Some basic concepts DE needs to understand

[SordidDreams]

I feel a lot of the changes in PoE are ultimately due to DE not understanding some key concepts about Warframe and its players. I'm going to try to explain them:

 

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS. Simple as that. If anything, this update should have removed operators from the game, not shoved them down our throats even more. The Eidolon fight mechanics and the changes to Focus are very clearly designed to motivate players to use the operator, and by "motivate" I of course mean "force". Nobody plays operators because they enjoy it, they do it only for the shortest amount of time required. Why do you think the SD meta for the Eidolon fight spread so quickly? Because nobody wants to play operators. The fight is not fun, it's a tedious chore, an obstacle on the path to rewards. Is anybody going to continue playing it once they have all the rewards, just for the enjoyment of it? I seriously doubt it. Same thing with Focus. Need energy? Even die-hard defenders of the new system tell everyone to just press 5, ctrl+space, 5, i.e. spend as little time in operator mode as possible. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody. Wants. To. Play. Operator.

 

WARFRAME IS AN EASY CASUAL GAME FOR CASUALS. This is equally as important as the above, and it directly relates to the changes to Zenurik as well as the mechanics of the Eidolon fight. Previously I could have constant passive energy regen, which was great. I could run around spamming my abilities and slaughtering hordes of enemies with barely any effort. It was fantastic fun. Now I have to perform some convoluted button press combo every thirty seconds to maintain that energy regen. That is bad in and of itself, because it interrupts the flow of the game for no good reason, but it's especially bad in fights. When I'm fighting, I have other things to worry about than whether a little icon in the corner of my screen has disappeared. Killing grineers is fun, watching a little icon is not. Yet that's exactly what I'm now required to do if I want to continue killing, otherwise I find myself short on energy and forced to retreat to refill in safety. The game now requires more 'skill', if you want to call it that, but that's not a good thing. I play Warframe to unwind, not to get stressed out. If I wanted to spend my time on the edge of my seat watching cooldowns like a hawk, I'd play Dota 2.

 

I feel that every single terrible design decision made in PoE boils down to DE's failure to understand the two above points. Thank you for reading.

Edited October 17, 2017 by SordidDreams

[Mewvg2]

I'd rephrase the second point as Warframe is a power fantasy game, not exactly a challenging hardcore experience. If you want the challenge turned up to eleven, you can easily remove power from your character (ie uninstalling mods, using basic weapons).

[LordSajet]

5 minutes ago, SordidDreams said:

I feel a lot of the changes in PoE are ultimately due to DE not understanding some key concepts about Warframe and its players. I'm going to try to explain them:

 

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS. Simple as that. If anything, this update should have removed operators from the game, not shoved them down our throats even more. The Eidolon fight mechanics and the changes to Focus are very clearly designed to motivate players to use the operator, and by "motivate" I of course mean "force". Nobody plays operators because they enjoy it, they do it only for the shortest amount of time required. Why do you think the SD meta for the Eidolon fight spread so quickly? Because nobody wants to play operators. The fight is not fun, it's a tedious chore, an obstacle on the path to rewards. Same thing with Focus. Need energy? Even die-hard defenders of the new system tell everyone to just press 5, ctrl+space, 5, i.e. spend as little time in operator mode as possible. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody. Wants. To. Play. Operator.

 

WARFRAME IS AN EASY CASUAL GAME FOR CASUALS. This is equally as important as the above, and it directly relates to the changes to Zenurik as well as the mechanics of the Eidolon fight. Previously I could have constant passive energy regen, which was great. I could run around spamming my abilities and slaughtering hordes of enemies with barely any effort. It was fantastic fun. Now I have to perform some convoluted button press combo every thirty seconds to maintain that energy regen. That is bad in and of itself, but it's especially bad in fights. When I'm fighting, I have other things to worry about than whether a little icon in the corner of my screen has disappeared. Killing grineers is fun, watching a little icon is not. Yet that's exactly what I'm now required to do if I want to continue killing, otherwise I find myself short on energy and forced to retreat to refill in safety. The game now requires more 'skill', if you want to call it that, but that's not a good thing. I play Warframe to unwind, not to get stressed out. If I wanted to spend my time on the edge of my seat watching cooldowns like a hawk, I'd play Dota 2.

 

I feel that every single terrible design decision made in PoE boils down to DE's failure to understand the two above points. Thank you for reading.

I agree completely with both points, which I feel boils down down to one thing : no more operator . Please. 

[BlackCoMerc]

Agreed with the operator part. Its nearly universally loathed. I mean, people were willing to run 4x SHIELD DISRUPTION on a map full of armored enemies just to get around having to use it.

My god, that should be all you need tomknow about Operators and how much people dont like  them.

