Mutalist Alad V Boss Battle Is Poorly Designed

[NebbyOtt]

Please note before reading that the old title of this thread was "Mutalist Alad V Boss Battle in Sortie Mode is Factually Impossible", I later found out it wasn't and wrote everything after Update:

 

So we tried to do this boss battle in the Sortie, watch this video from beginning to end. Don't worry its been edited.

Please watch this from beginning to end as most of my argument is in the video, and then there's a little joke at the end for dessert.

In the video i say "Unless you gather a roll team" and theres 2 things i wanna say about that.

Firstly, what i mean by a roll team, by "Roll Team" i am referring to when people recruit teams with specific rolls, (Ev, Damage buff, Main damage, other; is usually how it goes)

Secondly, Its perfectly possible that i was wrong, and this can't even be done with a roll team, i would believe it. If it can be it would take a very long time.

UPDATE:

So i read all your replies, (Thanks for not notifying me, website) And perhaps i did jump to conclusions because i was frustrated, which was immature of me. But you have to understand, he was slowed and we were giving him good blasts of about 4000-8000 damage at a time from 2 players with a Tigres Prime and he wasn't getting hurt at all. So maybe its not impossible, its possible if you bring a few specific frames or you bring a preplanned team, but thats not what a boss battle should be. Just the fact that an experienced player like myself legitimately thought that it was impossible is a huge sign that the boss battle is poorly designed. (I have 1,700+ hours in Warframe, I own every Warframe, and if the Warframe has a prime variant i own that instead, that's a slippery slope into the category or just showing off but the point is that i would call myself "experienced", but there's the information so make your own judgement.) Even if its at a much higher level than usual. No boss battle ever should rely on invincibility periods.

Tell me. When you go to fight this boss what is closer to what you think? "Oh boy, time to farm. I have to put on this frame and this weapon and get someone else who will wear this frame and bring this weapon and I have to do this thing and he has to do that thing, can't wait till this is over and i get my reward." Or "Oh cool I get to do that fun Mutalist Alad V boss battle! I think i'll invite my friend and we can rock this together!" Be honest.

I think Egorapter nails it PERFECTLY in his Sequilities videos, Heres one about zelda where he talks about boss battles for a while https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOC3vixnj_0

The boss battle can be different when you bring the loadout you want to bring but it shouldn't be practically impossible if you don't bring this loadout or that loadout. Maybe i like Banshee and the Burston Prime and the Lex and the Dex Dakura, don't make me switch to something else just to make it possible to beat your boss make a boss thats possible to beat it my way, and be fun at the same time, and step one is removing the invincibility frames. Because that's the worst of it. The Raptor boss is one of my favorite bosses, you know why?

3 reasons:

1) It's interesting! Theres stuff you need to do, there's an objective other than killing a thing, you need to kill a Raptor, grab its core power cell before it explodes, drop it in an assembly chamber, and destroy it. Its interesting and it feels like your doing something.

2) Invincibility frames. There are none! There is no point that i know of that the Raptor is invincible, except maybe when its first deployed before it has a chance to start fighting, which would be fair. The pace of the battle is dictated by the player and how they approach the battle, not the AI saying "YOU ARE NOT ALOUD TO HIT ME RIGHT NOW". Its ok to have the AI dictate the pace of the battle, as long as it's not by making itself invincible.

3)It's well paced! It doesn't last a million years; even if the level gets drastically increased. The raptors don't have a stupid amount of health and the main objective of the mission isn't about killing this many raptors or killing this super super hard enemy with different attack patterns and invincibility frames, at the end of the day its about getting their power cores to overload and dropping them in the 3 assembly chambers

In the Alad V battle, you can only hit him for seconds at a time, even less because i believe he puts his shield back up when he's been hit. (from what i could tell) So forget bringing something like a soma.  If you can't oneshot him in the short time he's vulnerable (or at least get his health a good way down in one or 2 shots), you may as well call it quits, because he likes to regen his shields and even some health while he's invincible, so it will take you a very long time to slowly drain it down to 0 if you can at all.

