World on Fire, Again.

[Djego27]

On 16.9.2017 at 10:52 PM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

having to shoot stuff doesnt make playing with a nova anyless brain dead.

Theres no challenge and thus no fun playing against a primed crowd. the current solution is to be on the opposite siide of the map or leave the mission, as with Ember.

How so? I never considered mprime as bad, be it with a speed nova for farming stuff or a slow nova in higher level missions.

Or is your point that by the years of overpowered weapons, rivens, focus, far to easy to play and tanky frames nothing really is a challenge and buffs like 2x damage, 75% rof and speed reduction for NPCs is not needed or wanted because of this today?

This was a extra armor survival sorti in the kuva fortress at L100, that I did solo(like most of my sortis) to give somebody a opinion about what you can and not can do with Ember as damage frame and how trivial the hole thing in comparison is with Inaros(it basically boils down to press 1 and then the melee button for finishers on defenceless targets that die in a single hit, while for some reason it can present a challenge even with 8 times the EHP and the broken weapons of today).

This was from last year for a discussion where somebody wanted to explain me here on the forums that Saryn is a good melee frame and would not believe me when I told him that Saryn is barely better then Ember at it, what has mostly to do how you have to mod weapons on Ember and is largely equalized since the the accelerant augment. Turns out Saryn is not the best thing since sliced bread for melee if you do not relied on broken stealth + gas proc interaction, the EHP discussion was fairly pointless given that both get more or less one hit anyway(so same deal for both) when things slow a bit more down and obviously somebody that relied on shadow step can not see the point of my complain that spore does not have a CC component.

I would like to say that both are decently challenging, but they are actually not because because the amount of broken mechanics at higher levels are not really something that requires good understanding of the game or a lot of player skill, but simply how to completely bypass the mechanics(like invisibility or god mode against damage scaling), what makes discussion about frame and weapon balance unfortunately pointless with most people here on the forum.

 

On 16.9.2017 at 10:52 PM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

We need solutions that arent nerfs.

And i would argue with you about fire ball being fine as is. Tempest barrage is the idea of how nice a one should be. For me. Hence the opposite opinion.

 

The problem is that you will not find a solution this way. It is a very strange mind set, while common in online games, it does not make any sense at all.

If you always balance upward, you would realistically also need to adjust the EHP and damage of NPCs, her abilities and rewards to keep the challenge comparable. DE did not do that and so you end up in a game that is fairly boring and can not really satisfy your desire to face a challenge as a player. We are currently stuck in a game where we have a L100 daily that hardly means anything and is for the most part just a patchwork of broken mechanics that people in generally just deal with by disabling the mechanic completely, hence leading to fairly non entertaining game play. On the flip side the same thing is fairly annoying if you get one shot killed by literally everything if you solo the same mission with Ember, while also not satisfying your urge as a damage frame player, since literally every halve way competent player with any frame can one shot stuff in the content with modern weapons, since it does not need good understand of weapon mechanics, massive damage buffs or clever use of status. This is exactly the expected outcome in a game where the community will complain that the game is to hard till it is playable semi afk without any effort and balancing stuff in it downwards should never be a option.

I main Ember since 2014 and played high level content back in the days completely without WoF, for the simple reason that you did lack the weapon damage for it outside of a negative duration build and that a 8s WoF that was prone to kill you during the cast animation at higher levels was not really appealing, beside of being a epic waste of energy and doing no damage compared to your weapons on top of it.

I do not see a issue with changing the way how WoF works at lower levels while playing Ember since years, so why do you think do you or other people here on the forums have them?

This is the 1-2 times a year case when you run into another Ember player that knows what he is doing(L80 secondary only sorti interception), this result has nothing to do with WoF damage(pre buff mara detron vs ak lex prime, so to speak a bit of a battle between old school status Ember vs newer crit based Ember approaches). For me it looks just like 2 well played damage frames, that do the same thing as other damage frames in the game at high levels and can archive that without WoF damage.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Djego27

[Seele]

This was a problem years ago and it's still a problem now. I don't think WOF should be changed because it's too good, but because it's too boring. Of all the mindless ways one can play Warframe, literally having the game play itself for you has to take the cake. I don't mind when someone who is actively engaging their keyboard and mouse outscores me or makes an exterminate entirely too fast and easy, but the Embers and macro melee slaves irk me. I digress.

Ember's is not the only ultimate/kit like this eiter. What Ember is to exterminate, Mesa, Hydroid, and Banshee are to defense. For an example of what right looks like in endless content, there's Nidus. He scales up like nobody's business, and his kit isn't difficult to use, but you have to actually press buttons, occasionally. He can be functionally invincible and one-hit level 80 eximus heavy gunners, but not without some player input. Meanwhile, high-level defense missions are usually Hydroid tentacles obliterating everything or Banshee chanelling her ultimate for the entire mission. I have even myself been the Mesa who only exits her ultimate to pick up orbs before the next wave.

