The new Zenurik... Just no

[Borg1611]

To those commenting that we should wait to use it before we comment on it or judge it... No... you can tell based on a description if it's going to suck very easily. 

1) People already hate energy pizzas, we don't need version 2.0. We don't want to stand around to gain energy. Never have, never will. 

2) Many people have repeatedly said we don't want to have to use operator combat at all and don't want to have to keep swapping between the two. If we have to swap to an operator to drop energy pizza 2.0, we're going to hate it. It doesn't matter what the numbers are. It can be disgustingly OP in terms of numbers and we'll still hate the mechanic, even if we use it just because it's the best way to gain energy without an energy frame. We know enough about the game and what we like and dislike already to accurately decide that this is NOT what we want. 

There is a tiny glimmer of hope in that she states a couple things in the post that revealed this awful mechanic:

"Everything is subject to change."

and

 "We will follow up in the Update notes about other areas of Energy gain."

Hopefully there will be an arcane or something with passive energy regen still.

Also, I do not understand why they are leaving some less amazing passives in the new focus re-work... BUT STILL MAKING US SWAP TO OPERATOR TO TURN THEM ON!?!!?!!

Why do we have to press a button at the start of every mission to turn a passive on? It never made sense in the old focus to make us wait 2 minutes to turn on focus passives, now we'll just have to randomly swap to operator at the start of every misson just cause? Is there some technical reason it can't just be on?

Talking about this statement in case people haven't read it:

Quote

Next, take a look at what we're calling the 'Residual' nodes of Focus 2.0:

• Residual Starting Node: Energy Pulse. A Residual effect that grants you a radial energy pickup effect for teammates. Once you activate the Operator for the first time (i.e Second Dream activation style or simply calling out the Operator), this remains for the whole mission.

Also here is the link to the post:

I had no idea where people were getting the info from at first since nobody mentioned it on the first page, if at all. 

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Emulad0or said:

Trinity or Harrow needs you to sacrifice your warframe choice or one of the 4 warframes on the team

Energy Siphon needs you to sacrifice your aura slot

Rage needs you to take damage, a risk depending on your warframe, and needs you to sacrifice a mod slot

Pizzas needs you to sacrifice resources, and mobility if you want the full 400 energy it provides

Energy Overflow is the only one that gives energy in a way you can spam without any drawbacks

Trinity and Harrow both create a rather specious question of Opportunity Cost....

• Trinity doesn't drag teams down in any category and if you are using Harrow for Energy you aren't blowing up whole rooms to begin with making the question of sacrifice a non-starter.

Energy Siphon is a terrible use of a slot because it's under-powered in groups where only 1 is installed. Why? It has a terrible cost: benefit ratio.

• If a whole team has it on or has it paired with a co-action drift it can be noticeably potent though. 

So, In groups...

• If multiple people have it equipped
• If one person has coaction drift equipped
• If the group talked aobut aura choices before hand
• If no one is using channeling abilities
• If the mobs don't have armor
• ...It's worth using.

That's a lot of "if's" to make that aura useful.

• It simply isn't useful in solo runs aside from increasing mod capacity by being a matching polarity aura mod. I.E. It's better than nothing.

Rage is very useful depending on frame, build and playstyle...

• But it is dependent on those factors.
• Likewise, safely using it doesn't mean you are sacrificing 1 mod slot...You are actually sacrificing 2 or 3 to account for it's use.

Pizzas are a straight transaction and has the attendant sacrifices you mentioned.

Energy Overflow only gives enough energy to spam a 1 every other second or so.

• ...Since very few frames actually spam 1 this is quite irrelevant to the point.
• Likewise, those that do are typically doing so for purposes of taking advantage of an augment. That's a sacrifice of 1 mod slot.

Please understand, I am not saying Energy Overflow is useless... It's gives select frames and builds passive energy regen which powers many playstyles and opens the door for a slew of modding options.

...Let's not give in to hyperbole though.

If you don't cast a lot, you will have energy to cast and if you do cast a lot you will have to pair the ability with another mod, mechanic, or tactic to account for the expense.

