[U21 Megathread] New Warframe: Harrow

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, jragonsoul said:

The issue is no other supports have to say "Hey, Mr/Mrs DPS frame, please stop killing stuff so I can support you, pwease!"

But in a game where we all are ninja robots and we all can have the same guns, is it reasonable for our damage frames to stop and say "Hey support, stop killing things, it needs to be me who kills everything for some reason"? No support in Warframe is forbidden from getting kills, and if you as Harrow can't get even a few kills* before your allies nuke the map, either you suck at Harrow or your squad is too overpowered for the mission and it wouldn't matter which frame you play. Think about it: if damage frames ult and destroy everything in a few seconds, and can do this constantly throughout the entire mission, do they really need help from a squadmate?

Harrow is an offensive support, but if the team is instakilling everything already his aid is ineffective. Oberon has multiple tools to protect the team, but if the team barely gets hurt he's not effective either. If allies kill everything, Chroma can't ramp up his Vex Armor buffs and he's ineffective, too.

*EDIT: And yes, just a few kills will do. Ramp up 15 Energy on Thurible. Pick off 2 enemies with headshots, just 2, and that's 120 Energy for everyone. Spray a magazine down a hallway at head height and you're bound to make the squad happy with your help. It is not hard unless you find getting headshots hard. In which case, Harrow is a great learning tool.

Edited July 8, 2017 by SenorClipClop

[SteelSoldier]

 If Harrow is meant to be an offensive support, then why are offensive teamplay tactics not promoted? The way I see him, he is supposed to act like a general commanding the battle, he is supposed to have other people kill too, there should be benefits for other people aiding him in killing foes, that does not promote passive gameplay, that promotes gameplay because people know when Harrow is there, they are supposed to kill, kill and kill when his Thurible is on, it causes people to change their strategy in order to make the most out Harrow's abilities.

 By not allowing Harrow's Thurible to also get bonuses from other players kills, it prevents him from being what he is supposed to be, a frame that oversees and dictates how the fight will go.

[Bobtm]

1 hour ago, SteelSoldier said:

The way I see him, he is supposed to act like a general commanding the battle

You're looking at him wrong.

Harrow is not a general, he's a vanguard.  A frontline soldier that is both aggressive and active, and capable of being the spearhead of a fight.  He just so happens to be capable of supporting both himself and his allies whilst doing this task.

There's a specific reason as to why Harrow's 2 does not buff his allies.  This helps cement his role as a primary attacker in terms of playstyle.  You will be firing weapons faster than your allies.  You will be reloading weapons faster than your allies.  Harrow combines the gameplay mechanics of a striker with the effect output of a support.  And he does so without being either bland or brokenly overpowered.

[SteelSoldier]

1 hour ago, Bobtm said:

Harrow is not a general, he's a vanguard.  A frontline soldier that is both aggressive and active, and capable of being the spearhead of a fight.  He just so happens to be capable of supporting both himself and his allies whilst doing this task.

 

I will keep this in mind, I am just unsure if Harrow should be classified as a support, that does seem to be his secondary role though but not the first one, his primary role is to kill, second to support

[Borg1611]

I think most Thurible criticism is looking at the wrong end of the spectrum. It's not bad because of low-end content where everything is being one shot too fast. I get a lot of kills on supports (even Trinity) if I bring a good weapon. If they're all being killed offscreen it doesn't matter anyway. The potential problem I see with it that not many people seem to be talking about is if you take him into content where you're not getting many kills because there's not as much to kill such as on a sortie assassination of a boss with limited trash mobs (particularly those bosses with a lot of health or mechanics that make them take longer to kill). Or if you take him into a high enough endless or eximus stronghold sortie or something with mobs that actually aren't just all being one shot (outside of something like sleep + covert lethality cheese or whatever). In those situations the effectiveness of his energy restoration would drop off dramatically I would expect.

It's because of the difficult end of the spectrum that it should be able to restore some amount of energy on hit rather than just on kills. Although at that end of the spectrum he may just be too squishy to bother taking anyway if he's getting one shot outside of Covenant invulnerability. Overshields without DR only go so far. In the actually difficult sortie assassinations (IE: Raptor, assuming they haven't nerfed it, I wasn't playing for awhile) I wouldn't even bring a negative duration Trinity (who can't take advantage of either of her DR abilities when they only last 1 second) because you'd need link and blessing DR to survive the damage. Perhaps they could also consider adding some kind of DR element to his passive or something if he is too squishy in high level content (IE: while your shields are active, gain X% damage reduction, or they could just add a DR buff of some kind to retaliation or penance). 

