World on Fire, Again.

[Troll_Logic]

On 9/16/2017 at 3:43 AM, ShogunNoir said:

On the rare occasion that I want to join a team, I want to feel like I'm actually contributing, not following in their footsteps because I was foolish enough to expect to KILL something.

I love when someone does this.  I hate how almost every mission is a race to see who finishes first.

Someone brings WoF, or Saryn, or a Volt, or any other way to rush and kill everything, I just take it easy.  I check lockers.  I look for sculptures.  I open chests.  I take my time looking around the map.  Doesn't bother me a bit.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

On 23.09.2017 at 8:15 PM, Andaius said:

I wouldn't even call it "passively" It's short ranged (relatively shotgun range.) Randomly targets, So the Ember player must seek out enemies for them to be targeted and get close to them and stay close to them. If your team mates have weapons that are effective past 20 meters they can kill stuff just as fast as the Ember at low levels.

ehhh no. You're downplaying it quite a bit. Against low-lvl enemies ember is perfectly capable of wiping out the whole map as she parcours through it. Nobody will be able to keep up. But she's not the only warframe like that and it's just a problem of a bad mission design we have and the lack of scaling. Ember was always this braindead alert-frame when you didn't want to waste too much time playing a boring mission with low-lvl enemies. Unfortunately, now warframe doesn't have any other kind of missions, so ember has become a god.

[(XBOX)lotus503]

21 hours ago, Mgamer581 said:

Embers WoF is unengaging gameplay to the max. You say that her WoF can only hit 5 targets, but when actually put in practice, she kills everything around her because by the time she kills 5, its already targeted the next 5, it's not slow at all. You've been defending ember, rather horribly, on many of the forum posts that show that ember needs her 4th to be reworked, and honestly it's only a matter of time before it is reworked. If you SEE what all the previous nerfs for warframe were for, it's to do with you not being a team player, as Warframe has 4 player co-op, not 1 player and 3 carries co-op. You should help your team not simply go ahead and kill stuff by simply walking by them, You say all the others could move outside her range, but EMBER IS ON THE MOVE, they don't simply stand and wait for the mission to finish, they are dashing across the map. If you enjoy lazy gameplay good for you, but most of us here enjoy playing as a team and contributing to the mission. The points are completely off topic and I can't wait till the ember rework/nerf. 

Well be prepared to wait, long line of things in front of an ember rework. That and the fact people actually like playing he frame. 

[Andaius]

11 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

To start with, Avalanche locks you in place for a duration, you have to specifically cast it when you want it to deal a single set of damage, a single cast doesnt keep moving with you and dealing more damage, and if you just spam it nonstop as you move, it's going to cost vastly more than WoF per second and you also won't be going anywhere fast. It's nowhere near as easy to outkill players with Avalanche than it is with WoF. The only comparison it has with WoF is that it deals damage and has an effective range centred on the caster, which is the same for many, many abilities.

If you are running a mission the standard way, ie move directly to objective, then move directly the extraction, then WoF's range is made irrelevant as you run through groups of enemies that are blocking you. Normally you'd kill them then move through, with WoF you can just keep moving and they'll die if you don't feel like shooting them. There are tiles where enemies are a long distance away, but that's going to leave maybe one squad of enemies that aren't instakilled every 5-6 tiles, give or take. Not many. Yes, technically you could play WoF by not shooting and running up to guys (as before, I could get behind a WoF nerf where you aren't ALLOWED to shoot), but 90% of players just play normally and allow WoF to kill any enemies that happen to get close, usually out of LoS. If you play it normally you don't think about it.

Final note: yes, it only hits 5 targets at once, but that statistic is useless without the additional fact that its rate of fire is about 2-2.5 blasts a second per target. Effectively 10-15 blasts per second, with 5 separate things being targeted. It fires very fast when groups appear, which is most of the time in Warframe.

