Umbra warframes [Discussion & Appreciation][*spoilers*]

[trst]

15 hours ago, kuciol said:

Because people look to far into things. Prime frames are not different frames, those are the same warframes but as they were in their prime. Thats all there is to it. There was only 1 Hydroid for example, they were not mass produced. People tend to mix up gameplay things with lore things a lot. In-world we are the only operator awake, in gameplay we are not. In game there are many Mesas, in lore only 1. This is similar to Diablo story where we play as 1 character but lorewise all 4 were fighting as party.

Just from the fact that Dojos and Clans are canon means there's more than one active Operator even if everyone is playing as the same "chosen one". The current event acknowledges multiple frames being operated, Scarlet Spear confirmed there's enough Tenno to operate entire Flotillas combating Sentients, and until(if) Trials get retconned that also confirmed multiple Tenno. 

New War also doesn't break anything as the capability of "other" Tenno is never established other than that one Rhino being dead, the frames Stalker has beheaded, and the Leverian stories assuming they're of Tenno piloted frames and not self sentient ones. So for all we know all the other Tenno died or were forced into hiding. Then there's the Eternalism angle where Ballas throwing us into the Void could have messed with things resulting in a situation in which Tenno didn't exist until we went through the "deal" again.

Also in-game information supersedes out of game info meaning information from Vazaia and the Leverian are more canonical than the old PA description.

 

None of this is looking too far into things. It's just taking the information the game gives us. And the spaces in which information is omitted or just not given leaves room for these later additions to fit just fine.

[kuciol]

Again, the lore is inconsintent AF if you think about it for more than 5 minutes. Its a game, things just dont work out sometimes for gameplay reasons. You bend the evidence to fit certain narrative. You try to justify plot holes.

[Circle_of_Psi]

1 hour ago, kuciol said:

Again, the lore is inconsintent AF if you think about it for more than 5 minutes. Its a game, things just dont work out sometimes for gameplay reasons. You bend the evidence to fit certain narrative. You try to justify plot holes.

Pretty much sums up WF Lore in a nutshell lol

[ElChOrC]

On 2024-07-08 at 11:41 PM, PublikDomain said:

Like the Acolytes? Unless it's confirmed that they have Operators too.

For example, yes. What I mean is that there are several lore tie-ins for more Umbra frames, the Stalker opening several doors. And there doesn't need to be a door for each new Umbra, we can have the one door for all of them. Like this:

On 2024-07-09 at 12:04 PM, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

plenty of viable hypothesis till they appear imo, having some old umbras ready to go would be great imo

ive had a few personal hypothesis on these

 1#

new umbras are made or derived by using whatever altered strain Excalibur Umbra has to infect or change new targets. this could have been done near the end of the old war and similar to Excalibur umbra, they were locked away and we have to find them , free and tame.  or as suggested they already were sent to tau to battle or elsewhere 

 

2#

although given what i recall de stated they had no lore or plans for lore/quests tied to the new line at the time and were discussing implementations 

a viable option i recall suggesting was using eternalism bit and have umbras appear form alternative timelines/realities and we hunt/tame, similar to the "lich" system.

simply use the innate mechanics of hunting and defeating liches and the frame you use makes that umbra , simple .

further detail : use an umbra in helmith (initially Excalibur Umbra) to generate umbra essence/echos? use these at the zariman? which iirc has an onboard void gate on the ship, use the gate to take the resource and  allowing one to summon the kuvalich umbra to our reality using eternalisim void nexus as a means to do so 

though i know making 50+ frames is a big ordeal , so id suggest as it starts do an initial batch of 3 (to choose from) , and add a new set each year expanding the umbra pool

that way players can target and grind for the one(s) they want and its already using innate game mechanics so its not hard to code in 

 

And IIRC, they did go back and forth, at least a couple of times, in regards to new Umbras needing ties to the lore. But in case they want it, a one-time quest opening the content up would be more than enough

 

On 2024-07-09 at 12:11 PM, Anova3 said:

First of all, I love the idea of having frames we can hunt down and tame and capture, and the idea that Excal Umbra's quest is basically just a tutorial on how to do that is neat.