[RICK_BO]

Harrow has the look of a priest, but feels more like a crusader. Was doing a few mid-length survivals and with a pretty level build I found the best strategy for me was hopping in front of a crowd, Covenant[4]>Thurible[3] (while invulnerable) and while taking all sorts of hits boosting that crit to stop charging thurible right as the invuln ended and throwing a wave or two of condemn[1] to buff shields and immobilize while inefficiently channeling a crit melee. run all those -efficiency channeling mods; Harrow is a melee fighter.

The pouring in of energy (that my teammates just happen to get) let me channel through bombards with ease. if I (or those teammates) started taking damage a quick [4][1][2][1] at a crowd solved that. I can only imagine how far I could go with my combo/crit metatterax.

[jragonsoul]

17 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

But in a game where we all are ninja robots and we all can have the same guns, is it reasonable for our damage frames to stop and say "Hey support, stop killing things, it needs to be me who kills everything for some reason"? No support in Warframe is forbidden from getting kills, and if you as Harrow can't get even a few kills* before your allies nuke the map, either you suck at Harrow or your squad is too overpowered for the mission and it wouldn't matter which frame you play. Think about it: if damage frames ult and destroy everything in a few seconds, and can do this constantly throughout the entire mission, do they really need help from a squadmate?

Harrow is an offensive support, but if the team is instakilling everything already his aid is ineffective. Oberon has multiple tools to protect the team, but if the team barely gets hurt he's not effective either. If allies kill everything, Chroma can't ramp up his Vex Armor buffs and he's ineffective, too.

*EDIT: And yes, just a few kills will do. Ramp up 15 Energy on Thurible. Pick off 2 enemies with headshots, just 2, and that's 120 Energy for everyone. Spray a magazine down a hallway at head height and you're bound to make the squad happy with your help. It is not hard unless you find getting headshots hard. In which case, Harrow is a great learning tool.

No one is ASKING Harrow not to kill things. Literally no one has to (Unless it's another Harrow) because in general support and most other WF abilites don't require you to need to be the one doing damage/killing. If this was just a weapons based game I would agree btu considering abilities can put out insame damage in a hug radius or range that's a moot point. I'm not saying only allies should triggger and get his buff. I am saying his allies should ALSO be able to trigger and get his buff. It would literally only make him a BETTER frame. I ran a Sorties earlier as Mesa (Zero forma), we had 2 Harrow's and their damage added up to 8% between them both on average and topping at 13%. Not on any mission did my damage drop below 76%. If I was able to trigger the buffs it would have helped the entire team but because the Harrow's got few kills and did little damage there was no benefit to the team. Before you say there then was "No need for Harrow" people died in the last mission a few times, the health from my damage could have certainly prevented that, Now, Mesa is a more DPS heavy frame example but she is far from the only high DPS example. I get prople don't want Harrow to be passive, but it wouldn't make him passive.

Oberon can rad proc enemies, add armor and give frame HP regen. So the little damage they take is mitigated by the regen and reduced by the armor. If no one ever takes damage he can still rad proc several enemies,

The point on Chroma is more accurate. Chroma can buff the team (depending on color), and do massive damage if needed. I don't see many Chroma's in game usually, but that's probably because the need to take damage in a game were killing or CCing stuff before you take damage is the norm.

[The_Grimmrock]

Dropping this here as well as on the subreddit following a kuva flood where I wasn't able to play my frame because others were playing the game. 

Related to thurible:

Why must it be both the best and worst support energy restore?

Playing with most frames means that I bounce out of energy before I can even cast my 4, or my 2. You go to cast Thurible, think oh, I only need like 5 headshots to cover myself and help out the team: result: you get nothing for your trouble because Excaliber just wiped the hallway, map and everything in front of you like a happy go lucky hedge trimmer.

Banshee: Quakes and you're useless

Saryn: spore nukes

Nova: Molec Prime

Octavia: Octavia

Limbo: LoL

Ember: Worlds on fire yo <fire quake too>

Mirage: what map

Mesa: You know what I'm talking about.