Avalanche stops you for like what a second or two? Yeah you activate it manually, but when you do you can kill more enemy then a WoF Ember at a time. Since WoF is "wasted" most of the time. Since the enemy spawns in waves usually.  So yeah I'd say your stopped up for as long as it would take an Ember to stick around to kill all a wave of enemy. You also have to take into account that if your going max range build it will take 2-3 of your 5  to kill one guy of level 15 or so.  Throwing your net so wide means more targets to random hit so less hits per target so longer it takes to randomly kill some one unless you get right up to them to get it to favor targeting closer guys.

As a matter of fact that was one of it's main weaknesses! With too wide a range you put yourself in danger because it could randomly target guys further away and lets closer guys get damage on you. You don't have that problem with Avalanche it just kills all targets in the range, same with all the other AoE abilities from other warframes.

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

ehhh no. You're downplaying it quite a bit. Against low-lvl enemies ember is perfectly capable of wiping out the whole map as she parcours through it. Nobody will be able to keep up. But she's not the only warframe like that and it's just a problem of a bad mission design we have and the lack of scaling. Ember was always this braindead alert-frame when you didn't want to waste too much time playing a boring mission with low-lvl enemies. Unfortunately, now warframe doesn't have any other kind of missions, so ember has become a god.

 

Not really, It's not really any faster then just having 2 guys with normal weapons do it with guns. (WoF + Ember shots whats still standing in front of her.) I'd say maybe you could clear them just as fast because if you use punch through or AoE weapons and are good at navigation while shooting you can kill waves of enemy in a second or 2.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Andaius

[TheLexiConArtist]

6 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Avalanche stops you for like what a second or two?

If you master the timing of bullet-jumping then aimgliding as you start the cast, you can still cover a bit of distance even while the animation plays out, so..not even that long.

[Andaius]

Indeed, I've seen Frosts seemingly not even be slowed down!

Edited September 26, 2017 by Andaius

[Genoscythe]

Hm, without ember WoF I fear I'd never even bother running relics again on capture/exterm. If you've done a mission a two thousand times over you simply want stuff to go fast, not make every mission something where you have to be fully concentrated and focused.

 

Ember makes low level play easier if you got the gear, and I think that's OK. And if you're good, you still can be faster than ember.

[DatDarkOne]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 8:54 AM, Soketsu said:

That why I said you can't understand. Perhaps with the right event/mission, and the right allies you may fully understand.

This reminded me of something.  Anyone else notice that no one ever complains about Ember in defection missions.  Hmmmmm.

[YUNoJump]

14 hours ago, --Q--Voltage said:

World on fire only kills fast in lower tier starchart. If you bring her to sorties here WoF doesn’t kill at all unless you have a weapon to help it along. Also, Many more frames have similar functions and are better than ember. We have Equinox and Octavia. Ember is not broken op, she is actually mediocre. If you are complaining someone takes your kills in a coop game, maybe you should be solo or play something else.

This thread hasn't just been about "is WoF OP", it's been about whether or not it's fun to play with/use, both for the Ember and for her teammates. She's not powerful at high levels, but at low levels she's annoying as hell, and there's no fun to be had in using WoF. People still deserve to have fun in low level missions, whether they're actually low level, or if they're just a high level player running a low level mission for something like a Lith relic. High-level isn't the only important part of the game.

[YUNoJump]

5 hours ago, Andaius said:

Avalanche stops you for like what a second or two? Yeah you activate it manually, but when you do you can kill more enemy then a WoF Ember at a time. Since WoF is "wasted" most of the time. Since the enemy spawns in waves usually.  So yeah I'd say your stopped up for as long as it would take an Ember to stick around to kill all a wave of enemy. You also have to take into account that if your going max range build it will take 2-3 of your 5  to kill one guy of level 15 or so.  Throwing your net so wide means more targets to random hit so less hits per target so longer it takes to randomly kill some one unless you get right up to them to get it to favor targeting closer guys.

As a matter of fact that was one of it's main weaknesses! With too wide a range you put yourself in danger because it could randomly target guys further away and lets closer guys get damage on you. You don't have that problem with Avalanche it just kills all targets in the range, same with all the other AoE abilities from other warframes.

Being stopped for a second or two every 10-20m is a massive slow compared to endless bullet jumping and parkour, Warframe is fast-paced like that. If you try and cast Avalanche on every group of enemies you come across, your teammates will run past you as you cast it, and they will get plenty of time to kill enemies up ahead while you catch up.