[SordidDreams]

13 minutes ago, Mewvg2 said:

I'd rephrase the second point as Warframe is a power fantasy game, not exactly a challenging hardcore experience. If you want the challenge turned up to eleven, you can easily remove power from your character (ie uninstalling mods, using basic weapons).

True, and yes, that's also a good way to phrase it.

I'd go even further and say that if I wanted a hardcore experience, I'd play Dark Souls or Bloodborne. (As indeed I have done for thousands of hours.) Those are games that provide a meaningful challenge in fights against AI enemies due to the fact that 100% of the incoming damage can be avoided. They are fundamentally skill-based games. Yes, stats help a lot, but they're not necessary for victory. Even the hardest boss fight is winnable with a level 1 character using nothing but fists... if you have the skill. WF isn't like that, in WF there's unavoidable damage, and if you don't have the stats for a particular fight, you simply cannot win it. WF is a stat-based game where progression is gated by time spent playing (= ranks and mods and equipment obtained, all of which increase player power) rather than by skill. Yes, you can make the game harder by limiting your own equipment, but only up to a point, beyond which it just becomes unwinnable. Not a good thing if the point of the game is challenge. But of course in WF it's not.

The point of WF is getting overpowered. Removing 'OP' stuff and requiring 'skill' defeats the point, because finding and acquiring the OP stuff is exactly where the fun in WF comes from. It doesn't come from overcoming challenges with skill, it comes from farming up levels and weapons and mods and then creaming everybody in your path with them.

Edited October 17, 2017 by SordidDreams

[Mortadele]

+1000000000 all is said , realy who love play this creeple children , they just whant sell cosmetics for operator and some neew stuff; , the veterans have already so mutch of all ,they no more need to buy plat but with this new forced gameplay how boy veterans have to buy buy buy new things , now you know why this unwhanted concept is there , i have spend whay more 500dolls on this game but after that poe joke i promise DE you no more see my money !

Edited October 18, 2017 by [DE]Helen
Language

[Mattoropael]

Operator was fine in Focus 1.0 before TWW happened.

It was a backdrop, it wasn't a necessary component to any mission you play, and only stood to enhance the base Warframe experience of, you know, WARFRAMES.

Now instead of actually making Warframes fun again, all Focus 2.0 did was to take away that enhancement to Warframes just to shove more Operator "gameplay" down our throats. Disgusting.

[djtotato]

let's backtrack to TWW how awful their operator platform game was. and operator keeps getting more roles. wonder if they gonna change the game title.

[SordidDreams]

11 minutes ago, Mattoropael said:

Operator was fine in Focus 1.0 before TWW happened.

It was a backdrop, it wasn't a necessary component to any mission you play, and only stood to enhance the base Warframe experience of, you know, WARFRAMES.

Now instead of actually making Warframes fun again, all Focus 2.0 did was to take away that enhancement to Warframes just to shove more Operator "gameplay" down our throats. Disgusting.

That's exactly what it should have been from both gameplay and lore perspectives. Coming out of your warframe as an invincible levitating ghost and blasting everything with raw void energy is perfectly in line with the "void demons" description of the tenno, and it's a great gameplay element too. An extremely powerful ability with a long cooldown, a game design classic. The only thing it needed was a buff to actually make it as powerful as the cooldown and background lore would warrant, to give us a reason to use it for the active ability rather than just to turn on the passive buff.

What did we get instead? Squishy teenagers with puny little hand lasers that are so unfun to play that we only ever do it if literally forced to by enemies that are completely immune to anything and everything else.

Edited October 17, 2017 by SordidDreams

[-Temp0-]

29 minutes ago, LordSajet said:

I agree completely with both points, which I feel boils down down to one thing : no more operator . Please. 

I think DE wants money just so we can have them out of the game that was a plan all along. Donate so we can not play as operators.

[TheSketchDevice]

I respect what you're saying but you don't speak for everyone.

[SordidDreams]

10 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

I think DE wants money just so we can have them out of the game that was a plan all along. Donate so we can not play as operators.

Hm, a crowdfunding campaign that will be paid out to DE when they remove operator and implement passive energy regen and universal vacuum? Where do I donate?

[Aekhon]

1 hour ago, SordidDreams said:

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS.

I do, so don't presume to speak for all players when you don't, thank you very much.  I really like the direction they're taking the game with the dual focus between warframe and operator.

 

[Doctor_Grayfield]

1 minute ago, Aekhon said:

I do, so don't presume to speak for all players when you don't, thank you very much.  I really like the direction they're taking the game with the dual focus between warframe and operator.

 

I thought I was alone.  I'm not.  Thanks. 

[SordidDreams]

I blame Stockholm Syndrome.

