Should passive energy regeneration be a norm for our Warframes? (Like Archwing)

[RX-3DR]

14 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but passive energy regen was in the game for more than a year now. It's called EO and it's one of the most used focus abilities, but the gameplay not only did not slow down, but on the contrary, it sped it up enabling ppl to use their warframe abilities more often, not having to sit on a pizza to fill their energy bar up, or wait for trinity to EV. So I cannot see your concern that players would slow down at all.

Do you have any other concern for the health of the game in case passive regen would be implemented? Because I still do not see any.

Focus abilities are locked behind a fairly long progression that the people unlocking them are quite far beyond the start. People made a conscious decision to use it and the effect is abnormally large as well. For more experienced players, we know our limits better which is why it causes less of an impact but for a newer player, the temptation to just wait for 100 energy for assurance is a lot stronger. This is going to a bigger problem if we're looking at a smaller regeneration rate.

P.S. We're already seeing one of the other problems with it which is that it is being mistaken as an absolute necessity already.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Flandyrll

[Nirrel]

Just now, Flandyrll said:

Focus abilities are locked behind a fairly long progression that the people unlocking them are quite far beyond the start. People made a conscious decision to use it and the effect is abnormally large as well. For more experienced players, we know our limits better which is why it causes less of an impact but for a newer player, the temptation to just wait for 100 energy for assurance is a lot stronger. This is going to a bigger problem if we're looking at a smaller regeneration rate.

Doesn't matter how long it takes to unlock it, it's irrilevant for your "concern". Once it's unlocked you have it and players who use it does not slowed down their gameplay. All of them already proved that this specific concern of yours isn't justified. Newer players have access to energy siphon, wich let's be honest it's pretty insufficient, but I do not see newer player waiting for energy siphon to fill their energy bar up in the first room for ages...So I still don't think that your concern is concerning at all.

[TaylorsContraction]

14 hours ago, Cifrer said:

I've literally never used Energy Overflow.  Don't even have it,, never bothered unlocking Zenurik.

What exactly is so special about it?  What is it that makes people feel that it's mandatory to have?

It is not mandatory by any stretch, but it opened an alternative for frames who cannot take advantage of Rage (because not all frames can take hits), in gaining energy consistently. Not even going to talk about equilibirum, this mod only works with Nekros. I ran it for weeks at some point testing it out, it is useless because health orbs are extremely rare. Energy siphon is rather inadequate in comparison to energy overflow. I happen to be a player who doesn't like to use pizzas, and before energy overflow I almost always was energy starved unless in a premade group with a trinity. Having energy to use abilities isn't a bad thing in the game, as for resource management, there's not a whole lot of that either. You either spam pizzas, have ev trin, or just not have enough energy.

We're not talking about star chart missions, but those sweet 1 hour survival relic farms or sorties or kuva floods. In those missions not having energy on squish frames generally spells instant doom because their abilities ARE their main line of defense.

[Nirrel]

14 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

P.S. We're already seeing one of the other problems with it which is that it is being mistaken as an absolute necessity already.

It's not a question of absolute necessity, but it does make the game more dynamic, more fun, it does make interesting/different builds avaible, gives more survivabilty to squishy frames on very high level missions wich makes them more viable/fun to play and so on....And because ppl play videogames to have fun I see it as a positive thing.

So why not? EO as I can see it just added to the gameplay and took away nothing from it. So passive regen in my opinion is a good thing to have in the game as it is right now.

I still have to see a valid point against it.

 

[whattheactual]

The game is not fun for me without passive energy regen, even before focus existed I always used and continue to use energy syphon aura the ~200 secs before Zenuric kicks in suck.

 

On 9/17/2017 at 2:17 PM, DualParadox said:

Yeah, we have like broken scepter and stuff. And the problem is that players don't know how to manage their energy. :))))

This is not fun for me personally if I wanted to micro manage I would play a strategy game not an action fast paced game.

As for energy pads + broken scepters anything that breaks the flow of combat is bad game design and a crutch imo.

Edited September 20, 2017 by whattheactual

[(PSN)supersocc11]

energy pads guys. so easy and cheap to build. so useful. 

[fatpig84]

May I understand why people are so adverse in using pizzas ?
If you want power, but don't want a trinity, then well pay for it!