That's exactly as it should be... Energy Overflow shouldn't even have to play a factor in making that a reality truthfully.

Energy Overflow's greatest benefit was being simple, useful, predictable, and transparent...It didn't require thought, fiddling or additional tedium to realize its' benefits.

In trade, player lost the benefits conveyed by passives in other schools.

But Energy Overflow was also a Band-Aid... If they are going to rip it off they need to have fixed what it was covering up for to begin with. 

What's being proposed in Focus 2.0 sounds nifty for some frames and builds but not simple, definitely not without tedium, and extra fiddling sounds required.

It's also not attended by fixes to the core mechanics that make EO attractive currently. 

 

Regardless, we'll all see what it looks like eventually and form relevant opinions from that point.

 

[StabbyTentacles]

On 10/2/2017 at 9:29 PM, BlueberryIsWar said:

Don't worry, there will be an army of players that play Rage Tank Frames or Invisible frames or room nuke channel frames that will tell you to just manage your Energy.

It's always the same response.

DE's logic that EO is overpowered with 4 energy per sec, when Energy Pizzas exist that give you 100 energy per pulse, is just out of this world. Or a finsihed EV Trin that restores your Energy from zero to full in a second?

This one, is strong in the ways of DE.

On 10/2/2017 at 9:36 PM, Navarchus said:

I really like the new Zenurik concept, instead of total immortality & infinite energy it requires the player to.. play. I'm a big fan of playing games.
I maxed out Zenurik but I grew bored of it what feels like.. 2 years ago? I'm hoping the rework might bring back the interest to it, but something tells me I'm going to continue being a Vazarin main.

DE hasn't elaborated what they mean by that they intend on looking over how energy functions in the game as a whole. I'm going to wait for that before making too many assumptions.

DE hasn't elaborated but they have said they are literally undoing years of grind, and in many ways making it irrelevant.

DE hasn't elaborated but they have said they are going to give you back the focus but not into a 'free' pool but rather the same school, so players wasted time must be put straight back where it was. (albeit with the freedom of respecing.)

Assumptions?

On 10/2/2017 at 9:46 PM, kyori said:

The upcoming focus system requires the kid to come out to 'achieve their objective' before the focus will work. That is already a step backwards from the now only press 5 for focus power.

Perhaps many people complained the game is too easy hence DE made it more hassle and troublesome so as to be a challenge. lol

Ageed.

All movement, game mechanics, combat will now require an operator Dance Dance Revolution button mash; without the interesting dynamic music, graphics, but with every increasing complexity! Sounds amazing! I'm going to wait for that before making too many assumptions.

[Volinus7]

WF, yeah fast paced just like Cookieclicker right? 

EO is the outermost layer, of course it will get smashed first if someone wants to reduce abilities/min. 

 

Edited October 4, 2017 by Volinus7

[Creenan]

The cost for having EO is not having access to damage increasing passives from naramon/madurai or instant revives from vazarin. Lets face it, Focus 1.0 is mostly useless stuff, so naturally people utilize only the few relevant things in it.

I use energy overflow even though I could just as easily get extra damage from madurai and just pop pizzas whenever I feel like it. Until pizzas are removed, energy will not be an issue whatsoever. I prefer EO because I dont have to sit around for 30 flow-breaking seconds and wait for pizza pulses or go only for tanky frames with rage. That would kill the game for me. As such I consider EO a quality of life skill worth having over for example damage buffs. Tell me, if EO will be made into a stationary bubble, why would anyone use it when pizzas do the same thing without locking you out from other schools while costing very little? 

In the end we're losing either ability using or mobility. Energy itself will still be non-issue as long as there are energy pizzas. The game will just have to stop every now and then while we wait, stationary and likely bored. Or pick rage viable frames.

[letir]

11 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

IF you want to spam your 4 twice every 10 seconds, or your 1 non stop, yes. That is called balance.

No one is telling you to play that way, I don't play tanky frames with Rage, I don't play Trinity, I use only 1 pizza when I actually need and I play mostly solo. All of that without Zenurik.