Frames that have primaries that go pew, boom or thwak <which is what I think a bow sounds like>

the list goes on. 

Namely these popular, go to frames that you see in almost every mission? prevent me, Harrow, from playing the game because unless I'm lucky and a EV trin <which is hilarious by the way, because the support needs a support to support> I'm not going to have the energy to CC with my 1, buff myself and heal my teammates with my 2, or even stop incoming damage and give free crits to people < which is another story because people seem to forget that damage has to go in for crits to come out>.

This is all because thurible is not a "lets play nice skill" its selfish. Which would be fine in a perfect world where people think having energy is nice, but doesn't work out so well when captain nuke frame demolishes a map and you're sitting there with your gun up your &amp;#&#33; wondering where you're going to find energy.

It needs to be a quarter of the effect on allies. period. you charge it up to ten? friend nukes the map? you get 2.5 per enemy killed. I don't even care if it gave it to team mates or not, because then I wouldn't feel cucked every time I charge the thurible only to get no energy back to keep my cool TEAM SUPPORT buffs up.

I cant do my job as a support if everyone else plays the game, and this needs to be addressed.

now, in the interest of fairness, lets give this a good olde fashioned Forum try:

Thurible: Harrow charges his thurible with energy over time, gaining more energy per kill <4x for headshots> the longer he charges.

Proposed Change

If, while in thuribles effective range, an ally kills an enemy, Harrow receives 1/4th his charged value <4x> for head shots.

teamates do not benefit from this energy restore unless harrow gets the kill/head shot.

Boom, Harrow doesn't get screwed if his team mates don't play nice. All of a sudden he isn't reverse limbo.

Edited July 9, 2017 by The_Grimmrock
Typo

[Bobtm]

14 hours ago, jragonsoul said:

I ran a Sorties earlier as Mesa (Zero forma), we had 2 Harrow's and their damage added up to 8% between them both on average and topping at 13%. Not on any mission did my damage drop below 76%. If I was able to trigger the buffs it would have helped the entire team but because the Harrow's got few kills and did little damage there was no benefit to the team. Before you say there then was "No need for Harrow" people died in the last mission a few times, the health from my damage could have certainly prevented that, Now, Mesa is a more DPS heavy frame example but she is far from the only high DPS example. I get prople don't want Harrow to be passive, but it wouldn't make him passive.

That just means that those players were either using a poor loadout for Harrow, or they were not good shots.  I did the Sorties as Harrow and was able to consistently land headshots and kills (restoring 22.5 energy per kill, or 90 energy per headshot in the Energy Reduced Defense mission).  Between my attacking and the Mesa who was constantly able to be refueled and the health being restored, the mission went by without a hitch and no players or even the defense guy dying.

If you were using Mesa's 4, your Harrow allies should have been able to make note of your location and find foes that were out of your LoS to kill by using a basic sense of spatial awareness.

All these folks are asserting that making Harrow's 2 and 3 being changed to work with all players' damage and kills respectively won't make him passive.  Yet that is precisely and solely the only thing that the proposed change does.  It's literally giving him the option to turn on 2 and 3 then take a nap while the whole squad has infinite energy forever and very high lifesteal on all guns and all melee.

_______________________________

To everyone having issues keeping up with killing foes;  What weapons are you using with Harrow?  What level range of enemy are you experiencing issues with in terms of "having every enemy auto-nuked before I get there"?

To answer those myself;  I use weapons with very high damage per shot with Harrow, many different sniper rifles, the Tenora with its alt-fire a few times, as well as some Zenith shenanigans while I keep trying to roll a riven for it that does not have +Punch Through.  In secondary I've practically glued the Euphona Prime to my hand, but Lex/Aklex Prime also have outstanding synergy with Harrow.

As far as all the public mission goofiness around, the only times where I wasn't able to net appropriate kills for Thurible's viability was (yay randoms) paired with 3 Embers on a low-ish level (25/30) alert run.  And during a Defense Sortie melee only where I chose to run with the Sarpa, and ran into a max range Cata/Stasis Limbo.

For the Ember/other nuke situation; Even in that mission or other potentially like runs, I'm not put in some situation where my abilities don't work anyways.  Harrow can still collect energy orbs just like any other frame, so due to their involvement I simply skipped usage of Thurible and ramped Penance up.