It technically does better damage than WoF, but WoF does damage without requiring the player to think or slow down at all, and that's the problem. Most other big nerfs have followed this pattern; Simulor allowed you to spam in front of you and blast everything, Tonkor allowed you to blast away massive damage at any range, Bladestorm allowed you to press 4 and prevent alll your teammates from even damaging a squad while you kill them. Note that powerful stuff that requires actual thought, like the Tigris series, the Soma Prime and the Boltor Prime have never really been touched; because you still have to aim and fire. WoF doesn't require that level of thought.

[Andaius]

10 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Being stopped for a second or two every 10-20m is a massive slow compared to endless bullet jumping and parkour, Warframe is fast-paced like that. If you try and cast Avalanche on every group of enemies you come across, your teammates will run past you as you cast it, and they will get plenty of time to kill enemies up ahead while you catch up.

It technically does better damage than WoF, but WoF does damage without requiring the player to think or slow down at all, and that's the problem. Most other big nerfs have followed this pattern; Simulor allowed you to spam in front of you and blast everything, Tonkor allowed you to blast away massive damage at any range, Bladestorm allowed you to press 4 and prevent alll your teammates from even damaging a squad while you kill them. Note that powerful stuff that requires actual thought, like the Tigris series, the Soma Prime and the Boltor Prime have never really been touched; because you still have to aim and fire. WoF doesn't require that level of thought.

Not really, Most of the time WoF isn't hitting anyone, you skip that with my example. Plus like it's been mentioned previously, casting avalanche doesn't completely halt your motion so you can get going with a bullet jump right away. Plus if your team is so close to you that they can overtake you and kill everything before you can get going again they can do the same thing with WoF. Ignis, Amprex, hell even hikou with covert explosives can murderize rooms of low level mooks faster then WoF!

Edited September 27, 2017 by Andaius

[YUNoJump]

34 minutes ago, Andaius said:

Not really, Most of the time WoF isn't hitting anyone, you skip that with my example. Plus like it's been mentioned previously, casting avalanche doesn't completely halt your motion so you can get going with a bullet jump right away. Plus if your team is so close to you that they can overtake you and kill everything before you can get going again they can do the same thing with WoF. Ignis, Amprex, hell even hikou with covert explosives can murderize rooms of low level mooks faster then WoF!

When WoF isn't hitting anyone there's no enemies around, but Warframe spawns enough enemies that an empty room is rare when you're moving towards the objective. if you keep moving you're not going to lose much energy to empty rooms. Avalanche might not completely stop you, but if it slows you at all, you're moving slower than a WoF user/standard player, putting you behind by default. It's also worth noting that Frost himself moves slower than most other frames, especially Ember. 

Ignis, hikou, even Amprex to a degree require you to actually aim at least near enemies. On top of that, all of those weapons have problematic ammo economy; if you hold down their triggers for a whole mission indiscriminately, you'll run out of ammo halfway through. They also have to reload, and they can't hit targets outside of your field of view. On top of that they can't hit enemies through walls for the most part, and they certainly can't directly target and kill enemies outside of LoS; you have to at least be firing in a direction that just happens to have an enemy behind a wall. Overall they don't require as much interaction as a standard gun, but you at least have to aim somewhat near the enemies and manage ammo. WoF has none of that except for energy, which doesn't run out anywhere near as fast.

[Voltage]

1 hour ago, YUNoJump said:

This thread hasn't just been about "is WoF OP", it's been about whether or not it's fun to play with/use, both for the Ember and for her teammates. She's not powerful at high levels, but at low levels she's annoying as hell, and there's no fun to be had in using WoF. People still deserve to have fun in low level missions, whether they're actually low level, or if they're just a high level player running a low level mission for something like a Lith relic. High-level isn't the only important part of the game.