It is not like you folks are in a resource drought or credit drought for the matter of fact (when I started there was no tutorial that gave you moar credits) 
Resources were more scarce before but it did not stop people from dropping pizzas literally everywhere when they need it. Heck folks dropped 2 to 3 pizzas at a go to speed up gain. And we never had primed flow back then.

So do tell why are folks nowadays so "investment adverse" ?
 

Edited September 20, 2017 by fatpig84

[TaylorsContraction]

21 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

May I understand why people are so adverse in using pizzas ?
If you want power, but don't want a trinity, then well pay for it!

It is not like you folks are in a resource drought or credit drought for the matter of fact (when I started there was no tutorial that gave you moar credits) 
Resources were more scarce before but it did not stop people from dropping pizzas literally everywhere when they need it. Heck folks dropped 2 to 3 pizzas at a go to speed up gain. And we never had primed flow back then.

So do tell why are folks nowadays so "investment adverse" ?
 

This is often asked and here is my response to your question from a different thread from ages ago.

It's not really a double morality (to refuse to use pizzas but accept other forms of energy recover),  but a specific mentality.

Generally games go in one of three directions.  First,  healing is entirely done through the player via healing spells,  potions or life steal. Second,  players have no access to healing other than through enemy drops, and lastly some combination of the two.

Everyone who starts warframe plays through the first kind.  Only source of health and energy are the orbs dropped from enemies, containers and lockers.  It's not until much later that they get a frame with healing (typically oberon).  Even later still life strike,  Trinity and most likely medi ray after all that.

Keep in mind that aside from Trinity while there are new sources of health recovery,  energy is still rare unless you play Trinity (or now Harrow).

Eventually sometime after that they'll get potions (pizzas).  So after playing for so long without potions everyone assumes the game is meant to be playable without them.  Hence you see people complaining about poor energy economy.  Unlocking the zeurik passive of probably the last energy source players gain access to.  Warframe is by far the stingiest game ever when it comes to mana economy.  Most game offer some passive energy regen for spell heavy games,  warframe Is definitely an exception to the rule in that respect.

[letir]

8 minutes ago, fatpig84 said:

May I understand why people are so adverse in using pizzas ?
If you want power, but don't want a trinity, then well pay for it!

Pad's require to stand on them. It's not working well with Warframe gameplay.

[Kinetos]

1 hour ago, letir said:

Pad's require to stand on them. It's not working well with Warframe gameplay.

This, and I don't think consumables should be necessary. If a fight literally cannot be done without them, the fight is broken. If it is reasonable to expect to be able to beat it, but you have to use consumables, it's incentive to improve your gear or whatever.

In other games, I hate to use them because I might get used to using them, and then run out at a critical time. But in Warframe there's not even a scarcity problem, you can flood yourself with them if you want to which imho they cheapen the feeling of accomplishment. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Kinetos

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

May I understand why people are so adverse in using pizzas ?
If you want power, but don't want a trinity, then well pay for it!

It is not like you folks are in a resource drought or credit drought for the matter of fact (when I started there was no tutorial that gave you moar credits) 
Resources were more scarce before but it did not stop people from dropping pizzas literally everywhere when they need it. Heck folks dropped 2 to 3 pizzas at a go to speed up gain. And we never had primed flow back then.

So do tell why are folks nowadays so "investment adverse" ?
 

...That about says it all.

 

[Nirrel]

3 hours ago, fatpig84 said:

May I understand why people are so adverse in using pizzas ?
If you want power, but don't want a trinity, then well pay for it!

It is not like you folks are in a resource drought or credit drought for the matter of fact (when I started there was no tutorial that gave you moar credits) 
Resources were more scarce before but it did not stop people from dropping pizzas literally everywhere when they need it. Heck folks dropped 2 to 3 pizzas at a go to speed up gain. And we never had primed flow back then.

So do tell why are folks nowadays so "investment adverse" ?
 

It's obviosly not the investment. If you read the thread then you will understand that. Of course you can use pizzas. I have so many resources that I could craft millions of them. And then there is energize and DE already said that they will provide us with something in exchange of EO. However many of us wonders why not just give frames some energy regen and if somebody needs more still can get more through different avenues like pizzas and arcanes. It's not that using EO ppl sometimes didn't drop down a pizza in dire need. But that what pizzas should be : limited number for the dire need, not a necessity. Players who have no access to arcanes or hundred tousands of polymer bundles still should be able to have access to energy and not only through RNG balls in my opinion.

