Possible enemy scaling fix?

[Fallen_Echo]

So yesterday as i was running throught the sortie final round i realised something.

Currently if anybody want to get into really high level content they either have to use the meta/cheese gears or just switch to the invisibility focus, this is because our enemies have infinite scaling on everything.

My idea is basically 2 new scaling types mod, one for weapons and one for frames.

Examples:

Scaling serration: grants extra 3% damage for every level the target has. This mod reaches 165% damage boost when the enemies reach lv50 and continues to empower you as the enemies level up. To balance it, this mod is incompatible with serration. With this mod we hopefully fixed the eternal hp, armor and shield growth the mobs have.

Void field: For every enemy killed the player gains additional health, shield and armor. This scaling mod is dedicated for those who run long missions on squishy frames. The bonuses are dependant on the frames the player puts this on. On a "generic frame" the bonus is 10 hp, 10 shield and 5 armor per kill. The lower the players stats are the bigger is the bonus. For example Inaros would get 1hp per kill as he has the most base hp but would get 20 additional shield per kill as he dont have any. As balance this mod is incompatable with all shield, hp and armor increasing mods.

Void mastery: The player gains additional health, shield and armor for every ability cast. This version works as the upper one taking into account the frames base stats to give the bonus, the difference is the how you get it as this one was created those who are more in a support role and not in killing masses. The gain on a "generic frame" here is +20 hp, shield and +10 armor and +1 max energy for every 10 cast. As preciously you cant use this if you use ehp mods or the void field.

 

 

[Cyriann]

Not sure that kind of work around wouldn't end up being only a band aid fix as those three mods would end up being the only possible way to get infinite scaling. 

The actual problem is how the enemy are scaling, and especially the armor value that suddenly starts shooting through the roof as levels increase. So it is more the scaling system that needs to be rethought from the ground up than to apply multiple band aids (Riven, your idea, cheese meta, etc...) to the problem to try to hide it. 

 

Plus, DE said countless times that they want to get rid of "mandatory mods" like serration and all straight damage boosters or absolutely necessary mods to make a frame viable in the long run. This idea would just add more to the pile. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Cyriann

[Jiminez_Burial]

My issue here is that if you're wanting to fight lvl 100+ enemies, it's because you want to be challenged.  By having a mod that makes it so you scale with enemies it removes the reason you'd be fighting them anyway.  With sorties, they're considered end-game content so of course you need good equipment.  If you're having to use cheese tactics during a sortie, then maybe it's because you don't have the equipment progress needed yet to complete the missions with the more usual tactics.

How enemies scale is a separate issue that nothing short of a re-code of enemy AI can solve (which if I remember correctly is actually currently in the works)..

[Volinus7]

With scaling on both sides you can play for eternity lol. Eternal farmville much?

 

Full balance and difficulty with definitive breakpoints are what Warframe needs in order to make the game less dumb. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Volinus7

[THeMooN85]

Scalling our warframes abilities with enemies lvl would be the best solution.

But that probably will never happen.

[W3zeer]

Our damage output should not scale indefinetly with the enemy, or the whole point of increasing levels is kind of useless. What needs a cap, at least in my opinion, is the damage the enemy does to us. because far before we can't kill them anymore, even the tankiest frame gets oneshot every time you're hit. Not sure if shieldgating will solve this on its own, but we'll see ;)

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Scaling serration: grants extra 3% damage for every level the target has. This mod reaches 165% damage boost when the enemies reach lv50 and continues to empower you as the enemies level up. To balance it, this mod is incompatible with serration. With this mod we hopefully fixed the eternal hp, armor and shield growth the mobs have.

This wouldn't fix armor scaling, which is really the biggest problem with scaling.

[P0Pz]

I like the frame scaling point. 

If you have 100 hp and join a mission with enemies starting lvl of 80... 

Does your suggestion add direct 3% × 80 (+240 hp) or nothing until they reach lvl 81 and then adds first time +3% hp?

I would love the last version, still offering enemies a head start, but we could try to hold the differences somehow or reduce the amount of points they are running away. While offering us later a bit more hits to survive.

Like someone already said enemies damage should have a maximum upscaling and then stop.

While your suggestion needs also a maximun upscaling. Lets say a limit by 100 times for both sides? 3% from 100 hp; 3×100 is the limit (+300hp)...

So a frame with 450 starting hp would have at max 450 +1350 = 1800 hp.

