New Focus is a HUGE ripoff to Zenurik

[(XBOX)Deadly Moves]

48 minutes ago, MagPrime said:

Due to the changes, I have no interest in Zenurik and wanted to try out a different school.

But since all my millions of points are locked by school, I can't use those points.

With how big the changes are, it would have been better if DE had put all points into a focus neutral pool.  Now in have to spend plat to get lenses, to regrind millions of points worth of focus, while my original millions of points sit unused.

yeah im hoping they change it by the time it comes to console. Im fairly new to WF but i have spent enough to get stage 1 of the old passive energy ability, and the slash damage buff in madurai. The New version of Zenurik looks crap.

[MagPrime]

3 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deadly Moves said:

yeah im hoping they change it by the time it comes to console. Im fairly new to WF but i have spent enough to get stage 1 of the old passive energy ability, and the slash damage buff in madurai. The New version of Zenurik looks crap.

Main reason I wanted to jump to a different school.  

 

[aligatorno]

6 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Deadly Moves said:

yeah im hoping they change it by the time it comes to console. Im fairly new to WF but i have spent enough to get stage 1 of the old passive energy ability, and the slash damage buff in madurai. The New version of Zenurik looks crap.

Looking and being are two different things. Basically you have energy regen on demand from the get go, up to 5en/s for 30 seconds stacking with the others for up to 20en/sec while in the bubbles. It takes 1-2 seconds to activate. And Since you have the first node activated, you`ll regen energy passively from picking up orbs as well. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by aligatorno

[Arniox]

2 hours ago, InsanityKey said:

wanted to give the new focus system a chance before ripping on it but there are some immediate glaring flaws in the cost of nodes compared to their value and the value of focus standing prior to this update.  Namely, everything is WAY too expensive for how much it actually does.  The new attributes for the Zenurik tree are outright insulting to anyone who invested in old Zenurik.  Getting to stage 3 of Energizing Dash alone drained ALL of the standing I had refunded that had unlocked half the Zenurik tree and maxed out my energy regen prior to the rework.

I don't know, I had nearly 2 million spare points in zenurik. If you invested in a school, you should have had millions of spare points even before the rework.

[(XBOX)Deadly Moves]

6 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

Looking and being are two different things. Basically you have energy regen on demand, up to 5en/s for 30 seconds stacking with the others for up to 20en/sec while in the bubbles. It takes 1-2 seconds to activate. And Since you have the first node activated, you`ll regen energy passively from picking up orbs as well. 

When i said change it, it meant change it so that your points go into 1 pool, and not individual schools pools. not change the ability, as i know that isnt going to happen

Edited October 13, 2017 by (XB1)Deadly Moves

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 hour ago, PoisonHD said:

Or just, you know, popping it out when you see your energy is low.

...One of those things you wouldn't have had to do with the Old Zenurik.

Back then, you would have needed to simply stop casting and move to survive instead for a while.

If EO was the only thing being used, you would have had to remain engaged, attentive to location, surroundings and your energy bar.

Now there's none of that—Just tedium.

The one thing that can be said is that the tedium is consistent between the schools in that tier.

57 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

Looking and being are two different things. Basically you have energy regen on demand from the get go, up to 5en/s for 30 seconds stacking with the others for up to 20en/sec while in the bubbles. It takes 1-2 seconds to activate. And Since you have the first node activated, you`ll regen energy passively from picking up orbs as well. 

...Except orbs don't drop all that much.

I can go whole missions extermination missions without getting one energy orb.

...Maybe that's just my luck? 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by Padre_Akais

[PoisonHD]

25 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

If EO was the only thing being used, you would have had to remain engaged, attentive to location, surroundings and your energy bar.

Now there's none of that—Just tedium.

The one thing that can be said is that the tedium is consistent between the schools in that tier.

Don't you have to do more of that now? Remain engaged, and aware of your surroundings so you know when to pop out your operator to get m ore energy? I don't really see a problem here that removes that aspect.

Edited October 13, 2017 by PoisonHD

[Rakosta_Kai]

1 minute ago, PoisonHD said:

Don't you have to do more of that now? Remain engaged, and aware of your surroundings so you know when to pop out your operator to get m ore energy? I don't really see a problem here

No...You have to do less.

The frame is invulnerable while the operator is out of it and the Operator is immortal to begin with (being KO'd as the operator just knocks you back into the frame).

I'd imagine that your inability to see a problem stems from a couple of different possibilities.

1. You weren't invested in Zenurik.
2. You didn't/couldn't buy lenses or had the means to trade for the ones you wanted.
3. You didn't use Focus 1.0 at all or didn't find it engaging enough to bother with.
4. You used other means of energy regen generally.
5. You are a fan of the operator and the new system suits you.

Here's the problem with all of those things though... I should not have to account for them in my day to day play experience.

