Do people believe Universal Vacuum will encourage players to use pets?

[(PSN)xRockinVaruka]

Let's summarize. Just putting what others have said, whether it's relatable to the OP or not.
 

- Vacuum is not a necessity, but rather a convenience. (A big one at that)
- People would stick to a pet or sentinel, based on their gameplay/preferences.
- The AI for pets can be seriously improved.
- When DE introduced general Sentinel Vacuum, people started using other Sentinels.
- The overall cost between Sentinels and Pets lean toward Sentinels because they do not require consistent maintenance.
- An unstuck command for pets would be very helpful. 
- Improvement on the pet mods and system. 
- Sentinels have separate mods from their weapons, making them versatile. The pets do not have a separate weapon and must have a mod to include a specific action.
- There are pros and cons for both types of companions. 

Anything I missed?

Sidenote: If we had universal Vacuum, then it would be very helpful to new players and also allow them to diversify their companions. For veterans, it is an added bonus in where I cannot see a con. (Unless you insist that it is a "lazy" mechanic." 

[Zeclem]

On ‎26‎.‎05‎.‎2017 at 3:49 PM, An8rchy said:

As this is only my mere opinion dont trash it. I still have my Kavat, no kubrow, but a hellmith charger, use kavat only for kuva farming for the buffs when i get it, and Hellmith when i just dont need any resorces to where i am going or dont care for missing them

This is why 95% of the time use sentinels and wish DE to look at

-Companions still arent as tanky as Sentinels 
-Companions dont has as much utility as Sentinels (Sorry but RANDOM kavat buffs are UNRELAIABLE to be counted, u cant use them when you want them they have to be passive to be fully useful)
-Poor A.I
-Credit Sink
-Unable to engage in ranged fights
-Can't retrive impossible to reach items (off the map mods/under something that the frame cant reach [Note: only 1 companion can bring items and its not ranged pick up])
-Useless around lvl 100 and up since as squishy, they get downed more times than help you
-SweeperP and DeconstroctorP end up being a better weapon than companion attacks.
-The fact that i can do everything better than a companion with a weapon and a frame is bad. Companions are meant to be a support for the frame, and not to be a small version of a frame. (Elaboring on this point, Shade gives stealth, helios scans and pins points for extra dmg, Carrier Has ammo mutation EVEN Kavats have more utility than kubrows [Yes Kubrows dont have a set support as kavats or sentinels])
 

1-pets are far more durable than any sentinel. only one thats comparable is carrier prime, which needs a full 4 mods to be on that level.

2-adarza kavat buffs have more than %50 uptime. thats definitely not random. and majority of smeeta buffs are ridicilous(stops energy requirement, gives guaranteed redcrits, doubles affinity/resource drops). they far outweight sentinels "utility".

3-its not poor at all. i have never seen mine or anybody elses pet get stuck during a fight.

4-how exactly?

5-yeah they dont need that. sentinels dont have that great of a ranged combat potential as well.

6-that again absolutely never happened to me or anyone else i know of. extreme cases such as that dont really mean anything.

7-squishy? what? 

8-no they dont at all.

9-thats not a fact thats your uninformed opinion.

On ‎26‎.‎05‎.‎2017 at 4:11 PM, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

-Also companions don't do anything to bosses 

-And sentinels with prime regen (sentinels can revive them selves) and sacrifice can revive you upto 16x in a single mission. 

-The utility of vacuum is just the icing on the cake.

Sentinels utilities is far superior than any sort of damage a Kubrow can do. 

FACT: PETS WILL SEE MORE USE IF THEY HAVE VACUUM. Broken AI or not.  Shouldn't really be a debate. 

1-what? thats flat out wrong lol.

2-i mean if you get downed that much in a mission maybe you should do that mission. in any normal case after you die its your sentinel who will get shot at by your enemies making that mod utterly useless in actual play.

3-whole of sentinels utility is nothing compared to %60 crit adarza gives to your squad.

 

man idk why i bother. there is so much misinformation going on forums at all topics in general but this thread is just way over the average.

 

[MudShadow]

They're not going to fix the pet AI. 

IMO they should just increase the survivability of kavats and kubrows.

If these are pets which have to run head first into a group of level 100 enemies. Then just give them something to sustain that. Otherwise what exactly is the point of them being able to attack high level enemies if they will just die literally all of the time.

Edited May 27, 2017 by MudShadow

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

21 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

 

1-what? thats flat out wrong lol.

