Ember's Deluxe Skin Feedback

[Sean]

While I find this skin to be pretty terrible due to it completely missing what Ember is, the way DE handled the critical posts only worsens my opinion of the skin.

 

As for why I feel the skin is terrible:

- Feels that someone just thought of "Chicken" when seeing Ember and ran with it

- The initial concept that was released (not the one DE altered) was substantially better

- The mohawk on Ember just looks bad and prefer both the Prime version and the initial concept's version as they both stepped away from being overt mohawks

 

Here's a post by the original concept artist that I feel hits the nail right on the head when it comes to the faults of this skin.

Spoiler

 

 

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

I'll be direct, I have never liked Ember's models. Normal or Prime. Every time I login to my PC account, I wish I had a little cash to throw at the Ember Graxx. I have a gorgeous color setup for it on my console account, it's one of my few successful fashionframes.

Spoiler

Lighting conceals the colors, but take my word for it: it's really nice.

Ember doesn't have much of an identity in her appearance, outside of the bulky thigh ornaments and the crest, That goes for the Prime, too. So the DX was going to be a departure one way or another. But there's just a lot about the skin that looks... like part of a different frame, I guess? Not Zephyr specifically, I just get the strong impression that some parts don't belong there. The pauldrons feel bizarre, partly because of the shape at the tips, but also the thickness. They don't gel with the rest of the model. The feathers on the thighs look okay, but the ones on the arms? They look like they were stapled on. I actually like the helm, but the crest feels odd because of the thinness of her midriff. She's the wrong kind of top-heavy. If it were separate ribs instead of a single solid crest, it would look a lot cleaner. (Just realized it is...)

I have difficulty putting words to my aesthetics when it comes to art, partly because it takes me a while to decide how I feel about something. Wish I could give more detailed feedback, there's definitely more I'm iffy about.

Edited November 2, 2017 by (PS4)BlitzKeir

[(XBOX)Babadookcf]

Regardless if DE changes it or not, one thing for sure is that they will continue to get negative feedback by releasing deluxe skins like these ones.  They say they are big on community feedback and thrive on it so they'll see a trend and hopefully will try to improve on it in the future. I don't think they'll ever change ember's skin given how much people opposed way before it's release. 

[Archeyef]

I actually think DE's deluxe fits Ember pretty well. Ever since DE started giving frames their own animation sets, Ember has had a bit of a flamboyant punk vibe. Which this deluxe skin captures pretty well. Better than Ignus' deluxe, in my opinion, which to me looks too bland for Ember.

[(XBOX)x Varda x]

I do like it but for a more phoenix look the crest could be turned around to rise at the back a la mohawk helmet?

[ZoneDymo]

instead of business lady we get a Punk Rocker / bikerhick and I love it, she just looks badass.

[ZoneDymo]

Instead of business lady we get a punk rocker / biker chick.

She still has the design of a chicken which ember has ALWAYS had and I think it fits her much better then the old art version.
 

Lastly if you design something with the mentality that everyone must like it, you are doing it wrong.
The best things are polarizing, some like it, some dont, it keeps variation going.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by ZoneDymo

[Kelshiso]

"Feedback on our Deluxe Skins are always welcome, but please remember that there is a strong difference between constructive and rude."

As a graduate of a Bachelors in Graphic Design, sometimes the best constructive criticism is "start over". Ember is already jokingly referred to as "Chicken Prime" and similar. All of ember's looks besides the Tennogen ones are punk themed. Neither of these ideas should be present in her deluxe skin. Embracing the joke and continuing the baseline aesthetic is the wrong approach. Everyone preferred the previous concept because it broke her running theme for a fresh, new look that maintained her fire theme.

On the complete opposite side, we got it paired with the Nekros Irkalla skin that everyone loves. Why is this? I believe it's because it takes his theme, but approaches it from the opposite side. Nekros has a kind of decrepit grave digger feel to his aesthetic. He's meaty, but still bony. He's got what looks like loose flesh and veins all over him. It's like a zombie, or almost such; the undertaker that guides the dead. Irkalla comes from the other direction. He's not the undertaker anymore, he's one that never had his rites after death. A possessed ghoul fading continuously between reality and the afterlife, seeking vengeance. It's these two different takes that makes Irkalla so compelling, he's still very much lord of the dead, but through a completely different mindset.

