The Octavia problem

[Marine027]

Just noticed alot of Octavias using just one note  songs spammed to get the best out of the buffs apperently.

Just would like to know what people think of this overall, you rather have something decent to listen to or just spam something?

For me personaly it ruins the frame if it comes down like this on her with Qualitiy over Quantity.

The buffs might needa rework and should happen nearby and tuned down instead of having to tune it with the music.

The idea was nice but as said it ends with people only spam one note or spam notes randomly to trigger buffs as often possible.

And often if a Song is decent, copied or selfmade, it is not valuable for the buffs at times.

Only idea i can come up with at the momet i guess is, we give Octavia a Quick time event, her getting invincible fora short duraiton while she hase to hit the right buttons, if she does it right, people get a random but longer buff, still should be rewarded for decent songs or so somehow without them spamming a easy song for it to press.

[Chipputer]

She's far too powerful for what she does and the one note songs aren't necessarily better so much as just easier to use for you and your party.

Personally I have a regular song and a "meta" song. I use the regular song quite frequently because it has a funky rhythm that I can get my buffs to but my party doesn't appreciate it compared to the "meta" one that they can just smash crouch for a few seconds and be invisible for a while.

As far as I'm concerned, any situation where we can customize something will always have an optimal route and will always have people taking advantage of it. I think that's fine. My issue is with the power level of the frame, but, even then, I can't think of anything to do to tweak her besides reducing numbers.

[Marine027]

12 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

She's far too powerful for what she does and the one note songs aren't necessarily better so much as just easier to use for you and your party.

Personally I have a regular song and a "meta" song. I use the regular song quite frequently because it has a funky rhythm that I can get my buffs to but my party doesn't appreciate it compared to the "meta" one that they can just smash crouch for a few seconds and be invisible for a while.

As far as I'm concerned, any situation where we can customize something will always have an optimal route and will always have people taking advantage of it. I think that's fine. My issue is with the power level of the frame, but, even then, I can't think of anything to do to tweak her besides reducing numbers.

Yeah that is the biggest issue i have withthis, people "optimizing" it to much without much sense even at times.

[Trichouette]

13 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

She's far too powerful for what she does and the one note songs aren't necessarily better so much as just easier to use for you and your party.

Personally I have a regular song and a "meta" song. I use the regular song quite frequently because it has a funky rhythm that I can get my buffs to but my party doesn't appreciate it compared to the "meta" one that they can just smash crouch for a few seconds and be invisible for a while.

As far as I'm concerned, any situation where we can customize something will always have an optimal route and will always have people taking advantage of it. I think that's fine. My issue is with the power level of the frame, but, even then, I can't think of anything to do to tweak her besides reducing numbers.

+1 for... everything, but mostly for the "she's far too powerful" and "there is always an optimal route"

The level of "let's afk" gameplay we got with limbo's rework and octavia is geting insane

2 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

Yeah that is the biggest issue i have withthis, people "optimizing" it to much without much sense even at times.

Maybe because some players don't care much about the music the frame is producing ? I know I don't most of the time, especially since we don't have much customization power over it.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

I'm not a music person but it seems like everything should be based on the tempo (if that's the right word) and not the notes. Not being able to use Metronome with any consistency without making my ears bleed or setting the Mandachord volume to zero is one of the reasons I won't use Octavia again.

[IceColdHawk]

Can't play her without using good music. Playing with spam music or no music at all if you mute her, is like playing mesa with no secondary. I always try to get a good medium. Which means acceptable music with not too impossible to get buffs. But that's me.

[Voltage]

The problem with Octavia is how your volume settings dictate your potential. Try using low or no SFX volume and see your Amp buff output (easiest to use for an example) and watch it has less percentage with your SFX turned down. I do not really see an issue with octavias as you have the option to silence them and if they want to use some spammy song, then maybe that is not their fault, but her mechanics.

Edited June 4, 2017 by --Q--Voltage

[Voltage]

34 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

She's far too powerful for what she does and the one note songs aren't necessarily better so much as just easier to use for you and your party.

Personally I have a regular song and a "meta" song. I use the regular song quite frequently because it has a funky rhythm that I can get my buffs to but my party doesn't appreciate it compared to the "meta" one that they can just smash crouch for a few seconds and be invisible for a while.