2-i mean if you get downed that much in a mission maybe you should do that mission. in any normal case after you die its your sentinel who will get shot at by your enemies making that mod utterly useless in actual play.

3-whole of sentinels utility is nothing compared to %60 crit adarza gives to your squad.

 

man idk why i bother. there is so much misinformation going on forums at all topics in general but this thread is just way over the average.

 

1. Maybe I should have said invincible bosses like Sargus and bersas that need certain weak points hit. 

2. This makes you practically invincible. Kill with your secondary, sentinel revives. With wyrm for example with it's aoe, none issue. 

3. Kubrow crit chance or random (waiting for) kavat buffs don't do jack sht when it comes to Kuva or enemies with weak points (Sargus, Krill esc esc) 

Plus sentinels can heal you as well...kavat Kubrows get stuck in walls. 

Again pets would see a lot more use with some type of vacuum added to them. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[-CM-Zenshadow]

Some people are saying that the addition of Universal Vacuum will not increase the usage of Kavats/Kubrows, while others are saying the opposite.

If Universal Vacuum was added, at least people would have a choice between the two - when Vacuum was turned into a mod for sentinels, even though it was nerfed, sentinels other than Carrier(Prime) were used much more (the statistics for usage increase were even shown in a Devstream).

 

 

[Zeclem]

Just now, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

1. Maybe I should have said invincible bosses like Sargus and bersas that need certain weak points hit.

2. This makes you practically invincible. Kill with your secondary, sentinel revives. With wyrm for example with it's aoe, none issue. 

3. Kubrow crit chance or random (waiting for) kavat buffs don't do jack sht when it comes to Kuva or enemies with weak points (Sargus, Krill esc esc) 

Plus sentinels can heal you as well...kavat Kubrows get stuck in walls. 

1-yeah i mean if you rely on your sentinels aiming for that it just means youre bad lol. and such bosses make a vast minority of this games content.

2-if your secondary was enough to keep the enemies off from killing you, you wouldnt go down in the first place. and wyrm's aoe stun wont stop that bombard or sniper nabbing you from distance.

3-ty for further proving you havent even bothered using them. kubrows dont give crit chance. and you dont "wait" for something that has more than %50 uptime. 

ty for not reading the solid fact that they dont stuck in the walls when needed that has been repeated again and again and again by those ppl who actually use the pets. keep living in your bubble.

[Olianu]

On 5/24/2017 at 6:18 AM, Music4Therapy said:

1) Poor AI.

This is the only reason I don't use my Chesa!  I love the concept of him being a retriever, but his inconsistency in pick ups vs attacking enemies is what annoys me.

 

My question about the commands:  would you be able to select which command(s) take priority in order before you enter mission?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

4 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

1-yeah i mean if you rely on your sentinels aiming for that it just means youre bad lol. and such bosses make a vast minority of this games content.

2-if your secondary was enough to keep the enemies off from killing you, you wouldnt go down in the first place. and wyrm's aoe stun wont stop that bombard or sniper nabbing you from distance.

3-ty for further proving you havent even bothered using them. kubrows dont give crit chance. and you dont "wait" for something that has more than %50 uptime. 

ty for not reading the solid fact that they dont stuck in the walls when needed that has been repeated again and again and again by those ppl who actually use the pets. keep living in your bubble.

Not debate on which one is better. But the facts are Kubrows and Kavat AI is poor. Sentinels utility and AOE greatly out weigh any sort of damage a Kubrow can do. Kubrows are stupid, Kavats are glitchy.  If pets had vacuum they would see more use, stop pretending you know something others don't or are some kinda pet whisperer. 

 

[Zeclem]

20 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Not debate on which one is better. But the facts are Kubrows and Kavat AI is poor. Sentinels utility and AOE greatly out weigh any sort of damage a Kubrow can do. Kubrows are stupid, Kavats are glitchy.  If pets had vacuum they would see more use, stop pretending you know something others don't or are some kinda pet whisperer. 

 

yes this is not a debate, since your "facts" are completely wrong. im not talking about pets being more/less used with vacuum, im stating the fact that ppl keep claim stuff like "sentinels are tankier" or "pets have dumb ai" is really stupid.

Edited May 27, 2017 by Zeclem

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

7 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

"pets have dumb ai" is really stupid.

Attacking Sargus Ruk at his feet, Bersas head on or standing in acid pools isnt dumb? K.