For the Limbo situation;  Limbo is just pure unadulterated garbage and needs to be changed anyways.  I quit the run and re-qued and got a different team and all was well.

[SenorClipClop]

9 hours ago, The_Grimmrock said:

captain nuke frame demolishes a map and you're sitting there with your gun up your &amp;#&#33; wondering where you're going to find energy.

 

9 hours ago, The_Grimmrock said:

I cant do my job as a support if everyone else plays the game, and this needs to be addressed.

This is the problem that's run into when playing any Warframe that aims to be supportive, not just Harrow. But by "plays the game", the problems happen when the squad is completely rolling the mission without effort. In cases like this, nobody needs help from any kind of support, be it Harrow or Oberon or Nezha, or even Trinity. The only difference is that the latter three still get to chuck out all their abilities in full no matter what, so it's easier for those supports not to notice that their efforts are meaningless to an overpowered team. If your team is one-shotting everything immediately, you could be any frame and still not get your job done. Harrow just makes players more aware of this fact.

The fix? Play harder missions, get up on the front line yourself, and/or play Harrow like a mid-range gunslinger instead of a traditional support.

[-Temp0-]

On 08.07.2017 at 1:53 PM, SenorClipClop said:

But in a game where we all are ninja robots and we all can have the same guns, is it reasonable for our damage frames to stop and say "Hey support, stop killing things, it needs to be me who kills everything for some reason"? No support in Warframe is forbidden from getting kills

You're not 'forbidden'. You simply can't compete as support with dps frames. No matter what you do they will kill more if they're not afk or actually using their warframes.

And yes it's stupid af that allies don't even get some % of those buffs by killing.   

Quote

If allies kill everything, Chroma can't ramp up his Vex Armor buffs and he's ineffective, too.

That's why no one runs Chroma in groups. Well that's fine with Chroma but for a freaking 'support'? That's some sick joke.

Quote

This is the problem that's run into when playing any Warframe that aims to be supportive, not just Harrow.

No now it's mostly Harrow. Trinity doesn't give a demn about teammates killing anything, Oberon is just that useless and once again his buffs don't rely on him scoring kills. You even get the energy from a dying enemy (Trinity) upon the kill, allies don't help her and don't prevent from supporting them.

Edited July 9, 2017 by -Temp0-

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, -Temp0- said:

Trinity doesn't give a demn about teammates killing anything, Oberon is just that useless and once again his buffs don't rely on him scoring kills.

 

7 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

The latter three (Oberon, Nezha and Trin) still get to chuck out all their abilities in full no matter what, so it's easier for those supports not to notice that their efforts are meaningless to an overpowered team. If your team is one-shotting everything immediately, you could be any frame and still not get your job done. Harrow just makes players more aware of this fact.

 

[DreamsmithJane]

Earlier, I was in a mission where I (as Harrow) got 10% of total damage dealt with my Tenora, because we had a Maim Equinox running in circles and a Nova priming everything. Nobody died. Nobody ran out of energy. I kept my buffs up and my own energy full the whole time, with headshots restoring up to 200 energy. And in harder missions, Harrow does excellent DPS due to his crit and fire rate bonuses. All this talk about Harrow being useless when other frames do more killing than him...no. Do better. Get on the front lines and make something happen.

And yes, letting the rest of the team trigger his buffs would turn him passive. That 10% would turn to 0% really quickly, because he wouldn't have to do anything.

[jragonsoul]

13 hours ago, Bobtm said:

If you were using Mesa's 4, your Harrow allies should have been able to make note of your location and find foes that were out of your LoS to kill by using a basic sense of spatial awareness.

All these folks are asserting that making Harrow's 2 and 3 being changed to work with all players' damage and kills respectively won't make him passive.  Yet that is precisely and solely the only thing that the proposed change does.  It's literally giving him the option to turn on 2 and 3 then take a nap while the whole squad has infinite energy forever and very high lifesteal on all guns and all melee.

 

2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

 

And yes, letting the rest of the team trigger his buffs would turn him passive. That 10% would turn to 0% really quickly, because he wouldn't have to do anything.