No, this isn't called balance. You don't balance skills with modded stats, period. Or else we need nerf every ability according to possible 250% of Power Strength, Duration and Range.

I want to run some builds without energy crunches and still use my abilities, but default energy regeneration is ZERO. This is the root of the problem. In the land of random blue drops and numerous energy suckers it's unnaceptable.

 

And please, don't run with platform "it's about game balance, we need this". Possibility to use 1 every 5 seconds isn't gamechanger, Sound Quake Banshee (which dosen't give a f*** about EO) is.

 

 

[Wesgile]

Efficiency is actually relevant now and you have to balance and decide on whether you have powerful abilities or a spammable one, can't have it both ways anymore.

But nah, people just want it easy. And then proceed to complain the game is too easy. It's wonderful.

[letir]

Just now, Wesgile said:

Efficiency is actually relevant now and you have to balance and decide on whether you have powerful abilities or a spammable one, can't have it both ways anymore.

But nah, people just want it easy. And then proceed to complain the game is too easy. It's wonderful.

People can easely have both powerful and spammable abilities. Some powers work that way.

[Rakosta_Kai]

3 hours ago, Wesgile said:

Efficiency is actually relevant now and you have to balance and decide on whether you have powerful abilities or a spammable one, can't have it both ways anymore.

But nah, people just want it easy. And then proceed to complain the game is too easy. It's wonderful.

You can't have it both ways now...Energy Overflow doesn't offer that much energy.

Also, Energy Overflow won't:

• Slice bread
• Change your oil
• Help you lose weight
• Get you that promotion at work

Folks, we have got to try and keep the exaggeration to a minimum when we talk about this stuff.

Efficiency is a capped attribute. EO, alone, is already balanced to keep you from spamming abilities constantly.

Efficiency has always been relevant (to the point of required) depending on frame, ability, and build choice.

I'm trying to think of a point where efficiency was irrelevant as an attribute and can't.

Yes, some people do make complaints about power while having made themselves overpowered for the content they are tackling. That's an issue that needs to be addressed by entirely different mechanics though.

[ShogunGunshow]

Not gonna flip out about Zenurik yet, because I haven't seen the whole of the update, and there was talk about shifting that energy regeneration to a PoE arcane or set bonus or whatever.

[Fallen_Echo]

51 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Not gonna flip out about Zenurik yet, because I haven't seen the whole of the update, and there was talk about shifting that energy regeneration to a PoE arcane or set bonus or whatever.

Thats the problem here, the new zenurik or the reworked old zenurik EO (in whatever way you want to say it) is a bubble what is active when you void dash into X target and you get a bubble where you can regen energy. So far this is the reworked EO what is essentially the same as the energy surge node what creates a circle where you can regen energy.

[Wesgile]

2 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

You can't have it both ways now...Energy Overflow doesn't offer that much energy.

Also, Energy Overflow won't:

• Slice bread
• Change your oil
• Help you lose weight
• Get you that promotion at work

Folks, we have got to try and keep the exaggeration to a minimum when we talk about this stuff.

Efficiency is a capped attribute. EO, alone, is already balanced to keep you from spamming abilities constantly.

Efficiency has always been relevant (to the point of required) depending on frame, ability, and build choice.

I'm trying to think of a point where efficiency was irrelevant as an attribute and can't.

Yes, some people do make complaints about power while having made themselves overpowered for the content they are tackling. That's an issue that needs to be addressed by entirely different mechanics though.

¯\ _（ツ）_ /¯

Believe whatever you want. I've seen lots of "builds" shared around and most of them involves sub-100% efficiency, because that 99% power strength is just too tempting. Besides, why would you need to cut say 20 or 30 energy cost of an ability if you can just increase said ability's duration and regain said energy on the side.

If Energy Overflow doesn't offer that much energy, there wouldn't be this much of an outcry would it?

[EvilChaosKnight]

7 minutes ago, Wesgile said:

¯\ _（ツ）_ /¯

Believe whatever you want. I've seen lots of "builds" shared around and most of them involves sub-100% efficiency, because that 99% power strength is just too tempting. Besides, why would you need to cut say 20 or 30 energy cost of an ability if you can just increase said ability's duration and regain said energy on the side.