As far as I'm concerned, any situation where we can customize something will always have an optimal route and will always have people taking advantage of it. I think that's fine. My issue is with the power level of the frame, but, even then, I can't think of anything to do to tweak her besides reducing numbers.

Powerful compared to what? I understand Octavia is a very amazing frame and can provide many team buffs, but in no way is she overpowered. If you compare her to say Oberon, I could see you saying "far too powerful", but compared to a Roar with possibly 175% of buff completely multiplying all damage, or Nidus Link gaining power strength, or Ash giving team invisibility, I do not see this "far too powerful" as a valid arguement.

Octavia is good, but not overpowered.

Edited June 4, 2017 by --Q--Voltage

[Chipputer]

Just now, --Q--Voltage said:

Powerful compared to what? I understand Octavia is a very amazing frame and can provide many team buffs, but in no way is she overpowered. If you compare her to say Zephyr or Oberon, I could see you saying "far too powerful", but compared to a Roar with possibly 175% of buff completely multiplying all damage, or Nidus Link gaining power strength, I do not see this "far too powerful" as a valid arguement.

Octavia is good, but not overpowered.

She can:

Give you invisibility, buff movement speed, give multishot, give melee damage, throw out a scaling AoE attack, and multiply her allies damage all at the same time.

You can be dishonest about how powerful she is and that's fine, but those of us who actually pay attention are aware of why she's now the go-to for meta farming groups and people trying for long survival scores and such.

[Trichouette]

16 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Octavia is good, but not overpowered.

She can taunt & charm non-stop, in a HUGE range, which makes enemies useless.

THAT is overpowered.

and as Chipputer said, you can add all the buffs and the scaling damage.

Enemies literally kill themselves when you play octavia and you can simply afk while her mallet is activated

Edited June 4, 2017 by Trichouette

[Voltage]

7 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

She can:

Give you invisibility, buff movement speed, give multishot, give melee damage, throw out a scaling AoE attack, and multiply her allies damage all at the same time.

You can be dishonest about how powerful she is and that's fine, but those of us who actually pay attention are aware of why she's now the go-to for meta farming groups and people trying for long survival scores and such.

I would like to see you get all those buffs at the same time. You make it sound like it is like rhino where you cast and the whole team suddenly has these buffs.

I really do not see Octavia being requested for high tier "meta" setups. Please explain there.

Survival long runs can be achieved with anything as long as you are smart and have proper setups. I could use cheesy Naramon, Ash Prime with a LifeOfRio setup, my Rhino with high armor and power strength, Capacitance volt with a whip/polearm with speed buff and Quick Thinking.

Octavia is not overpowered, there are many alternatives that can do the same job just as well. She does have some spots she is unmatched, but every frame has those strengths.

[Trichouette]

2 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

I really do not see Octavia being requested for high tier "meta" setups. Please explain there.

3 minutes ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Octavia is not overpowered, there are many alternatives that can do the same job just as well

Just because other frames are OP that doesn't mean she isn't.

She isn't that much requested because the 4 slots are already used by some other "OP meta frame" like nova or vauban (not saying these frame are fully OP but some of their abilities are...)

[Voltage]

17 hours ago, Trichouette said:

Just because other frames are OP that doesn't mean she isn't.

She isn't that much requested because the 4 slots are already used by some other "OP meta frame" like nova or vauban (not saying these frame are fully OP but some of their abilities are...)

But what is OP? This game is about overpowering enemies. I do not see how nova or vauban is overpowered beyond what is intended. Vauban can be replaced with Rhino, Nova can be replaced with Creeping Terrify Nekros. Sure there are meta setups, but there is always a meta hence it's acronym. You nerf something and it just gets replaced by option 2.

[Trichouette]

1 minute ago, --Q--Voltage said:

But what is OP? This game is about overpowering enemies. I do not see how nova or vauban is overpowered beyond what is intended. Vauban can be replaced with Rhino, Nova can be replaced with Creeping Terrify Nekros. Sure there are meta setups, but there is always a meta hence it's acronym. You nerf something and it just gets replaced by option 2.

