I Wonder if We'll Get a Substantial Story? [Spoilers]

[Redthirst]

1 minute ago, Teloch said:

Or the decision-makers in DE (and Steve in particular) just want to tell their story and don't give a flying f**k whether people would like it or not

 

That's the usual case, though. Various authors always want to tell their stories, in the way they prefer. It's just that some people are good at it while others aren't.

[Teloch]

10 minutes ago, Redthirst said:

That's the usual case, though. Various authors always want to tell their stories, in the way they prefer. It's just that some people are good at it while others aren't.

Well, this is the case when the game started without any plot/story at all, then gathered some basic ideas, then reconsider the very concept of its narrative, then launched its main storyline with the SD, and only then the team hired their first professional writer.

Morale: if you plan to tell a story via a game, have the prior one done and prepared before you start developing the latter. 

WF plot is the very quintessence of DE's spontaneity. I will not be surprised if they don't have the completed script for the main story ark up to this day.

Edited May 29, 2017 by Teloch

[Xekrin]

I don't understand why they are being referred to as emo kids.  They are a group of children who suffered a devastating loss, rose against insurmountable odds and grew to great power to overthrow an enemy that would have laid waste to an entire universe.

That is some serious grade A Movie of the Year stuff right there.  I realize it is of a specific genre that not everyone is into, but that is what we have.  

Or maybe I'm wrong.  I wouldn't mind seeing an aspect of lore that caters to everyone's desires here.  I think the fact that there a lot of plotholes yet to be filled is what is bothering some people.  That and impatience for the next crumb to come along.

[arch111]

The strongest theme still is a lost child and its motherfigure who guides it and shelters it.

That have carried us here where that child have broken the chains put there by Margulis - not with any help of the Mother Lotus,  but of the Teacher, Teshin Dax.

In fact the creature that the Tenno now is is vastly different from before War Within. Memories and powers return,  kept secrets are being unearthed about the war, Grineer,  Orokin,  Void and Sentients. 

The Operators were children and then young adults. With knowledge comes growth and with power comes identity.

 

The Void Demons is what we play as now. And what DE do with that as the Sentients return and more secrets are dug up - that will be the Story line from now on.

[Kaotyke]

35 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

 

I don't understand why they are being referred to as emo kids.

 

Because they dont know the meaning of "emo" and just assume anyone with emotional trauma is that.

Real Life fact: A house in my state collapsed a few months ago. A child and his mother survived because they  were at the living room, but they had to be taken out of the rubble. The kid lost an aunt, an uncle and his grandfather, all lived togheter.

I bet they would call the survivors "emos" for the next weeks they were inconsolable for losing loved ones and their home.

Op talks about "maturity" and "deep and serious themes" but has neither in his attitude.

[BornWithTeeth]

I would appreciate some consistent and mature writing for the Operators, certainly. By this point, it's not remotely appropriate for them to talk about the various factions as if they are only now discovering them, or to say "That was a close one," after breaking a box in an otherwise empty room.

 

Aside from that, well. Put in the time, consideration, and writing effort (and please, for the love of God, record some different dialogue sets) and I'm good. I like what the Operators are, I like the concept. I just think that DE themselves don't fully know what the hell they want the Operators to be.

Edited May 29, 2017 by BornWithTeeth

[FoxyKabam]

13 hours ago, LightningsVengance said:

Would you rather have Ballas killed us?

yes

then I could just be a space ninja again, one who doesn't talk

 

then we could go after lotus and ordis to shut them up once and for all before finally working with tyl regor and his stupid sexy voice

[Unus]

4 hours ago, Teloch said:

Or the decision-makers in DE (and Steve in particular) just want to tell their story and don't give a flying f**k whether people would like it or not

 

My favorite kind of attitude honestly, until it effects profit margins for the organization you work for.

 

Better that then simply bending to whatever the horde's wishes are at every turn until until you end up with a spliced-together chimera that practically screams "KILL ME!" just by looking at it.

[PrVonTuckIII]

14 hours ago, Heatnix. said:

What a waste. I don't know who's writing this story but someone needs to slap that  person hard.

Let's not get into that stuff. You bring up some good points, and I'd hate to see this get locked because of this.

Now, to address your points:

14 hours ago, Heatnix. said:

And I do mean serious since the entire system is at war, Alad V is out there perfecting infested, the Grineer constantly try to blow up relays and their tech is getting stronger and the Corpus... well... they just try to scam people-- also, the Sentient are coming. And what stories do we get? "Your emo thumblr kid is sad. You must find out why".

Is it? The Grineer and Corpus, for the moment at least, are no more warlike then before, and really, that's how we want them. Trying to defeat one would only make things worse. 