I had taken a long, healthy break from Warframe a while back and am reacclimating now. One of my new acquaintances apparently does most of his farming literally away from his keyboard, i.e. while asleep. How does that represent the game? Why even play at that point?

 

TL;DR Warframe has become even more of a snooze-fest and needs to incentivize or mandate player input more than it does.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

8 hours ago, Djego27 said:

How so? I never considered mprime as bad, be it with a speed nova for farming stuff or a slow nova in higher level missions.

Or is your point that by the years of overpowered weapons, rivens, focus, far to easy to play and tanky frames nothing really is a challenge and buffs like 2x damage, 75% rof and speed reduction for NPCs is not needed or wanted because of this today?

This was a extra armor survival sorti in the kuva fortress at L100, that I did solo(like most of my sortis) to give somebody a opinion about what you can and not can do with Ember as damage frame and how trivial the hole thing in comparison is with Inaros(it basically boils down to press 1 and then the melee button for finishers on defenceless targets that die in a single hit, while for some reason it can present a challenge even with 8 times the EHP and the broken weapons of today).

This was from last year for a discussion where somebody wanted to explain me here on the forums that Saryn is a good melee frame and would not believe me when I told him that Saryn is barely better then Ember at it, what has mostly to do how you have to mod weapons on Ember and is largely equalized since the the accelerant augment. Turns out Saryn is not the best thing since sliced bread for melee if you do not relied on broken stealth + gas proc interaction, the EHP discussion was fairly pointless given that both get more or less one hit anyway(so same deal for both) when things slow a bit more down and obviously somebody that relied on shadow step can not see the point of my complain that spore does not have a CC component.

I would like to say that both are decently challenging, but they are actually not because because the amount of broken mechanics at higher levels are not really something that requires good understanding of the game or a lot of player skill, but simply how to completely bypass the mechanics(like invisibility or god mode against damage scaling), what makes discussion about frame and weapon balance unfortunately pointless with most people here on the forum.

 

The problem is that you will not find a solution this way. It is a very strange mind set, while common in online games, it does not make any sense at all.

If you always balance upward, you would realistically also need to adjust the EHP and damage of NPCs, her abilities and rewards to keep the challenge comparable. DE did not do that and so you end up in a game that is fairly boring and can not really satisfy your desire to face a challenge as a player. We are currently stuck in a game where we have a L100 daily that hardly means anything and is for the most part just a patchwork of broken mechanics that people in generally just deal with by disabling the mechanic completely, hence leading to fairly non entertaining game play. On the flip side the same thing is fairly annoying if you get one shot killed by literally everything if you solo the same mission with Ember, while also not satisfying your urge as a damage frame player, since literally every halve way competent player with any frame can one shot stuff in the content with modern weapons, since it does not need good understand of weapon mechanics, massive damage buffs or clever use of status. This is exactly the expected outcome in a game where the community will complain that the game is to hard till it is playable semi afk without any effort and balancing stuff in it downwards should never be a option.

I main Ember since 2014 and played high level content back in the days completely without WoF, for the simple reason that you did lack the weapon damage for it outside of a negative duration build and that a 8s WoF that was prone to kill you during the cast animation at higher levels was not really appealing, beside of being a epic waste of energy and doing no damage compared to your weapons on top of it.

I do not see a issue with changing the way how WoF works at lower levels while playing Ember since years, so why do you think do you or other people here on the forums have them?

This is the 1-2 times a year case when you run into another Ember player that knows what he is doing(L80 secondary only sorti interception), this result has nothing to do with WoF damage(pre buff mara detron vs ak lex prime, so to speak a bit of a battle between old school status Ember vs newer crit based Ember approaches). For me it looks just like 2 well played damage frames, that do the same thing as other damage frames in the game at high levels and can archive that without WoF damage.

yes.

I agree with your veiw points but cant delve into them because in working.

One thing i have to say though is that i think you can see the way people play the game by the suggestions they make.

I have seen suggestions for Embers world on fire that would make her more like banshee, where she loses her ability to use weapons, or also possibly some form of mobility...and i have seen suggestions that wish for wof to be more cc based, which if it was any more effective than it already is with fire quake, i can just imagine otd be just as annoying if not as game breakingly boring as molecular prime, where nothing can ever fight back.

Enemy scaling should be fixed, should have been, crowd control should never have been the solution for broken mechanics, it should not be more rewarding to a player to just sit in one spot and shoot stuff than if they wanted to run around the map.