Again pets would see more use if they had vacuum utility. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[HalfDarkShadow]

Can't comment much on "Poor AI" when it comes to Kubrows. Mostly because I don't really run into any of the mentioned issues players apparently run into alot. I know good part of that is because I only use my Raksa and once-in-a-blue-moon Huras and since they're always by your hip, theres very little room for error regarding them derping around on their own, getting stuck somewhere.

Kavats have some pretty fantastic AI if I do say so myself due to their mobile nature and how they can run on walls and such to attack enemies. I love the fact they run off and do their own thing, so I personally don't see any reason to have some "pet commands"  feature though I do see the demand for it, especially those who want to have complete control of everything in a mission, I'm just not one of those guys.

Sentinels I don't touch or own anymore in years due to (ever since joining Warframe 3 ish years ago) they always looked completely out of place in the game. Especially back when they didn't really move over your shoulder, like there was some kind of invisible tight leash which preventing them from moving so it looked jarring as hell to me. I'm glad they fixed that though so it looks a bit more natural but I still hold the belief Sentinels look really out of place in the game.

---

But still, Pets and Sentinels alike are just luxuries. Neither are mandatory at all so I don't see a reason why we would need a reason to change, because all that'll do is cause more problems then good. I'd rather have what we have now with just simply preferably using on over the other, with the current mentality that "Sentinels pick up items I'll never use but maybe that one rare mod I'll forget about for months" and "all pets have bad AI even though I haven't used a Kubrow since it debuted years ago in Update 13 and am not aware and choose to ignore they fixed tons of AI [pathing] problems since then" then having a scenario where one will guarantee have some kind of statistical or mechanical advantage (i.e. straight up better) over the other. Because no game in the world will have the perfect balance between the two.

Edited May 27, 2017 by HalfDarkShadow

[Zeclem]

Just now, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

Attacking Sargus Ruk at his feet, Bersas head on or standing in acid pools isnt dumb? K.

1-again, bosses are irrelevant. even so my kavat is fairly quick to switch to other non immortal targets.

2-kavats generally leap when attacking. it cant exactly keep hitting bursas from the front.

3-it only happens when theres an enemy in the pool. kill the enemy, problem solved.

[HalfDarkShadow]

9 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

bosses are irrelevant

Not to butt into the conversation, but I have to agree with you here haha. Majority of Warframe abilities are already ineffective in the first place so it's no surprise Sentinels, Kavats, or Kubrows can do much, at least for the sake of not trivializing the boss battle lol.

Edited May 27, 2017 by HalfDarkShadow

[Zeclem]

Just now, HalfDarkShadow said:

Not to butt into the conversation, but I have to agree with you here haha. Majority of Warframe abilities are already ineffective in the first place so it's no surprise Sentinels, Kavats, or Kubrows can do much, for the sake of not trivializing the boss battle lol.

its a forum, its very much its point is butting in into others conversations lel.

[HalfDarkShadow]

39 minutes ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

But the facts are Kubrows and Kavat AI is poor. Sentinels utility and AOE greatly out weigh any sort of damage a Kubrow can do. Kubrows are stupid, Kavats are glitchy. 

I think you should give them a shot again personally! They've fixed alot of issues over the past year and a half, and Kavats have some pretty great pathing AI believe it or not. I can't comment on "utility and AOE greatly out weigh...." bit because I find Kavats amazing crit buffs, armor stripping, and Raksa Kubrows mini Nekros' Terror (to name some examples) to be far more valuable to me then what a Sentinel can provide. Not to minimize what they can do of course, there's great value in Sentinels, just not what I'm personally looking for at this time.

The only thing I can argue though (which a lot of people I've noticed hold this opinion as well) that the Huras Kubrow invisibility is much better and more consistent then a Shades. You can read the wiki on why that is but I do have to agree with them that I find Huras to do a slightly better job in that department lol.

But yeah, if you ever do decide to give them a shot again (which I recommend!), definitely try a Raksa or either of the two Kavat types. Huras as well, but I'd stay away from Chesa and the like. Especially if you don't like their AI pathfinding. Huras and Raksa specifically always stay by your hip so you don't need to worry about them getting stuck somewhere.

I personally love my Raksa since I mainly play very squishy Warframes (Zephyr, Titania, Nova Prime, etc), and their abilities to keep close-range enemies at bay is extremely helpful. Especially when I'm aiming my sights somewhere else and I don't see enemies that are charging behind me, so they'll get the job done lol.