If Energy Overflow doesn't offer that much energy, there wouldn't be this much of an outcry would it?

OMG, what is that? A build diversity?! Negative efficiency which can work?! THIS IS HERESY! *nerfhammer*
Oh mang, just can't wait to go back to "175% eff or die" days for us, solo folks.
Not really.

The only "outcry" I am seeing is the outcry of "WTF are DE thinking right now?!" and a bunch of people who try to excuse their decision.

EO never was and never will be as good as Trin or pizzas or whatnot. From my perspective it was a nice helping hand to solo players. And thus, as a solo player, I'd like to ask, what's YOUR business on how I play my game by myself?

Another thing I'd like to point out. All dem Nullies, Combas and leech Eximi ain't going nowhere, so have fun everyone without a friend whom you can bug long enough to make them play Trin with/for you.

[Wesgile]

18 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

OMG, what is that? A build diversity?! Negative efficiency which can work?! THIS IS HERESY! *nerfhammer*
Oh mang, just can't wait to go back to "175% eff or die" days for us, solo folks.
Not really.

More like positive efficiency builds being pointless, but whatever. Also you don't always need 175% efficiency, who's exaggerating now. Yes even solo.

19 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

what's YOUR business on how I play my game by myself?

You're right, I don't have any, I'm not the one changing the whole thing anyway.

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, Wesgile said:

Believe whatever you want. I've seen lots of "builds" shared around and most of them involves sub-100% efficiency, because that 99% power strength is just too tempting. Besides, why would you need to cut say 20 or 30 energy cost of an ability if you can just increase said ability's duration and regain said energy on the side.

I tend to believe facts and discard hyperbole...

Kindly show me 1 "build" using only Energy Overflow and RNG energy orb drops as their sole means of energy replacement but reliant on constant casting.

1 hour ago, Wesgile said:

If Energy Overflow doesn't offer that much energy, there wouldn't be this much of an outcry would it?

The outcry is coming from the loss of something simple, that took effort to earn, and should have already been in the game to begin with.

I guarantee you anything that DE conveys with their Zenurik changes is going to give more than the 4 energy per second that EO gives now...But with the addition of hoops and tedium.

...It's the hoops and tedium that people are focused on.

 

[Nirrel]

22 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

Do you know how it works?

"Exalted weapons cannot take advantage of it. It does not work for channeled abilities. Channeled abilities can exploit broken efficiency modding, especially as they have no duration."
Duration affects how much energy is used/sec on channeled abilities, but that doesn't matter.

"It's 4 energy per second, this doesn't allow you to spam abilities."
Again, math,ability 1 costs 25, 6.25 with efficiency build. 4 energy per second is 1 ability use every 1.56 sec. Ability 4 costs 100, 25 with efficiency, that is 1 ability use every 6.25 sec. How is that not spam again? And for free, no need for pizza, rage, anything, between one fight and another, you get enouth energy to just spam your 4 like crazy.

"Energy siphon is a bloody joke. Esp as it's virtually impossible to face higher level enemies without corrosive projection."
It's the same thing as Energy Overflow, only it doesn't allow you to spam... And my strun, my oberon, and I could find another number of things, can deal with high level Grineer (because last time corpus had armor was in Damage 1.0), but this is not what this thread is about.

"The remaining forms of energy regen are clearly bad and do indeed allow for absurd levels of ability spam."
Yes, at a price. You need to sacrifice a mod slot for Rage, a warframe on the team as a Trinity, your aura mod for Energy Siphon, your resources for pizzas. But Energy Overflow is free, you just have to wait 2min to activate it and there, infinite energy for the rest of the mission.