I will keep up the video because i like the joke at the end, i feel like that analogy can be jokingly made a lot about some aspects of warframe and i kinda wanna make it a running gag in my videos, also so that newcomers know what tf i'm talking about because the majority of my argument is in there

Edited July 23, 2017 by TennoHack
Added everything after Update: (made a few changes)

[warp_cat]

My friends completed this mission. Problems in you.

[ashrah]

i did it solo.. but u need to make u own strat..ammo plates needed

[bluepheonix13]

Me and my cousin did it easily with Nova and Frost. While I agree that it took a while, it was nowhere near impossible. 

[m00ndr3nch]

Dude, I killed it in public from the 1st try being Mesa, just stick to a S#&$ty primary with no mods in case it controls you and ult him when he buts his barrier down. Don't even remember which frames others played, but some guy even outdamaged me and a whole fight took like 3 minutes, there some problem in your tactics or frames or whatever, also video is laggy so idk what you did wrong.

[Faulcun]

I love how people deem something impossible because it cant possibly be their own error... therefore the game must be broken.

[Moysa]

did it in five minutes with randoms. got to the room, someone got collared, the 2 mesas obliterated him

[Aeon94]

It is possible , did it with randoms. Oberon ( me ) , Inaros , Mesa and Ember. Took like dunno 5 - 7 min but we did it with no issue.

[m00ndr3nch]

All right, I watched the video, now u do these things wrong:

You get in melee range when he is vulnerable - he pushes u away

You stand in the aoe of moas and die there

You don't kill the infested and they swarm you

You chase him when he is invunerable instead of doing the previuos ^^^

You can't locate him fast enough when he is vulnerable

YOU put the globes where they are not needed thus making it hard to target him or infested from some angles

and this is only the mistakes that cathes an eye from the quick glimse, so the answer is - git good, dude

and you have something wrong with your tigris' iif you rly do that low dmg as u say u do

Edited July 23, 2017 by m00ndr3nch
last line

[SKY-WALKER2015]

easy strat ----> banshee+chroma=Mission complete 

[Leahzar]

Did it first time full random team.
I was on Octavia, keeping the infested busy with my teammate slow nova. 
Then we had an Inaros and another melee frame going at Salad. I opticor'd him when he was vulnerable.

Took about 5minutes SeemsGood 

[ashyrae]

I pubbed it with a Trinity, Nidus, and another frame I can't remember, while playing as Rhino. Whenever he'd become vulnerable, I'd stomp, and the squad would smack him until the duration (~8 sec or so) ran out. Rinse and repeat, easy fight.

[redeyedtreefrog]

I believe this is the third sortie with mutalist alad V assassinate that I've completed. In this specific team, it was L(Valkyr Prime) P(nezha) yours truly,(oberon prime) and a random who played trinity. L, P, and I were in a voice chat at the time, if that matters.

It took us, maybe 10 minutes. Originally my plan was to use a gas-modded strun to bypass his shields and be able to deal damage to his health without first requiring his shields to be down. That worked, but I did not take most damage dealt in the stats. I sat at about 20 while P and his nezha took 30%. L and the random each took around 25%.

for the most part, we kept our distance from the target. L with valkyr obviously took a melee-centric approach, but I kept at mid-range and nezha/trinity stayed at long range. we dealt somewhere between 5 and 10 percent of his health each vulnerability period.

It looks to me like this is simply a case of you not knowing the mechanics.

[NebbyOtt]

Ok, i see and have updated the OP

[Faulcun]

2 hours ago, TennoHack said:

So i read all your replies, (Thanks for not notifying me, website) And perhaps i did jump to conclusions because i was frustrated, which was immature of me. But you have to understand, he was slowed and we were giving him good blasts of about 4000-8000 damage at a time from 2 players with a Tigres Prime and he wasn't getting hurt at all. So maybe its not impossible, its possible if you bring a few specific frames or you bring a preplanned team, but thats not what a boss battle should be. Just the fact that an experienced player like myself legitimately thought that it was impossible is a huge sign that the boss battle is poorly designed. Even if its at a much higher level than usual. No boss battle ever should rely on invincibility periods. When you go to fight this boss what are you thinking? "Oh boy, time to farm." Or "Oh cool I get to do that fun Mutalist Alad V boss battle!" Be honest. I think Egorapter nails it PERFECTLY in his Sequilities videos, Heres one where he talks about boss battle

Gonna shoot you straight here bro. You are severely missing the point people are trying to tell you.

