Equinox in her current form is wasted potential

[Antiphoton]

This is not a "buff her, she's underpowered" thread. Actually, Rest and Maim are two very strong and end-game worthy abilities. But that's the problem, she has seven abilities, of which most are completely useless.

She was implemented as a versatile frame that changes forms according to the needs of the situation, but currently that is not what she does, mostly because of the following reasons:

- The buffs from Metamorphosis are too small and their duration too short. It's never worth it to switch forms just to get the buffs.

- Rage is extremely useless and even counter-productive in most scenarios. It could be useful in a slower paced game, but it has no place in a horde shooter. If you have 30 enemies coming at you at the same time, it doesn't make sense to waste time to put a small debuff on only one of them.

- Pacify is only useful with the Peaceful Provocation augment, which requires a dedicated build that breaks the other abilities, and makes it mandatory to stay in one form for the whole mission.

- Provoke is barely useful with a dedicated build, and there are other frames that can buff power strenght better, but it isn't as bad as other parts of the frame.

- Mend is useless. If someone needs to be healed, they can do it a lot more efficiently with a second of channeling with Life Strike. Besides, if you find yourself in a situation where you need healing and you try to Mend, in most cases you'll die anyway, because of the long cast times and the build up. It's a lot more effective to simply put everyone around you to sleep and GTFO. Not even to mention that you can store thousands of damage in Mend, and 99% of it will go to waste because of overheals.

- Most of her abilities have a build-up, which once achieved, actually encourages the player to keep it and NOT switch forms.

What all of this causes is that there is simply no practical reason to change forms mid-mission. You will be either spamming Rest or Maim the whole time. And a frame that seemed complex and offering an interesting gameplay, ends up being boring.

 

What I propose:

- Nerf the buffs from Metamorphosis by at least 50%, but make them permanent for each form.

- Give Rage a much bigger range and make it castable on a zone, not on a single enemy (similar to Reckoning).

- Pacify and Provoke should not deactive upon switching forms, but rather convert to the respective variant. This is basically just a QoL change that is much needed

- Mend should not be a "cast, charge, release" ability, but rather a toggle that puts a healing over time effect on the members in range, as long as you have stored damage.

- The stored damage, either for Mend or Maim, should not be lost while switching forms, but rather converted to the respective form.

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Antiphoton

[Chewarette]

- Peaceful Provocation without build up time would be a straight-increase mandatory mod, I think that's not DE's philosophy for Augments. I'm fine with its current version (even though they should increase the build-up speed of the Night form), if it had to change, maybe make it that it gives you half the bonus from the other form (if you're in nightform, your 3 will reduce the damage dealt by enemies as usual, and with the augment it will also provide 50% of the day buff, for example).

- Metamorphosis' buffs... Yeah, I thought it was like that that it worked when I first played her. Was quickly disappointed.

- Mend needs an active stuff that makes sense. Either healing over time (amount depending on the damage stored) to replace its charging process, or any buff/debuff to enemies/allies in range. As Maim blinds enemies, I was thinking that maybe Mend may reduce enemies' accuracy.

[Xekrin]

I'll just leave this here, as it is somewhat relevant to the topic.

Also +1 because while Equinox is fun to play I agree that once her first ability is used it is hardly touched again during a mission.  Occasionally if I survive I will switch from day to night to heal myself and even less rarely will I activate mend to heal a team mate but the chances of saving someone's life with a heal from an ability that constantly drains energy on the offchance someone gets hurts eventually just isn't worth it.

I also use her second ability in both forms constantly (day form is mostly for fun, not really with any strategy in mind) but it has such a low range, even with overextended that it requires a mash spam of multiple casts to make any sort of difference, and the augment is even less useful as it works off that very same small range.

Nullifiers are the bane and terror of night form augmented 3rd ability users, it takes ages to max out the slow but even the tiniest touch will destroy all that effort.  And gods forbid you misjump and fall into a pit.

Equinox is a great frame with a lot of fun abilities and amazing potential, but the sheer number of small tweaks she needs that can be found by anyone who plays her on a semi-regular basis is pretty astounding.

[Antiphoton]

2 minutes ago, Chewarette said:

- Peaceful Provocation without build up time would be a straight-increase mandatory mod, I think that's not DE's philosophy for Augments.

It kinda is a straight increase right now, just with the extra clunkiness of limiting your form swapping. I agree with that philosophy tho, so now that I think about it, it would be better to simply speak about the base abilities and not the augment, I'll edit the OP, thanks.

[Azamagon]

There are more things that could be done:

* The Duality augment could get a duration buff, but with a a slight damage nerf to compensate.