More to the point what is ppl problem who are so much against it. EO did make the game more enjoyable and more varied as builds goes and still nobody came up with a valid reason why not have it as passive on our frames even if with less energy return as EO was.

[HowlAtTheMoon]

I wouldn't be so disgusted at the suggestion of using restore pads if restore pads could be hooked up to a Hotkey (such as Mouse Key 5) as opposed to that absolutely and utterly miserable Q-wheel.

 

EDIT: For a game that is trying to "be all about skill" (fun fact: it isn't) the lack of useful hotkeys is shameful.

Edited September 20, 2017 by HowlAtTheMoon

[Rhundis]

Yes.

 

Drops Mic.

[Rhundis]

9 minutes ago, HowlAtTheMoon said:

I wouldn't be so disgusted at the suggestion of using restore pads if restore pads could be hooked up to a Hotkey (such as Mouse Key 5) as opposed to that absolutely and utterly miserable Q-wheel.

 

EDIT: For a game that is trying to "be all about skill" (fun fact: it isn't) the lack of useful hotkeys is shameful.

You do know that that "Utterly Miserable Q-Wheel" can have its positions set to separate "Hot Keys" in the controller settings tab right?

[Nirrel]

7 minutes ago, HowlAtTheMoon said:

I wouldn't be so disgusted at the suggestion of using restore pads if restore pads could be hooked up to a Hotkey (such as Mouse Key 5) as opposed to that absolutely and utterly miserable Q-wheel.

 

EDIT: For a game that is trying to "be all about skill" (fun fact: it isn't) the lack of useful hotkeys is shameful.

Dunno about mouse buttons, but definitely you can bind gear items in settings/costumize keybindings/ gearhotkey x

[RX-3DR]

7 hours ago, Nirrel said:

Doesn't matter how long it takes to unlock it, it's irrilevant for your "concern". Once it's unlocked you have it and players who use it does not slowed down their gameplay. All of them already proved that this specific concern of yours isn't justified. Newer players have access to energy siphon, wich let's be honest it's pretty insufficient, but I do not see newer player waiting for energy siphon to fill their energy bar up in the first room for ages...So I still don't think that your concern is concerning at all.

Only because we're looking at 4E/s and Energy Siphon which are two somewhat extreme cases. One makes no attempt to maintain any semblance of balance and the other is almost inconsequential. It's not even that accessible to new players since it's tied to random chance with alerts and being able to even get there. Rates in between only provides incentive to wait for energy.

On the current system, new players will understand that energy is a commodity and that it needs to be managed. Adding passive energy regeneration can create bad habits since we're seeing a distaste to use Energy Restores and people finding ways to cheese out the game constantly. Implementing it only to find pointless return at creating the risk of more problems would still be very troublesome to remove with all the backlash when anything changes.

[letir]

2 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

Only because we're looking at 4E/s and Energy Siphon which are two somewhat extreme cases. One makes no attempt to maintain any semblance of balance and the other is almost inconsequential. It's not even that accessible to new players since it's tied to random chance with alerts and being able to even get there. Rates in between only provides incentive to wait for energy.

On the current system, new players will understand that energy is a commodity and that it needs to be managed. Adding passive energy regeneration can create bad habits since we're seeing a distaste to use Energy Restores and people finding ways to cheese out the game constantly. Implementing it only to find pointless return at creating the risk of more problems would still be very troublesome to remove with all the backlash when anything changes.

First, Energy Regeneration don't provide any detriemntal iniciative. Stop pushing unproven things like matter of fact.

Second, you cannot manage energy, if you don't have any means for Energy Regeneration. This dosen't teach new players anything, it punish them with energy hunger and restrict abilities usage.

Third, we don't have any "super troublesome problems" right now, despite EO.

[(PSN)Z_GrateWhiteFox]

I think it would be a nice touch if they added it in, but, only after you finish the second dream to represent your tenno becoming stronger.