What I don't understand, is how people say letting his allies help with his 2 and 3 will "Turn him passive". HOW?! He still has to cast and he still has to move with the team. He still needs to be playing the game for the team to benefit from anything. This only means he doesn't have to be the main one killing really be effective. Though you still get to play the frame your way.

Also Bobtm I run my Mesa, probably at least a little, differently than most people. I hit my 4 at the start of a bullet jump, do a 360 spin kill everything and move on. I rarely stay in my 4 without SOME kind of momentum carrying me. So I am very agile and able to move with the team even during an exterminate. If your Mesa is just a turret Mesa then what you proposed would work fine, but I am anything but "just a turret Mesa."

Edited July 10, 2017 by jragonsoul

[SenorClipClop]

12 minutes ago, jragonsoul said:

"Turn him passive". HOW?! He still has to cast and he still has to move with the team.

This is incredibly passive in comparison to what he's designed for: Harrow rewards the player (and the team) for getting in the fight and proving himself in combat. Walking and pressing buttons to restore the team is already a role filled by Trinity.

[-Temp0-]

4 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

The latter three (Oberon, Nezha and Trin) still get to chuck out all their abilities in full no matter what, so it's easier for those supports not to notice that their efforts are meaningless to an overpowered team. If your team is one-shotting everything immediately, you could be any frame and still not get your job done. Harrow just makes players more aware of this fact.

Again trinity doesn't care (neither does Oberon as well)

You only need your own energy for blessing which you can get by any means and for energy vampire you only need to 'tag' the enemy, once you did that it does not matter who killed him and if it's killed at all and how fast - which is useful in many situations including her own hybrid build where she doesn't have to sacrifice duration for decent ev. That's why Trinity can be used even with the farming groups of all kinds and in all kinds of missions. No other 'support' frame been centered around killing everything themselves.

[SenorClipClop]

13 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

No other 'support' frame been centered around killing everything themselves.

You're overestimating how much Harrow needs to kill in order to replenish Energy effectively. Two or three headshot kills per minute is plenty to keep everyone happily topped off on Energy. If a player can't get just two headshot kills (or eight bodyshot kills) in a minute, that player needs to get better at aiming, and/or

11 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

the squad is completely rolling the mission without effort. In cases like this, nobody needs help from any kind of support

 

[jragonsoul]

8 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

This is incredibly passive in comparison to what he's designed for: Harrow rewards the player (and the team) for getting in the fight and proving himself in combat. Walking and pressing buttons to restore the team is already a role filled by Trinity.

Nah mate, you need the whole quote for this to be effective. Second he already is way more active than Trinity even with the change most of the that most of the people are asking for. You still are active as noted below.

8 hours ago, jragonsoul said:

What I don't understand, is how people say letting his allies help with his 2 and 3 will "Turn him passive". HOW?! He still has to cast and he still has to move with the team. He still needs to be playing the game for the team to benefit from anything. This only means he doesn't have to be the main one killing really be effective. Though you still get to play the frame your way.

You don't seem to understand you still get to play the frame YOUR way, this is not an insult BTW just an observation. You just aren't forcing everyone who likes the frame to play your way. Question is why do you want to make people play your way? WF seems to be a game about choice. From the weapons you can use to the builds on your WF's to augments, even how you plane your WF's, and so on and so forth. Making people who play harrow need to play your way seems a little like shoehorning him into a role where sure he benefits the team, if you can get kills and do damage, but if you can't ever for just part of the mission everything is still able to benefit.

[Gurpgork]

4 hours ago, jragonsoul said:

You don't seem to understand you still get to play the frame YOUR way, this is not an insult BTW just an observation. You just aren't forcing everyone who likes the frame to play your way. Question is why do you want to make people play your way? WF seems to be a game about choice. From the weapons you can use to the builds on your WF's to augments, even how you plane your WF's, and so on and so forth. Making people who play harrow need to play your way seems a little like shoehorning him into a role where sure he benefits the team, if you can get kills and do damage, but if you can't ever for just part of the mission everything is still able to benefit.

The role he's "shoehorned" into calls for him engaging enemies, which... Isn't that something that every Warframe player should be actively trying to do anyway? 