However, we have to be careful here. A large part of DE's profit model is prime access, and anything that would short-circuit primes or make them look inferior is going to be a problem.
They got away with it in Excal's case, strictly because his prime will never be sold again. Umbra isn't competing with OG Excal prime. Umbra Mesa WOULD compete with Mesa prime's sales, however. And that's an issue that would need to get resolved.

This is extremely easy to avoid. #1. Almost every gamer ever is at least partially a nerd, and nerds are collectors by nature, so they won't stop wanting the Prime, just because they want the Umbra. #2. Umbras can be rotated in their own Umbra Access. #3. They can make it that you need the Prime to get the Umbra, if they want, so even if they made Umbras better (Excal Umbra is the same as Prime in numbers, if I'm not mistaken, so that doesn't need to happen), that wouldn't be a detriment for Prime Access. For example, once you unlocked the system to get Umbras, you will get the Umbra version if the Prime frame you are using at any given time, so if you want to get Rhino Umbra, you need to unlock the "Umbra repository" and so some task using Rhino Prime. And if I wanted to think, I could come up with #4, #5, #6 and even more ways to avoid that issue.

Edited July 12 by ElChOrC

[AtsiaZ]

On 2024-07-10 at 2:21 AM, kuciol said:

Again, the lore is inconsintent AF if you think about it for more than 5 minutes. Its a game, things just dont work out sometimes for gameplay reasons. You bend the evidence to fit certain narrative. You try to justify plot holes.

It really isn't. There aren't any plot holes here when the game has never said or even suggested there being 1 Tenno active. Lotus straight up suggests there are other Tenno around straight from the Awakening. The nature of Primes versus the regular models was a question to ask...until DE gave a definitive answer with Varzia. The PA page is just defunct now.

[kuciol]

1 hour ago, AtsiaZ said:

It really isn't. There aren't any plot holes here when the game has never said or even suggested there being 1 Tenno active. Lotus straight up suggests there are other Tenno around straight from the Awakening. The nature of Primes versus the regular models was a question to ask...until DE gave a definitive answer with Varzia. The PA page is just defunct now.

Even in that quest you open 1 pod with singular teno. When Ballas kills us everything goes to sh.it until our double steps in. Vor tries to still our warframe etc. Story is about US, single operator that got attacked by Stalker.

[trst]

On 2024-07-10 at 2:21 AM, kuciol said:

Again, the lore is inconsintent AF if you think about it for more than 5 minutes. Its a game, things just dont work out sometimes for gameplay reasons. You bend the evidence to fit certain narrative. You try to justify plot holes.

It's not. Players who act like it is are the ones ignoring details and are choosing interpretations that create plot holes. Nothing is stopping you from taking the interpretations that're supported by evidence which also lack actual plot holes.

27 minutes ago, kuciol said:

Even in that quest you open 1 pod with singular teno. When Ballas kills us everything goes to sh.it until our double steps in. Vor tries to still our warframe etc. Story is about US, single operator that got attacked by Stalker.

And none of that contradicts anything nor leaves plot holes. Lua was literally the Tenno reservoir and was filled with pods. Nothing says that we've explored the entirety of Lua nor that says others didn't awake from the Dream before or after us.

Also we're playing from the perspective of a "chosen one". Making the player the prime target for characters like Ballas or Stalker as, again, the capability of "other" Tenno isn't established. Again for all we know Ballas tossing the "player" aside resulted in the war being lost due to other Tenno not being capable of defeating them (supported by the random dead Rhino in Kahl's section, the Archon's being built from dead frames, and Stalker's head collection). Or the Eternalism issue possibly messing with things and Ballas' act effectively "deleting" all the Tenno from the system until we went through the act again.

[(XBOX)Omega399]

On 2024-07-08 at 7:36 PM, OniDax said:

DE never originally intended on Umbra Prime to be Umbra for everyone. So, even though they created the hope of more Umbra frames, it's not something I think they really care about doing.