[fatpig84]

8 hours ago, HowlAtTheMoon said:

I wouldn't be so disgusted at the suggestion of using restore pads if restore pads could be hooked up to a Hotkey (such as Mouse Key 5) as opposed to that absolutely and utterly miserable Q-wheel.

 

EDIT: For a game that is trying to "be all about skill" (fun fact: it isn't) the lack of useful hotkeys is shameful.

 

You mean you don't know how to hot key ?
I hot key my scanner to my N button on the keyboard all the time for example.
Since N reminds me of night vision googles so I just hotkey my scanner to N.
This is really a get good issue.

I can literally toss like 3 to 4 pizzas in 2 secs.
In fact the PC version of WF is still the best, because I can hot key everything in my inventory and just toss em out.
 

Edited September 21, 2017 by fatpig84

[Sziklamester]

I am agreeing with the needs of passive energy and hp regen because that should have been in the game at the beginning. The game evolved a lot and there are many type of things which could take our energy and hp in no time. The naysayers seems just say no because they doesn't like the balance for other players and their balance suggestion is if I can do you can do. The pizzas are stationary things and those are not viable things in the first place and breaks the game flow. Of course not every time you move so you canstand for some secs to drop a pizzas but that is just an annoyance.

Myself not using pizzas at all and I can manage my energy and hp balance with the equilibrium but that is true the health orb drop is awful. Also in any normal game there is some regeneration because that is not a privilege it is a common ability. I can use example the real life because if you cut yourself you regenerate just as how in games you do. Warframe designed in this part badly and force the hard try don't get hit and you'll be fine mentality just like how peoples against some armor boost on squishy frames because the universal answer the "git gud". A quality of life change should not be a big thing in this game and in this community but there are always peoples whom are against any racial solutions and qol changes just because they feel the game will be unbalanced and EZ.

I guess you guys not made any math how the numbers will goes firstly, secondly what makes the game EZ if there are much differ things in game which broken and still noone cry abut it?

The passive regen, vacuum, armor boost on low armored frames is not a privilege and not ruining anything. First of all that is the broken thing these are not in game normally implemented.

1 energy per sec is not break the game. 3-5 hp per sec not ruin the game. Passive warframe vacuum not breaks the game because still you need to move to get your loot. An 5 meter vacuum is fine for me because then i can take the drops which fall out of collectable region and this is necessary until the devs not fix their old maps. Also a passive vacuum can solve the first major problems and differences between sentinels and pets because if the vacuum changed to warframe passive then you can go both pets and sentinels. After that they can fix both companion family AI then get rid the dna degradation from the pets because that is also a silly built in game design. If they like the realism then with this power we could have passive regen which could balance the energy - hp on a certain level and still not make obsolete the energy maker frames, healer frames and any other mod which gives you something. This highly open the options for the players because you can get to rid some mandatory mods on your build if you not want them.

The naysayers still not said any valid point or not explained what their problem with this beyond that they are hardtries and they hate casuals.

I am not using at all any focus school because for me not interesting and I can hardly manage my energy-hp baalnce but this mean I need to use one of the mandatory mods because of it.

Did you guys tried to play without mods on your weapons and on your frames? I guess no because if you do then you realise that how hard the game without flow, streamline, intensify, vigor etc. Then you meet on wave 15-20 an eximus unit and your energy is out no matter how good player you are if you haven't mods on items and frame then you cannot go far. So all the passive energy - hp regen is a valid point because we measure this to the total modless frames and weapons and if you do this then you can see how weak we are in the reality. Most of the frames have 150 energy at max rank so you cannot spam your abilities mindlesly and if you take out any mods then you cannot convert energy into hp.

The main problem is all of you guys using mods and some are broken but you still measure things to the broken ones and not to the original. If you are playing with no mods then you testing the true limits of what a frame can do. Then a Limbo win, because he have passive energy regen in rift then cataclysm can generat energy so he ultimately survive the higher levels until not got a hit. Nidus can regen his hp but if he losing any energy orbs and option to kill hordes then he cannot make stacks. Octavia only can make energy if she have enough energy to use abilities so basically she need to spend energy to gain energy "no pain no gain".

Other frames not mentionned because these nor have energy nor have hp regen so basically nobody can pass the wave 20-30 because if you have no mods and no have any energy - hp regen then you basically dead. You can't git gud if you have no life strike, EQ, Rage but those naysayers never played without these mods.