Edited May 27, 2017 by HalfDarkShadow

[DrakoKnight48]

On 5/24/2017 at 6:29 AM, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

I agree with the addition of the commands, but honestly I do think that people would start using kavats, because they provide really strong buffs. Unlike sentinels who people only use for vacuum and nothing else.

I'm sorry wat m8? Investigator on Helios and Carrior's ammo. 

[An8rchy]

I love how i said "its my opinion dont trash it" 
and people simply trashed it

Also the "miss information" that you talk about, its true, all true, get out of your bubble. watch videos, what dps values

And advaza doesnt have 60% buff up time, call it 30% with the highest of lucks

[DrakoKnight48]

Read the entire 6 page thread. I have no life. 

Crazy how no one addressed the fact pets are prone to dying, drop like flies even if you aren't frames who have a high Health pools like Inaros or Nidus. Having to limit myself to a two frames when using pets is beyond cheap. I'd boost their health pool and possibly give pets own vitality mods to counteract the problem. Not removing vacuum form the game. No. That those more hurting the game than it helps. 

[Kinetos]

Do not want universal vacuum. Increased pickup radius instead would have the same result without the side effects of bugs and even more stuff flying at the camera.

[Zeclem]

4 hours ago, An8rchy said:

I love how i said "its my opinion dont trash it" 
and people simply trashed it

Also the "miss information" that you talk about, its true, all true, get out of your bubble. watch videos, what dps values

And advaza doesnt have 60% buff up time, call it 30% with the highest of lucks

what videos exactly? and what numbers and (fake) dps values that you claim? you dont even know how to type adarza properly, nor know that its buff works for 10 seconds every 20 second when theres an enemy around? it has absolutely nothing to do with rng lol. so yes, its misinformation. kavats(actually all companions) beat the living crap out of sentinels in dps. let me know when your sentinel can take out a sortie lvl armored target by itself. my kavat does that without much issues.

@DrakoKnight48i mean i used my kavat in endurance runs and she did a damn good job with whatever frame ive brought in surviving but sure, lets listen to someone whose most used companion doesnt beat use rate of some percents.

 

 

Edited May 27, 2017 by Zeclem

[Andaius]

8 hours ago, Olianu said:

This is the only reason I don't use my Chesa!  I love the concept of him being a retriever, but his inconsistency in pick ups vs attacking enemies is what annoys me.

 

My question about the commands:  would you be able to select which command(s) take priority in order before you enter mission?

Would be interesting if you could control that by mod placement. IE attack and damage mods in the later slots and power mods in the upper slots means it does less attacking and more picking up.

[RainzoneG]

Vacuum for pets would be an important improvement, but still not enough if their AI is utter ballsack, what's the use if they are still as dumb as they are now, recklessly charging into enemies just to get themselves killed (atleast you can revive them, only for them to die again), ruin stealth or get stuck somewhere.

Until then the only pet I "use" will be this helminth puppy that makes the ship more lively.

[Obviousclone]

there is a lot of bologna in this thread

 

ai for pets isn't bad, the only noticeable issues I've found is they can't register napalm fire/they facetank invulnerable bosses.

 

sentinels are far less survivable. bombards will basically oneshot them with max'd out defence mods at level 60+, and the bombard isn't even aiming directly for the poor thing. a pet will also probably die too (well, for me as a person who uses quickthinking aka no defence mods banshee, there's not a lot of defence to scale off of), at least you can res them. a 2 minute death timer from the 2 bleedout timer mods is plenty of time to secure the area and rez.

 

sentinel "utility" isn't very good. the only one I find useful is helios. everything else is really sketchy. I have no idea why you guys claim sentinels have better utility then immediately point to shade; there's a kubrow that can give stealth that is leagues better than shade because it literally gives you perma stealth (which shade cannot do). carrier's only useful when you use horrible guns with bad ammo economy like the twin grakatas and like normal ammo mutations, it's not a final solution to the issue of running out of bullets 3 minutes into a game. Guardian is a nice mod for starcharting, it's probably my top sentinel mod that always get's run (to the point where I don't even switch it out when using inaros/nidus). medi-ray is very slow and I find that quick lifestriking with a melee to send you to full takes like 5 seconds tops compared to waiting a minute+ for max health. Pretty much I run medi-ray because I cry when i look at how garbage the rest of my sentinel mod options are. the cc oriented sentinels- like, no one in the history of warframe has ever depended on atlas's petrify (a aoe cone stun) as cc for survival due to it's limitations in targeting; so why in the planet would you ever think depending on a sentinel to cc a limited number of targets would ever work? there's a reason why even with sentinel universal vacuum, wyrm/diriga/djinn still see no play except for people leveling them for mastery fodder (and the hipsters who want to "equalize" the unpopularity of them).

