Mara Detron weaker than Detron

[DarkRuler2500]

Seriously? Why was the Detron buffed stronger than the ducat counterpart from Baro Ki'Teer.

I love Mara Detron (since Riven Mod ) and I'd love to see it at least on the same level as the Detron.

[rapt0rman]

Mara detron also has MUCH tighter spread and the longest range of all shotguns with falloff (there are now only three shotguns that don't have falloff), which makes it much more viable past point blank.

Sometimes unconventional buffs are more useful than direct damage.

Also as said below, mag and fire rate which encourages you to put out more shots in general which will be much better burst damage at higher lvls.

Edited June 29, 2017 by rapt0rman

[letir]

Mara Detron have better accuracy, ammo capacity and fire rate. It's sidegrade.

[IceColdHawk]

2 hours ago, letir said:

Mara Detron have better accuracy, ammo capacity and fire rate. It's sidegrade.

Should be an upgrade though just like any other prisma, prime, wraith or vandal weapon. And mara is pretty much prisma. The damage could've just stayed the same as detron. No need to tone it down when other shotgun sidearms get a kickass buff.

Leave that sidegrade opportunity to other weapons of the same kind. Just how pyrana is a sidegrade to the brakk.

Edited June 29, 2017 by IceColdHawk

[TheGrimCorsair]

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

Should be an upgrade though just like any other prisma, prime, wraith or vandal weapon. And mara is pretty much prisma. The damage could've just stayed the same as detron. No need to tone it down when other shotgun sidearms get a kickass buff.

Leave that sidegrade opportunity to other weapons of the same kind. Just how pyrana is a sidegrade to the brakk.

Nah, sidegrade is fine for it.

[letir]

1 hour ago, IceColdHawk said:

Should be an upgrade though just like any other prisma, prime, wraith or vandal weapon. And mara is pretty much prisma. The damage could've just stayed the same as detron. No need to tone it down when other shotgun sidearms get a kickass buff.

Leave that sidegrade opportunity to other weapons of the same kind. Just how pyrana is a sidegrade to the brakk.

Please, don't pull word "should" out of nowhere. No need to push powecreep with every new weapon variant.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, letir said:

Please, don't pull word "should" out of nowhere. No need to push powecreep with every new weapon variant.

 

2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

Should be an upgrade though just like any other prisma, prime, wraith or vandal weapon.

History and Consistency my mate, not "nowhere". And how is mara detron powercreep with having the same damage as detron? Will it outcreep the other secondary shotguns then? No, it won't.

Mara Detron was always an upgrade of the standard Detron. Not by a large margin but it was. And now it's arguably worse. More fire rate which isn't really needed for that small clip and because of Lethal Torrent's existence. Now 70 total base dmg loss (-25%) on the other hand is a huge impact for a shotgun.

Or instead of bringing Mara Detron on the level of the other sidearm shotguns, we can just let it be the worst of the bunch...

[Voltage]

5 hours ago, letir said:

Mara Detron have better accuracy, ammo capacity and fire rate. It's sidegrade.

With this logic, should Soma Prime be a side-grade to Soma or Prisma Skana be a side-grade to Skana? Mara Detron should be a straight upgrade as there are no other Detron Variants. If there was Detron Vandal as an upgrade, then a side-grade is suitable, but this is not the case. 

[rapt0rman]

The idea that direct damage is what defines an upgrade is silly, I don't consider mara detron to be a side grade, everything else it has over the regular detron makes it a more effective weapon.

Actually hitting the enemy with more pellets=more damage

less harsh falloff=more damage

bigger mag and faster fire rate=more damage

Same with people's complaints about ignis wraith, supra vandal, and the recent dex furis buff.

Edited June 29, 2017 by rapt0rman

[DoomFruit]

10 hours ago, rapt0rman said:

The idea that direct damage is what defines an upgrade is silly, I don't consider mara detron to be a side grade, everything else it has over the regular detron makes it a more effective weapon.

Actually hitting the enemy with more pellets=more damage

less harsh falloff=more damage

bigger mag and faster fire rate=more damage

Same with people's complaints about ignis wraith, supra vandal, and the recent dex furis buff.

More accuracy - yes, that is nice, but it was already pretty good with targetting receptor which gave you the added utility of zooming in for your extra accuracy or spamming on the run when something's next to you and you actually want the extra spread because you can't afford to take the time to aim properly.

Falloff - wasn't necessary in the first place. I don't know why DE felt it necessary to ruin secondary shotguns with this blanket nerf. They were already rare enough in the game - did we really need to be further discouraged from using them (see also: blanket sniper nerf with scope sway and ridiculous hipfire inaccuracy)? The lack of damage falloff was the one thing which made them worth considering before - they did significantly less damage than a tigris or hek, but the only drop off with range was because the pellets physically didn't hit your target. Now they do significantly less damage than a tigris or hek, AND they're out-ranged by my orthos prime. Pistol shotguns are now basically melee weapons which consume ammo. Pointless.

