2017 by Jukantos

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

theres a server reason why it exists

Edited May 24, 2017 by Eureka.seveN

[Jukantos]

Just now, Eureka.seveN said:

theres a server reason why it exists

Okay, im a programmer myself, so i'd take a wild guess and claim these rivens literally can not make up more than 1 Megabyte of information. No matter how badly you encode them, you can literally write down their numbers (name as a string, stats with an ID, stat amount and number of rerolls) in a text file and youll probably have a hard time reaching 50 kilobytes with the information connected to 1 account.

Server hardware space is relatively cheap. DEFINITELY cheaper than what we spend in platinum to unlock these slots. The only possible thing i can see as a limit is the transfer of information to the client on login, but then again, come on it's likely not even half a megabyte. How hard can it be to quadruple that, mind you ONLY for the players who will pay for it with platinum! ~95%+++ of accounts (especially the dead ones as well as newer players) wont even trigger this whatsoever.

So honestly, what technical reason for this limit could exist? I'd love to hear an explanation for that. It makes no sense that something as tiny as the riven data should have any impact on DEs systems, unless (LOL) we actually have a library of all the players world wide's riven inventories in our game client in case we host for them (that however would be so technically ludicrous i'm surprised i even came up with it as a possible scenario)

[DSpite]

* Get a few mates to make Warframe Accounts.

* Use them as drug Riven mules.

* Make sure none of your mates enter a foreign country carrying Rivens (just in case).

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

because that small amount x 40 000 accounts plus console and xbox players

1 minute ago, Jukantos said:

Okay, im a programmer myself, so i'd take a wild guess and claim these rivens literally can not make up more than 1 Megabyte of information. No matter how badly you encode them, you can literally write down their numbers (name as a string, stats with an ID, stat amount and number of rerolls) in a text file and youll probably have a hard time reaching 50 kilobytes with the information connected to 1 account.

Server hardware space is relatively cheap. DEFINITELY cheaper than what we spend in platinum to unlock these slots. The only possible thing i can see as a limit is the transfer of information to the client on login, but then again, come on it's likely not even half a megabyte. How hard can it be to quadruple that, mind you ONLY for the players who will pay for it with platinum! ~95%+++ of accounts (especially the dead ones as well as newer players) wont even trigger this whatsoever.

So honestly, what technical reason for this limit could exist? I'd love to hear an explanation for that. It makes no sense that something as tiny as the riven data should have any impact on DEs systems, unless (LOL) we actually have a library of all the players world wide's riven inventories in our game client in case we host for them (that however would be so technically ludicrous i'm surprised i even came up with it as a possible scenario)

 

[Jukantos]

1 minute ago, DSpite said:

* Get a few mates to make Warframe Accounts.

* Use them as drug Riven mules.

* Make sure none of your mates enter a foreign country carrying Rivens (just in case).

Nah, why would i wanna clutter up their inventories? At this point, the logical thing for me to do is simply make a Jukantos 2 account and put them there. I realize that's obviously against ToS because im technically stealing myself 15 slots, but i'll just gift slots to the account until it in turn reaches 60, so hopefully DE wont come after me for doing it. Still the whole situation is stupid.

[Jukantos]

Just now, Eureka.seveN said:

because that small amount x 40 000 accounts plus console and xbox players

 

Okay lets make a worst case calculation. Warframe's all time peak player numbers were nearly 70000. Lets go with your assumption and say we're looking at 150000 players, and then double that figure to account for the fact people arent always online.

thats 300000 players, multiplied with conservatively speaking 250 kilobytes. It is probably really damn easy to store this information in way way under 10 kb but again, lets keep going way over the top with our numbers just to be safe.

That gets you 75.000.000 kilobyte, or 75.000 megabyte, or 75 GB. Holy hell, my old harddrive from the early 2000s can store that, let alone a web server which come with double digit terrabyte storage capacities.

Now lets go even crazier and say you consume half a megabyte for each of the 32 million players who have ever registered to the game in all time. You come out with 16 million megabytes, or 16000 Gigabytes, or 16 TB. A web server with 8 hard drives, easy bloody peasy. Not even 1000€ to set one of those up, and now imagine how much those 32 MILLION people would have to buy each, to unlock all of those slots.