1. The math tells us EO wasn't overpowered.
2. Lens sortie awards were RNG leaving micro-transactions as the only reliable path to progression.
3. Saturation/Approval percentages shouldn't have a negative effect on early adopters.
4. If you used something other than EO you gained it's benefits instead as opposed to those who did and gave up the benefits from the other trees.
5. Your playstyle and perferences shouldn't dictate my play experience.

Simply put, if you fail to see a problem it's because you may only be looking at it from your perspective... There's not a thing wrong with that in your case.

There IS something wrong with that in DE's though.

Understand...I'm not saying they need to change it— It's their game and they can do what they want.

It will make me think twice about micro-transactions and purchasing plat though.

...That's coming from a guy that's a bit old school and follows the notion of spending 15USD on online games that get played monthly.

 

 

[Ceadeus]

1 hour ago, aligatorno said:

Looking and being are two different things. Basically you have energy regen on demand from the get go, up to 5en/s for 30 seconds stacking with the others for up to 20en/sec while in the bubbles. It takes 1-2 seconds to activate. And Since you have the first node activated, you`ll regen energy passively from picking up orbs as well. 

Couple problems with that.  I'll start with the "It takes 1-2 seconds to activate" part.  Do you know why we have one handed actions?  Things that can be done will performing any other action, reloading, certain powers, etc?  Because even if it is just a split second that you have to sit there and stop whatever you're doing, it's INCREDIBLY annoying and destroys the feeling of momentum in the game.  So how is it better to instead make me have to completely stop whatever I'm doing to switch to a completely different mode do a pointless dash, just so I can sit in one place to get the full regen effects (because you're not if you leave the bubble early)?

Going off of that, you talked about "20en/sec" that's assuming all four of your teammates group up and dash to pretty much the exact same spot, you don't think THAT'S gonna break up gameplay at all?  "Quick everybody come circlejerk on me, I need energy."  And even if you did do that, that's only assuming everybody in your squad picked Zenurik.

And finally orbs... simply put, why even put in an energy regen method if it's gonna circle all the way back and rely heavily on orb drops anyway?  It's pointless.

[RawGritz]

3 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

That's actually the length the bubble stays around. You get the buff for 22 seconds upon leaving the bubble (Well, mine is rank 3 and  I do), and 30 at max rank. They need to change the text to reflect that. I actually prefer the new Zenurik, because it's active, stronger, still quick to put down, and can be shared with squad members. In addition to all this you you can throw it down at the start of a mission without having to wait.

 

The cost of the new nodes are fine, because of the new daily cap, and the increased gain on convergence. 

Loooooooove the new Zenurik. OP is trippin'-trippin'! Teh ability to pop it at the start of the mission to instantly gain benefits for the entirety of the mission is fabulous. 

Edited October 13, 2017 by RawGritz

[PoisonHD]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

No...You have to do less.

I really don't understand what you're saying, you're saying you have to do more with a passive ability that requires one cast through the entire mission which your Warframe is invulnerable during. I don't see why you'd have to be engaged, aware of where you cast it, your location, surroundings or your energy bar. I never was when I used it, and was able to cast it and forget about it.

 

Compare that to an active ability that you have to place down, be aware where enemies are located so you don't place your Energy bubble, which doesn't mitigate damage, down in the middle of a group of enemies, which would cause your Warframe to get insta-ganked by the enemies as soon as you switch away from your operator for the passive energy.

 

You seem to be doing more with the second to me. After that passive energy is passive energy, and you're doing the same with both until you refresh the second. I was invested in Zenurik, I spent plat on lenses and traded for them, and I still don't see a problem at all. Lenses even dropped often enough for people to complain about getting them everyday. The new operator system doesn't really even suit me, since I'm still trying to get used to it. 

Maybe I'm just not understanding your points.

Edited October 13, 2017 by PoisonHD

[hooperinius]

I've been playing for maybe 6-9 months casually and have about 700k points. Current Zenurik sucks. Massive points sink and the regen abilities are wonky. Dash bubble doesn't even work half the time. Hopefully they fix it so that we can either refund the points/spend them in other schools or clean up the Zenurik tree.

[Fluff-E-Kitty]

I have the full tree unlocked and a bunch of nodes fully maxed. it looks like the new tree costs a LOT more. But in all fairness, I think the energy buff restults in a higher energy gain per second and thus im hapy with that aspect of it... but the rest of the nodes are kinda meh. or at lest it is now, might get better when I get a better amp thingy.

 

[hooperinius]

1 hour ago, InsanityKey said:

"Quick everybody come circlejerk on me, I need energy." 

Yeah in a defense mission why not but for everything else it needs to be more like an aura.

Wouldn't have to be a passive 1click aura like old Zenurik either, perhaps they could make it something along the lines of an energy regen that is linked to the melee combo counter; the more enemies you kill, the more energy you regen for your entire group.

