The BIGGEST issue with the current relic system

[Potato]

 

I am someone who constantly does relic runs. CONSTANTLY. Mostly on excavation. It is absolutely tiring to see that the mission I want to do is never available. Especially after a long day of school, I just want to relax and do a nice solo survival/excavation but I really can't. 

What I feel could be a solution: 

Spoiler

Have each mission type for each relic type. For example: For Axi relics, there are ALWAYS an available Survival, Excavation, Defense, and Extermination mission type. Always available. 

The relic system dramatically reduces the grind for prime parts, and I understand. But the old Tower Key nodes were always readily available in the void. There was no waiting for the mission type to appear and disappear like how it is now. 

 

Any suggestions?

[CrazyCatLad]

Sometimes the choices are too limited. And it is annoying. Bad DEsign.

[shadow0727]

Your not taking into account this is an F2P game. This is very similar to the argument in another thread of continuous crafting. If this were a P2P game, i would fully agree with you, but DE has to take into consideration ways to help bring people back. If DE added everything that everyone complained about not having, this game would completely suck.

What DE did do regarding the relic missions was make it so there is always a mission for each tier ( or they worked towards that. i think on occasion there is a small time frame where 1 tier may be missing)

In a different post, i posted the quote "If it aint broke, dont fix it". This is another one of those situations

Edited June 14, 2017 by shadow0727

[Potato]

5 minutes ago, shadow0727 said:

Your not taking into account this is an F2P game. This is very similar to the argument in another thread of continuous crafting. If this were a P2P game, i would fully agree with you, but DE has to take into consideration ways to help bring people back. If DE added everything that everyone complained about not having, this game would completely suck.

What DE did do regarding the relic missions was make it so there is always a mission for each tier ( or they worked towards that. i think on occasion there is a small time frame where 1 tier may be missing)

In a different post, i posted the quote "If it aint broke, dont fix it". This is another one of those situations

I am fully aware that it is a F2P game and DE needs to make money somehow. But this just isn't it. Before, all you had to do was get a key and you could do the mission endlessly as you desire. Now you have to farm relics, and wait for the mission. It's unnecessary(The waiting part). I can completely understand wanting your players to spend money on the game, but this is the incorrect way to do it. This is nowhere near "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." It's completely broken. You cannot force players to WAIT for a mission type that players obviously want to play. Do you think players care about sabotage missions? Most likely, no. Do you think they care about Capture missions? No. Spy missions? No. These are not fissures the majority of them would not want to play. There is no need to ruthlessly force them to do the missions that they do not want to play, or have them wait. 

 

[(PSN)mmcareen]

I think you should change the title to my biggest issue.  I am not a fan of relic missions at all.  Why?  Collect 10 reactant, sure not a problem... runs over 3, 2 picks up, runs over the 3rd one, again and again and again and FINALLY.  Annoys the hell out of me, might be console issue more then PC, I don't know.  Probably could text because I got a PC account as well.  Other then that, I also hate the break every 5 minutes to pick a relic and reward in survivals.  T3S, T4I, they used to be what I loved the run.  This new endless survival, the pass just takes the momentum out of it.  Kills it for me.  I'd like to see a auto load relics and pick rewards after the mission system, I think I put up a post about it actually or considered doing one and got to lazy to actually do one.  To me, although I agree someone, personally thinking they should always be 2 of each era up, giving better selection of missions to choice from.  I wouldn't call it a big issue.  To each their own though.  I will still give you a 1 up, because?  why not?

[Potato]

1 minute ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

I think you should change the title to my biggest issue.  I am not a fan of relic missions at all.  Why?  Collect 10 reactant, sure not a problem... runs over 3, 2 picks up, runs over the 3rd one, again and again and again and FINALLY.  Annoys the hell out of me, might be console issue more then PC, I don't know.  Probably could text because I got a PC account as well.  Other then that, I also hate the break every 5 minutes to pick a relic and reward in survivals.  T3S, T4I, they used to be what I loved the run.  This new endless survival, the pass just takes the momentum out of it.  Kills it for me.  I'd like to see a auto load relics and pick rewards after the mission system, I think I put up a post about it actually or considered doing one and got to lazy to actually do one.  To me, although I agree someone, personally thinking they should always be 2 of each era up, giving better selection of missions to choice from.  I wouldn't call it a big issue.  To each their own though.  I will still give you a 1 up, because?  why not?

I cannot agree more. I miss the old "go into an endless mission and stay there" without having to worry about reactants, how many relics i have, etc. 