Alad has quite obviously stopped/slowed his research on the Infested. He seems to have moved to more tasteful ventures recently.

Fomorian threats are far and few, and whenever they do show up, they don't exactly pose much of a threat. Similarly for the Corpus, they're not doing anything more dastardly as usual.

As for the Sentients: Well, I'd say that they're a fairly minor threat for the moment, considering Hunhow's forces are constantly engaged on Lua, and the rest of them are locked in Tau. Unless the Umbra Questline reveals something, we have no immediate threat from that.

14 hours ago, Heatnix. said:

Even though most people love the concept and story going on, The Second Dream just established that you were a teen playing to be a hero. Possibly facing criticism that the Operator was a dumb idea, The War Within made it so that the Operator is *inside* now and also has powers-- But still is a dumb, emo teen. I thank every day every existing deity that we can turn off their thumblr posts--I mean, Tenno Dialogues.

But you seem to think that having a child as the character is somehow less.... heroic? What would you prefer? Master Chief #2452? Strong Female character #3476?

I'm interested in this story because it's done something different, and so far I'm happy with it. And these dumb emo teen things - aside from the dialogue, the War Within and Second Dream show us that unless you actually provoke them, they're pretty much the opposite of emo or childish (and to be fair, if I had murdered millions, and someone called me 'kid,' I'd be mad too). We have evidence to show that they were excellent teachers, rather friendly with people, and genuinely caring.... but obviously random dialogue trumps this, doesn't it?

14 hours ago, Heatnix. said:

My point is: Do we really need to keep digging into this pointless garbage? No matter how much DE tries to make Operators appeal to some people (me included), I (and hopefully others) find them cliche and now absurd. Literally magical girls right now. Can we move on to conspiracy plots? War on a grand scale? Coup attempts? Espionage that ends in a massive, power change? I mean... come on! Does everything have to be around the emo kids now?

First of all - my Operator is a guy, thank you very much. And secondly, you seem to forget who we are. We're assassins. Not soldiers. We're not meant to 'fight wars on a large scale,' or 'attempt coups,' or 'dethrone everyone.' That's against what we're here for - balance. 

 

Edited May 29, 2017 by PrVonTuckIII

[Tallenar]

I really dont know why some people dont like playing as a patricidal terrorist child soldier power ranger with a kill count that  would turn a certain austrian green with envy.

[OniDax]

I just want an actual start-to-finish story like other good games have, not just these quests that are loosely connected and only tied to Warframes or new gimmicky features. I want a narrative that actually progresses players through the game and gives the game some structure and order.

 

Oh, and some mature acting Operators wouldn't hurt.

Edited May 29, 2017 by A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n

[Teloch]

18 minutes ago, Tallenar said:

patricidal terrorist child soldier power ranger with a kill count that  would turn a certain austrian green with envy

Sweet sweet irony

[BornWithTeeth]

My only issue with the Operators is the dodgy dialogue. If DE were to instead record and rewrite a bunch of dialogue options and tones, and split it into three pools/attitudes, allowing players to make a basic choice at Tenno customisation, that would be amazing.

 

If DE released voice packs for Operators, and there was the option to pay two hundred Platinum for a voice pack which could be described as 'cold, careful space ninja who would attend a tea ceremony with Teshin and sit in companionable silence' I would buy it in a heartbeat.

 

The tricky part would be making that carry through into cinematic quests, but seeing as they have to record new dialogue for them anyway, they might as well. Less than five continuous minutes of dialogue, written and recorded in three different tones? You could do that, DE, without altering the plot.

[PrVonTuckIII]

26 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

My only issue with the Operators is the dodgy dialogue. If DE were to instead record and rewrite a bunch of dialogue options and tones, and split it into three pools/attitudes, allowing players to make a basic choice at Tenno customisation, that would be amazing.

So basically every voice has its own unique dialogue's? Or each disposition?

That would be something to see. I'd like it.

 

[Kaotyke]

31 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

My only issue with the Operators is the dodgy dialogue. If DE were to instead record and rewrite a bunch of dialogue options and tones, and split it into three pools/attitudes, allowing players to make a basic choice at Tenno customisation, that would be amazing.

That is something I can get behind, some lines are just... well, nowhere close.

At least I had confirmation they will be revisiting them... someday.

 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

12 hours ago, Aleksundar said:

If you can do better then go join DE. If not then shut up and play the game. The majority of the story has not been told, and we are experiencing the story in small chunks spread over a long span of real time. Be patient

lol, is this the part where I "constructively" tell you to shut up if you don't want to contribute to the thread in a meaningful way?