Faster fire rate doesn't matter when the base version already shoots pretty fast and you've got the same ammo capacity and ammo per pickup as any other pistol - it just means that you're going to run out more quickly. The reload speed is already incredibly fast, so the extra magazine capacity makes little difference in practice.

[letir]

12 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

 

History and Consistency my mate, not "nowhere". And how is mara detron powercreep with having the same damage as detron? Will it outcreep the other secondary shotguns then? No, it won't.

Mara Detron was always an upgrade of the standard Detron. Not by a large margin but it was. And now it's arguably worse. More fire rate which isn't really needed for that small clip and because of Lethal Torrent's existence. Now 70 total base dmg loss (-25%) on the other hand is a huge impact for a shotgun.

Or instead of bringing Mara Detron on the level of the other sidearm shotguns, we can just let it be the worst of the bunch...

Mara Detron have adavantages over standart Detron, and have same damage as Brakk. Hardly a bad deal. It's just different version.

11 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

With this logic, should Soma Prime be a side-grade to Soma or Prisma Skana be a side-grade to Skana? Mara Detron should be a straight upgrade as there are no other Detron Variants. If there was Detron Vandal as an upgrade, then a side-grade is suitable, but this is not the case. 

No, it shouldn't. There is no need to make on weapon strictly inferior version, and no reason to do so. If you aren't satisfied with M Detron, then get usual version.

[Voltage]

3 hours ago, letir said:

Mara Detron have adavantages over standart Detron, and have same damage as Brakk. Hardly a bad deal. It's just different version.

Brakk is a crit viable sidearm shotgun. You cannot even compare...

[letir]

20 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Brakk is a crit viable sidearm shotgun. You cannot even compare...

Mara Detron is status viable mid-range shotty. Try to hit something with recoil and dispersion of Brakk, and you will understand.

[Voltage]

8 hours ago, letir said:

Mara Detron is status viable mid-range shotty. Try to hit something with recoil and dispersion of Brakk, and you will understand.

Brakk is completely different than Mara Detron, and is better. I do not understand your argument of Mara should be a sidegrade when Detron has no other variants. Even Ignis wraith is a straight upgrade due to its increased criticals despite the reduced damage.

Edited July 1, 2017 by --Q--Voltage

[letir]

1 hour ago, --Q--Voltage said:

Brakk is completely different than Mara Detron, and is better. I do not understand your argument of Mara should be a sidegrade when Detron has no other variants. Even Ignis wraith is a straight upgrade due to its increased criticals despite the reduced damage.

I do not understand why do we need every gun in "upgraded" variant with better stats. There isn't any reason to make one gun "just better". It dosen't add anything to gameplay, it dosen't promote variety, so why? To mark one version "mastery fodder" and second with "real gun"?

[Voltage]

19 minutes ago, letir said:

I do not understand why do we need every gun in "upgraded" variant with better stats. There isn't any reason to make one gun "just better". It dosen't add anything to gameplay, it dosen't promote variety, so why? To mark one version "mastery fodder" and second with "real gun"?

That is essentially asking why do people want primed mods if you can just use the base version. The nature of this game is upgrading yourself. Upgraded variants of weapons is what this game runs off of with Primes and other variants. Why would you invest money in Prime Access or Events when the reward you get is a sidegrade?

[letir]

10 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

That is essentially asking why do people want primed mods if you can just use the base version. The nature of this game is upgrading yourself. Upgraded variants of weapons is what this game runs off of with Primes and other variants. Why would you invest money in Prime Access or Events when the reward you get is a sidegrade?

Well, you can invest time to grind parts of Detron, or time to grind ducats and credits for Mara Detron.

What's the problem?

Do you physically need clear "mastery fodder" label on one gun? Do you want to have a gun which you mastering to 30 and then drop, because it's strictly worse? You cannot play without new, shiny carrot?

Or you simply salty because you sell "inferior" Detron before?

[IceColdHawk]

14 hours ago, letir said:

I do not understand why do we need every gun in "upgraded" variant with better stats.

For progression's sake and because that's what warframe is. Upgrades that are more expensive and harder to get which you should get later in your journey. Of course they should be better. And they are. Except for mara detron for some reason. This is an outlier (or maybe just an oversight) which needs to be fixed.

2 hours ago, letir said:

Do you physically need clear "mastery fodder" label on one gun? Do you want to have a gun which you mastering to 30 and then drop, because it's strictly worse? You cannot play without new, shiny carrot?