[MayssonFairbanks]

I too was fine with Focus 1.0, in fact I kind of liked the idea of a dude sitting in his futuristic chair, remotely piloting warframes from the safety of his spaceship, and occasionnally bursting with psychic powers. I actually made way more sense than what we have now: a 15 year old kid who roams plains at night.

Focus 2.0 and Operator "warrior mode" or whatever it's called, both these features have certainly some potential, but clearly needs A LOT of work.

Compared to the rest of the game, operators feel so limited and so weak. like playing an unranked warframe without any mods nor abilities. Tbf at the moment, comparing warframes with operators is like comparing Warframe with Destiny. By pressing 5 players can instantly go from cool, fast-paced badassery, to slow, methodical, squishy, sluggish crap. At least in Destiny players actually have some sense of power, which is not the case with Operators.

PS: I heard that if players are willing to invest about 2 years as well as 7 billions Focus points then Operator can become somewhat good at killing one single monster (eidolons). C/D ?

Edited October 17, 2017 by MayssonFairbanks

[TankHunter678]

I would rather hit the 5 button to swap from frame abilities to operator based abilities but still be in my frame. I would not mind hitting that button and having my warframe activate the AMP to fire the beam off at enemies.

[Awazx]

I'm afraid the Warframe we knew is dead.

[ENGINEEEEER]

I too like playing the operator and the lore implications.

However, if operators are going to be a key feature, focus needs to be much more common so we can unbind those passive nodes and make operators decent. 

[SordidDreams]

54 minutes ago, MayssonFairbanks said:

Focus 2.0 and Operator "warrior mode" or whatever it's called, both these features have certainly some potential, but clearly needs A LOT of work.

Compared to the rest of the game, operators feel so limited and so weak. like playing an unranked warframe without any mods nor abilities. Tbf at the moment, comparing warframes with operators is like comparing Warframe with Destiny. By pressing 5 players can instantly go from cool, fast-paced badassery, to slow, methodical, squishy, sluggish crap. At least in Destiny players actually have some sense of power, which is not the case with Operators.

The massive, elephant-in-the-room problem with operators is that you're switching characters. Focus 1.0 didn't have this problem, the floating ghost thing was not a character switch despite its visual presentation, mechanically it was just a powerful attack with a long cooldown. Post-TWW operators have the same problem as Equinox, you can only play one mode at a time, warframe or operator, and only one of them is any good. There's no way around that, one of them is always going to be more fun than the other, and playing the worse one will then inevitably feel like a chore. Except the game doesn't force you to play female Equinox, it does force you to play operator. Making the operator more powerful and more fun than the frame won't solve the problem, it'll just reverse the roles. You'll still end up wanting to play the fun mode all the time and resenting elements of the game that force you to play the other mode. It's a fundamentally ill-conceived idea that should never have been implemented.

And don't even get me started on the fact that switching between two characters with different skills was supposed to be Equinox' unique gimmick. Now everyone is Equinox. And with Zenurik energy bubble giving energy to team mates, everyone is Trinity too.

[Volinus7]

3 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

WARFRAME IS AN EASY CASUAL GAME FOR CASUALS. This is equally as important as the above, and it directly relates to the changes to Zenurik as well as the mechanics of the Eidolon fight. Previously I could have constant passive energy regen, which was great. I could run around spamming my abilities and slaughtering hordes of enemies with barely any effort. It was fantastic fun. Now I have to perform some convoluted button press combo every thirty seconds to maintain that energy regen. That is bad in and of itself, because it interrupts the flow of the game for no good reason, but it's especially bad in fights. When I'm fighting, I have other things to worry about than whether a little icon in the corner of my screen has disappeared. Killing grineers is fun, watching a little icon is not. Yet that's exactly what I'm now required to do if I want to continue killing, otherwise I find myself short on energy and forced to retreat to refill in safety. The game now requires more 'skill', if you want to call it that, but that's not a good thing. I play Warframe to unwind, not to get stressed out. If I wanted to spend my time on the edge of my seat watching cooldowns like a hawk, I'd play Dota 2.

This is Warframe exploits your dopamine system by reward sensitization. You eliminate a lot of mob enemies again and again, tedious chore right?

I think you should play Cookieclicker instead of Dota2 so you can click non stop.

DE doesn't care about ruining your "fun", they need operator to be a new way to induce frustration for microtransaction, and they're confident that your sunk cost fallacy will stop you from leaving WF anyway. 

Warframe is a game that maximizes your addictive tendency. If you stop to analyze or think about what's wrong with it, you'll suddenly become sober. 

There should be a warning on Warframe front page "There's no balance waiting at the end of your thousand hours grinding" lol.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Volinus7

[Operator_of_the_Lotus]

You don't speak for the entire community OP. like not one single bit. I love the operator and think it is a great addition to the game.