And this is part of the problems in this game... as long as all this exist, there won't ever be any difficulty and devs won't manage to create anything challenging.

The fact that pressing 1 key make the whole enemy's army useless is a huge problem, but devs can't change that without causing a riot.

You may find it normal that octavia can literally afk and the enemies kill themselves meanwhile, but I don't and I know i'm not the only one.

[Fallen_Echo]

19 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

The problem with Octavia is how your volume settings dictate your potential. Try using low or no SFX volume and see your Amp buff output (easiest to use for an example) and watch it has less percentage with your SFX turned down. I do not really see an issue with octavias as you have the option to silence them and if they want to use some spammy song, then maybe that is not their fault, but her mechanics.

Thats not how it works, thats not how any of this works!

 

I run a silent song on octavia and the amp buff percentage is based on you firing and enemies closing in and attacking. The song, rythm, loudness doesnt matter at all.

[(XBOX)ABucket0fKFC]

I tried playing her with decent enough music, but it's way too inconsistent to warrant using for me. When I'm far into a defense/survival/interception, I don't have time to wait for my (or another Octavia's) 3's notes to line up. I'd rather just have them on command, essentially. So if that means sacrificing quality for consistency, I'm more than willing to do it.

That, and they locked her other instruments behind 5(?) 50-platinum paywalls, which lead me to not care even further about the quality of the music since I'm limited to only the base one.

[Voltage]

6 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Thats not how it works, thats not how any of this works!

 

I run a silent song on octavia and the amp buff percentage is based on you firing and enemies closing in and attacking. The song, rythm, loudness doesnt matter at all.

 

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

 

Wait you meant the main volume settings? I thought we are talking about the songs volume setting.

My song is muted by default from the mandachords settings, not by muting the entire game.

[Voltage]

2 hours ago, Trichouette said:

And this is part of the problems in this game... as long as all this exist, there won't ever be any difficulty and devs won't manage to create anything challenging.

The fact that pressing 1 key make the whole enemy's army useless is a huge problem, but devs can't change that without causing a riot.

You may find it normal that octavia can literally afk and the enemies kill themselves meanwhile, but I don't and I know i'm not the only one.

Should we just cry nerf until Octavia is next to Zephyr as people did to Telos Boltace which is now the most useless melee? Challenge is what you make of it. I still find challenge in this game. Of course in your eyes that might not be a "real challenge", but this game is not designed to become a dark souls or such. This is a hack and slash whether you like it or not. I am not going to argue in a thread about crying nerf.

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, Trichouette said:

And this is part of the problems in this game... as long as all this exist, there won't ever be any difficulty and devs won't manage to create anything challenging.

The fact that pressing 1 key make the whole enemy's army useless is a huge problem, but devs can't change that without causing a riot.

You may find it normal that octavia can literally afk and the enemies kill themselves meanwhile, but I don't and I know i'm not the only one.

You want challange? Go for negative powerstrenght build on octavia and dont equip any hp, shield mods.

Seriously this eternal cry for nerfing stuff is getting old. You know how many times i have dropped down the mallet just to watch it expire because no enemy found it threatening enough in my squad to attack it? Sure it works well in solo, but this is not a solo game, i repeat NOT A SOLO GAME.

Might ask you why does it hurt you soo much that octavia can get a breating rooms for maximum 1 minute? 

When you make an optional no downside build the mallet is active for approx 30 sec and has 15m range, thats pretty far from the sit back and relax afk playstyle.

[Trichouette]

1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Should we just cry nerf until Octavia is next to Zephyr as people did to Telos Boltace which is now the most useless melee? Challenge is what you make of it. I still find challenge in this game. Of course in your eyes that might not be a "real challenge", but this game is not designed to become a dark souls or such. This is a hack and slash whether you like it or not. I am not going to argue in a thread about crying nerf.

We shouldn't have to make challenge ourselves, the game should be challenging. Challenge is better than RNG.

Everything doesn't have to be OP or useless, but being inbetween is hard. You don't have to be as OP as octavia to be playable or to be as awful and forgotten as zephyr.

Same for the "challenge" part, it doesn't have to be either dark soul or a barbie game difficulty level.

31 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

You want challange? Go for negative powerstrenght build on octavia and dont equip any hp, shield mods.