All I can think when I see Ember Vermillion is "peacock". A simple thought, but there is nowhere else to take it from Vermillion. It doesn't tell a story, it's just a representation, little more than a generic character archetype. Nothing about it says "fire", which could've at the least been done by making the feathers flame-shaped. The lower arms and legs reinforce the bird aesthetic as being reminiscent of bird legs, which ties into the aforementioned "embracing the joke". This is neither the time or place to do so.

Ember's "Volcanic" deluxe concept did what Irkalla does. Instead of being the fiery phoenix that's ready to prove her point is the only point that matters, she's now serene grace that hides rocky hellfire ready to ruin your world should it be provoked. I loved the original concept that was revealed alongside Frost's Harka skin. Looking at the concept now, I can only imagine how fantastic those rifts of fire would look done up how limbo's are.

I'm not so active in the comings and goings to know why the original concept was dropped for this, but this is essentially Nova Asuri 2. Asuri was at least saved to some extent by being recolored and using a different head, but the backlash was still very real there. This backlash was also immediate after the reveal of the concept, the same as here for Ember. Neither case was this backlash heeded, and it exploded on the release of the actual skin in the game.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Kelshiso

[IgnusDei]

1 minute ago, ZoneDymo said:

instead of business lady we get a Punk Rocker / bikerhick and I love it, she just looks badass.

There is more to the punk rock aesthetic than a Mohawk. Lots of punks have done without that hairdo and are still identifiable as Punks. Where is Vermillion's black leather jacket? Her Anarchy symbols? Her elaborate tattoos? Her silver buckles? Her belt? Her piercings? Her heavy eyeshadow? All of these are needed to provide a context that ties the mohawk to the punk look. Without that context? A Mohawk becomes little more than a crest, and crests can be associated with any number of things.

[ZoneDymo]

1 hour ago, Sean said:

While I find this skin to be pretty terrible due to it completely missing what Ember is, the way DE handled the critical posts only worsens my opinion of the skin.

As for why I feel the skin is terrible:

- Feels that someone just thought of "Chicken" when seeing Ember and ran with it

- The initial concept that was released (not the one DE altered) was substantially better

- The mohawk on Ember just looks bad and prefer both the Prime version and the initial concept's version as they both stepped away from being overt mohawks

Maybe you are completely missing what ember is?

- Ember has always been a chicken, Nekros has always been an undead, Loki has always been a Samurai, Ash has always been a ninja, Inaros has always been a mummy.
Sticking with that in your mind to design a new skin is a good thing...

- ok so this skin is "Terrible" because the other is "better", solid argumentation, glad it was in your 3 point list.

- oh it just looks bad and you prefer the others, again, solid arguments.... also why not buy the skin and use one of the other helmets then? mix and match yo.

Honestly you act like you have some sort of actual objective reasoning/logic behind your opinion but really all you say is "I dont like it, I liked the other concept better",
And you know what? that is fine, you can like something else better, then this skin is not for you.

No need to get upset about not liking something, embrace it and enjoy seeing someone else walking around with it that did like it, Variation is the spice of life.

[Sean]

2 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

 

 

Nothing about the new skin has anything to do with Ember other than the "Chicken" aspect. Which, on its own, is a pretty horrid base to start with. Ember Prime focused more on "fire" and it turned out well. Problem with this skin is that it looks more like someone only took the chicken area and completely forgot that Ember's name is Ember. This design would work well on Zephyr, but Ember it just feels and looks forced.

[ZoneDymo]

Just now, IgnusDei said:

There is more to the punk rock aesthetic than a Mohawk. Lots of punks have done without that hairdo and are still identifiable as Punks. Where is Vermillion's black leather jacket? Her Anarchy symbols? Her elaborate tattoos? Her silver buckles? Her belt? Her piercings? Her heavy eyeshadow? All of these are needed to provide a context that ties the mohawk to the punk look. Without that context? A Mohawk becomes little more than a crest, and crests can be associated with any number of things.

and funny enough are you the only one obsessed with the mohawk, I never said anything about it, the helmet does only so much for me.
(actually about her helmet I like the creepy stalker-like egg head the most)
Her entire look is a warframe'd up version of all you mention, you can see it in her broad shoulders, the things on her arms that are feathers but might as well be like tassles or something from a leather jacket.

If you cant see that in the design, thats fine, I can and think the skin looks great.

Not everyone should like it as then we would see everyone walking around with it which would just be boring, variation is the spice of life.
I am not a fan of the Nova deluxe skin, does not mean I dont love that they added it so I can enjoy watching others wearing it.
I love Gara's alt helmet more then the standard, does not mean I did not want the standard to exist at all.

[nms.]