I mean, yes, he has to get kills and do damage to be an effective support, but that's more or less the point of the game in the first place. It's not like Harrow's kit shoehorns a really bizarre, niche playstyle, like, I dunno, forcing you to crouch and jump rhythmically to get bonuses [Glares at Octavia]. The only thing that Harrow forces you to do is fight in a game about fighting. I don't really see how that's a problem.

We already have plenty of Warframes that support by just being in the mission and casting abilities. Harrow offers a new playstyle that the game hasn't had before; the playstyle of the aggressive support. It's not like there aren't alternative support Warframes for people who don't like the way that Harrow plays. In fact, Harrow is specifically in the game to be an alternative for people who don't like how those other support Warframes play. Why deprive those people of this new playstyle?

[DreamsmithJane]

3 hours ago, jragonsoul said:

Nah mate, you need the whole quote for this to be effective. Second he already is way more active than Trinity even with the change most of the that most of the people are asking for. You still are active as noted below.

You don't seem to understand you still get to play the frame YOUR way, this is not an insult BTW just an observation. You just aren't forcing everyone who likes the frame to play your way. Question is why do you want to make people play your way? WF seems to be a game about choice. From the weapons you can use to the builds on your WF's to augments, even how you plane your WF's, and so on and so forth. Making people who play harrow need to play your way seems a little like shoehorning him into a role where sure he benefits the team, if you can get kills and do damage, but if you can't ever for just part of the mission everything is still able to benefit.

No, the whole quote didn't change anything. Walking (/bullet jumping, et cetera) with the team and pressing a button when a timer gets low is an incredibly passive way of playing. Using Condemn would be less passive, but that wasn't really mentioned. More importantly, the way of playing you apparently don't like is the way the frame was designed to work in the first place, and at no point in time since Harrow was released has he been required to "be the main one killing", ever. He just has to be killing at all.

Now, I want you to read your last sentence here one more time. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you literally just requested that, if you can't perform and play your part, you still get to fulfill your role just by showing up. That's not how this works. That's not how anything works.

To me, this is all like saying you want heat damage and then bringing Frost and getting mad that he uses cold. And then participating in a forum campaign to give Frost the ability to choose his damage type, because you don't want to play Ember or Chroma. It's absurd. No one is making you play a certain way. Seriously, if you want to restore health and energy to the team without relying on your ability to shoot things, then use the right tool for the job. Play Trinity, not Harrow. Of course, in another thread, we had someone ready to explode in anger at that suggestion, because Trinity is female. I guess there is something to be said for wanting to connect with the characters you play, but I don't think we need a slightly better (CC, fire rate, crit), male Trinity. That wouldn't be good for the game.

Here's the thing. Trinity is the team's rock. She gets to be there, in the thick of things, almost no matter what. She keeps herself alive, and as long as she stands, so does the team. Harrow is a fighter. He supports by putting himself on the line. While Trinity is the team's last line of defense, Harrow is the first. He is on the front lines, risking his power and his survival on the premise that as long as he keeps fighting, everyone else can, too. This is Rell's legacy. That's why he gets the crowd control and weapon buffs that Trinity doesn't. Trinity has to stand, no matter what's thrown at her. Harrow has to fight, no matter what's in his way.

So, if you're not the front line type, or you want to "move with the team" rather than lead the charge, or you're just having a slow day, maybe Harrow is not for you.

[Kurambik]

On 7/6/2017 at 1:42 AM, DreamsmithJane said:

Requiring Harrow to kill prevents him from being lazy and claiming that just showing up and recasting his buffs when they expire is contributing.

Perhaps more importantly, Harrow doesn't have easy access to nukes and unconditional damage amplification, so he has to plan and execute his kills skillfully, and that is the thing that gates his power. Just look at what happens in low to medium level missions when he brings a syndicate weapon. You can do a full channel of Thurible, and instantly regain all of your energy when a Sequence burst from your Lanka goes off. Alternatively, play Harrow with Nova, and watch your HUD bloom with healing and energy. Now imagine if better damage frames could do that just because Harrow was in the squad, and not because anyone did something particularly clever or skillful.

When in high levels he's lazy anyway because other players steal his kills. What I meant (apologies if I was not clear, I thought it was implied) was energy from weapon kills and have Harrow's health/energy restores be the most effective when compared to energy due to health/energy "harvested" by the other members of the squad. For example if Harrow heals his team for 100 health, the same amount of damage by another player would heal that other player by 50 and the rest of the squad by 25. In turn this incentivises the entire squad to ramp up their kill rate including Harrow since his contribution is more significant.