And just in case you wanna bring up a bandwidth argument... what do you think how many terrabytes the servers shoulder every day when people download the game? Every full installation is Gigabytes worth of data. Half a megabyte (and that was a crazy guess remember) per player per day is EASY ^^

[Weidro]

having multiple accs is fine and trading rivens over to a second acc shouldn't be a problem

since you are farming them and you are giving them to yourself and storing them on a place that you cant even access if you want to switch weapons between missions
i can't see a reason how this could be against TOS or EULA

[DSpite]

Just now, Jukantos said:

Nah, why would i wanna clutter up their inventories? At this point, the logical thing for me to do is simply make a Jukantos 2 account and put them there. I realize that's obviously against ToS because im technically stealing myself 15 slots, but i'll just gift slots to the account until it in turn reaches 60, so hopefully DE wont come after me for doing it. Still the whole situation is stupid.

I run two accounts. The second was for when DE brought back the new player thingy, then I kept using it because it was fun playing sub-optimally on purpose by not allowing any Plat advantages (like more Frame slots, etc etc).

In order to pass Rivens over you have to actually have BOTH accounts YOU own logged in. Even that by itself might be considered "naughty", let alone trading with yourself.

I am at the stage that because I get totally ignored in all chats when asking "anyone willing to trade an Archwing part" - as they are now Syndicate locked - I might have to use a mate as a mid-proxy to do the "passing" (as both accounts follow different Syndicates) - and I'm even worried at doing THAT.

Be careful you don't end up with ZERO Riven slots.

[bluepheonix13]

12 minutes ago, Jukantos said:

Okay, im a programmer myself, so i'd take a wild guess and claim these rivens literally can not make up more than 1 Megabyte of information. No matter how badly you encode them, you can literally write down their numbers (name as a string, stats with an ID, stat amount and number of rerolls) in a text file and youll probably have a hard time reaching 50 kilobytes with the information connected to 1 account.

Server hardware space is relatively cheap. DEFINITELY cheaper than what we spend in platinum to unlock these slots. The only possible thing i can see as a limit is the transfer of information to the client on login, but then again, come on it's likely not even half a megabyte. How hard can it be to quadruple that, mind you ONLY for the players who will pay for it with platinum! ~95%+++ of accounts (especially the dead ones as well as newer players) wont even trigger this whatsoever.

So honestly, what technical reason for this limit could exist? I'd love to hear an explanation for that. It makes no sense that something as tiny as the riven data should have any impact on DEs systems, unless (LOL) we actually have a library of all the players world wide's riven inventories in our game client in case we host for them (that however would be so technically ludicrous i'm surprised i even came up with it as a possible scenario)

AFAIK, it is not about the hardware space on DE's servers, because a few Rivens definitely don't have a big impact on that, but it is about the fact, that each time we login, we have to download our whole inventory from the servers, including all mods. This means, that with 60 Rivens, let's say they take up 10MB together, 10 seconds of your login screen are spent downloading Rivens alone one a 1MB/s connection to DE and it gets far worse if your connection is a few hundred KB/s.

[Jukantos]

1 minute ago, DSpite said:

I run two accounts. The second was for when DE brought back the new player thingy, then I kept using it because it was fun playing sub-optimally on purpose by not allowing any Plat advantages (like more Frame slots, etc etc).

In order to pass Rivens over you have to actually have BOTH accounts YOU own logged in. Even that by itself might be considered "naughty", let alone trading with yourself.

I am at the stage that because I get totally ignored in all chats when asking "anyone willing to trade an Archwing part" - as they are now Syndicate locked - I might have to use a mate as a mid-proxy to do the "passing" (as both accounts follow different Syndicates) - and I'm even worried at doing THAT.

Be careful you don't end up with ZERO Riven slots.

The problem is, when they refuse to solve problems caused by their own hand via a hardcap that has no right to exist, which you cant even pay your way through but that can be circumvented by multiaccounting... why wouldnt i multiaccount? i need to do SOMETHING. i am more than willing to pay for the inventory space, they simply wont let me give them money!

[bluepheonix13]

2 minutes ago, DSpite said:

In order to pass Rivens over you have to actually have BOTH accounts YOU own logged in. Even that by itself might be considered "naughty", let alone trading with yourself.

It is not only "naughty", it also against the ToS and can pretty easily get you banned.