4 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

 

Loki has always been a Samurai

D: Loki has never been a samurai. The complete opposite. He is the "trickster", the knave, unscrupulous, not a samurai. None of the skins are samuraish, neither are his abilities.

Edited November 2, 2017 by nms.

[ZoneDymo]

1 minute ago, Sean said:

 

Nothing about the new skin has anything to do with Ember other than the "Chicken" aspect. Which, on its own, is a pretty horrid base to start with. Ember Prime focused more on "fire" and it turned out well. Problem with this skin is that it looks more like someone only took the chicken area and completely forgot that Ember's name is Ember. This design would work well on Zephyr, but Ember it just feels and looks forced.

and I do not agree, ember the phoenix, the chicken, so you take that and roll with it, that is a perfect base to start with
What does Nekros his skin have to do with Nekros other then the "undead" focus?
What does Rhino's skin have to do with Rhino other then some sort of Armored focus?
What does trinity's, loki's, Ash's or any other have to do with their frames more then Ember's new one has?

I mean honestly, if we just lit this new skin on fire (which she is when using World on Fire anyway) you would be more happy?

What does a business lady have to do with Ember.....?(referring to her previous design skin)

 

[ZoneDymo]

4 minutes ago, nms. said:

D: Loki has never been a samurai. The complete opposite. He is the "trickster", the knave, unscrupulous, not a samurai. None of the skins are samuraish, neither are his abilities.

I know what Loki is, im talking about his design.

[DeltaPangaea]

10 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

and I do not agree, ember the phoenix, the chicken, so you take that and roll with it, that is a perfect base to start with
What does Nekros his skin have to do with Nekros other then the "undead" focus?
What does Rhino's skin have to do with Rhino other then some sort of Armored focus?
What does trinity's, loki's, Ash's or any other have to do with their frames more then Ember's new one has?

I mean honestly, if we just lit this new skin on fire (which she is when using World on Fire anyway) you would be more happy?

What does a business lady have to do with Ember.....?(referring to her previous design skin)

 

Chicken is a lot worse of a basis than 'armor' or 'undead'

Those two are valid concepts for something meant to look cool.

Her being a chicken was a joke, and it should have stayed as one.

[Sean]

15 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

and I do not agree, ember the phoenix, the chicken, so you take that and roll with it, that is a perfect base to start with
What does Nekros his skin have to do with Nekros other then the "undead" focus?
What does Rhino's skin have to do with Rhino other then some sort of Armored focus?
What does trinity's, loki's, Ash's or any other have to do with their frames more then Ember's new one has?

I mean honestly, if we just lit this new skin on fire (which she is when using World on Fire anyway) you would be more happy?

What does a business lady have to do with Ember.....?(referring to her previous design skin)

 

Except each skin that you mentioned does fit.

Nekros has always been about the undead, hence his new skin fits.

Rhino has always been about being armored, so again, the skin fits

Trinity being a healer, Loki being the trickster, again, fits.

Banshee, sound.

Mag, Magnetism.

 

 

Really this skin has more in-line with a Peacock with the color choice, "chicken" is more of a joke-nickname, now exacerbated by the skin, that has stuck with Ember since before she was primed due to the mohawk and chicken-like feet. Combined with how this skin was just sprung on the community and DE pretending there was no negative reaction leading from that initial unveiling only furthers the point that the skin was rushed through and forced without too much thought. If they really wanted to further the idea of a Phoenix, there were also much better ways to accomplish that.

 

You keep saying "business suit," but the previous conceptualized skin is more "molten", as in the words of Ignusdei, "woman of fire," which fits Ember's namesake quite well.

 

 

Sidenote:

Not saying I even like all the deluxe skins, far from it in fact, but I can see that they fit the frames they are for.

 

Edited November 2, 2017 by Sean

[Revenant]

Topic for Devstream #100: Why is there a disproportionate dislike towards the Ember deluxe skin and how does DE plans to "fix" it. 

[Karthunk]

Ember is about hard edges and angles not floppy feather things; this new model is a horrible design choice.

 

Deleting my comment as a mod is fine but I want my warning with a link to the rule I broke.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Karthunk

[RahuHordika]

I'm going to have to disagree with the OP on the part about her looking different, if anything I think the body is very close to the base design and that is where my issue lies.

Besides needing what should've been more prominent fire themed design aspects, the body in on itself feels very close to the default ember in that you can almost see it if you removed the feathers, had the design diverted a bit more from that look I think this skin could've looked a lot better.