As I said, it's not my job to make the game challenging. And with positive or negative strength, octavia still has taunt and charm.

31 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Might ask you why does it hurt you soo much that octavia can get a breating rooms for maximum 1 minute? 

Max 1 minute ? You mean 1 minute + 1 minute + 1 minute +... etc etc because THERE IS NO COOLDOWN in this game

And don't tell me "it costs energy" because energy cost is a huge joke

31 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

When you make an optional no downside build the mallet is active for approx 30 sec and has 15m range, thats pretty far from the sit back and relax afk playstyle.

Double that range with her ultimate and you get a 30m "aggro free" area

(and i'm not even talking about her other stat, or how strength is irrelevant to the mallet's aggro power)

Edited June 5, 2017 by Trichouette

[IceColdHawk]

1 hour ago, Trichouette said:

We shouldn't have to make challenge ourselves, the game should be challenging.

You're expecting that from something that isn't what you're assuming. Warframes challenge is RNG. I don't need anyone to tell me that actual challenge is better than RNG. I know that. I know how awesome the feeling is to have achieved something hard from other games. But warframe isn't the game for that. 

Think about this. What would you achieve by making sorties or kuva floods harder by making our gear weaker? So you can say "Look at me, i'm so elite!"? All you would achieve is making the grind even more of a suffering. Because no matter how tough and cooperation-demanding sorties can get, you will still get a nut kick as a reward.

I get that you'd like this feeling of having achieved something hard, you're certainly not the only one. But it just doesn't fit into warframes F2P model. All it's about is grinding, collecting loot, getting stronger and creating your own "endgame". And unless there is something that actively denies gameplay or ruins gameplay of your teammates, nerfing for the sake of "it looks kinda OP to me" will only increase grind and make people go mad and/or quit the game.

Challenge should not come without appropriate rewarding. And due to the nature of it relying on RNG to incentivize users to pay for this game, this won't come. If you can get things by being gud (challenge), then there would be too many people being gud and getting their stuff which means no dosh. And if you increase the difficulty of the game without changing how you get rewarded (even harder grind), you're just gonna turn off players because: "Why sweat for getting nothing? I'm gonna play something that actually pays off for my effort!"

Think about it.

Edited June 5, 2017 by IceColdHawk

[Marine027]

20 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

You're expecting that from something that isn't what you're assuming. Warframes challenge is RNG. I don't need anyone to tell me that actual challenge is better than RNG. I know that. I know how awesome the feeling is to have achieved something hard from other games. But warframe isn't the game for that. 

Think about this. What would you achieve by making sorties or kuva floods harder by making our gear weaker? So you can say "Look at me, i'm so elite!"? All you would achieve is making the grind even more of a suffering. Because no matter how tough and cooperation-demanding sorties can get, you will still get a nut kick as a reward.

I get that you'd like this feeling of having achieved something hard, you're certainly not the only one. But it just doesn't fit into warframes F2P model. All it's about is grinding, collecting loot, getting stronger and creating your own "endgame". And unless there is something that actively denies gameplay or ruins gameplay of your teammates, nerfing for the sake of "it looks kinda OP to me" will only increase grind and make people go mad and/or quit the game.

Challenge should not come without appropriate rewarding. And due to the nature of it relying on RNG to incentivize users to pay for this game, this won't come. If you can get things by being gud (challenge), then there would be too many people being gud and getting their stuff which means no dosh. And if you increase the difficulty of the game without changing how you get rewarded (even harder grind), you're just gonna turn off players because: "Why sweat for getting nothing? I'm gonna play something that actually pays off for my effort!"

Think about it.

Very true words, this describes the game very well.

And peopel sadly have to accept if they complain about RNG in a RNG based game they might play the wrong game all together.

Sure it can be tedious but i perosnaly play the game aslong i have fun with it with of course working abilitys or weapons without interrupting other peples fun.

I not need any "Endgame", i jsut paly along testing all weapons and frames and collect all, that is my goal as example, owning all msotly as far possible, sitll lackign some corrupted mods in 3-4 years by now as example.

But it not stops my fun if i not have it, like to play the frame and weapon i want and just take the game as it is without expecting to much.