[(PSN)adrian80]

They certainly should increase the possible nodes that are in fissure rotation. It's not great to see the same missions over and over again. One example is the Uranus interception, it's probably the only possible interception mission for Neo relics.

Increase the minimum number of concurrent fissure missions, and the possible nodes, and prime part farming will be more fun for everyone.

[shadow0727]

17 hours ago, Potato said:

I am fully aware that it is a F2P game and DE needs to make money somehow. But this just isn't it. Before, all you had to do was get a key and you could do the mission endlessly as you desire. Now you have to farm relics, and wait for the mission. It's unnecessary(The waiting part). I can completely understand wanting your players to spend money on the game, but this is the incorrect way to do it. This is nowhere near "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." It's completely broken. You cannot force players to WAIT for a mission type that players obviously want to play. Do you think players care about sabotage missions? Most likely, no. Do you think they care about Capture missions? No. Spy missions? No. These are not fissures the majority of them would not want to play. There is no need to ruthlessly force them to do the missions that they do not want to play, or have them wait. 

 

This, along with everything else, comes down to each person's preference. I personally know many people who prefer to run capture missions, or exterminate missions to quick missions for easy ducats, or easy radshares, so while i agree that spy missions suck on fissure missions, to say that no one cares about any mission type except defence, survival or interception is just inaccurate.

For the argument that DE should not be forcing people to wait, its simple. Either run whats available, or farm more relics, or do the sorties, or forma some weapons/frames, or farm for resources. There are soo many options and you are not "forced" to do any of them.

I will say, it would be nice if they would make it a minimum of 2 active missions per tier at any given time, but saying there has to be atleast 1 endless mission at all times for each tier is complaining for the sake of complaining

[NinjaZeku]

1 hour ago, shadow0727 said:

complaining for the sake of a better gameplay experience

FTFY :P

19 hours ago, (PS4)mmcareen said:

Collect 10 reactant, sure not a problem... runs over 3, 2 picks up, runs over the 3rd one, again and again and again and FINALLY.

I know that feel brah, really don't get why Reactant can't have the same "collision detection" or whatever
that regular resources and e.g. Convergence have, needing to stand on each Reactant for at least a second ... urgh.

20 hours ago, Potato said:

Have each mission type for each relic type. For example: For Axi relics, there are ALWAYS an available Survival, Excavation, Defense, and Extermination mission type. Always available. 

FWIW, the reasoning from DE against this was (IIRC) that everyone would just
stick to their favorite type and thus burn themselves out real fast on the game,
"Void fatigue" was kind of a thing back before Relics.

However, to that I say, bah humbug.
We already do the whole repetitive grind thing for Relics, so let us freely pick our Relic cracking mission of choice,
or at the very least, more freely than now, with additionally more variety in missions / tilesets for each Tier
(that dang Uranus map is not just horrible for quick Rounds / Waves, it also gets real fatigue-y real fast, hello irony).

Like, would it be so wrong to e.g. have an (accordingly level-adjusted)
Axi Fissure on Earth or Jupiter for a change? Or a Lith on Eris?
(Screw planetary level averages, it's ... space magic Void radiation, weakening / strengthening the natives. Because why not.)
Also why is HIjack not in the mission type pool? I'd like to have a reason to do one of those a bit more often, heh.

Edited June 15, 2017 by NinjaZeku

[(PSN)mmcareen]

8 minutes ago, NinjaZeku said:

FTFY :P

I know that feel brah, really don't get why Reactant can't have the same "collision detection" or whatever
that regular resources and e.g. Convergence have, needing to stand on each Reactant for at least a second ... urgh.

FWIW, the reasoning from DE against this was (IIRC) that everyone would just
stick to their favorite type and thus burn themselves out real fast on the game,
"Void fatigue" was kind of a thing back before Relics.

However, to that I say, bah humbug.
We already do the whole repetitive grind thing for Relics, so let us freely pick our Relic cracking mission of choice,
or at the very least, more freely than now, with more variety in missions / tilesets for each Tier
(that dang Uranus map is not just horrible for quick Rounds / Waves, it also gets real fatigue-y real fast, hello irony).

Like, would it be so wrong to e.g. have an (accordingly level-adjusted)
Axi Fissure on Earth or Jupiter for a change? Or a Lith on Eris?
(Screw planetary level averages, it's ... space magic Void radiation, weakening / strengthening the natives. Because why not.)
Also why is HIjack not in the mission type pool? I'd like to have a reason to do one of those a bit more often, heh.