 

 

 

[Nyaa314]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)RDeschain82 said:

And with pulse you basically got a Arcane Energize set for free.

30% of energize set that doesn't work when you are channeling.

[Desdemona-XI]

6 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

I wanted to give the new focus system a chance before ripping on it but there are some immediate glaring flaws in the cost of nodes compared to their value and the value of focus standing prior to this update.  Namely, everything is WAY too expensive for how much it actually does.  The new attributes for the Zenurik tree are outright insulting to anyone who invested in old Zenurik.  Getting to stage 3 of Energizing Dash alone drained ALL of the standing I had refunded that had unlocked half the Zenurik tree and maxed out my energy regen prior to the rework.  How is it fair that I have to use all of my standing to get an incredibly neutered and frankly worse version of an ability I already had?  Prior to the rework I had 4 energy/s for the ENTIRE mission and had plenty of other nodes unlocked, now I get 4 energy/s FOR 5 SECONDS and that alone has costed me all of my standing.

In short, something needs to be done about this.  Old Zenurik wasn't broken or bad in any way like Naramon, the other schools just sucked.  Yes maybe if people abused it with already overpowered Warframes (that's a deeper issue), but the people who actually used it properly could have a fun time actually getting to use both their abilities (y'know the flagship part of the game?) and their guns without having to worry about getting an energy orb after every upper-mid-level enemy.

Either the cost of these nodes needs to be drastically reduced to be more in-line with what the old system had, or the effects need to be drastically increased because now things have just been reversed and Zenurik is the most trash school.

 

EDIT: So I also just noticed that the 3rd tier of Energizing Dash literally doesn't even do anything.  It didn't increase the energy rate or duration and it costed me an extra 300,000 standing.  This HAS to be a joke.  Nobody could have worked on this system and thought this was fair in the slightest.

pretty sure the 3rd tier of energizing dash. is meant to make it cross-school unlocked. which would explain the lack of visible stat change. secondly. the old school was severely tempered by cooldowns and more expensive focus pools. and focus was Always intended to be a long term project for the player.

[Rakosta_Kai]

2 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

I really don't understand what you're saying, you're saying you have to do more with a passive ability that requires one cast through the entire mission which your Warframe is invulnerable during. I don't see why you'd have to be engaged, aware of where you cast it, your location, surroundings or your energy bar. I never was when I used it, and was able to cast it and forget about it.

Really? You can't discern the difference between having an invulnerability phase with required actions being less engaging than not having an invulnerability phase and active       resource management?

 If you are actually incapable of seeing the difference between the two I am not sure what to tell you, tbh.

Since this is the case though, you clearly won't understand my point...Fair enough.

Knowing thedifference between these two forms would really be a base condition to continuing this conversation imo as it affects the notion of engagement. 

2 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

Compare that to an active ability that you have to place down, be aware where enemies are located so you don't place your Energy bubble, which doesn't mitigate damage, down in the middle of a group of enemies, which would cause your Warframe to get insta-ganked by the enemies as soon as you switch away from your operator for the passive energy.

Answered above...

2 hours ago, PoisonHD said:

You seem to be doing more with the second to me. After that passive energy is passive energy, and you're doing the same with both until you refresh the second. I was invested in Zenurik, I spent plat on lenses and traded for them, and I still don't see a problem at all. Lenses even dropped often enough for people to complain about getting them everyday. The new operator system doesn't really even suit me, since I'm still trying to get used to it. 

Maybe I'm just not understanding your points.

Everyone's play experience is going to differ...

I barely saw lenses personally, and got mostly statues instead. I can honestly tell you I didn't receive more than one Zenurik lens in all the sorties I've run. I don't know why and could never explain how, but this game's RNG has always been streaky like that to me.

I am not telling you that you have to see a problem...I am telling you that you likely lack the pre-requisites to see why I have a problem with it.

Play experiences differ but DE has an obligation to ensure all player's experiences are accounted for.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Padre_Akais

[Acos]

"invested in Zenurik" 

You spent 5 dollars, possibly farmed for a few days, and then got passive energy regen. I've had that since shortly after Focus 1.0 dropped. Let's stop being dramatic about five dollars we spent almost a year ago, plz. 

[PoisonHD]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

Really? You can't discern the difference between having an invulnerability phase with required actions being less engaging than not having an invulnerability phase and active       resource management?

 If you are actually incapable of seeing the difference between the two I am not sure what to tell you, tbh.

Since this is the case though, you clearly won't understand my point...Fair enough.

Knowing the functional difference between these two forms would really be a base condition to continuing this conversation imo as it affects the notion of engagement directly. 