Oh and I personally don't dig the really exaggerated mohawk as amusing as then jiggles are.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

45 minutes ago, ZoneDymo said:

Ember has always been a chicken, Nekros has always been an undead, Loki has always been a Samurai, Ash has always been a ninja, Inaros has always been a mummy.
Sticking with that in your mind to design a new skin is a good thing...

-snip-

Variation is the spice of life.

Do you not see the problem with what you said? If variation is the spice of life, why should we stick with a specific visual theme? Why can't we explore another aspect of the character instead?

I feel that the Ember Deluxe is a result of the same hardcore 'theme adherence' that affected Nova's Asiri skin. the Asiri skin was just the logical extreme of the visual theme of the regular and prime versions, regardless of whether or not it actually fit the frame's mechanics and party role. The same can be said of Ember; this is just the logical extreme of the 'chicken' design she's always had before, despite the fact that her kit and role have nothing to do with chickens, poultry, birds, or anything similar.

Now, some Deluxe skins avoid this trap. Trinity's deluxe does not focus on being a lobster. Saryn's transforms a mas of Infestation into a beautiful flower. Banshee, Oberon and Rhino focus on their role/kit in their deluxe skins.

If DE would focus on the actual themes behind the frames, and not just their current appearance, then maybe we could get more excellent skins like Orphid and Soprano.

[Justice_Ember]

16 minutes ago, Karthunk said:

Deleting my comment as a mod is fine but I want my warning with a link to the rule I broke.

Good luck with that, my last thread about that lasted a good 43 minutes live before being removed.

[PikachuMarauder]

On 8/18/2017 at 4:15 PM, octobotimus said:

yes, but now the artist has to know they did all that for nothing......

 

I like the original as portrayed and I don't see why whomever had to have such a strong opinion about a mohawk being necessary.  People were putting mohawks on their toddlers over 10 years ago.  They really aren't all that "powerful" or punk any more.  It's an ok idea but if you let go of thinking and just feel the original, the mohawk is at odds with it along with the other additions.

I don't know any better way the artist could have conveyed their sense besides through the concept art itself.. 

Now everyone has to suffer over the disagreement that followed..

I don't care what happened.  Just put the original up and let me/us buy it.  Put the altered version up too.  I really don't care which sells more.

I look at my favorite deluxe skins and he made most of them.  I bought two for frames I don't even like playing and am strongly tempted by two others I don't play.  I'd love to see what he does with other frames especially Nova whom is my favorite to see and play.

 

[GinKenshin]

Tbh, I feel like the with the ‘phoenix’ idea, DE just took the easy way out to get the skin to us ASAP. Like for example, Frost deluxe concept wasn’t what I expected and I really love his skin, same with rhino 

 

the colors are all over the place and don’t really match. Don’t say they’re not important because they are. For a guy with little plat and has to make a choice of buying the skin...it’s very hard to find a good look in your mind with these default colors 

 

as others said as well, it just looks too similar to other frames mainly zephyr. It just doesn’t convey the idea of ember and her fiery theme 

 

but of course, this is DE we’re talking about, and they’ll never change anything when we ask to, mainly when it comes to a design choice....I just don’t see why you can’t say to the guy who worked on the skin ‘hey, you did an awesome job, we love your skin, but we’re gonna have to go back to the drawing board because the community doesn’t like your work’ 

 

and they can’t change it since they already released it and a few ppl bought/like it. Releasing another (even if it’ll take a year or so) won’t happen since ppl will say “hey why does ember get 2 and my fav frame still doesn’t have one?” 

 

 

 We’re basically F-ed and there’s no point in feedback...........at least ember p looks badass, gotta love Minkey work 

 

 

[Stoner]

When you look at the skin overall, it's a bit of a mess. Some parts are ok, some are completely out of place and others look good. Changing some stuff around I think would make it better:

1. Reduce the size of the Mohawk - It's way too big... In fact I dont think they could have gone with a bigger Mohawk >_> Maybe reduce it at about 70-80% if its actual size?
2. Add "energy" to the feathers - I can see they tried going for a phoenix but miserably failed. I think having the feathers being colorable based on the energy color would fix it. Some glowy fire effects on top of that wouldn't be bad either. It would help a lot making the skin look more like a phoenix instead of a peacock... Also, that would allow us to color the feathers separately from the rest. Not being to color them is kinda lame. 

 

If they fix those 2 things, I'm pretty sure it would look a loooot better. I've never seen them change a skin after they released it. But I hope they do now... that'd be such a waste if they let this thing as is.