* Rage could stun enemies (animation á la Chaos, fitting for someone overwhelmed by rage) then disarm the enraged enemies for a duration. Works wonderfully with the rest of her kit too.

* P&P could be temporary buffs or debuffs, depending on the trigger:

• Provoke could consume 5 energy on Equinox when an ally (or Equinox herself ofc) uses an ability within its aura, which then buffs the used ability along with keeping the Power Strength bonus on them for 5 seconds. This buff won't be refreshed on the same ally until its individual buff has expired.
• Pacify could debuff an enemy that enters its aura for 2 energy, reducing their damage output for 10 seconds (Damage reduction is always the full value too, since it is a debuff). This debuff won't be refreshed on the same enemy until its individual debuff has expired first.
  These changes to P&P would heavily reduce their energydrains, particularly for Pacify.

* The P&P augment could need a complete revamp so it fits her apparent adaptable style. Current effects becoming instant would be ok, but the slowdown on Pacify would need to be reduced (cut in half or so?), or it'd be far too good.

* Mend could have some innate passive effect (to mirror the passive bleed of Maim). That could either be to restore some health over time, or restore shields over time, or to reduce status durations. Anything really. That, along with the stored damage being able to restore health too (at some specific max healing rate, so it doesn't make you immortal). Then, releasing its charge could create an "Iron Skin"-esque shield on affected allies (but has a max duration and doesn't block status etc), the value of the "skin" being a certain lowered % of the stored charge, and split among affected allies.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Azamagon

[ShadowStalker]

38 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

The stored damage, either for Mend or Maim, should not be lost while switching forms, but rather converted to the respective form.

 

this please this will be really really helpful

[Milinko]

39 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

Nerf the buffs from Metamorphosis by at least 50%, but make them permanent for each form.

No because this makes it a pointless activated passive no ability in warframe at all should have an ability that's permanent unless it's a passive.

45 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

- Give Rage a much bigger range and make it castable on a zone, not on a single enemy (similar to Reckoning)

Yeah, just yeah.

46 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

Peaceful Provocation should not have a build up time. Make the effect of the augment instant.

If it had a higher cap it I would feel that it had merit, because without build up the augment should do something else because that then means why not just let power strength affect it up to this point.

51 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

- Mend should not be a "cast, charge, release" ability, but rather a toggle that puts a healing over time effect on the members in range, as long as you have stored damage.

I feel like that makes her Oberon so a slight tweek to this would be as long as damage is stored you can heal allies but the healing of allies would drain said damage that's stored to me that feels more "balanced", and of course the how the damage is converted scales would be affected by strength and efficiency and not duration however of course the drain is affected by efficiency and duration.

 

54 minutes ago, Antiphoton said:

- The stored damage, either for Mend or Maim, should not be lost while switching forms, but rather converted to the respective form.

 

There is an issue wit this which is why they haven't done it and that reason is that maim can build crap tons of damage in it's own right so cast maim for like 3 seconds and then you have mend up for forever but if this maim got some sort of change to it's core build up mechanic then yeah I would very much like this. Oh like if Maim had a build up and use mechanic like the one I mentioned for mend so it could only deal damage based on the damage you build up and if things get to hairy so you could still make sense of using the slash nuke make the rate of which it uses up the damage the same as it is now and mends heal nuke also give certain buffs along side the heal like giving everyone an armor buff and movement speed buff. With this the way to build damage would also be used and give a "balance" to all her outputs... sorry for using the same joke twice.

[Antiphoton]

7 minutes ago, Milinko said:

No because this makes it a pointless activated passive no ability in warframe at all should have an ability that's permanent unless it's a passive.

Uhmm... Switching forms is the active ability, remember?

7 minutes ago, Milinko said:

If it had a higher cap it I would feel that it had merit, because without build up the augment should do something else because that then means why not just let power strength affect it up to this point.

I edited that part in the OP, disregard it.

 

7 minutes ago, Milinko said:

I feel like that makes her Oberon so a slight tweek to this would be as long as damage is stored you can heal allies but the healing of allies would drain said damage that's stored to me that feels more "balanced", and of course the how the damage is converted scales would be affected by strength and efficiency and not duration however of course the drain is affected by efficiency and duration.

You just said with different words the exact same idea I expressed in the OP.

 

7 minutes ago, Milinko said:

There is an issue wit this which is why they haven't done it and that reason is that maim can build crap tons of damage in it's own right so cast maim for like 3 seconds and then you have mend up for forever but if this maim got some sort of change to it's core build up mechanic then yeah I would very much like this. Oh like if Maim had a build up and use mechanic like the one I mentioned for mend so it could only deal damage based on the damage you build up and if things get to hairy so you could still make sense of using the slash nuke make the rate of which it uses up the damage the same as it is now and mends heal nuke also give certain buffs along side the heal like giving everyone an armor buff and movement speed buff. With this the way to build damage would also be used and give a "balance" to all her outputs... sorry for using the same joke twice.