The majority of people here, including myself, did this with randoms with no pre-planning. It did not take a special team, and it has nothing to do with invincibility frames or whatever else. You simply need to know how the battle works.

What you are doing now with your edit is making excuses. What you and your team were doing was using gimicky tactics and meta builds because thats whats popular floating around the community (not your fault the community doesnt know what its doing half the time either). In fact, I ran these a second time with my clan members, and they were all leveling weapons through this (again, still no organization other than using physical damage builds because of elemental enhancement)

An experienced player does not have the word "impossible" in their vocabulary. With that being said, i encourage you to reach out to somebody or a clan that does not have these issues so you have an opportunity to grow and become a better player in ways you may not be able to see at the moment.

The first thing I would tell you is "forget everything you think you know already. Now pick a setup and weapons you enjoy playing with because you like them, not because #opsmasheverythingbecausemeta." and dont worry about the difficulty of the mission.

Id be happy to take you along the mission if you still need help completing it.. even though i only got a silly lens today :(

Edited July 23, 2017 by Faulcun

[NebbyOtt]

Just now, Faulcun said:

 

I'm still actively rereading and making changes to the OP just so you know

[Faulcun]

Just now, TennoHack said:

I'm still actively rereading and making changes to the OP just so you know

yeah i hit reply without typing my message on accident. im editing it now.

[Faulcun]

fixed my post.

And no, when i run this with clan members, we never bring organized builds because we never feel like we need it.

[NekroArts]

3 hours ago, TennoHack said:

I think Egorapter nails it PERFECTLY in his Sequilities videos, Heres one about zelda where he talks about boss battles for a while https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOC3vixnj_0

I agree it can be long but in no way is it impossible, even in retrospect.

[NebbyOtt]

1 minute ago, NekroArts said:

I agree it can be long but in no way is it impossible, even in retrospect.

 

3 hours ago, TennoHack said:

perhaps i did jump to conclusions because i was frustrated, which was immature of me. maybe its not impossible, its possible if you bring a few specific frames or you bring a preplanned team, but thats not what a boss battle should be. Just the fact that an experienced player like myself legitimately thought that it was impossible is a huge sign that the boss battle is poorly designed.

The point of the post use to be that its impossible, but its changed to that its just badly designed in general

I can understand that DE has to rework EVERY boss that already exists that they haven't already, along with EEEEVERYTHING else that's on their plate, its not a #1 concern, and you can tell that since they made this boss battle, DE has already learned what i've been saying here and what Arin said in the video, (Raptor, Kela De Thaym, the other reworked ones) I think Vor was reworked, if so it was before my time, but i think he deals with invincibility frames okay, not the worst, he dies, and is only invincible for a short time after he respawns, just like you, so its fair, it also gives you a chance to kill a small wave of enemies, and its not overwhelming for the new player.

[NekroArts]

1 minute ago, TennoHack said:

The point of the post use to be that its impossible, but its changed to that its just badly designed in general

Your title.

[NebbyOtt]

2 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

Your title.

Point. I'll change it

[Faulcun]

3 minutes ago, TennoHack said:

The point of the post use to be that its impossible, but its changed to that its just badly designed in general

You are deflecting from the real issue. Your opinions of the mechanics of the boss battle are legitimate, sure.... but it has nothing to do with why you are having trouble with it.

4 minutes ago, TennoHack said:

and its not overwhelming for the new player.

This is another issue with the game.... simply because new players can gain access to missions like this so quickly. New players should not be in these high level missions to begin with.

[MystMan]

14 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

This is another issue with the game.... simply because new players can gain access to missions like this so quickly. New players should not be in these high level missions to begin with.

This.

It's always the same rhetoric in these anti-sortie threads.  

"We shouldn't have to do this..."
"The game doesn't show us how we could do that..."
"I have X hours in the game so I'm experienced enough to say this is broken...."

Fact is, the TRULY experienced players steamroll through sorties every day in a very short time. If you can't, then you're not as experienced as you think you are, you have a lot more to learn. Sorties are meant for those who mastered the game fundamentals.