But there's no active resource management from a one time cast WITH INVULNERABILITY, there almost no engagement at all with it unless you're counting energy, which you have to do even more under the new system. There is more managing with a timer that you have to keep track of that also has invulnerability on your cast like the previous Zenurik, so I have no idea where you're coming from, or how you even came to your view.

To me, a invulnerability phase (That you don't get going back to your Warfame) is more active and requires more thought then a one time cast that you press and forget.

 

Just explain what active resource management you're even talking about.

Edited October 13, 2017 by PoisonHD

[pfoo]

8 hours ago, Ceadeus said:

In short, something needs to be done about this.  Old Zenurik wasn't broken or bad in any way like Naramon, the other schools just sucked.  Yes maybe if people abused it with already overpowered Warframes (that's a deeper issue), but the people who actually used it properly could have a fun time actually getting to use both their abilities (y'know the flagship part of the game?) and their guns without having to worry about getting an energy orb after every upper-mid-level enemy.

 

Classical DE. Rework things players are using instead of buffing unused ones.

8 hours ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

Honestly, I knew that zenurik would eventually be nerfed the first time I ever used it. I'm just surprised they waited this long....

 

5 hours ago, Padre_Akais said:

There IS something wrong with that in DE's though.

Understand...I'm not saying they need to change it— It's their game and they can do what they want.

It will make me think twice about micro-transactions and purchasing plat though.

...That's coming from a guy that's a bit old school and follows the notion of spending 15USD on online games that get played monthly.

 

 

1 hour ago, Acos said:

"invested in Zenurik" 

You spent 5 dollars, possibly farmed for a few days, and then got passive energy regen. I've had that since shortly after Focus 1.0 dropped. Let's stop being dramatic about five dollars we spent almost a year ago, plz. 

 

The problem is DE is doing the same thing over and over again. Release a powerfull frame/weapon/school/whatever, some people start complaining because they feel like it is overpowered, wait a few months (or years sometime) for players to invest reactor/catalyst/forma/focus/endo in this newly released stuff (and yeah, some are using real money for this), nerf it. Start again.

[Rakosta_Kai]

5 hours ago, Acos said:

"invested in Zenurik" 

You spent 5 dollars, possibly farmed for a few days, and then got passive energy regen. I've had that since shortly after Focus 1.0 dropped. Let's stop being dramatic about five dollars we spent almost a year ago, plz. 

You have about half a clue regarding how much I wish that was true.

...You spent 5 bucks.

...I wish I had.

Everybody's miles are different...You should be, at least, be swift enough to understand that much.

Edited October 14, 2017 by Padre_Akais

[Deraios]

3 hours ago, pfoo said:

The problem is DE is doing the same thing over and over again. Release a powerfull frame/weapon/school/whatever, some people start complaining because they feel like it is overpowered, wait a few months (or years sometime) for players to invest reactor/catalyst/forma/focus/endo in this newly released stuff (and yeah, some are using real money for this), nerf it. Start again.

When even people acknowledge something is overpowered, it is their fault for investing in it, not expecting it to change, no matter how long it takes.

[fr4gb4ll]

it's expensive, ok, i can agree with that - but at least that gives me a new reason to actually mind farming more focus now.

the way you can get energy now is far better in my book since you don't have to wait for the activation to happen, and quick switching between operator and frame every 30 sec isn't that hard at all. only the "bubble-time" could be a few seconds longer for team member to realize it's there and jump into it to get the timer running.

the other skills and passives in the new zenurik are ever pushing the energy gain higher when used - it's just not the lame old "push button once and never care about the whole thing again" thing (like old ash and  his push 4 to win). and don't forget that now the whole team can profit from one member using zenurik - ofc, that requires teamplay again, right?

[Ceadeus]

43 minutes ago, Deraios said:

When even people acknowledge something is overpowered, it is their fault for investing in it, not expecting it to change, no matter how long it takes.

But when something isn't overpowered at all and it literally just helps the game flow better but there's morons calling it overpowered because they don't understand balance, then what?

[pfoo]

3 hours ago, Deraios said:

When even people acknowledge something is overpowered, it is their fault for investing in it, not expecting it to change, no matter how long it takes.

It's not "people acknowledge". It's always some whiners complaining because they saw someone making more damage and kills in mission result. For god sake, it's normal to be overpowered when using frames or weapons you made for endgame 40+min survival in normal missions.

So, everytime I feel like something is good, I should NOT use it because at some point, DE might nerf it ? How much time did it take to nerf ash ? simulor ? secura lecta ? Maybe I should wait for warframe to be out of early access ... oh wait, it's not. You can start the nerf clock for the Lenz (I'd say no less than 18 months). Trinity's counter is still ticking.

I'm not even saying the new zenurik is bad. It can be quite good, requiring more teamplay which can be great. But do you really need to spend 2 years in beta before completely changing how a school is working ? Can I farm zenurik now or is it going to be reworked again in 2 years because people hate operator mode ?