I kinda wish they would at least consider doing one more for Valkyr/Gersemi, but thats mainly because I feel like there's a good story to tell spurring off from their existing lore, and the recent focus on family and loved ones with the past two to three quests. (Also because it could be used as a stealthy way to improve The Sergent's role in the lore too, and I'm realizing I'm definitely a degenerate Umbra x Valkyr shipper)

 

Also because this art is just too good and I wish they'd contract the people responsible to use it as an actual Gersemi Umbra frame:

[OniDax]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Omega399 said:

I kinda wish they would at least consider doing one more for Valkyr/Gersemi, but thats mainly because I feel like there's a good story to tell spurring off from their existing lore, and the recent focus on family and loved ones with the past two to three quests. (Also because it could be used as a stealthy way to improve The Sergent's role in the lore too, and I'm realizing I'm definitely a degenerate Umbra x Valkyr shipper)

 

Also because this art is just too good and I wish they'd contract the people responsible to use it as an actual Gersemi Umbra frame:

I want Ash Umbra, Frost Umbra, and Nyx Umbra.

[kuciol]

14 hours ago, trst said:

It's not. Players who act like it is are the ones ignoring details and are choosing interpretations that create plot holes. Nothing is stopping you from taking the interpretations that're supported by evidence which also lack actual plot holes.

And none of that contradicts anything nor leaves plot holes. Lua was literally the Tenno reservoir and was filled with pods. Nothing says that we've explored the entirety of Lua nor that says others didn't awake from the Dream before or after us.

Also we're playing from the perspective of a "chosen one". Making the player the prime target for characters like Ballas or Stalker as, again, the capability of "other" Tenno isn't established. Again for all we know Ballas tossing the "player" aside resulted in the war being lost due to other Tenno not being capable of defeating them (supported by the random dead Rhino in Kahl's section, the Archon's being built from dead frames, and Stalker's head collection). Or the Eternalism issue possibly messing with things and Ballas' act effectively "deleting" all the Tenno from the system until we went through the act again.

As i said before, those frames could come from times of old war. Everything you said here is just your headcanon and speculations, nothing more. Im not arguing that there are no other tenno, im arguning we are the only one awake. Thats what was shown, thats how the story progresses. All this "this could be this or that", "for what we know" etc is just pure speculations and excuses. Until DE shows us otherwise it will remain as such. There could have been many reasons why story played out as it did but it was not said or even implied. 

Edited July 15 by kuciol

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

On 2024-07-09 at 10:29 AM, Mardana said:

I do wish putting in Umbra forma and it gives your Warframe Umbra accessories or armor bits as addition.

 

Maybe as bonus, they become Sentient just like Excalibur Umbra.

initially de had a concept called echos of umbra (very grindy) 

Spoiler

it was such that you had to go to lua , get rare resource (low drop) add x number iirc 10? , then apply to make a item, item is 1 time use and applied sentience for 24hrs 

(not permanent)

 community voiced it was bad and it got shelved years ago 

the initial statement per sheldon was devstream 125 , saying more umbras were coming and that got on off talked in blips down the dev streams in various quick chats of no plans or ideas how to do it yet

 eventually pablo said they didnt have plans to do 50 x frames currently , and some other stuff like reworks, then he immediately retcon that and did all the other stuff he said they didnt have time for (like reworks lol) besides umbras at that time. 

its simply just not in the stage of implementing and adding to the games current story path so it will come when they find a add in point i think

[trst]

5 hours ago, kuciol said:

As i said before, those frames could come from times of old war. Everything you said here is just your headcanon and speculations, nothing more. Im not arguing that there are no other tenno, im arguning we are the only one awake. Thats what was shown, thats how the story progresses. All this "this could be this or that", "for what we know" etc is just pure speculations and excuses. Until DE shows us otherwise it will remain as such. There could have been many reasons why story played out as it did but it was not said or even implied. 

DE has shown and told us otherwise with events and dialogue. But if you want to just arbitrarily throw out details and fabricate your own made up canon then enjoy. Just don't pretend like you actually know or care about the lore.