Like sorties i just accept my reward and never really aim for anything, and guess what, i own 34 rivens by now for different weapons, and i not even want them much, i jsut want to colelct and max my mods, so i am actually in need of endo adn not even midn lenses, becasue i collect focus randomly, and new weapon i can use a lesn already then, so i not get people complaining so much. Rivens are faield bandaid anyway in my eyes so people should not bother to much with it and onyl see it as bonus but not mandatory.

[Trichouette]

44 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

You're expecting that from something that isn't what you're assuming. Warframes challenge is RNG. I don't need anyone to tell me that actual challenge is better than RNG. I know that. I know how awesome the feeling is to have achieved something hard from other games. But warframe isn't the game for that. 

Think about this. What would you achieve by making sorties or kuva floods harder by making our gear weaker? So you can say "Look at me, i'm so elite!"? All you would achieve is making the grind even more of a suffering. Because no matter how tough and cooperation-demanding sorties can get, you will still get a nut kick as a reward.

I get that you'd like this feeling of having achieved something hard, you're certainly not the only one. But it just doesn't fit into warframes F2P model. All it's about is grinding, collecting loot, getting stronger and creating your own "endgame". And unless there is something that actively denies gameplay or ruins gameplay of your teammates, nerfing for the sake of "it looks kinda OP to me" will only increase grind and make people go mad and/or quit the game.

Challenge should not come without appropriate rewarding. And due to the nature of it relying on RNG to incentivize users to pay for this game, this won't come. If you can get things by being gud (challenge), then there would be too many people being gud and getting their stuff which means no dosh. And if you increase the difficulty of the game without changing how you get rewarded (even harder grind), you're just gonna turn off players because: "Why sweat for getting nothing? I'm gonna play something that actually pays off for my effort!"

Think about it.

Well you gave the answer in your own post : By making the game more rewarding and less grindy you can increase the challenge without making players quit.

If you increase the challenge, the missions last longer and you can allow yourself to give more reward to the player, like, instead of doing 5 time the same mission in a short amount of time for a reward, you can make a longer mission that grant the same amount of loot but that is way more intertaining and less tedious.

Just because the game is F2P it doesn't mean it has to rely ONLY on RNG, making players farm while still acknowledging that they farmed so hard is possible.

You can make a new player do saturn's boss 20 time to get ember, but at some point he'll get annoyed and leave if he doesn't get that third part he's missing. Meanwhile you could allow him to exchange 10 or 15 duplicate parts just to get the missing one. That's just an example, in the end he spent a huge amount of time in game, which is all what matters. You can't keep your players forever with just RNG, at some point they'll get lucky and get what they want, and do something else until the next update. But it's better for them to wait happily than hating the game

 

Having RNG in a game is good, knowing how and where to use it is better.

And just because the game is F2P and casual it doesn't have to be "press one key to remove all enemies". If I wanted something that easy I'd play garry's mod.

 

You guys should stop seeing everything "white or black", things can be inbetween, look how they changed the void loot, we went from "a sh*tload of useless parts looted in quick missions" to "you have to farm more to get the relic and then refine it but you'll have a bigger shot at what you seek"

 

18 minutes ago, Marine027 said:

And peopel sadly have to accept if they complain about RNG in a RNG based game they might play the wrong game all together.

Please for the love of god read yourself again before posting... You never do it and I know it because I often see your posts on the forum (not insulting here, just asking for a favor)

 

I'm not complaining about RNG but about a wrong use of it. Sadly we're derailing the thread

Edited June 5, 2017 by Trichouette

[Fallen_Echo]

13 hours ago, Trichouette said:

Double that range with her ultimate and you get a 30m "aggro free" area

(and i'm not even talking about her other stat, or how strength is irrelevant to the mallet's aggro power)

Sure 30m area where the enemies will still ignore it if any of your squadmates decide to shoot into that crowd of mobs. Amp doubles range and damage but thats useless if nothing attacks the mallet.

You know what kind of aggro power the mallet has? Technically zero, its nothing but an attackeable target to the enemy just like a specter. Its insane how many times it just fails to attract enemies. I personally wish it would be based of power strenght because that would mean that the mobs would completely ignore more when the orb is placed, not like what happens currently.