Well I know why they added reacted was to stop afkers.  That's fine and dandy with me.  There is zero reason for them not be affected by vacuum though.  In all honesty, I think relics should have a natural draw(vacuum) of reactant.  That way people with pets wouldn't have a issue either.  Reactant disappears the same as other resources so a AFK still needs to run to the end to collect or collect then stop.  Adding a vacuum to it, wouldn't add them, not having it don't stop them, it just annoys the rest of us. 

[DarkFlameZealot]

So you'd want a total of...about 24 missions available at all times to play your relics on and try your luck? First off, having that many nodes with fissures is a bit overkill, and secondly, there's a thing called Void Keys that DE tossed out, which is essentially what you're trying to get them to add back into the game, even stating them in your OP. If anything, you'd be smart to simply wait and stockpile relics until a survival appears and run it with friends considering it's the current best place to farm prime parts alongside affinity, resources and traces for more radianting later on, and in many cases with a decent team you can go for an hour or longer, getting all four 25% boosters active.

 

Fissures are the same system as Kuva, randomized nodes get one around the fortress while fissures spawn wherever the hell they want. It's all rng whether you get your coveted survival, capture, exterminate, etc to farm on, and adding back the old void towers would require a whole revamping of the void again, something I assure you will not happen again. My current issue with relics is the current 'pick your poison' ending to a rotation/mission. Need some forma? Too bad, someone rolled a banshee chassis or vaulted part, so you'll probably regret not getting it later, so it irks me how it works, even if it grants us better chances to get that rare part with 40% instead of randomly trying on Rotation C in old void, but that was actually worth something.

 

Old Void was probably the only reason any of us old players had to keep going in a mission past the 20min mark due to the scarcity of keys and lack of decent players to try to team up and push our limits while getting infinite rewards for the usage of only one key, ONE key. Meanwhile now the issue everyone has is "Waaaaaaa, I'm lagging and can't sprint over every fissure with Ember because the reactant isn't vacuum-able, waaaaaaaaaa". The only way to fix what you'd want is to add a new void sector beyond the current nodes for just tower keys, some sort of lvl 60+ that would be worth the infinite reward usages.

[reehab]

Before, I uses to be in t4 def EVERYDAY whole day doing that single mission alone but know the new system... I hate it really, it really cause me to stop playing the game after a while I just completely stop right after the relic system came in. There was nothing wrong with the old system but I guess if they want to make the game more visually cool by implimenting  that system well ok then, but this system does seem like it helps increase the chances of the good drops at rotation c but meh

[reehab]

5 hours ago, DarkFlameZealot said:

So you'd want a total of...about 24 missions available at all times to play your relics on and try your luck? First off, having that many nodes with fissures is a bit overkill, and secondly, there's a thing called Void Keys that DE tossed out, which is essentially what you're trying to get them to add back into the game, even stating them in your OP. If anything, you'd be smart to simply wait and stockpile relics until a survival appears and run it with friends considering it's the current best place to farm prime parts alongside affinity, resources and traces for more radianting later on, and in many cases with a decent team you can go for an hour or longer, getting all four 25% boosters active.

 

Fissures are the same system as Kuva, randomized nodes get one around the fortress while fissures spawn wherever the hell they want. It's all rng whether you get your coveted survival, capture, exterminate, etc to farm on, and adding back the old void towers would require a whole revamping of the void again, something I assure you will not happen again. My current issue with relics is the current 'pick your poison' ending to a rotation/mission. Need some forma? Too bad, someone rolled a banshee chassis or vaulted part, so you'll probably regret not getting it later, so it irks me how it works, even if it grants us better chances to get that rare part with 40% instead of randomly trying on Rotation C in old void, but that was actually worth something.

 

Old Void was probably the only reason any of us old players had to keep going in a mission past the 20min mark due to the scarcity of keys and lack of decent players to try to team up and push our limits while getting infinite rewards for the usage of only one key, ONE key. Meanwhile now the issue everyone has is "Waaaaaaa, I'm lagging and can't sprint over every fissure with Ember because the reactant isn't vacuum-able, waaaaaaaaaa". The only way to fix what you'd want is to add a new void sector beyond the current nodes for just tower keys, some sort of lvl 60+ that would be worth the infinite reward usages.