[(XBOX)Omega399]

8 hours ago, (XBOX)EternalDrk Mako said:

initially de had a concept called echos of umbra (very grindy) 

  Reveal hidden contents

it was such that you had to go to lua , get rare resource (low drop) add x number iirc 10? , then apply to make a item, item is 1 time use and applied sentience for 24hrs 

(not permanent)

 community voiced it was bad and it got shelved years ago 

 

What I don't understand is why it had to be some sort of a consumable, when it would make more sense as an aura, especially given it sounds like they weren't going that Lich direction as was suggested earlier in this thread.

[kuciol]

17 hours ago, trst said:

DE has shown and told us otherwise with events and dialogue. But if you want to just arbitrarily throw out details and fabricate your own made up canon then enjoy. Just don't pretend like you actually know or care about the lore.

Thats why i say, its inconsistent AF. How many pods did you open in second dream? How many tenno did Stalker ask for help in Jade Shadows? How many Tenno made a deal with indifference? The lore is messed up for gameplay reasons. None of those problems would matter if WF was a single player game. Thats where all the problems with lore and story begin and end. Its the reverse diablo situation, there we played as 1 character but all of them helped, here we play as many tenno but only 1 is in the story. Events are the gameplay part that is irrelevant in the bigger picture, thats where players like you mix up gameplay with story.

Edited July 16 by kuciol

[trst]

6 hours ago, kuciol said:

Thats why i say, its inconsistent AF. How many pods did you open in second dream? How many tenno did Stalker ask for help in Jade Shadows? How many Tenno made a deal with indifference? The lore is messed up for gameplay reasons. None of those problems would matter if WF was a single player game. Thats where all the problems with lore and story begin and end. Its the reverse diablo situation, there we played as 1 character but all of them helped, here we play as many tenno but only 1 is in the story. Events are the gameplay part that is irrelevant in the bigger picture, thats where players like you mix up gameplay with story.

More aren't brought up in the "main" storyline but they are acknowledged in many side stories. Again other Tenno have been acknowledged in events and in (mainly boss) dialogue. Other Tenno existing outside of the main story doesn't mess up anything when the rest of the story already tells you that they do exist in lore.

You're assigning more weight to the main quest line and acting like that invalidates the entire rest of the story. Just because the main quests are focused on the "player" doesn't mean others don't exist.

[kuciol]

3 hours ago, trst said:

More aren't brought up in the "main" storyline but they are acknowledged in many side stories. Again other Tenno have been acknowledged in events and in (mainly boss) dialogue. Other Tenno existing outside of the main story doesn't mess up anything when the rest of the story already tells you that they do exist in lore.

You're assigning more weight to the main quest line and acting like that invalidates the entire rest of the story. Just because the main quests are focused on the "player" doesn't mean others don't exist.

Dude i know other tenno exist. Do you even read what i say? For the last time, yes there are other tenno but only our character awakened from second dream. Thats what was directly shown in quest. The events are not consistent with the main story. Thats my entire point. There are more plotholes. Like in second dream hunhow implies that Stalker is tenno, he has an operator but Jade Shadows retcons this. Thats not the hill you want to die on.

[(XBOX)Omega399]

On 2024-07-14 at 11:42 PM, OniDax said:

I want Ash Umbra, Frost Umbra, and Nyx Umbra.

Aye, I actually did consider Nyx to be another reasonable choice for an Umbra given her direct connection to Dark Sector and Excalibur's real world development, as well as the fact her Prime is supposedly unvaulted permanently alongside Valkyr's, but I also kinda worry she'd just end up being a bit too similar to Excal Umbra once everything was said and done.

 

An Ash Umbra on the other hand is not something I'd really considered before now. I still prefer Valkyr/Gersemi, but an Ash Umbra could be used to explore more of Ash's lore from the Leverian, and it would be extra interesting if they resurrected the female Concept Ash/Smoke as a basis for their Umbral Frame;

Though that would likely mean they'd be treated a bit more like a separate frame than the original Ash (i/e no Fashion Frame using existing skins/helmets), while still being a duplicate of an existing frame.

 

(Also dunno why I got the notification response days later, but I genuinely do love discussing the ideas that come from other Umbra's)

Edited July 19 by (XBOX)Omega399