I'm not sure what are you talking about. Mend & Maim store damage at the same rate, which is: damage done by you or your allies in range. The only place where Maim stores damage by itself is against lvl 15 enemies.

Edited June 7, 2017 by Antiphoton

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Rage is actually an AOE, the same as Rest. The augment makes it great, too, since it's based on incoming damage and not your outgoing weapon damage. Meaning it's multiplicative with all forms of outgoing bonus damage. Very powerful ability. The speed buff is... questionable, though. I'm not clear on the reasoning behind it. Unlike MP, it doesn't accelerate spawn rate because it only affects local enemies.

That being said, I completely agree with your sentiment. Equinox should not lose her buildup when switching forms. Being able to auto-dump Mend & Maim is nice, but not as useful as utilizing her entire kit. Form switching is the entire point of Equinox, there shouldn't be an option that discourages it. Buildup is something she should be actively working on, and then she should be allowed to choose where and how she dumps that buildup.

I suspect Equinox's forms are mutually exclusive for performance reasons rather than balance. On lower mid-tier rigs and especially console, you'll see a pronounced delay after casting Metamorphosis where your powers don't immediately switch, before the actual lockout. After that, there will be another brief delay where she can't use abilities. The period where your abilities have a lockout icon is by design, but the first and third delays are due to performance problems. This problem exists on all Warframes, and occurs any time you take an action that temporarily restricts inputs.

Edited June 7, 2017 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[Antiphoton]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Rage is actually an AOE, the same as Rest. The augment makes it great, too, since it's based on incoming damage and not your outgoing weapon damage. Meaning it's multiplicative with all forms of outgoing bonus damage. Very powerful ability. The speed buff is... questionable, though. I'm not clear on the reasoning behind it. Unlike MP, it doesn't accelerate spawn rate because it only affects local enemies.

That being said, I completely agree with your sentiment. Equinox should not lose her buildup when switching forms. Being able to auto-dump Mend & Maim is nice, but not as useful as utilizing her entire kit. Form switching is the entire point of Equinox, there shouldn't be an option that discourages it. Buildup is something she should be actively working on, and then she should be allowed to choose where and how she dumps that buildup.

I suspect Equinox's forms are mutually exclusive for performance reasons rather than balance. On lower mid-tier rigs and especially console, you'll see a pronounced delay after casting Metamorphosis where your powers don't immediately switch, before the actual lockout. After that, there will be another brief delay where she can't use abilities. The period where your abilities have a lockout icon is by design, but the first and third delays are due to performance problems. This problem exists on all Warframes, and occurs any time you take an action that temporarily restricts inputs.

Yup, I know that it's a small AOE, when I say as an example that you would want to use it on one guy from a mob of 30, it's because of how I prioritize actions during battles. For example, I feel that it's ok if I have to cast Rest several times, because there may be situations where I'm overwhelmed and I need to buy time. Rest is a good tool in that case. Rage on the other hand, I don't find it worthy because of how irrelevant that effect is. You are loosing energy and time to cast a debuff on an enemy or small group of enemies that you would have killed in one shot anyway without the debuff. The only way I can see it being worthwile is affecting a larger amount of enemies at once.

 

And about the second point, I always feared that that was the case, but I'm not sure. Several months ago I was doing some tests about it, but I should repeat them now because I don't remember the results exactly, hehe. But, for example, I'm almost certain that if you get a status proc on your frame and then switch forms, the proc remains after the transition.

[Mousarchy]

honestly i I still think kills inside her mend should give a heal on kill. would make it usuable.
but having it keep the store on change would be nice. and turn mend into a trickle heal that absorbs death and drains the absorb to heal allies. cuz as it is. the heal is too massive and too difficult to use effectively. have the uncast work the same way as an emergency burst heal.

otherwise ya. having the buffs from 1 stay on permemantly (would make night feel more def and day more off as should) honestly tahts teh only issues ive had with it...personally. but good work all the same.

[tnccs215]

3 hours ago, Chewarette said:

- Peaceful Provocation without build up time would be a straight-increase mandatory mod, I think that's not DE's philosophy for Augments.

That's... Simply not true. At all. The vast majority of augments are straight increases, usually something done to compensate the fact they occupy a precious modslot, and many, many of them are already considered band aid mandatory mods. Unfortunately. 

Like, I'd love if it wasn't their design philosophy. But frankly, I don't think they have a design philosophy at all in what regards to power balance. 