Yeah the old void with the scary of keys was the only reason people would try going pace 40 waves theses days I can't find a group like that anymore... Once they hit 20 there there like fuk it a got what I want cause it's 4 of us with the same key as long as one of us get the primed part gtfo this system makes it a lot easier than before.

[DarkFlameZealot]

1 hour ago, reehab said:

Yeah the old void with the scary of keys was the only reason people would try going pace 40 waves theses days I can't find a group like that anymore... Once they hit 20 there there like fuk it a got what I want cause it's 4 of us with the same key as long as one of us get the primed part gtfo this system makes it a lot easier than before.

I have absolutely no clue what you just said lmfao. Proper english and grammar would be useful if you're going to even bother responding to something I say. Something about...loving old void's challenge then saying you hate it at the same time and love this new borked system...? No clue :p

[Somb3rBivalve]

I don't think you necessarily have to have 1 of every mission type on every relic era. Having every mission type available across ALL relic eras would be more reasonable. That would mean that there's a survival/excavation (or whatever you want to play) at all times, but you don't have control over which era it's on, and the same is true for the other game types.

So there would be a good variety of missions available without clogging up the star chart with fissure missions everywhere.

[KnightCole]

The Relic system is annoying in that you gotta farm for the relic, then you gotta hope you get the relic type you want, then you gotta RNG again, hoping you get the piece you want.  The upgrading the relic doesnt seem to do anything at all to the chance of getting the rarer items, so that seems to be a waste of time.

Its RNG on top of RNG on top of more RNG, with a consumable sink if you so choose to run it, along with maybe not getting a mission type you want. 

[Fallen_Echo]

11 hours ago, KnightCole said:

The Relic system is annoying in that you gotta farm for the relic, then you gotta hope you get the relic type you want, then you gotta RNG again, hoping you get the piece you want.  The upgrading the relic doesnt seem to do anything at all to the chance of getting the rarer items, so that seems to be a waste of time.

Its RNG on top of RNG on top of more RNG, with a consumable sink if you so choose to run it, along with maybe not getting a mission type you want. 

Thats because maxing out a relic brings the drop rates of the rarest drop from 2% to 10% while common drops go from 76% to 50% on a radiant one.

Four players with radiant relics have approx 6% chance to get 1 rare drop.

If we could bring up the rare drop chances to atleast 50% then this would be a pretty fair system but currently its worse than the old.

[shadow0727]

37 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Thats because maxing out a relic brings the drop rates of the rarest drop from 2% to 10% while common drops go from 76% to 50% on a radiant one.

Four players with radiant relics have approx 6% chance to get 1 rare drop.

If we could bring up the rare drop chances to atleast 50% then this would be a pretty fair system but currently its worse than the old.

If the drop chances of rare items went to 50% they cant be considered rare items... they are just as common as getting ammo drum at that point. Thats a great way to tank the trading market (which would piss players off and quit based on previous reactions on this forum to decisions that would have or actually have affected the cost of things on the market), everything would be way too attainable (which would only help promote burnout because there is no longer anything worth working for/investing time into).

 

Sometimes what we see as a quick and easy fix for a "problem" has a much deeper effect then we see. This whole thread is all about "lets fix a surface problem that isnt really a problem, without considering the repercussions to any other systems in the game or what it may eventually do to the player base"

[Nirrel]

20 hours ago, NinjaZeku said:

 

FWIW, the reasoning from DE against this was (IIRC) that everyone would just
stick to their favorite type and thus burn themselves out real fast on the game,
"Void fatigue" was kind of a thing back before Relics.

 

Was it? I thought the main problem that caused void fatigue was on the contrary the fact that you had to do the same mission all over again on one specific tileset for the part you needed. So giving the choice on wich mission type to farm would be the ultimate solution for it.

12 hours ago, Somb3rBivalve said:

I don't think you necessarily have to have 1 of every mission type on every relic era. Having every mission type available across ALL relic eras would be more reasonable. That would mean that there's a survival/excavation (or whatever you want to play) at all times, but you don't have control over which era it's on, and the same is true for the other game types.

So there would be a good variety of missions available without clogging up the star chart with fissure missions everywhere.

I don't know. I really see no harm or difficulty on implementing OP's idea to have 1 of each, but I do see many Qol improvements.Fr example : If you are not just randomly farming fissures but you are interested in specific parts it would solve some problems. Like not having time or enough relics to go for endless, but only endless missions are avaible wich leads ppl extracting on the first round. Or if there is only survival/exc they can't even extract, just wait for the others to finish.