Edited September 17, 2017 by (PS4)WINDMILEYNO
Edit

[el_chanis]

Ember's ult is only a problem if you are in such a low level mission that enemies will die even with a barely modded mk1-braton. Anything remotely challenging turns "World on Fire" in "Over average hot summer"

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

the way i see it, if the explosions where limited to particular ranges, there'd be less of a problem.

so say there are 3 separate repeating explosions (assuming unmodded range)
Explosion 1 can only target enemies 0-5m away
Explosion 2 can only target enemies 5-10m away
Explosion 3 can only target enemies 10-15m away

so that, instead of all enemies being immediately cooked at the outskirts of WOF's range groups of enemies are given the chance to close the gap (and your allies are given the chance to kill something)

[Xana_Skullsunder]

As someone who plays Ember, I wish her ult would change too. It's fun... for 5 minutes and then the realization that I've completely killed any engagement my teammates have sets in.

 

[Djego27]

On 17.9.2017 at 9:54 PM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

I have seen suggestions for Embers world on fire that would make her more like banshee, where she loses her ability to use weapons, or also possibly some form of mobility...and i have seen suggestions that wish for wof to be more cc based, which if it was any more effective than it already is with fire quake, i can just imagine otd be just as annoying if not as game breakingly boring as molecular prime, where nothing can ever fight back.

Well being static would only solve exterminate, does little to low level defence, interception, excavation etc. It also would make WoF like it was before the toggling changes something that you never use on higher levels.

WoF is actually quite CC focused with high power strength in combination with a status weapon(what I mostly use at high levels outside of infested). It should probably improved a bit given that it is fairly rng based(target selection and that you realistically will not have 100% status chance on it) and not really something that helps a newer player that much, one of the reasons why many people complain about the frame comes from that.

Is the high CC you can get out of WoF and a status weapon boring? Depends, in the end it is just your method of doing higher levels, given that Ember is by the way WoF works very close range focused and can't really take damage. Different to other things that give you insane EHP, damage reduction, god mode or invisibility it is however quite a bit bound to player skill. You can test that out with a Ember in survivals, where playing better mostly means the difference between doing 40 or 60 minutes solo(assuming you are able to match the damage check to keep up life support) where you will experience, like I did, that the biggest problem is mostly behind the monitor and has little to do with the frame(before getting one shot by nearly everything what leaves no room for bad rng and will make you run out of revives sooner then later).

On 17.9.2017 at 9:54 PM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Enemy scaling should be fixed, should have been, crowd control should never have been the solution for broken mechanics, it should not be more rewarding to a player to just sit in one spot and shoot stuff than if they wanted to run around the map.

Enemy damage scaling should be capped at around L100, outlines looked at(tech, toxic ancient, brusas ect) and tanks should go down to 5-7k EHP total, while also getting the damage reduced to less of damage frames(so Chroma does no longer 7 times the damage but would follow more the rino model where it is general below 2x damage what is a bit below damage frames in normal builds). Damage frames in return should lose her tanking abilities(scatter shield, hall of mirrors, eclipse or augments like assimilate) and tanks instead should be able to grab agro.

Beyond L100 or in challenging content(events, raids etc.) the game should instead of endless scaling enemy damage should randomly present penalties like the NM ones(except the 3x damage) or disabling 1-2 abilities at random for 5 minutes for a player to force people to improvise, what means cookie cutter team builds are far less effective(if you relied on something and lose it for 5 minutes). It also would help a lot of players to get out of the mind set that her frame only got one ability and that people have more reasons to play with each other. Armor should be additional HP bar, that still provides the current damage reduction but also takes normal damage and losing effectiveness by that.

On 17.9.2017 at 10:07 PM, el_chanis said:

Ember's ult is only a problem if you are in such a low level mission that enemies will die even with a barely modded mk1-braton. Anything remotely challenging turns "World on Fire" in "Over average hot summer"

Last time I checked assuming 200% power strength, WoF in combination with accelerant does 18k damage per hit if you count the dot and can hit 2-4.5 times per second. While it is a trivial amount all things considered for Ember it is more then most players do with her weapons, outside of broken ones.

[el_chanis]

43 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

 

Last time I checked assuming 200% power strength, WoF in combination with accelerant does 18k damage per hit if you count the dot and can hit 2-4.5 times per second. While it is a trivial amount all things considered for Ember it is more then most players do with her weapons, outside of broken ones.