 

None of your "arguments" make any sense whatsoever. We're not talking about literally killing half the abilities in the game, 1/4 of the frames and a more active plastyle, we are talking about a passive you can activate for free that gives you infinite energy without any drawbacks. We are talking about not being able to adapt, to change your build our your gameplay if you love your build some much, to make it work without Energy Overflow. We are talking about viable options to get energy that will still be ingame after Focus 2.0

1. Duration as duration in time. When you go for max efficiency you will loose duration, and many frames cannot affort mod space to propely counter balance that. On the other hand while duration does affects how much energy is used/sec on channeled abilities you gain a bit more on the same amount of efficiency than on duration so using for example fleeting expertise wont affect at all that stat.

2. While your math is exact it wont reflect how the game is. Building for max efficiency is not always viable if you need the duration for your abilities to be actually useful. The usual in theory looks good but in practice it's useless for many frames.

3. But it doesn't allow you to cast your abilities either....unless you can allow for a max efficiency build wich as I said above it's not always feasible.

4. You cannot use rage on frames that have no mean to gain health, and while we are talking about support frames, the likeliness that in random group you will have one is remote. You cannot go to recruit chat to whine for a Trinity if not for very specific missions types. Energy siphon is useless with a balanced build unless you have more than one in the group so cannot count on. Pizzas you can count on if you have the resources but you have to stay stationary.

That leaves us with the only reliable energy gain system in the game around wich you can build your frame and it's EO. And I see no problem in the fact that it is "free". It should be in the game by default and all the other additional energy gain systems in the game should be reworked keeping in mind how much energy the player has acces to by default. As I see it, is the only way to rein in and truly balance the energy system. When you speak of how you can spam your abilities with EO without a cost I always laugh out. After 2 month into the game I had no problem to spam them anyway. I had all the efficiency mods, auras, trinty, and so many resources just playing the game that I did not have any drawbacks anyway so the argument that EO is free doesn't really hold up for me.

 

22 hours ago, Chipputer said:

Seen it in action? Nope.
Played with it, directly? Nope.
Read very basic descriptions that obviously aren't enough to judge on? Check.

Wait for it to get here and try it out before you immediately say no.

Anything that they give us will only add to the gameplay, so of course I'll try it out. But I can already tell that unless they solve the issue how unreliably operators work, it will be bad. You see 90% of the time I die on floods because I push that button but or nothing happens or it does happen with a big delay just to name the basic problem and there are many others. Base a whole system with abilities that you should in theory use on the fly can lead to diastrous events :P

In addition I hate mechanics that force you to stay put in one place.

21 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Second, Berehynia is just the latest in a long line of what are now called 'loot caves'. There will always be a node on the map that is considered the most efficient and cheese-able for affinity gain. Because players consistently try to find one. Always. DE have, again and again, shifted the map around to make sure these cheese nodes are removed by changing which maps appear for which mission type, and in the case of the old Draco, removing that map entirely from the tileset generation for the mission type. They have also, time and again, made changes to abilities that allow over-cheese in order to make sure that the cheese is reduced.

The argument that these styles are fun to play with is simply because it makes the game easy. It makes the game lazy. And DE have consistently made these changes over time to ensure that lazy gameplay is as far between as they can make it.

That in mind, the only reason that Energy Overflow exists right now is because the entire Focus System was waiting on DEScott to give direction on how to redo it. He said less than three months in that Naramon Shadow Step and Zenurik Energy Overflow were having unforseen levels of results and ever since then has said that when he was able to he would be breaking it down and doing it over again.

It's only due to the amount of time it's taken to get to that stage that people are complaining so much. Two years is too long for a 'test' of the system.

And one more point that I made earlier, for every single person that claims that they want to stay mobile in this game, not sit around in bubbles or on pizzas, there are six (defense, mobile defense, interception, excavation, defection and arena) modes that actively work well with standing around, and if we're completely honest even Survival has its spawns and mechanics designed to work best by finding a large room with lots of doors for enemies to spawn outside, and then camping it for as long as you can, charging around being 'mobile' in that actually makes the spawns slower and splits them up to keep them both ahead of you and some behind you as you go, so you don't last as long as you could.

Sure if you're a person that enjoys just Capture, Rescue, Sabotage, Exterminate, Hijack, Spy, and boss Assassinations (the other modes that don't involve archwing or PvP) and never touches the rest, you have a right to make that claim, but I doubt that actually encompasses many players.