[FollowTheFaceless]

The relics themselves are the ISSUE. What they really improved in compare with key system is how Prime Accesses are selling.

[Volinus7]

Prime drop can be as discreet and selective as you want, but it won't happen.

Let's say you can pick one specific prime part you want and system want exactly 30min playtime to give it to you this is the simplest form of drop system no rng involved. Also you can play whenever you want, no prefarm needed.

To present a clear cut of how much time wasted to get specific items is a bad idea in a game like warframe that's why you got rng and group loot table for each key/relic, to conceal unreasonable time sink. You have to wait for specific mission type? That's for systemic controlling to slow down the progression speed of the population collectively. 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Volinus7

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, shadow0727 said:

If the drop chances of rare items went to 50% they cant be considered rare items... they are just as common as getting ammo drum at that point. Thats a great way to tank the trading market (which would piss players off and quit based on previous reactions on this forum to decisions that would have or actually have affected the cost of things on the market), everything would be way too attainable (which would only help promote burnout because there is no longer anything worth working for/investing time into).

 

Sometimes what we see as a quick and easy fix for a "problem" has a much deeper effect then we see. This whole thread is all about "lets fix a surface problem that isnt really a problem, without considering the repercussions to any other systems in the game or what it may eventually do to the player base"

They would still be considered as rare items and while this would make them more easily affordable it would make them more expensive too.

Every level increases the rare drop chances by 2%, to level up a relic you need 100 traces for radiant level.

To make a relic reach 50% rare drop chance it needs 500 traces.

To get that many traces the player needs to get max trace reward atleast 13 times.

Time is the key factor here as it can greatly increase the prices of prime items while at the same time it gives players a better chance to get their needed items.

 

[arimanari]

There's a lot wrong with the current system. I for one cannot fathom why there's a forma reward on Axi relic that isn't even a common drop. Why take a slot as an uncommon drop? How is forma uncommon? I agree we should have all game modes available for each type of relic and play as we please. I will certainly not sit for an hour to find a proper squad that is willing to do a long run with me, so I can do 60 min of Neo, that happened to be Interception. I don't mind soloing for junk parts. And the argument that this game is F2P and we shouldn't have all the things available, is wrong. I buy platinum all the time, I was buying with the old Void-Tower system, and i will continue to do so.. I'm pretty sure there are many people like me. I buy plat only to give boosters to people. I don't have much time to play and when I do, I want to indulge into something I like to do, but to be forced to play mobile defense over and over, and I get it, mobile defense is ezpz but I just hate doing it. Often all there is in the fissures section is 2 types of game modes. I also like doing spy but so many people hate it. Another reason we should be able to pick whatever we want that suits us in every particular moment.

[ikkabotz]

I think Relic system is severely flawed and keys were by far the stronger option. I played with a small clan of six members, the implementation of relics literally wiped out everyone else's interest in the game. Things haven't gotten much better in most aspects of game implementation since then. I get some players really like Relics. My own opinion though Warframe has lost a lot of the fun since their implementation and we're actually being duped by Relics. It deters teaming up. I've just felt a lot of small chipping away and I finally feel now that it has hit a real low point with the addition of frame after frame melting most enemies within seconds and being the main focal point of all development. We have rivens now too, which also melt enemies within seconds. Then in contrast wie have AI that mobs and one shots as they scale. My perspective may not be the most logical one, but from my play experience Warframe was more fun before all the junk in it that started blanketing every experience feeling the same from start to finish. I feel like they've lost the story in the plot over the course of many decisions as of late. People please feel free to add their perspective! I want this game to succeed!!! My own background is coming from being an endless survival player pre-relics being the most fun play experience as the scaling and teamwork felt most synergistic. 

My instant take on the game is there's a lot of junk in it now and the fun of the game is missing its mark. I don't think we necessarily need more this and more that. More features, more menus to navigate. More junk. I think we need to concentrate on the core experience had amongst tenno. Right now it's in a state where we interact very little. One person is trying to kill as much as they can in one corner with massive CC and a heavily riven modded weapon. In the other corner the other is doing the same. We need to get back to playing together in a fun and challenging way and be rewarded for it.

Edited June 18, 2017 by komoriblues

[ikkabotz]

On 6/16/2017 at 6:43 AM, FollowTheFaceless said:

The relics themselves are the ISSUE. What they really improved in compare with key system is how Prime Accesses are selling.

Bingo! I can't see how players supported Relics so much at the time it was proposed.