[Vicious_Raptor]

20 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

I feel a lot of the changes in PoE are ultimately due to DE not understanding some key concepts about Warframe and its players. I'm going to try to explain them:

 

WE DON'T WANT TO PLAY OPERATORS. Simple as that. If anything, this update should have removed operators from the game, not shoved them down our throats even more. The Eidolon fight mechanics and the changes to Focus are very clearly designed to motivate players to use the operator, and by "motivate" I of course mean "force". Nobody plays operators because they enjoy it, they do it only for the shortest amount of time required. Why do you think the SD meta for the Eidolon fight spread so quickly? Because nobody wants to play operators. The fight is not fun, it's a tedious chore, an obstacle on the path to rewards. Is anybody going to continue playing it once they have all the rewards, just for the enjoyment of it? I seriously doubt it. Same thing with Focus. Need energy? Even die-hard defenders of the new system tell everyone to just press 5, ctrl+space, 5, i.e. spend as little time in operator mode as possible. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody wants to play operator. Nobody. Wants. To. Play. Operator.

I disagree, I loved the Operator thing ever since The Second Dream and through The War Within, I'm happy with it being expanded beyond the "wait 5 mins then pop it out for half a second and forget it exists" thing that's been going on for it ever since, few exceptions aside (like Kuva farm). Saying that YOU don't like it is very different from claiming nobody does, the first being an expression of your personal tastes (which you have a right to express, whatever it might be), the latter being an exhaggerated and ultimately false assumption. 

 

20 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

WARFRAME IS AN EASY CASUAL GAME FOR CASUALS. This is equally as important as the above, and it directly relates to the changes to Zenurik as well as the mechanics of the Eidolon fight. Previously I could have constant passive energy regen, which was great. I could run around spamming my abilities and slaughtering hordes of enemies with barely any effort. It was fantastic fun. Now I have to perform some convoluted button press combo every thirty seconds to maintain that energy regen. That is bad in and of itself, because it interrupts the flow of the game for no good reason, but it's especially bad in fights. When I'm fighting, I have other things to worry about than whether a little icon in the corner of my screen has disappeared. Killing grineers is fun, watching a little icon is not. Yet that's exactly what I'm now required to do if I want to continue killing, otherwise I find myself short on energy and forced to retreat to refill in safety. The game now requires more 'skill', if you want to call it that, but that's not a good thing. I play Warframe to unwind, not to get stressed out. If I wanted to spend my time on the edge of my seat watching cooldowns like a hawk, I'd play Dota 2.

 

I feel that every single terrible design decision made in PoE boils down to DE's failure to understand the two above points. Thank you for reading.

Again, I disagree.  About the Zenurik thing well it pretty much made Energy restores and Energy replenishing abilities and mods pointless, it was simply broken.  Warframe is a game meant for everyone, it's got content for casuals as well as challenge for more hardcore players. None of it is shoved down your throat, regardless. You are not forced to play Operator, nor to kill a single Teralyst.. wanna know why? Everything the Quills have to offer is Operator weapons and armor. Why do you care if you hate it that much? Just leave it.


Devs make their design choices based on their plan, it's the Archwing scenario all over again: people crying about it being in the game but the thing is, it's their game, not yours, and believe it or not it's become this successful even without you making decisions about what's terrible and what's not.

Edited October 17, 2017 by Vicious_Raptor
typos

[Rinslaughter]

18 minutes ago, CmdrVixen said:

You don't speak for the entire community OP. like not one single bit. I love the operator and think it is a great addition to the game.

I would like nothing more than for the operator to go back into hyper sleep & to be jettison into the void. DE is killing WARFRAME by shoehorning crap gameplay & gun(lol)play on us via the operator. 

[R34LM]

I had predicted Focus 2.0 to make the current gimmick even more of a worse gimmick. Now, instead of just being used for Kuva Siphons, Operators usefulness really only extends to how well they do against an Eidolon. Outside of that, what do you get? The same as before: an operator, who is still squishy and has abilities that are more or less replaced by choosing a specific frame. Even at the end of the cruel amount of grind to level up way-bounds and amps, what do you get? Stuff that can only get you past sortie 1. Warframes and weapons have been doing just fine for the longest time; operators are a silly anecdote to combat diversion; they were better off being passive buffs to what was already working.

Not to mention, the Zenurik energy regen is annoying to work with. I understand that they wanted it to be more active, but now they just made it tedious, in my opinion. Having to press 5, ctrl space, then 5 again every 30 seconds is just numbing and unnecessary. Furthermore, people who got to used to Shadow Step (I'm lucky I moved on to something else) now get nothing. I mean, yeah it really had to go, but it got the same treatment as Tonkor, Synoid Gammacor and Acrid; they had it as it was for way too long, got used to it and now it's been taken away.

Look, I enjoy everything else about this update, from the plains, Gara, and all that stuff. But Focus 2.0 was just sad.