[Weidro]

2 minutes ago, Jukantos said:

Okay lets make a worst case calculation. Warframe's all time peak player numbers were nearly 70000. Lets go with your assumption and say we're looking at 150000 players, and then double that figure to account for the fact people arent always online.

thats 300000 players, multiplied with conservatively speaking 250 kilobytes. It is probably really damn easy to store this information in way way under 10 kb but again, lets keep going way over the top with our numbers just to be safe.

That gets you 75.000.000 kilobyte, or 75.000 megabyte, or 75 GB. Holy hell, my old harddrive from the early 2000s can store that, let alone a web server which come with double digit terrabyte storage capacities.

Now lets go even crazier and say you consume half a megabyte for each of the 32 million players who have ever registered to the game in all time. You come out with 16 million megabytes, or 16000 Gigabytes, or 16 TB. A web server with 8 hard drives, easy bloody peasy. Not even 1000€ to set one of those up, and now imagine how much those 32 MILLION people would have to buy each, to unlock all of those slots.

And just in case you wanna bring up a bandwidth argument... what do you think how many terrabytes the servers shoulder every day when people download the game? Every full installation is Gigabytes worth of data. Half a megabyte (and that was a crazy guess remember) per player per day is EASY ^^

1. there are currently more than 32 million accs
   even when you consider that some are dead or alt accs its really hard to guess a peak activity
   keep in mind that the vast majority of players never uses steam to launch warframe
   afaik only less than 2% use steam for warframe so there is no public data about peak activity
2. i doubt that the problem is storage capacity
   more likely its bandwidth
3. and even with your rant DE clearly stated that they wont increase the cap further
   they named "sever reasons" for this which could really be anything
4. my tip is keep 20 primary 20 secondary and 20 empty slots for melee
   sell or dissolve the rest and get over it
   if you don't want to accept this make alt accs
5. although about you claim how much money DE makes from ppl buying plat
   barely anthing
   most of DE's money is from prime access purchases and not from plat sales

[Jukantos]

1 minute ago, bluepheonix13 said:

AFAIK, it is not about the hardware space on DE's servers, because a few Rivens definitely don't have a big impact on that, but it is about the fact, that each time we login, we have to download our whole inventory from the servers, including all mods. This means, that with 60 Rivens, let's say they take up 10MB together, 10 seconds of your login screen are spent downloading Rivens alone one a 1MB/s connection to DE and it gets far worse if your connection is a few hundred KB/s.

This would be a reasonable argument, but again, it's easy to store the rivens in a XML-esque format in way way way under half a megabyte. Think about it, how much information does a riven actually consist out of? A name, a maximum of 4 stats with a float (decimal number) each and an integer number for the rerolls. Thats like 200 bytes at worst

[DSpite]

1 minute ago, Jukantos said:

This would be a reasonable argument, but again, it's easy to store the rivens in a XML-esque format in way way way under half a megabyte. Think about it, how much information does a riven actually consist out of? A name, a maximum of 4 stats with a float (decimal number) each and an integer number for the rerolls. Thats like 200 bytes at worst

If out of the 32 million players, only 500K log in every day and do Sorties, then every day, at a 20% drop, 100,000 new Rivens appear in the database each day. In one year, the database will be storing an extra ~35 Million "unique" new entries for those mods.

No sure if good or bad, but I don't blame DE for putting limits in, otherwise this game will be called "Game of Thr.. Rivens" within a year.

 

[Tsukinoki]

28 minutes ago, Jukantos said:

This would be a reasonable argument, but again, it's easy to store the rivens in a XML-esque format in way way way under half a megabyte. Think about it, how much information does a riven actually consist out of? A name, a maximum of 4 stats with a float (decimal number) each and an integer number for the rerolls. Thats like 200 bytes at worst

Two things your missing here (which if you are a programmer is surprising and I wouldn't want to rely on your programs if they deal with big data like Warframe has to):

-First is transferring the Riven information to the client from the servers.  That is where a lot of the limitation is focused is trying to keep the bandwidth requirements when you log in reasonable so that people don't sit at a spinner for a few minutes at a time.