Regarding what you said about Mend, I agree but healing overtime would simply be redundant with the discharge - while you can never deal too much damage, in the moment you fully heal your party, it's useless beyond that. 

So, something parallel is a better option. Either status immunity or, as proposed in Archwizard's post, removing the shield recharge delay. 

Edited June 7, 2017 by tnccs215

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

The speed buff is... questionable, though. I'm not clear on the reasoning behind it. Unlike MP, it doesn't accelerate spawn rate because it only affects local enemies.

I think it's just to flesh out the ability beyond it just being a straight-up debuff. (The enemy becomes enraged, coming at you harder but letting its guard down.) Perhaps it's also a challenge to come in tandem with the benefit, making the enemy easier to kill but a little harder to hit.

[tnccs215]

30 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I think it's just to flesh out the ability beyond it just being a straight-up debuff. (The enemy becomes enraged, coming at you harder but letting its guard down.) Perhaps it's also a challenge to come in tandem with the benefit, making the enemy easier to kill but a little harder to hit.

Yeah, except, in practice, it makes the ability completely unusable. The bonus you get isn't big enough to matter, and the bonus they get is too big. Result: at lower levels (when the speed buff is manageable) it's useless, at higher levels its deadly... To you. 

Frankly, I think this was a rather misguided attempt of DE to "balance" Equinox. I notice they did that a lot to her. Swear she's the only frame they somehow were afraid to make too powerful. 

[Asdryu]

I really feel both buffs of the 3rd should be kept to take advantage of switching forms, at least while active. Switching forms is just counter productive or just too slow in general.

[Chewarette]

8 hours ago, tnccs215 said:

Regarding what you said about Mend, I agree but healing overtime would simply be redundant with the discharge - while you can never deal too much damage, in the moment you fully heal your party, it's useless beyond that. 

So, something parallel is a better option. Either status immunity or, as proposed in Archwizard's post, removing the shield recharge delay. 

As well as Antiphoton proposed, the Healing over Time would replace the discharge. If you have 1k stored damage, you heal for 50hp/second. 2k stored, 100hp/second etc. All this capped at a certain value to avoid having 1000hp/second regen at one point.

The discharge could be changed to something else. For example a damage reduction of XX% (depending on the stored damage discharged) for XX seconds on allies, a short invincibility, overshield, damage increase buff... Lots of things are possible.

[ScribbleClash]

17 hours ago, Antiphoton said:

there are other frames that can buff power strenght better

Other than Nidus, name one. (also worth mentioning, Nidus can only give the buff himself and one additional target)

In general I do not feel Equinox' powers are in a bad place. The only one I dislike is rage, as giving the enemy speed is more of a progress-speedup-tool and the format in which it is used is not viable for that. Mend is not great, but also not useless.

In my opinion, bear in mind this is very unlikely to ever happen, Equinox Metamorphosis augment should become part of the ability and the Metamorphosis carries your abilities as long as it lasts. This'd open the possibility to juggle forms in order to keep them running.

[Antiphoton]

4 hours ago, ScribbleClash said:

Other than Nidus, name one.

Nidus and Rhino. I was also thinking about Mirage at first (with her augment), but then I remembered that she only buffs weapon damage, not power strenght.

I don't think her powers are as bad as some other frames, I'm talking more about her general playstyle. In any meaningfully challenging mission an Equinox would be

a) Exclusively spamming Rest

b) Exclusively spamming Maim

c) Not taken at all because there are far better options

 

I'm ok with option c, she doesn't need to be top tier meta. I just want her to be more enjoyable to play.

[ScribbleClash]

4 hours ago, Antiphoton said:

Nidus and Rhino. I was also thinking about Mirage at first (with her augment), but then I remembered that she only buffs weapon damage, not power strenght.

I don't think her powers are as bad as some other frames, I'm talking more about her general playstyle. In any meaningfully challenging mission an Equinox would be

a) Exclusively spamming Rest

b) Exclusively spamming Maim

c) Not taken at all because there are far better options

 

I'm ok with option c, she doesn't need to be top tier meta. I just want her to be more enjoyable to play.

Rhino does not increase power strenght and Nidus is not a different frame from Nidus.

Enjoyable play is a very subjective thing, as such I cannot do other than disagree with your opinion on this.

[Antiphoton]

10 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

Rhino does not increase power strenght and Nidus is not a different frame from Nidus.

Enjoyable play is a very subjective thing, as such I cannot do other than disagree with your opinion on this.

I had to double check this, and I stand corrected. I didn't expect them to go as far as to separate buffs to warframe abilities damage from power strength.

Anyway, I made this thread to express what I would find enjoyable, yes. So, I guess we can agree to disagree.