Something is only mastery fodder when it's useless. A Soma will help you easily in your starchart journey until you can get your hands on Soma Prime. So Soma Prime doesn't render the normal Soma as mastery fodder. Now a Kraken, that will get you nowhere.

2 hours ago, letir said:

Or you simply salty because you sell "inferior" Detron before?

I don't think we're salty about that. Never really used detron anyway. Also Pyrana and Bronco Primes blow the Detron out of the water easily. I'm just fine with my Pyrana but i still would like to point out flaws or mistakes within a patch.

Edited July 2, 2017 by IceColdHawk

[letir]

5 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

For progression's sake and because that's what warframe is. Upgrades that are more expensive and harder to get which you should get later in your journey. Of course they should be better. And they are. Except for mara detron for some reason. This is an outlier (or maybe just an oversight) which needs to be fixed.

Last time i checked Detron was RNG dependant gun, when Mara Detron is simple matter of grinding. So, by this logic, Detron should be better gun.

Also, Warframe don't have progression. Even MR rating are shoddy at best. It simply have power creep and balance issues.

[Realhero25]

3 hours ago, letir said:

Last time i checked Detron was RNG dependant gun, when Mara Detron is simple matter of grinding. So, by this logic, Detron should be better gun.

Also, Warframe don't have progression. Even MR rating are shoddy at best. It simply have power creep and balance issues.

Last time I checked Cernos Prime was RNG dependent gun, when Rakta Cernos is simple matter of grinding (or trading, like the mara detron). Guess which one is better?

[letir]

Just now, Realhero25 said:

Last time I checked Cernos Prime was RNG dependent gun, when Rakta Cernos is simple matter of grinding (or trading, like the mara detron). Guess which one is better?

I guess we have enough "better" guns.

[jragonsoul]

16 hours ago, Realhero25 said:

Last time I checked Cernos Prime was RNG dependent gun, when Rakta Cernos is simple matter of grinding (or trading, like the mara detron). Guess which one is better?

This would only hold water if the Cernos prime WAS better than the Rakta Sernos (Kinda how the Mara Detron WAS better than the Detron) and then changed it after months/years of being in game. If these just were the stats no one would have had a problem i don't think. Since they weren't and were changed this has caused an uproar. Like I put 5 forma into my Mara Detron and sold my regular Detron (But I have enough parts to seriously make 2 more regular detrons, so that's not an issue) because the Mara was better. I am not too upset because I don't use either of them and don't think that will change BUT it just doesn't make sense to me how they made it a side grade.

[(PSN)lhbuch]

Well if Mara Detron has reasons to be worst than the regular Detron, I can only imagine the SALT if our dear friend Baro brought it already worst.

I also DOUBT that DE will ever make Baro bring a worst weapon than the regular one. I DOUBT. They can nerf it after, but wont make him bring it already inferior.

[jragonsoul]

Also in reference to the Cernos Prime, people are asking for it to be fixed to your argument holds absolutely no water what so ever. Anything else to add? XD

 

[Combustionsquirrel]

I just wanted to point out to everyone that is talking about how the Mara is now a side-grade compared to the regular Detron that the total difference in damage is 70 points base. That big of a base damage difference leads to a colossal difference when mods are accounted for. For example, my Mara Detron setup currently deals 11161 damage per shot, which means that it has a mod damage multiplier^* of 53.15x . If I were to use the same mod setup on the regular Detron, by using the same mod-damage multiplier I calculate that I would deal 14881 damage per shot.

Does a slightly tighter spread, slightly reduced damage falloff distance, faster fire rate (when it was already plenty fast), and larger magazine (when the reload speed is 1 second) really make up for a 3720 damage per shot difference?

^{*By mod damage multiplier I mean by how much mods increase the total damage output of the weapon. Calculated by taking the post-mod damage and dividing by the base damage}

Besides it shouldn't be a side-grade to a normal variant. The Wraith/Vandal/Prisma/Dex variants of other weapons (besides the Dex Furis as per this same update, or the Ignis Wraith) all have at least the same damage as their normal variants. As for the Dex Furis/Ignis Wraith, they buff the weapons in areas that scale well, and a 6/2 damage disparity (respectively) is much less than a 70 damage disparity.

Edit: Alright, time to do the edit of shame. I just got done with a mission where I used my Mara Detron, and either I hadn't payed attention to the spread, or hadn't used it since the buff, but the spread is actually quite tight post-buff. But I still maintain that it's kinda lame that the raw damage numbers didn't get buffed as much as the regular Detron, and that the Mara variant should be a direct buff instead of a side-grade. At least make it do 35 damage per pellet (5 more than it currently is) so the base damage difference is 35 as opposed to 70.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Combustionsquirrel