-Second is retrieving the riven information from the database to begin with!  Think about it: In order to find a players Riven information they have to query their database.  They have millions of records that they have to go through to find all of a users rivens.  Even with heavily optimized queries that takes some time.  If they didn't have a limit on how many records per player that process of fetching the data from the database would take longer and longer and longer and longer as the number of Rivens in the systems increases.  So regardless of how they compress the data to send it to the clients they also have to deal with fetching the data originally from the database.

Trust me, dealing with fetching data from a table of tens-to-hundreds of millions of rows takes a while.  Even in well normalized databases.

Its a two part problem that DE solved by capping how many records are possible so that there is less maximum data to send to the client, and there is less data to search through on the database end.

[djternan]

They made Rivens incredibly inefficient by giving them variable values that have decimals attached.  It doesn't show every decimal place, but it goes past the first decimal.  If they had standardized the values and stored them as integers it seems like they could have reduced the amount of space they need.  They chose to be inefficient and my guess is so it would provide an excuse to charge for slots past the initial 15.  If they let you store more than 60 they would be admitting that their servers can handle it and there shouldn't have been a reason to charge plat for slots in the first place.

[ScribbleClash]

The question that keeps coming up for me is: Are Rivens actually unique? I've not checked so far if a +modifier is random (and honestly, if this is completly random, then this is a terrible system to begin with). If they are in fact static and only multiplied by modlevel and maybe boosted if you for example have a negative multiplier, then the mods would be in fact endless.

Quite so, that you could very easily have a VERY limitted table containing of the data, that only needs to be referenced with very limitted data-usage.

Please do also consider, while scaling players may mean scaling costs, it also comes with scaling profits.
In my opinion, Rivens as they currently are, are a bad system to begin with.

[Volinus7]

Onus probandi shifts back and forth unless DE provide numbers regarding the technical limitations. 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Volinus7

[(PSN)lhbuch]

Well I understand the technical difficulties around the subject BUT it is doable. 

To say that with all the technology we have today that it is impossible to increase the riven limit is crazy. Or maybe Im wrong, mankind will get to Mars before been able to increase riven cap.

The reason why it is not implemented is for cost x benefit reasons and not because it is impossible to be implemented.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, DSpite said:

* Get a few mates to make Warframe Accounts.

* Use them as drug Riven mules.

* Make sure none of your mates enter a foreign country carrying Rivens (just in case).

This could be considered exploiting the system. Remember, DE has the right at any time to ban you and this option is way too risky. 

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Do you actually have 60 worthwhile rivens? i have maybe 6 - and 54 garbage ones.  So its simple to go to mod machine prior to sortie and dump some for endo  - not even worth trading them to ensure space.

 

[Vance.Stubbs]

Another reason why I don't believe "server issue" theory is because during Mods 1.0 every single mod functioned exactly like current Riven. Yes, we used to have less players but also since every mod was like that, the actual amount of server loading was pretty much the same. I remember how I ended up with like 1000+ fusion cores after Mods 2.0 arrived.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Vance.Stubbs

[Tsukinoki]

17 minutes ago, Vance.Stubbs said:

Another reason why I don't believe "server issue" theory is because during Mods 1.0 every single mod functioned exactly like current Riven. Yes, we used to have less players but also since every mod was like that, the actual amount of server loading was pretty much the same. I remember how I ended up with like 1000+ fusion cores after Mods 2.0 arrived.

Actually not quite correct here:
In Mods 1.0 mods couldn't be upgraded, true, and they came with differening values, again true, but they weren't as random as Rivens are.

Rivens have a very wide range of values for a potential bonus.  Re-roll a riven mod and one time you might get +82% multishot at max level and the next one at +98% multishot for the exact same mod just different rolls.

Meanwhile the mods.10 was much more discreet and static.  There was only ever 5 or so possible values for a given stat for the mod unlike the rather large range that rivens cover.
For example: Power strength in mods 1.0 came at the values 50%, 35%, 20%.  You would never find a "+23% power strength" mod in mods 1.0.

Mods 1.0 would never run across the storage or retrieval problems like Rivens do.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Tsukinoki

[Vance.Stubbs]

6 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

For example: Power strength in mods 1.0 came at the values 50%, 35%, 20%.  You would never find a "+23% power strength" mod in mods 1.0.

 

Are you sure about that? As far as I remember, rare mods could be anything. Stuff like "+23% X" was a thing.