The problem is that armor shut down the damage HARD. While the numbers are still high and indeed does a lot of damage TOTAL, is so spread among enemies that barely kills anyone. And its also the fact that keeping it for long with blind rage is quite hard (almost impossible). WoF is good as a perma CC with some damage attached, but single target damage has the advantage once we are over lvl 50.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

50 minutes ago, Djego27 said:

 

Beyond L100 or in challenging content(events, raids etc.) the game should instead of endless scaling enemy damage should randomly present penalties like the NM ones(except the 3x damage) or disabling 1-2 abilities at random for 5 minutes for a player to force people to improvise, what means cookie cutter team builds are far less effective(if you relied on something and lose it for 5 minutes). It also would help a lot of players to get out of the mind set that her frame only got one ability and that people have more reasons to play with each other. Armor should be additional HP bar, that still provides the current damage reduction but also takes normal damage and losing effectiveness by that.

.

I might be wrong, but the mindset that alot of frames only have one good ability seems to be based on truth for the most part.

Alot of frames have sub par kits, with abilities that flat out just dont do anything noticeably helpful past a certain point if at all. With DEs tight fisted energy econmoy, certain builds just dont work compared to others. It is much easier to mod for volt if you anticipate only using discharge and electric sheild. Its much easier to camp and rely on crowd control than it is to use shock and speed and fight on the go. Speed only lasts 10 seconds at base which makes it very difficult to improve on, and shock is basically discharge but smaller, shorter range, no tesla coils, and sometimes doesnt hit what you were aiming at or stun an enemy because that enemy was in the middle of another animation. Most frames have 1 or 2 good abilities. Take one away during a mission, and the player is just going to use the other one good ability in that kit or play with their weapons and some will fail and rage (i think taking away abilities is the opposute of fun gameplay)...no ones going to start relying on rip line or null star or fire ball.

Its almost as if these frames (especially older ones) are designed to be played just one way.

 

 

[Almagnus1]

WoF's going to be complete garbage in Plains of Eidolon... and if we move more towards open areas, WoF isn't going to be NEARLY as good as it somewhat is now.

WoF is fine, and all those saying it needs to change need to git gud and stop QQing about it.

[Nez-Kal]

If the Mods are doing their job, be prepared for this post to be Merged with the other one:
 

 

[Mattoropael]

On 9/16/2017 at 5:37 PM, (PS4)HSomDevil said:

People keep complaining about the strength of WoF while it's precisely what it lacks.

ikr? A damage ult that can't kill mid-late Starchart content reliably and people are all up in torches and pitchforks.

She's an overpriced frame (the Prime variant) with a very small niche purpose (clearing trash-tier content quickly without too much effort), and people keep saying she's overpowered

Pre-rework Mag with its sortie Corpus nuke was more "overpowered" FFS.

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Mattoropael

[Djego27]

On 21.9.2017 at 12:11 AM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

I might be wrong, but the mindset that alot of frames only have one good ability seems to be based on truth for the most part.

Alot of frames have sub par kits, with abilities that flat out just dont do anything noticeably helpful past a certain point if at all. With DEs tight fisted energy econmoy, certain builds just dont work compared to others. It is much easier to mod for volt if you anticipate only using discharge and electric sheild. Its much easier to camp and rely on crowd control than it is to use shock and speed and fight on the go. Speed only lasts 10 seconds at base which makes it very difficult to improve on, and shock is basically discharge but smaller, shorter range, no tesla coils, and sometimes doesnt hit what you were aiming at or stun an enemy because that enemy was in the middle of another animation. Most frames have 1 or 2 good abilities. Take one away during a mission, and the player is just going to use the other one good ability in that kit or play with their weapons and some will fail and rage (i think taking away abilities is the opposute of fun gameplay)...no ones going to start relying on rip line or null star or fire ball.

Its almost as if these frames (especially older ones) are designed to be played just one way.

 

 

The thing is most people only use one ability and never really tried what the rest actually does. You see that a lot with Loki or Rino for example, where people hardly use anything else. As for Volt, shock is usable during reloading and does not force you in a cast animation what is very useful at higher levels, speed is very good to move around if you play the game normally, ofc it will not useful for camping. Well what is wrong if people actually would try to play Valkyr with a melee weapon(back in the days only new players used Hysteria on Valkyre, given that it did not do any damage compared to melee with Valkyre), playing Ember without WoF(like I basically did all the time before the WoF changes at higher levels) or a Nova actually uses antimatter absorb for once in a public game? All this frames got abilities that are build around to be used with weapons and are hardly used at all? Is it not fun to use the weapons?

Btw animations overriding stun effects is a common thing to most CC abilities outside of the ones that hard CC.

 

On 21.9.2017 at 12:57 AM, Almagnus1 said:

WoF's going to be complete garbage in Plains of Eidolon... and if we move more towards open areas, WoF isn't going to be NEARLY as good as it somewhat is now.

Yeah lets rate WoF in content that nobody has played yet and most likely is just a thing for 2 weeks, like most of DEs stuff.