Until the devs not fix the hp drops and energy drops to be balanced until we are doomed without our shiny builds. So still not understand who is that silly moro who still say no to the passive regeneration because without them you are die if no use mods. Peoples very mod dependant and weapons also mod dependant and many forget that without them you are just a bone. The game also designed around the mod systems so the passive regenarion somehow wasn't important for the devs because they thought we can only get cheesy mods to keep our flow sustainable. This is a bad game design and in the first place should have been fixed years ago and not defended by some entitled peoples whom use cheesy mods and say to you git gud.

That's my opinion. This doesn't ruin the game which already broken but broken because these aren't in the game.

 

Edited September 21, 2017 by Sziklamester

[TmzOS]

There are some good points there:

- Lobster and Harrow can give energy, but sometimes you will not play in groups or will not play with them;
- Energy hungry builds will be dead in some cases without energy overflow;
- Energy regen aura is a joke in the actual state;
- EO is decent, since it's not active from the start (you need at least 165 segs to activate this) and require a good time grinding focus points;
- The arcane system is a problem (too much RNG to activate and to drop them; "crap thing related to cosmetics"; requires a decent group to farm or too much plats to buy);
- Considering arcanes/globes and excluding warframe abilities, energy replenishment is bound to RNG (and as I see, a good part of the community hates RNG);
- Equilibrium is "rare" and a bit useless for some cases.

Considering these points, I think they can rebalance some things or create new:

- Add a small energy regen (0.5/s maybe?); // It's a fast paced game, dropping energy plates and waiting a regen for a long time is boring and dangerous;
- Improve energy globe drops;
- Buff Energy Siphon; // a problem because will sustain the preference around Naramon polarity
- New aura; // Imagine an aura who gives 0.15 energy on hit, with a Madurai polarity
- Reduce a bit the cost to make energy items;
- Increase efficiency cap and create new efficiency items;
- Reduce base energy cost of some abilities;
- A mod like Rage but focused in shield damage converted to energy. // plz make it

Other considerations:

- EO requires an advanced questline conclusion and a long focus grind;
- EO is reduced in sorties with energy limitation (nearly useless);
- EO is not bound to RNG;
- Energy Siphon is cheap on market and "not that much" common in alerts;
- Equilibrium is useless for energy gain because health is more rare than legendary cores (except if u play Nekros);
- This game have strange efficiency caps on some abilities (channeling);
- Buff Mag's Pull and we can get a third warframe to provide energy;
- Arcane Energize is very rare, expensive as hell and rely on RNG;
- If you NEED one of two warframes to grant energy for the party, considering the actual 33, well, the game has problems (one is "new" in the game and grindy to farm, the prime version of the other is now vaulted);
- Plz fix this before taking out something who runs ok in the game;
- Take Naramom stealth out, it is indeed broken.. maiming strike too;

tl;dr: Independent of the final form, I think the better thing is giving to us more options for our gameplay. For me Energy Overflow is fair as is;

[BlueberryIsWar]

Yes. Beginners have neither Energy Pads nor Energy Siphon. And they should finally stop balancing the game around Veterans with corrupted mods, auras and unlimited ressources.

Especially since producinh Energy Pads is a pain, without queues and other QoL features.

Alternatively they should just nerf tanks and invi frames to the ground. And ofc Limbo and EV Trin. :)

[(XBOX)Cotton Tail]

I'd say no - giving everyone energy regen because of the loss of one focus passive seems a bit of an overall buff; warfarme building involves making choices, of which energy management is one aspect.

[Recel]

30 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Cotton Tail said:

I'd say no - giving everyone energy regen because of the loss of one focus passive seems a bit of an overall buff; warfarme building involves making choices, of which energy management is one aspect.

I'd agree, if energy management would be important. But it's not. EO helped with energy gain, Energy Syphon not so much but still gave something and pizzas literally trivialize energy management, with the added annoyance of having to stand around on one or drop multiple.

There is no energy management. There are only two groups here. One that doesn't mind standing around on a pizza or dropping stacks of it, and one that would like to replenish energy while on the move/doing something without relying on a few specific frames or mass producing pizzas.

Excuse me for simplifying it this much, but I really don't want to write a wall of text now.