😆😆😆

[(PSN)Silverback73]

7 hours ago, Teloch said:

Well, this is the case when the game started without any plot/story at all, then gathered some basic ideas, then reconsider the very concept of its narrative, then launched its main storyline with the SD, and only then the team hired their first professional writer.

Morale: if you plan to tell a story via a game, have the prior one done and prepared before you start developing the latter. 

WF plot is the very quintessence of DE's spontaneity. I will not be surprised if they don't have the completed script for the main story ark up to this day.

Right, but give them a little latitude here.  The real life evolution of the game often determines the ability to invest in and write an in-depth backstory, mythos, and narrative.  Basically, world-building.

DE couldn't have predicted Warframe's ongoing, world-wide success.  In the beginning, they just wanted to create and financially launch a cool Space-Ninja themed dungeon-crawl/shooter hybrid built on some dark sector concepts.

Writing the concepts and pieces of an evolving game into a cohesive story is an Artform unto itself, and a relatively new one.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Right, but give them a little latitude here.  The real life evolution of the game often determines the ability to invest in and write an in-depth backstory, mythos, and narrative.  Basically, world-building.

DE couldn't have predicted Warframe's ongoing, world-wide success.  In the beginning, they just wanted to create and financially launch a cool Space-Ninja themed dungeon-crawl/shooter hybrid built on some dark sector concepts.

Writing the concepts and pieces of an evolving game into a cohesive story is an Artform unto itself, and a relatively new one.

That is entirely fair, but DE also need to do what I would call a consistency/coherency pass over the game's lore.

 

This would start with making a behind the scenes decision on exactly what they want the Operators to be. Are they ignorant children thrown into a war they don't understand? Are they the minds of space ninja mercenaries, incarnated in the bodies of the children they once were? I almost don't care which option DE go for provided they pick one and write the game accordingly.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

22 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That is entirely fair, but DE also need to do what I would call a consistency/coherency pass over the game's lore.

 

This would start with making a behind the scenes decision on exactly what they want the Operators to be. Are they ignorant children thrown into a war they don't understand? Are they the minds of space ninja mercenaries, incarnated in the bodies of the children they once were? I almost don't care which option DE go for provided they pick one and write the game accordingly.       

I believe The Tenno "children" are the turning point--an original story concept created PRIOR to game development, which gives promise the idea that world-building is important to DE.

Compare this to Primes.

Often times story development is completely opposite of game development when using the same concepts retroactively in a given timeline.

Primes are the result of designer skill improvement and the (very smart) decision to financially capitalize on popular Warframe designs by buffing them and adding filagree.  They are a  step in the game's evutionary cycle.

Obviously Primes were born out of standard designs...they evolved from them.

The story is opposite.

 

[BornWithTeeth]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I believe The Tenno "children" are the turning point--an original story concept created PRIOR to game development, which gives promise the idea that world-building is important to DE.

Compare this to Primes.

Often times story development is completely opposite of game development when using the same concepts retroactively in a given timeline.

Primes are the result of designer skill improvement and the (very smart) decision to financially capitalize on popular Warframe designs by buffing them and adding filagree.  They are a  step in the game's evutionary cycle.

Obviously Primes were born out of standard designs...they evolved from them.

The story is opposite.

 

That's fair, but try this little mental comparison/test:

 

The lore says that the Tenno woke from hibernation, designed and built secret space fortresses in which they laid out the delicate water gardens of their dojos, and prior to the Fall had designed weapons like the Boar Prime and Dragon Nikana.

 

The lore also says that the Tenno are children who say things like "So, the Corpus are a cult, worshipping money?" and "Disgusting monstrosities, I think they absorb their victims!" and who lose their temper with Teshin when he points out that they are children.

 

There is an issue with the writing here, chaps. A broad pass over the game by the writers might be called for.

[ExaltedHysteria]

Tbh I like the story, child soldiers exposed to the void trying to find themselves/their way and remember more about what happened / we get more lore along the way? Sounds intriguing! More so than "gritty space hero was controlling our guys all along" or just "you were a simple amorphous entity discovered xyz and that's it" since I've seen these done to dust tbh. This is a concept I haven't seen done or rarely so if anything

[LuckySh0t501]

9 hours ago, Redthirst said:

They should be more mature, but are they really? Lets look at some examples of their maturity(too bad we don't have much in terms of reference material).

In TWW, they:

• Get pissy at Teshin, ignore his warnings and blindly follow him into what is quite clearly a trap.
• Ignore Lotus' request to back down once they realize that the asteroid holds a massive base.
• Try to attack Teshin without his Warframe, even though he couldn't do much back when he had his Warframe.
• Go back to the Kuva Fortress, after they've been effortlessly defeated for the first time, knowing well that if they are defeated again they will die.