On 21.9.2017 at 12:57 AM, Almagnus1 said:

WoF is fine, and all those saying it needs to change need to git gud and stop QQing about it.

Oh yeah, lets get on the level of people that QQ here on the forum to justify the current WoF and announce they will stop playing Ember when it is changed, because pressing 4 is the only thing they can do with Ember.

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Djego27 said:

Oh yeah, lets get on the level of people that QQ here on the forum to justify the current WoF and announce they will stop playing Ember when it is changed, because pressing 4 is the only thing they can do with Ember.

Or maybe we've been around here long enough to know that DE misses as often as they hit with reworks, and the last thing anyone wants to see is Ember nerfed because a bunch of noobs crying on the forum can't comprehend that Ember is just fine as is.

And that also includes you because you've only ever played Ember, so you're expectations on what a "good" frame are are set so low that you're opinion is basically irrelevant to the discussion.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

3 hours ago, Djego27 said:

The thing is most people only use one ability and never really tried what the rest actually does. You see that a lot with Loki or Rino for example, where people hardly use anything else. As for Volt, shock is usable during reloading and does not force you in a cast animation what is very useful at higher levels, speed is very good to move around if you play the game normally, ofc it will not useful for camping. Well what is wrong if people actually would try to play Valkyr with a melee weapon(back in the days only new players used Hysteria on Valkyre, given that it did not do any damage compared to melee with Valkyre), playing Ember without WoF(like I basically did all the time before the WoF changes at higher levels) or a Nova actually uses antimatter absorb for once in a public game? All this frames got abilities that are build around to be used with weapons and are hardly used at all? Is it not fun to use the weapons?

Btw animations overriding stun effects is a common thing to most CC abilities outside of the ones that hard CC.

Maybe some frames take some skill to play...but that still doesnt account for all of the general uselessness that should be very apparentb even to someone who has put in a lot of time on a frame...

Warframe powers generally are lacking in someway or another, and are usually surpassed by weapons anyway, if they dont completely rely on them. For a while, i could only stand playing this game as a defy wukong. Dps means nothing in warframe, youll only ever accomplish something by using crowd control. So the next best thing was using a secure penta and not worrying about getting blown up or any kind of insta death. I can break my fingers in half trying to parkour as volt (speed and shock) or saryn, or i can relax and play defy wukong or sheild camper volt and use my penta without worry about anything.

Using shock while reloading and no casting animation is not a net positive in my eyes, nor is speeds mobility...the game simply becomes easier when you use electric sheild and discharge (or insert other generic cc abilities). The game simply becomes easier when you give in to the way its been designed for you to play by DE. We arent getting those enemy scaling fixes. This is the fix.

Crowd control is just an on and off switch for enemies. People are right now at this moment complaing that hydroids tentacles dont hold enemies still so that they can get easy headshots. This is not an action shooter anymore, if it ever was. Its a camping shooter. No matter what situation, volt specifically fairs better in a mission using those two "good" abilities. Speed is a really short melee buff if anything, and shock is something to cast while shooting just because....its only redeeming factor when compared to discharge is that it costs less energy...

I actually like hydroids rework, because its not focused on aoe cc, enemies still have a chance to fight back. I feel the puddle is not the best implementation of the idea, but overall the frame is nice. Tempest barrage is a first ability, yet people complain about it like its not one of the best first abilities in game...

What is iron jab bringing to the table for wukong? Thats not an issue of skill. I can poke people all day long and waste a mod slot on that sad excuse for an augment mod, but its still bad.

What does null star do for nova?

Who is fire ball?

What is soul punch?

Psychic bolts....ugh...

Why is spectral scream even a thing?

How does lantern really help titania when she has the same ability in aoe minus the distraction part that doesnt really work...

....how does tempest barrage upset people when this nonsense is what we have had to deal with and continue to deal with, and people still defend those things...

Not like this rant had much to do with anything, but i want to say that WOF is cc enough. If it needs to change, take away damage and increase its effectiveness when hitting enemies covered in accelerant, like miasma and spores.

 

[Andaius]

20 hours ago, el_chanis said:

The problem is that armor shut down the damage HARD. While the numbers are still high and indeed does a lot of damage TOTAL, is so spread among enemies that barely kills anyone. And its also the fact that keeping it for long with blind rage is quite hard (almost impossible). WoF is good as a perma CC with some damage attached, but single target damage has the advantage once we are over lvl 50.

yeah, You go from "always on" to 40 seconds or so. Thats IF you have max energy when you start and don't use any other abilities. As for the armor thing yeah, it does shut down heat damage hard. In an example on yet another Ember thread complaining about WoF My "always on" WoF deals 600 heat damage It only does something like 420 damage on level 20 Lancers and took 2 hits to kill them.