If you read my post I explain many frames do a similar thing but are much better at it. You can’t say “just nerf ember” for annoyance purposes because then saryn/octavia/equinox/AnotherAoEFrame will be on the board as well. Just leave it the way it is. If you don’t like ember for WOF, there are plenty of other ways to play ember, and likewise, if you don’t like playing with Ember, play solo or with certain people. 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

11 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

I love when someone does this.  I hate how almost every mission is a race to see who finishes first.

Someone brings WoF, or Saryn, or a Volt, or any other way to rush and kill everything, I just take it easy.  I check lockers.  I look for sculptures.  I open chests.  I take my time looking around the map.  Doesn't bother me a bit.

I used to love this too especially with Mirage Simulor. I used to love watching them race towards the end, get downed because they're squishy and tbag. 

I personally like having a Warframe that can squash low level content because sometime you get tired of grinding and want to rush through trivial content. Sometimes I want to use Ignis and look for medallions and sculptures without the concern of infinite enemies shooting me. 

[Kaminarion]

DE should boost Ember. WoF doesn't always do fire dmg for some reason so accelerant don't work as intended. Fireballs are meh. Arena fire also meh cause it is weaker than WoF. She can't do much at high lvls that's so unfair. I love Ember :'(

Growing power when in alerts!

[Andaius]

19 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

When WoF isn't hitting anyone there's no enemies around, but Warframe spawns enough enemies that an empty room is rare when you're moving towards the objective. if you keep moving you're not going to lose much energy to empty rooms. Avalanche might not completely stop you, but if it slows you at all, you're moving slower than a WoF user/standard player, putting you behind by default. It's also worth noting that Frost himself moves slower than most other frames, especially Ember. 

Ignis, hikou, even Amprex to a degree require you to actually aim at least near enemies. On top of that, all of those weapons have problematic ammo economy; if you hold down their triggers for a whole mission indiscriminately, you'll run out of ammo halfway through. They also have to reload, and they can't hit targets outside of your field of view. On top of that they can't hit enemies through walls for the most part, and they certainly can't directly target and kill enemies outside of LoS; you have to at least be firing in a direction that just happens to have an enemy behind a wall. Overall they don't require as much interaction as a standard gun, but you at least have to aim somewhat near the enemies and manage ammo. WoF has none of that except for energy, which doesn't run out anywhere near as fast.

Wrong again! With a carrier, you won't run out of ammo! Also yes they can kill people out of LoS ignis can go through doors, so can explosions!

[el_chanis]

22 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

This thread hasn't just been about "is WoF OP", it's been about whether or not it's fun to play with/use, both for the Ember and for her teammates. She's not powerful at high levels, but at low levels she's annoying as hell, and there's no fun to be had in using WoF. People still deserve to have fun in low level missions, whether they're actually low level, or if they're just a high level player running a low level mission for something like a Lith relic. High-level isn't the only important part of the game.

full efficency+range rhino is far stronger and abusive than ember. The lack of target limit and the insane range can whipe out HUGE chunks of the entire tileset in a single stomp. Nova can take pretty much 90% of the kills thanks to the prime explosion, were you only kill 1 and she takes the rest, from the other side of the map, she don't even need to be there. Frost. Saryn, Equinox. Now even Oberon can completly ruin your low-level expirence by your incredibly low standard, he just have to run around covering the map with his 2. You will be lucky if an enemy comes close to you.

High level might not be the only important part of the game, but its BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT. So if you spend your time trying to force the game into a balance that never was intended to be (thats why we have sorties, my young padawan), then you are in for a very frustrating and unproductive long time. You want to use your guns and develop your warframe playstyle? Level up, i assure you, you will have plenty of time to shoot those lvl80 heavy gunners and bombards, even prod crewman will resist WoF. The entire game is designed for that, for you to level up.

[DatDarkOne]

4 minutes ago, el_chanis said:

full efficency+range rhino is far stronger and abusive than ember. The lack of target limit and the insane range can whipe out HUGE chunks of the entire tileset in a single stomp. Nova can take pretty much 90% of the kills thanks to the prime explosion, were you only kill 1 and she takes the rest, from the other side of the map, she don't even need to be there. Frost. Saryn, Equinox. Now even Oberon can completly ruin your low-level expirence by your incredibly low standard, he just have to run around covering the map with his 2. You will be lucky if an enemy comes close to you.