Zenurik now is promoting a very selfish play style, the 'I have energy, I'm fine' kind of attitude. Right? You can solo up to higher level where before Zenurik or Naramon we had to squad up. And that's something I think DE are trying to squash here too.

He can call pizzas cheese, because there is no limitation on them and they give an absurd amount of energy wich permit cheesy gameplay or you can't call anything cheese in the game because players just use mechanics given by the game. The point is that EO it just a steady energy income and if the devs takes it out of the game because they think is overpowered than we ask ourselves how is that EV/pizzas isn't reworked when they are a much bigger offenders when it comes to cheese the game not talking about overpowered abilities. Nobody cheese the game with EO.

I'm not sure what DEScott was waiting for 2 years, but if  EO or ST was such a big impact he could have retouch them easily to make them less effective, I see no point to wait 2 years. At the same time even if they would have nerfed them a bit ppl would have still used them as a majority seeing how uttely useless the rest was with a prohibitive cooldown with some exception. So ppl is complaining because they ecpected the rework to be 1. warfarme related, 2. nerfed but not completely eliminated.

If we are at it, nobody have a problem with the team-bubble introduced in itself. Ppl have problem with it because they proposed it to completely replace with it the mobile way to gain energy. Why not have both for example. You zenurik user have 2energy/sec passively and can create bubbles for you team mates.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Nirrel

[Birdframe_Prime]

49 minutes ago, Nirrel said:

He can call pizzas cheese, because there is no limitation on them and they give an absurd amount of energy wich permit cheesy gameplay or you can't call anything cheese in the game because players just use mechanics given by the game. The point is that EO it just a steady energy income and if the devs takes it out of the game because they think is overpowered than we ask ourselves how is that EV/pizzas isn't reworked when they are a much bigger offenders when it comes to cheese the game not talking about overpowered abilities. Nobody cheese the game with EO.

I'm not sure what DEScott was waiting for 2 years, but if  EO or ST was such a big impact he could have retouch them easily to make them less effective, I see no point to wait 2 years. At the same time even if they would have nerfed them a bit ppl would have still used them as a majority seeing how uttely useless the rest was with a prohibitive cooldown with some exception. So ppl is complaining because they ecpected the rework to be 1. warfarme related, 2. nerfed but not completely eliminated.

If we are at it, nobody have a problem with the team-bubble introduced in itself. Ppl have problem with it because they proposed it to completely replace with it the mobile way to gain energy. Why not have both for example. You zenurik user have 2energy/sec passively and can create bubbles for you team mates.

I mentioned this in an earlier reply, but there are only two reasons that Pizzas aren't technically cheese tactics, the first is that they cost. They're a single use item of gear that you have to craft and re-craft and that only the players who've been playing and farming the longest have the actual resources to just go and craft 80 or 90 of these a day. The other reason is the one that make people think that these new Zenurik energy bubbles are bad, which is that a single energy Pizza will restore 400 energy over 28 seconds, which for those that can't afford to craft lots of them, is how long you wait and you're not fully topped up yet. I mean, yes, if our ability economy was such that we only used 100 energy every 7 seconds, then a single pizza would be enough, or if our energy pools didn't frequently get to 400+ on the average caster they would be great... but the thing that edges them to a cheese tactic is that people don't like standing around and so drop three or four at once so they get that 400 energy instantly and also can stay in the area for 400 more in seven seconds.

In any case, the problem that I and others had with Zenurik is that it cost nothing. DE seems to have that issue too, considering the method they're taking with the rework. Once you unlock EO that was kind of it. You didn't need to put any more into that school, I certainly didn't, I went right back to farming up my Vazarin for the instant revives and the Affinity range buff for Trinity and later Harrow. All you did was wait for the 165 seconds it took to activate it and your job there was done. You may only have gotten 112 energy over the same 28 seconds of play compared to a Pizza, but you did it passively, with no involvement whatsoever. And energy economy with efficiency on casters is such that you can restore enough energy for a 4 cast every 6-7 seconds, less if you're actually picking up orbs too or were lucky enough to have a maxed Arcane Energise...