So yeah if you mod your Ember to that high Power your going to have like 1 fight worth of WoF and accelerant use.

[Almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Andaius said:

yeah, You go from "always on" to 40 seconds or so. Thats IF you have max energy when you start and don't use any other abilities. As for the armor thing yeah, it does shut down heat damage hard. In an example on yet another Ember thread complaining about WoF My "always on" WoF deals 600 heat damage It only does something like 420 damage on level 20 Lancers and took 2 hits to kill them.

So yeah if you mod your Ember to that high Power your going to have like 1 fight worth of WoF and accelerant use.

And that's exactly why I use Ember purely for farming purposes only.  A Grineer sortie means that WoF becomes the exceedingly useless Grineer armor warmer that keeps putting them to sleep.

[Djego27]

On 21.9.2017 at 10:18 AM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Warframe powers generally are lacking in someway or another, and are usually surpassed by weapons anyway, if they dont completely rely on them. For a while, i could only stand playing this game as a defy wukong. Dps means nothing in warframe, youll only ever accomplish something by using crowd control. So the next best thing was using a secure penta and not worrying about getting blown up or any kind of insta death. I can break my fingers in half trying to parkour as volt (speed and shock) or saryn, or i can relax and play defy wukong or sheild camper volt and use my penta without worry about anything.

Well the game does offer a lot of play styles. The question would be if it is satisfying for you to play it in a set way, even if you think that it is boring that way. The issue, that some things will always be much easier to a point where anybody can do it, because you simply disabling game mechanics and other things that require more thinking, planning and execution where you do not work your way around broken mechanics is significant harder is around for years in the game. The question would be how much the game should gather to one direction more(mostly by the not so good base mechanics) then the other. However Volt and Saryn do work to a certain point with interesting game play and you can play them as such with a bit of getting used to it. I do more or less the same with Ember, given I most likely would have stopped playing warframe(even if I do not play it a lot as a hole anyway this days) if this is all you can do.

However it does not has to be like this. There where changes to solo defence/survival in U17 that where just one point on the patch list that changed how NPCs spawn and attack that basically made the hold thing enjoyable without snow globe and stuff like this in a much more active and entertaining fashion.

I for myself liked the idea of the challenge missions DE did for a shot time. However it implementation was so bad(simply because no effort or thought was put into it to actually deliver a fair challenge) that it left the game as quick as it came into it. L100 melee only infested defence was fun with Ember and is something what is in my eyes entertaining. Being unable to hit weak spots of L100 juggernaut by the way how melee hit boxes work against weak spots(basically you hit a spot where the npc can take no damage first and your attack will be registered that way, even if you clearly also hit the weak spot with it) on the other is not and the only reason DE did not realize and fix that most likely that they never actually tested it. That is the main difference to the U17 change, that was incredible well crafted and most likely tested against more active play styles and adjusted to fit them.

On 21.9.2017 at 10:18 AM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Using shock while reloading and no casting animation is not a net positive in my eyes, nor is speeds mobility...the game simply becomes easier when you use electric sheild and discharge (or insert other generic cc abilities). The game simply becomes easier when you give in to the way its been designed for you to play by DE. We arent getting those enemy scaling fixes. This is the fix.

Crowd control is just an on and off switch for enemies. People are right now at this moment complaing that hydroids tentacles dont hold enemies still so that they can get easy headshots. This is not an action shooter anymore, if it ever was. Its a camping shooter. No matter what situation, volt specifically fairs better in a mission using those two "good" abilities. Speed is a really short melee buff if anything, and shock is something to cast while shooting just because....its only redeeming factor when compared to discharge is that it costs less energy...

To be fair a lot of the problems come from that the game is not really playable without that mechanics at higher levels and that should have been addressed a long time ago, especially when the "we never balanced around that levels" changed to "now that levels are in a daily quest". However that can be changed like DE did with Survival and Defence in U17 and could do with changes to scaling and core mechanics on a bigger scope. If you do not need perma hard CC, invisibility or god mode to succeed, the lack of them at times or adjustment to make this tool less powerful is not such a big thing and allows players to completely play without them, if you so chose because it is more fun to you form a player perspective.

On 21.9.2017 at 10:18 AM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

I actually like hydroids rework, because its not focused on aoe cc, enemies still have a chance to fight back. I feel the puddle is not the best implementation of the idea, but overall the frame is nice. Tempest barrage is a first ability, yet people complain about it like its not one of the best first abilities in game...

I to like Ember for the same reasons, even if everybody complains that WoF does not one hit stuff at higher levels and Ember is only useful at lower levels because of this.

On 21.9.2017 at 10:18 AM, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

What is iron jab bringing to the table for wukong? Thats not an issue of skill. I can poke people all day long and waste a mod slot on that sad excuse for an augment mod, but its still bad.