If these sorties were truly a problem or badly designed, you'd see everybody complaining en masse about sorties each day unable to finish them and they would have been changed by now. But they haven't because there is nothing wrong with them. Same goes with Mastery Tests , who also get their share of forum complaints.

No matter what any game developer does in their game, there will always be a small group that will cry "broken because it's hard". 

Modesty, people!  Develop it!  When something is too hard, look inward and see if it's you that is the problem before blaming others. 
Stop repeating the same mistakes expecting different results. That is madness. When something doesn't work, try something different.

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by MystMan

[NebbyOtt]

1 hour ago, Faulcun said:

*long message that would be spam to fully quote*

Sorry, just read this message after my last reply, and while i wouldn't agree that i was making excuses, i can agree that i'm not completely right, when i make a post like this i'm never saying that what is coming out of my mouth is the 100% truth and don't listen to anyone else, what i say in my posts is my opinion, or my view of the topic, or the truth as i know it. And i do think that, even if its possible and i wasn't doing it right, its still not a well designed boss battle in general.

That being said. That is how you freaking do it dude *Applauds*

Let me explain, You described to me why i was wrong about something in a way that, not only made sense, but also didn't shove down my throat how superior you are and how much better you know than me. And as a cherry on top, you offered to help me do it. There are a lot of experts in Warframe, I consider myself one, but you are one of the few people i would call a professional.

If your wondering what i mean exactly, check out paragraph 1, 2, and 6 from this article:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20141118061523-5300410-what-is-the-difference-between-an-expert-and-a-professional

He goes a little far with it but in short an expert would be someone who knows a LOT about one specific subject and act and or feel know it all-y. I won't pretend i'm not exactly that.

A professional would know a good amount of everything specific to blank and are genuinely helpful and don't act like everything they know is super obvious or the other person is a bad player because they don't know something or think something that is wrong is right.

In conclusion you are a good person and i would be honored to fight that boss with you if it's still up. Let me just try it a couple more times on my own first.

13 minutes ago, MystMan said:

This.

It's always the same rhetoric in these anti-sortie threads.  

"We shouldn't have to do this..."
"The game doesn't show us how we could do that..."
"I have X hours in the game so I'm experienced enough to say this is broken...."

Fact is, the TRULY experienced players steamroll through sorties every day in a very short time. If you can't, then you're not as experienced as you think you are, you have a lot more to learn. Sorties are meant for those who mastered the game fundamentals.

If these sorties were truly a problem or badly designed, you'd see everybody complaining en masse about sorties each day unable to finish them and they would have been changed by now. But they haven't because there is nothing wrong with them. Same goes with Mastery Tests , who also get their share of forum complaints.

No matter what any game developer does in their game, there will always be a small group that will cry "broken because it's hard". 

Modesty, people!  Develop it!  When something is too hard, look inward and see if it's you that is the problem before blaming others. 
Stop repeating the same mistakes expecting different results. That is madness. When something doesn't work, try something different.

 

(You posted while i was typing)

Firstly, i never said the sorties were broken, i said that that specific boss battle is broken by the sortie, but i admit i jumped to conclusions. I typically do the sorties solo, but Sortie Assassinations are that sort of thing where i'm like... "aw man," Because I never practice those unless its in a sortie or a really good alert.

Secondly, I never said i was good at Warframe, just that i'm experienced, and even that, i didn't say i was that experienced or that i know what i'm talking about, i just said the truth as i knew it and my opinion about it. And like i said, even with everything everyone said, I still think its a bad boss battle, because its boring, i brought up the Raptor fight, like i said, When you go to this boss battle, do you think "Time to farm" or "Alright! I love the Mutilist Alad V Battle!"

Thirdly, I agree with you about the small group who will always be crying about something, but personally, i only cry if i think something is legitimately bad or broken and the Devs would actually do something about it, and while broken may have been cut down, its still bad IMO. If my opinion is unique and others don't agree that its not a good battle, then so be it, but i think that i'm not exactly wrong when i say that it could be made better.

Edited July 24, 2017 by TennoHack
Added a responce to another comment to reduce spam, removed a cuss that i didn't realize i put down