But here's a thought for you, before we go on in this... maybe the active node that says 'drop a bubble of energy restore' has an upgrade tree? One that says something like 'on leaving the bubble, continue to restore energy for X seconds'? There are options there that can give us the mobile energy restore, so that a person with Zenurik can jump out, drop a bubble with their dash (which I can do in under 2 seconds thanks to Kuva farming), and all their team will run through it, triggering a timed energy regen as they go.

We just. Don't. Know.

But again, here, no matter how much you claim you want a mobile way to gain energy, there has to be that acknowledgement in your mind that this game actually has half its content with us not mobile, but standing around. It's even a complaint of many players, the 'we're highly mobile space ninjas, but space mom has us standing around protecting pods for hours'.

Edited October 4, 2017 by Thaylien

[Nirrel]

58 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

In any case, the problem that I and others had with Zenurik is that it cost nothing. DE seems to have that issue too, considering the method they're taking with the rework. Once you unlock EO that was kind of it. You didn't need to put any more into that school, I certainly didn't, I went right back to farming up my Vazarin for the instant revives and the Affinity range buff for Trinity and later Harrow. All you did was wait for the 165 seconds it took to activate it and your job there was done. You may only have gotten 112 energy over the same 28 seconds of play compared to a Pizza, but you did it passively, with no involvement whatsoever. And energy economy with efficiency on casters is such that you can restore enough energy for a 4 cast every 6-7 seconds, less if you're actually picking up orbs too or were lucky enough to have a maxed Arcane Energise...

But here's a thought for you, before we go on in this... maybe the active node that says 'drop a bubble of energy restore' has an upgrade tree? One that says something like 'on leaving the bubble, continue to restore energy for X seconds'? There are options there that can give us the mobile energy restore, so that a person with Zenurik can jump out, drop a bubble with their dash (which I can do in under 2 seconds thanks to Kuva farming), and all their team will run through it, triggering a timed energy regen as they go.

We just. Don't. Know.

But again, here, no matter how much you claim you want a mobile way to gain energy, there has to be that acknowledgement in your mind that this game actually has half its content with us not mobile, but standing around. It's even a complaint of many players, the 'we're highly mobile space ninjas, but space mom has us standing around protecting pods for hours'.

I wouldn't say it doesn't cost anything. First you have to get the lenses wich is total RNG so many have to resort to buying them, then grind for focus. It's true once you have it, it doesn't cost anything to activate it, but you did a fair amount of grinding until you unlocked it and maxed it out. And then you left it there because there was nothing else worth to get in the school or it wasn't worth the cooldown time not because EO was abilty to cheese the game, but there was nothing else to get that would have been usable in a reasonable spawn of time. That doesn't mean that there is something wrong with EO, it means that system is bad in the first place and the other abilities are rubbish.

On paper you can do anything but the reality is that while you can go for max efficiency on some frames, many of them will need duration to make their ability worth to cast at all, so there is no way they can cast their 4 every 6 seconds. That is the reality of the game. The argument of the "possibilty" of spamming your 4 on paper doesn't mean that in game building for it will give you any benefit, generally there is a big downside to it, and in certain cases there is good chance that you gimp at least one or 2 of their abilities wich will become close to useless.

Not talking about the fact that not only you can potentially do that already if you wish so anyway with what we already have in game but the new system will help you as well. You can just dash (that a very high cost if you ask me) and fill up and continue or you can just stay in the bubble and spam (and not you but your team as well). It doen't seem to me that it's going to improve the energy economy in general in the game it will just make you less mobile.

So you not only did not solve the teoretical spam but you slowed down the gameplay and made it more tedious, congratulations.

Oh, and there is the promise of DE that they will give us something like EO in the form of an arcane...Really ...Give me one good point how taking out EO from zenurik will improve energy economy in the game to avoid spam if that is the point.