What does null star do for nova?

Who is fire ball?

What is soul punch?

Psychic bolts....ugh...

Why is spectral scream even a thing?

How does lantern really help titania when she has the same ability in aoe minus the distraction part that doesnt really work...

....how does tempest barrage upset people when this nonsense is what we have had to deal with and continue to deal with, and people still defend those things...

Not like this rant had much to do with anything, but i want to say that WOF is cc enough. If it needs to change, take away damage and increase its effectiveness when hitting enemies covered in accelerant, like miasma and spores.

 

Well Iron Jab can be used a soft CC like most 1 skills, however that is not so appealing on a frame that has god mode anyway.

Null star should proc blast, this means it is a soft CC against melee, what is actually not that bad on a speed nova.

Soul punch and fire ball can be used as soft CC as well and are useful as this at higher levels.

Psychic bolts was useful back in the days where you could not recast chaos as soft CC with the augment where it vastly improved how enjoyable Nyx was at higher levels. However it is not really that useful given that we have infinite energy now and just can double tab 4 for the knock down or use the assimilate to ignore the mechanics outright.

Spectra scream was always bad since it lacks utility features the other 1s got and Titania is overall just meh from the design point of view.

I do agree that WoF is enught CC as it is and it should probably go down in damage to be less of a map clearer at low levels.

Edited September 23, 2017 by Djego27

[NDarkstar]

No. Ash has already been wrecked and Equinox's damage output is crap in my hands. I have carpal tunnel and osteo arthritis. I used to be able to play Ash and Ember by turns. Now I have Ember or Ember or if I'm really looking for something low pain.. Ember. Her 4th turns to nothing at higher levels/longer endless missions. If you don't like her, play something else.

This means I am, in fact, quoting myself from another thread. I'd like to be able to play the game, too. Ash I can't play anymore, too many presses too much pain for too little reward. Simply put, I need Ember to stay the way she is. Stop screwing up the frames and cutting me out of Warframe. Don't like her, don't play her. Don't want her in your party, use the "Invite Only" or "Friends Only" group options.

[NDarkstar]

On 9/17/2017 at 1:52 PM, Seele said:

This was a problem years ago and it's still a problem now. I don't think WOF should be changed because it's too good, but because it's too boring. Of all the mindless ways one can play Warframe, literally having the game play itself for you has to take the cake. I don't mind when someone who is actively engaging their keyboard and mouse outscores me or makes an exterminate entirely too fast and easy, but the Embers and macro melee slaves irk me. I digress.

Ember's is not the only ultimate/kit like this eiter. What Ember is to exterminate, Mesa, Hydroid, and Banshee are to defense. For an example of what right looks like in endless content, there's Nidus. He scales up like nobody's business, and his kit isn't difficult to use, but you have to actually press buttons, occasionally. He can be functionally invincible and one-hit level 80 eximus heavy gunners, but not without some player input. Meanwhile, high-level defense missions are usually Hydroid tentacles obliterating everything or Banshee chanelling her ultimate for the entire mission. I have even myself been the Mesa who only exits her ultimate to pick up orbs before the next wave.

I had taken a long, healthy break from Warframe a while back and am reacclimating now. One of my new acquaintances apparently does most of his farming literally away from his keyboard, i.e. while asleep. How does that represent the game? Why even play at that point?

 

TL;DR Warframe has become even more of a snooze-fest and needs to incentivize or mandate player input more than it does.

I have to call BS on 'he farms while he sleeps'. I can't stop and scan stuff during a mission without getting an auto mission fail. I highly doubt your story.

[blueThunder24]

3 hours ago, NDarkstar said:

Ash I can't play anymore, too many presses too much pain for too little reward

You're just lazy. I won't repeat my response from another thread.
I like diversity so I don't have main frame, but my friend main Ash and we both love Ash rework! He is still deadly and interesting to play frame, with right build and weapons I can wreck hard sortie missions but I need to put some effort in this - and you may not believe but I feel very rewarded when using Ash.

WoF if not Ember herself just requires a deep rework, currently she is in similar position to old Ash, just boring and unrewarding.
Equinox too needs rework but not because of her Maim but becuase of locked diversity in playstyle due to her Metamorphosis breaking all active abilities.

Because of how unfun Ember is I rarely take her to any mission.
Of course I can cheese through missions in many ways and don't even need a broken frame for it - Amprex is enough to clear trash mobs but even it has some downsides like ammo consuption and I need put some effort in aiming.