The one point no one has really brought up is how you can unequip sentinel weapons/attack ai mods to disarm them which is extremely useful since sentinels companions/allies in general attacking is largely useless/detrimental due to enemy scaling. at best, you run a sweeper prime status shotty build with corrosive+blast. but that's a single target cc you're depending on, and you're sacrificing enemy alert state which is much more valuable.

 

I see zero reason as to why people bring up adarza as a relevant kavat. 60% flat crit chance is nice, but it's like 50% uptime and more importantly when does the crit chance matter except on specific guns, and if you are depending on that crit chance to kill means you play this game horribly.

smeeta on the other hand is still insane. it's rng, but every effect is positive and some are just nuts like the 120s and 30s buffs (and the one that has made it so I never have to farm jupiter themisto for neural sensors ever again). being able to double kuva drops, or let me power level a gun I forma'd is actually useful stuff.

the utility mods for pets aren't very good either. scavenge is an extremely slow and time-inefficient playstyle (not to mention opening lockers is just boring). the armour shred is single target (and what did I just say about limited targeting in this horde shooter of a game). sense danger was cool. then they nerfed it to hell by removing the wallhacks component. pounce was cool. then they nerfed it to hell by fixing all the hilarious "you shouldn't be able to stun these certain enemies with this mod" bugs that it could do. the pre-revisit oberon passive mod is only useful for scanning kavats... which catch 22, you would need a kavat to use this mod, in order to scan a kavat. the increase to attack range is impossible to appreciate/notice (and regardles, your pet is still going to facetank and be in danger). and the mods that scale off your warframe stats makes warframe choice/build very limiting (as I've stated, I usually play quick thinking banshee with no vitality/redirection/vigor so I get punished a lot stats wise).

 

the credit upkeep on companions being annoying is a really dumb point that's been brought up. It's only unappealling if you are super new to the game. 75k credits get's you like 6 injectors and that lasts you usually 1-2 months. if you literally cannot spare 75k credits every 1-2 months you have bigger issues with how you play warframe.

[An8rchy]

10 hours ago, Zeclem said:

let me know when your sentinel can take out a sortie lvl armored target by itself

Sweeper prime, 1 clip, stunlocked cant do nothing (While also being able to get my other buffs as vaccum, scan, get dmg points on enemies)

Smeeta, locked to attack, gets down by 1 hit at high lvls (dont lie, they dont have enough armor to sustain the dmg)

Spread more mis information pls

[Music4Therapy]

57 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

ai for pets isn't bad, the only noticeable issues I've found is they can't register napalm fire/they facetank invulnerable bosses.

Facetanking, wall glitching, and inconsistent in ability usage.

57 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

sentinels are far less survivable.

Agreed, in most situations. For gunplay, I'd argue sentinels to be more survivable due to the fact they don't draw enemy fire. Kubrows/Kavats for melee players and CC frames, Sentinels for gunplay.

57 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

I see zero reason as to why people bring up adarza as a relevant kavat. 60% flat crit chance is nice, but it's like 50% uptime and more importantly when does the crit chance matter except on specific guns, and if you are depending on that crit chance to kill means you play this game horribly.

It scales with blood rush for all melee weapons very similar to Maiming Strike. AKA, you are hitting for MASSIVE red crits and its a squadwide buff. Sure, you shouldn't depend on it, but I wouldn't say there is any ability aside from arguably Vacuum that you're missing out on by taking it. This is coming from a Sahasa Kubrow user.

57 minutes ago, Obviousclone said:

the credit upkeep on companions being annoying is a really dumb point that's been brought up. It's only unappealling if you are super new to the game. 75k credits get's you like 6 injectors and that lasts you usually 1-2 months. if you literally cannot spare 75k credits every 1-2 months you have bigger issues with how you play warframe.

Agreed.

 

Pets are highly underrated, can use some touchups in the way their AI works, and granted Vacuum is made universal I can see the benefits of using either or as they all bring something unique to the table.

I personally find Kubrows and Kavats to be better for melee builds and CC heavy frames and for Sentinels to be better for those that spend the majority of their time outside of melee range.

Edited May 28, 2017 by Music4Therapy