In reality most squishy casters benefitted of it not because they could cast 4 x times but because finally they could use the whole spectrum of their abilities on the run wich helps you to avoid being hit, and use QT as an extention. It did not make them cheesy, it just made them a hundred times more enjoyable to play.

[Creenan]

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

In any case, the problem that I and others had with Zenurik is that it cost nothing.

This is like saying that the 20% armor buff from Unairu is too strong because it costs nothing. The cost of EO is not having access to buffs to your damage, instant revives, permanent stealth or whatever you might be interested in the other schools. Either none of the schools have any costs and thus should be removed for being too strong, or they all have a cost.

But of course EO - like everything else in focus system except for the very base ability - has a cost. I've spent more time farming for focus than I've ever farmed polymeer or nano spores. I've also spent plat on lenses, never on base resources like spores.

[UltraLYT]

Energy Flow does not make the caster frames OP, it just makes them function smoothly, it is an upgrade. 

Removing it is a regression, a downgrade for the caster frames.  

[(XBOX)BluAina]

I can't for the life of me, understand the complaints about using a specific frame. That's literally all this game is about for min maxing 

[o0Despair0o]

On 2.10.2017 at 12:15 PM, Mudfam said:

So now with Focus 2.0 in place of energy overflow we get a deployable bubble, because Ninjas... Sit in bubbles!

Except that we're not ninjas, but weird alien bio-mechanic killing machines taking on small armies with machine guns, flamethrowers, rocket launchers, grenade launchers, assault rifles, shotguns, pistols, spears, swords, daggers, and elemental attacks.

 

So ninja. Much wow.

[Mudfam]

2 hours ago, o0Despair0o said:

Except that we're not ninjas, but weird alien bio-mechanic killing machines taking on small armies with machine guns, flamethrowers, rocket launchers, grenade launchers, assault rifles, shotguns, pistols, spears, swords, daggers, and elemental attacks.

 

So ninja. Much wow.

We just needed to add semantics to the other arbitrary nonsense in this thread.

If it really did escape you, the tagline for this game is actually "Ninjas play free", it was a mockery of that. The point being that sitting in one spot is not fun and encourages the most exploitative strategies.

Edited October 5, 2017 by Mudfam
typo

[Borg1611]

At around 5 hours 18 minutes in this stream:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/179931536

they demonstrate the Zenurik energy zone. Apparently it applies a 30 second buff of 5 energy per second, so in some ways it's a minor buff in that you can now use it at the very start of a mission and it restores 1 more energy per second. Rebecca also said they may stack if multiple people are using Zenurik, but she wasn't sure if that was the case. 

That is less annoying certainly than having to stand in the zone, but it's still an unnecessary chore. 

I think many people will still find it obnoxious that you are forced to change to your operator every 30 seconds to refresh a passive, which is forcing us to use our operators many more times during a mission than we had previously (before we only had to pop our focus ability once a mission to activate our passive, which never really felt right to begin with). Personally I would just give the zone buff an infinite duration so you only have to apply it once a mission (or once per death?) and call it a day. 

Some people just do not want to play operator tag team, there's no reason to make them refresh a 30 second regen buff. It isn't any more compelling that way. It doesn't create interesting gameplay. Having to look up in the corner to see if my buff icon is still there and how much time I have left on it, or just excessively over re-applying the buff to make sure it doesn't fall off isn't going to make people enjoy Warframe combat more. It just forces people to use their operator, even if just for a second every 30 seconds. Why? Just let people not use their operators any more than we have to. We get that the devs think it's cool, and that's fine, but not all players do and there's no reason to force it onto them anymore than it already is. It really doesn't make the game better in any meaningful way to push this operator tag team chore onto people. That's all it is. A little chore you have to do to keep a buff up. People will deal with it if they have to, but they shouldn't have to. It just isn't a positive change for the game. Why do you want us to swap to operators for a second every 30 seconds to provide a buff to our Warframes? It just interrupts the flow of combat for buff maintenance.

[Eldnacpeek]

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

I think many people will still find it obnoxious that you are forced to change to your operator every 30 seconds to refresh a passive

 

It would be an active in this case. If it's referred to as a passive in game, that needs a change.