Edited September 23, 2017 by blueThunder24

[NDarkstar]

Just now, blueThunder24 said:

You're just lazy. I won't repeat my response from another thread.
I like diversity so I don't have main frame, but my friend main Ash and we both love Ash rework! He is still deadly and interesting to play frame, with right build and weapons I can wreck hard sortie missions but I need to put some effort in this - and you may not believe but I feel very rewarder when using Ash.

WoF if not Ember herself just requires a deep rework, currently she is in similar position to old Ash, just boring and unrewarding.
Equinox too needs rework but not because of her Maim but becuase of locked diversity in playstyle due to her Metamorphosis breaking all active abilities.

Because of how unfun Ember is I rarely take her to any mission.
Of course I can cheese through missions in many ways and don't even need a broken frame for it - Amprex is enough to clear trash mobs but even it has some downsides like ammo consuption and I need put some effort in aiming.

Must be great to know everything about everyone all the time. Here, have the response again, since you insist on name-calling and straw men.

Wrong. Ash was a frame I could use without having to target every single bladestorm target. You might not have carpal tunnel or osteo arthritis, but I do. I can't play with him the way he is now. I can throw stars, which Nyx does better, I can go temporarily invis, which Loki does better, I can teleport.. which Loki does better. The Ash rework did nothing but take him off the table for me and I'm not alone with that. Two of my friends who mained Ash, won't touch him anymore. One quit over it. It has nothing to do with "lazy" and everything to do with pain and easy of play. Or are you going to go on about the rework to the control schemes that happened not too long ago with the express purpose of saving people's hands? I'm by no means alone in this either. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/3bplpq/anyone_else_have_pain_in_left_hand_fingers/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/6vprgu/question_do_any_of_you_get_eye_pain_nausia/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/6la0du/need_an_autohotkey_script/

These are just a few threads. Instead of assuming we're lazy, how about actually taking a look at the assertions being put forth.

[blueThunder24]

8 minutes ago, NDarkstar said:

Ash was a frame I could use without having to target every single bladestorm target.

You didn't play Ash after rework did you? It's still easy to target enemies, you just need to sweep your crosshair back and forth over enemies a few times and press 4 again.
I'm sorry but If you struggle to play any frame who doens't have afk like ability then maybe switch to some tank or support one or whatever.
I too have issues in playing, I have problems in focusing on objects (impacting my reaction times) and recognizing some color shades that's why I rarely use accurate weapons but I don't cry to change them so all of them would fit my capablities.

End of offtopic.

I have some ideas for Ember rework which I may post some later.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 16.09.2017 at 10:43 AM, ShogunNoir said:

This isn't anything that hasn't been said before, but the World on Fire ult really needs to be changed to a more interactive ultimate for Ember. Purely because of the people that abuse it's unholy range and power. 

If I'm in a public Fissure Extermination, instead of Warframe being the usual ninja-hack-and-slash-shoot-'em-up awesomeness, when a WoF Ember joins it turns into a hiking simulator where you collect 10 golden orbs from ashes and continue to the green arrow. It removes any fun from the Fissure missions because you're just following the Ember (or multiple Embers) in their wake of destruction.

And Interceptions; I came across an example where there were 3 WoF Embers all idling on a point with WoF active. I decided to leave in the end because I didn't much like the idea of waiting around for however many rounds those players want to play.

And I'm sure I'll draw the ire of the Meta community with such quality lines of 'If you don't like it then go Solo' or 'I haven't got time to go around killing enemies' and my favourite 'I only go public so that I can use other people's relics'  

But I don't see why I should have to go Solo. On the rare occasion that I want to join a team, I want to feel like I'm actually contributing, not following in their footsteps because I was foolish enough to expect to KILL something. (Being a Harrow main, this can prove especially problematic) And because it seems the only reason I'm here is to give the Meta player another relic to choose from.

That's my rant done, I'll leave you to your regularly scheduled program.  

 

Oi boi, now they start fighting over scraps of this non-existant gameplay. Ember wasn't a problem with endless missions. Ember is only a problem when there is no difficulty present in the mission - cause she doesn't scale at all otherwise. The fact that you have problems with ember is due to the poor mission design. Ember is just one of the warframes that have this kind of capability to kill enemies "passively".

Edited September 23, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Andaius]

6 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Oi boi, now they start fighting over scraps of this non-existant gameplay. Ember wasn't a problem with endless missions. Ember is only a problem when there is no difficulty present in the mission - cause she doesn't scale at all otherwise. The fact that you have problems with ember is due to the poor mission design. Ember is just one of the warframes that have this kind of capability to kill enemies "passively".

I wouldn't even call it "passively" It's short ranged (relatively shotgun range.) Randomly targets, So the Ember player must seek out enemies for them to be targeted and get close to them and stay close to them. If your team mates have weapons that are effective past 20 meters they can kill stuff just as fast as the Ember at low levels.