You left out anyone using a weapon with Synd Proc.  :D

[Andaius]

5 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

You left out anyone using a weapon with Synd Proc.  :D

I would say building up the proc would take too long and could proc at the "wrong time" and not get much.

[DatDarkOne]

1 minute ago, Andaius said:

I would say building up the proc would take too long and could proc at the "wrong time" and not get much.

It's not as hard to steal kills with synd procs on lower levels as you might be thinking.  A Gas build Supra Vandal with Entropy Burst doesn't have any problems doing this.  This is not to say anyone should do this to lower level players, but it's another method that can be just as annoying to players as WoF is to some.  

[YandereWaifu]

On 9/16/2017 at 5:37 AM, CephalonNiksyn said:

Okay, can I get some ETA on when these Ember haters will stop whining about how they don't get they kills because of some Ember and how it is annoying? BTW, it is not.

These threads are boring as hell. Ember won't be changed, deal with it. If DE rework Ember, people start complaining about Equinox and her ult. If Equinox is nerfed, they'll get to Mesa and her Peacemakers. If Mesa is nerfed, then next is Titania and her Dex Pixia/Divata.

 

Please, stop.

 

bad spot to mention titania as she cant nuke a room like ember and the like, a better choice may have been saryn or nezha or rhino tbh also while i do get what you are saying, honestly its not really your position to say for certain if it is or isnt annoying as thats subjective, meaning for you it may not be but for others it definitly is. frankly i can see how it can be annoying though i myself use ember sometimes although i dont go for excessive amounts of range (stretch is more than enough for a low level mission imo) personally as a way to counteract the annoyance WOF can cause.

 

[DatDarkOne]

2 minutes ago, YandereWaifu said:

bad spot to mention titania as she cant nuke a room like ember

Actually a high power strength Titania in RW can kill all nearby enemies (low levels) with just her butterflies only and not doing anything else.  I did this a few times just to see just how effective those little guys were.  While not as fast at killing whole areas as some other frame powers they still do a very good job at it.  

7 minutes ago, YandereWaifu said:

frankly i can see how it can be annoying though i myself use ember sometimes although i dont go for excessive amounts of range (stretch is more than enough for a low level mission imo) personally as a way to counteract the annoyance WOF can cause.

I do this myself.  I also use Flash Accelerant more in those situations just to be more a team player.  

[YandereWaifu]

4 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Actually a high power strength Titania in RW can kill all nearby enemies (low levels) with just her butterflies only and not doing anything else.  I did this a few times just to see just how effective those little guys were.  While not as fast at killing whole areas as some other frame powers they still do a very good job at it.  

I do this myself.  I also use Flash Accelerant more in those situations just to be more a team player.  

yea i see what you mean but like you said others do it faster and yea i do the same thing with flash accelerant XD

[Lukkiete]

10 hours ago, YandereWaifu said:

bad spot to mention titania as she cant nuke a room like ember and the like, a better choice may have been saryn or nezha or rhino tbh also while i do get what you are saying, honestly its not really your position to say for certain if it is or isnt annoying as thats subjective, meaning for you it may not be but for others it definitly is. frankly i can see how it can be annoying though i myself use ember sometimes although i dont go for excessive amounts of range (stretch is more than enough for a low level mission imo) personally as a way to counteract the annoyance WOF can cause.

 

What I meant was, if Ember nad the rest is nerfed, some would definitely complain how Titania can dish out a lots of damage and how can't anyone get kills because of her nuking very fast.

 

[DeckChairVonBananaCamel]

53 minutes ago, CephalonNiksyn said:

What I meant was, if Ember nad the rest is nerfed, some would definitely complain how Titania can dish out a lots of damage and how can't anyone get kills because of her nuking very fast.

 

you mean the "nuking" from her razorwing? .. the nuking that is essentially equal to someone with a powerful weapon, but tiny and flying?

something tells me people wouldn't complain all that much about an ability that requires as much effort as just shooting the enemy, and is only equal to (in most cases worse) than the top-tier guns.