[Azimbee]

Harrow isn't perfect, but he really doesn't need to be.The logic SenorClipClop promotes is pretty sound. If your teammates are nuking the maps they don't need you or anyone else whether you're Harrow or not. This is not a problem with Harrow. At what point is Harrow not being able to support level 4 missions with an Ember walking around Harrow's fault? Implying the only other option is Harrow doing all the work is false as well.

There will exist missions where you're not needed, and there will exist missions where you do all the work. But these extremes are not the only cases and it becomes increasingly apparent that Harrow is very good as enemy levels increase and they stick around for much longer, thus forcing everyone to pull their weight.

Harrow scales way better into higher levels than any other Warframe I've seen, bar maybe Nidus and Octavia. When everyone is struggling to get kills, Harrow shines. He lets the entire team scale into mid to late game better, and at that point, everyone is pulling relatively equal amounts of their weight, including Harrow. This is true even for the most uncoordinated, un-synergistic team compositions, and even when the chosen warframes are inappropriate for the mission.

Thurible is not the focus of Harrow. It clearly wasn't intended for Harrow to be Alternative-Trinity. Analyze his entire kit. Labelling him "Support", "Offense", or "InsertClass" doesn't justify focusing on just one aspect of his kit. Looking at the entirety of his kit, it works really well. If your team doesn't need Energy then give them crowd control. If your team doesn't need CC give them Healing. If all else fails, Covenant is incredibly powerful and one of a kind. We've survived without Thurible before and you can play Harrow without it, just like every Warframe before. This goes for all of Harrow's Abilities.

His entire kit, mechanics, and several different playstyles (both for gunplay and melee builds) are incredibly powerful and scale really well.

Edited July 11, 2017 by TheLegendTamer

[AshenHaze]

Thank you for Best Frame since Loki.

New main now.

[AshenHaze]

On 7/7/2017 at 11:50 PM, jragonsoul said:

The issue is no other supports have to say "Hey, Mr/Mrs DPS frame, please stop killing stuff so I can support you, pwease!"

I don't think it's that difficult to carry around some extra ammo/energy pizzas if your teammates are already at that level. There is more than one way to effectively 'support' if you liking being a force multiplier. I, for one, always carry extra energy/ammo pizzas and Ancient Healer specters. If the folk that made the shield specters didn't hate my guts I'd have those too (but I like the Red Veil too much).

Hell, even certain weapons can effectively just be considered a force multiplier in terms of CC. Generally those are the despised status weapons.

[Trackshot]

So, I agree with some of you guys. I see Harrow as an aggressive frame that can support his teammates the more aggressive he plays. He does that by buffing himself at a high cost (a sacrifice) becoming a lot stronger and getting rewards the better he performs.

I believe that is why so many people have problems with him. If the team is doing all the work, he gets no rewards, which isn`t fun. It doesn`t bother me, since I see that all is going smoothly, and I can relax, but I get the problem. 

I do think, however, that he does deserve a little change, specifically to his third power thurible. It doesn`t mach the rest of his kit entirely I think, besides being very underwhelming. The animation and mechanic is great, but all you do is spend energy to get energy. Fells dull to use, and rather pointless. Yes, yes, I know... Energy is the most important resource after your health but still, everyone playing finds a way to get it.

What I would propose is that Thurible be changed so you get some sort of buff from its use. Something that made Harrow kill things even better. It would put that power more on par with his second and last ability, being able to buff yourself, for a sacrifice of energy and having some energy distributed back to you and your teammates as a reward. It would also help him with his trouble with enemies on a level that he cannot kill, giving Harrow the option to sacrifice 2 thing (shields and energy) in order to get really powerful.

What that buff would be, that could be from a simple damage buff (boring... but always useful) or something else. He has a reload speed and fire speed buff, a critical chance buff, a status chance buff would be weird? or maybe a chance to inflict slashing procs with each attack? Or maybe his attacks create a small radius explosion a few seconds after landing, which would give him some AoE.

Anyway, change his thurible! Give it a buff of some sort! Make Harrow even more of a Killing Priest Murderer Support Machine Alien!