Their lines inside the missions are frequently utterly nonsensical("My warframe is strong." / "You'd think they'd clone something a little less... ugly?" / "Ballistics and archaic weapons, crude and dangerous, just like the Grineer." - despite the fact that probably half of all our weapons are using ballistics, not to mention that we also use Grinner weapons) or show that Operators know much less than they are supposed to, seeing as they are thousands of years old("The Grineer deteriorate over time... is that what makes them violent?" / "So... the Corpus are just a cult, worshiping money." / "Disgusting monstrosities, I think they absorb their victims.")

That is the main issue people have with them. The fact that they look like teenagers is fine. The fact that they act like teenagers is not.

This! A million times this. The Tenno were in the beginning portrayed as 1st class soliders, the elite, but it didn't stop there. They developed a culture, designed weapons etc. Now, they wake up from the second dream and all of a suden it's like they forgot everything. and became the whiny little pos.

[ExaltedHysteria]

7 minutes ago, LuckySh0t501 said:

This! A million times this. The Tenno were in the beginning portrayed as 1st class soliders, the elite, but it didn't stop there. They developed a culture, designed weapons etc. Now, they wake up from the second dream and all of a suden it's like they forgot everything. and became the whiny little pos.

To be fair I think they are kinda amnesiac-ish since we spend TWW trying to remember stuff so? Plus the reactions might come from still being trapped in the body/mind of a child/teen despite being mentally much older? Idk - but yes I think the writing is a little bit here and there. (Though I can understand some reactions, I mean I'd be pissed about being up and betrayed to the guys we've been fighting for decades by someone who's a mentor figure - and likely be frustrated to be called a child when you feel much older in spirit/mental age - though with the body age we're stuck in it comes off more as petulance because of it hm)

[(PSN)Silverback73]

2 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

That's fair, but try this little mental comparison/test:

 

The lore says that the Tenno woke from hibernation, designed and built secret space fortresses in which they laid out the delicate water gardens of their dojos, and prior to the Fall had designed weapons like the Boar Prime and Dragon Nikana.

 

The lore also says that the Tenno are children who say things like "So, the Corpus are a cult, worshipping money?" and "Disgusting monstrosities, I think they absorb their victims!" and who lose their temper with Teshin when he points out that they are children.

 

There is an issue with the writing here, chaps. A broad pass over the game by the writers might be called for.

Oh I whole-heartedly agree.  QC and continuity are paramount concerns for a top-notch story.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

15 hours ago, Teloch said:

Unfortunately, no. The bit in teeth has been already taken.

Before all this cliched mess with the kid-soldiers-who-don't-act-like-the-real-kid-soldiers, WF had a somewhat dynamic group plot that was unveiled via the means of time-limited events (Slingstone, Gravidus, Eyes of blight). Even though the real identity of tenno was unknown and actively debated, it was possible to come up with a mature, serious, and deep story of group identity, of personal and collective responsibility, of the choice between following doctrines and forging your own path, of pursuing a clearly-defined goal (or a very personal individual dream) regardless of all the hardships and losses, of the conflict between morals and ethics, of personal freedom, of absolution and ability to forgive oneself, and many more. Even if DE wanted to make protagonist's identity the whole spinning point of the universe (which they kinda did), they could've done it better. Much better. 

Alas, DE decided to make a mishmash of cliches they consider as "cool" (the ones you have mentioned in the original post).

In short: no, WF will never have a substantial story (from your and my point of view). DE will tell their story further, trying to jerk us for some tears/empathy (by telling again and again of how mistreated and suffering the operators are), throwing more "cool" that has little to none reason/justification to be in the plot (like the "blood" of the dead evil rulers of the collapsed empire that simply floats in the freaking air all around the system), preferring the individual plot to the group one, trying to cause the "whoa!" factor (that happened by the end of the SD) again and again, and leaving more plot holes than we leave in grineer/corpus/infected/whatever on the daily basis in-game.

Do you want a serious story that touches deep topics, or an immersible universe? Seek somewhere else.

 

 

I have hope.  Certainly, before hiring serious writing talent, it did seem like a mad cook wildly throwing spices and ingredients around in flurry of activity.

It seems to draw influence from the hero's journey archetype:

http://www.thewritersjourney.com/hero's_journey.htm

and then throw ingredients from manga-pop, Dune, Lord of the Flies, modern super-hero mythology, and a whole host of other pop culture influences into the pot.

I still have hope that before it's all done, the main course tastes awesome.