Adding now some armor and/or armor buffs to increase/establish a frames EHP....it would increase every frames survival-kit great and for those tanky frames finaly a key to be a real "MeatWall". 

I like that idea 😊

Edited June 14, 2017 by P0Pz

[Fallen_Echo]

3 minutes ago, P0Pz said:

I like the frame scaling point. 

If you have 100 hp and join a mission with enemies starting lvl of 80... 

Does your suggestion add direct 3% × 80 (+240 hp) or nothing until they reach lvl 81 and then adds first time +3% hp? 

I would love the last version, still offering enemies a head start, but we could try to hold the differences somehow or reduce the amount of points they are running away. While offering us later a bit more hits to survive.

Like someone already said enemies damge should have a maximum upscaling and the stop

While your suggestion needs also a maximun upscaling. Lets say a limit by 100 times? 3% from 100 hp; 3×100 is the limit (+300hp)...

So a frame with 450 starting hp would have at max 450 +1350 = 1800 hp.

Adding now some armor and/or armor buffs to increase establish a frames EHP....it would increase every frames survival-kit great and for those tanky frames finaly a key to be a real "MeatWall". 

I like that idea 😊

Okay you mixed up something here, only my damage bonus mod suggestion is based on enemy levels.

The frame suggestion adds hp, shield and armor based on either kills or on ability uses.

At 100 kills your "generic frame" would gain +1000hp and if you choosed a frame with the lowest base hp then that bonus could be +2000hp.

Now that i read this throught im sure you mixed up the damage and the hp suggestions.

[P0Pz]

@Fallen_Echo

My bad..jep..sry. was driving while reading/typing. T-.-T

Nvm. It is still imo a great point.

- would you like to put in a limit like until 100 kills/casts triggering the effect ?)

I would leave 1 "basic stats mod" working with your frame suggestion (Vitality or Redirection or Steel Fiber).

Edited June 14, 2017 by P0Pz

[TENNO_NOT_FOUND]

@P0Pz Don't do that, we need you alive pls. 

I'd like to offer my opinion on this as well, seeing as how some other people in this thread have touched on some things I agree on.

I am of the mindset that:

• Scaling should be more geared toward capping the amount of damage enemies can do to us, rather than removing the cap on damage we can do to enemies.
• Shield-gating,while nice, may not go far enough. There may need to be another implementation such as AI rework or an enemy-batch difficulty adjustment in order to make surviving possible while still progressing the spawn waves to a point where extraction becomes mandatory. 
• Extraction should still be the penultimate goal that tenno move to on any given mission. If we allow certain maps to be played endlessly we risk creating loot caves.

I think that skillful play would be more rewarding if the causes for exploitative/cheese tactics were diminished, and the only thing these tactics tend to congregate around is oneshots, regardless of how tanky a frame is. Shield gating might address this, but IMO I think damage enemies can put out needs to, after a certain peak based on stage level, either decrease or remain static while their armoring increases. 

This is because highly armored enemies will stay in play longer, which gives them more opportunity to do damage. Their longevity alone increases their damage output, so it might be too punishing to players to scale their output as well. 

I think it would be a misstep to package high level survivability into any mod or set of mods, as this will both disrupt current builds and promote build meta over skill. The current Vitality/Redirect/Steel Fiber/Vigor mods should be enough to carry level 100 reasonably far. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by Chamaeleo
Addressing why mods might not work

[Xzorn]

We don't really need scaling offense as a game mechanic. We already get it via Power Creep.

Enemy scaling damage output could simply be addressed instead of adding another mechanic to the game. Reducing the eHP gap between some frames would help. The reason enemy damage output seems unfair to some frames is because our damage output ever increases with each update but only the frames themselves ever get Defense updates.

-What you purpose in scaling player damage output removes the knowledge gap in the game which is as close to a skill gap this game will likely ever get. You don't need meta or cheese to solo lvl 300-400. You simply need knowledge of what works and what doesn't. it's the difference between players who complain about armor scaling and those who know it's easily to red-line a lvl 400+ enemy than burn through their Raw HP. 

[Fallen_Echo]

4 hours ago, P0Pz said:

My bad..jep..sry. was driving while reading/typing. T-.-T

Unless you can multiplicate yourself like an amoebae, i strongly advice you to NOT DO SUCH MADNESS!

 

Back to topic, sure we could create a mod what is limited to 100 kill/ability use.